| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Laurent" |
| Date: |
17 Jan 2008 07:46:07 AM |
| Object: |
Thought and Determinism |
Contemporary Quantum Field Theory supports the idea that the ontology
is in the process which matter undergoes as it fluctuates in and out
of 'nothingness'. Classical relativistic physics is a description of
what the world appears to be, while Quantum Field Theory is a
description of what the world is.
Schroedinger's equation develops in a sea of real uncertainties
(background radiation). As reality unfolds, none of its possible
outcomes exist prior to the wave packet collapse. As the
Schroedinger's wave evolves, the system will have some tendencies or
propensities that depend on the system's properties in spacetime.
There will always be some preferred outcomes whose probabilities are
going to be much higher than those of other outcomes which are not as
well related to the system.
GTR is an idealization of reality, a method, a mathematicians trick to
eliminate all local degrees of freedom (uncertainty). Smooth out
spacetime and you get theories like Relativity to work. But there
really is a background of cosmic microwave radiation (CMBR) without
which there would be no material space.
Quantum particles are both, particle and wave at the same time. After
a particle condenses it still remains wave and particle, even after
observed and measured. Each object, regardless of size, is accompanied
by its own particular matter wave, as Louis de Broglie figured out.
And because all objects are wave and particle at the same time, they
are always in a state of motion. This is why we need to take
measurements down to three or more decimal places in order to stay
accurate. Even though indeterminism fades away as objects become
larger in size, there is always an amount of uncertainty left which
allows for some degree of freedom.
Quantum mechanical process is indeterminate going forwards or
backwards. Reality (like thought), is about becoming, it is process,
and this process is totally dependent on the uncertainty in the
movement of quanta. Uncertainty is what causes activity. It is due to
the natural indeterminism of quanta that the universe exists, you take
the uncertainty away and it will stop moving. Uncertainty is inherent
to the evolutive process. If you don't allow for indeterminism in
Nature then you must also reject Darwin and the evolution of species.
Aside from the reality of quantum uncertainty and the fact that sub-
atomic processes are not time-reversible in self-organized matter, as
proven by Nobel prize winner, Ilya Prigogine, thought itself may also
be largely ruled by quantum mechanisms, hence, indeterminism, or...
free will. The motions of all objects in spacetime, the size of an
atom and bigger, follow semi-deterministic laws. Everything in our
normally perceived reality follows the rules of motion as described by
Classical Physics and Relativity, but our thoughts may follow the laws
of quantum indeterminism. Thoughts as well as sub-atomic particles
have the potential to follow several different paths. A determination
of the path a thought may follow depends on what we focus our
attention on. In other words, thoughts, like sub-atomic particles,
happen as we observe and perceive them.
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| User: "Miller" |
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| Title: Re: Thought and Determinism |
17 Jan 2008 09:24:31 AM |
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"Laurent" <cyberdyno@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bb8527b9-9fb4-4fe3-9bed-97e61b511ee0@ A determination
of the path a thought may follow depends on what we focus our
attention on. In other words, thoughts, like sub-atomic particles,
happen as we observe and perceive them.
Interesting bit about the roll of quantum theory explaining the universe's
indetermination and all that. Not sure if there is a direct connection to
free-will and thought, though that too is an interesting observation
I think your last sentence stands by itself without the forced quantum
physics parallel. Certainly a thought is nothing unless it is perceived as
a thought. I must be conscious of something in order for there to be
consciousness.
Regards, Scott
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| User: "dlzc" |
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| Title: Re: Thought and Determinism |
17 Jan 2008 10:31:05 AM |
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Dear Laurent:
On Jan 17, 6:46=A0am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:
Contemporary Quantum Field Theory supports the idea that
the ontology is in the process which matter undergoes as
it fluctuates in and out of 'nothingness'. Classical
relativistic physics is a description of what the world
appears to be, while Quantum Field Theory is a
description of what the world is.
If it is what we measure, both theories describe "what is".
Schroedinger's equation develops in a sea of real
uncertainties (background radiation). As reality unfolds,
none of its possible outcomes exist prior to the wave
packet collapse.
No, *all* of its possible outcomes exist, prior to collapse.
As the Schroedinger's wave evolves, the
system will have some tendencies or propensities that
depend on the system's properties in spacetime. There
will always be some preferred outcomes whose
probabilities are going to be much higher than those of
other outcomes which are not as well related to the
system.
GTR is an idealization of reality, a method, a
mathematicians trick to eliminate all local degrees of
freedom (uncertainty).
QFT *also* is a "mathematicians trick" with the same end in mind.
Smooth out spacetime and you get theories like
Relativity to work. But there really is a background
of cosmic microwave radiation (CMBR) without
which there would be no material space.
Bad guess. It is a simple effort to construct a Faraday cage, and
CMBR does not exist inside there, which can be experimentally
verified. Yet spacetime is continuous and unsurprising.
Quantum particles are both, particle and wave at the
same time.
Just all possibilities exist for Schroedinger... until observation.
After a particle condenses it still remains wave and
particle, even after observed and measured. Each
object, regardless of size, is accompanied by its own
particular matter wave, as Louis de Broglie figured out.
And because all objects are wave and particle at the
same time, they are always in a state of motion.
Or, the "particleness" and "waveness" are simply observables impressed
on the poor beastie by scientists.
This is why we need to take measurements down to three
or more decimal places in order to stay accurate.
"three or four"... snicker.
Even though indeterminism fades away as objects become
larger in size, there is always an amount of
uncertainty left which allows for some degree of
freedom.
Quantum mechanical process is indeterminate going
forwards or backwards. Reality (like thought), is
about becoming, it is process, and this process is
totally dependent on the uncertainty in the movement
of quanta. Uncertainty is what causes activity.
Conservation laws are all about activity. Activity is continuous, not
quantum. Quantum is "teleportation".
It is due to the natural indeterminism of quanta
that the universe exists, you take the uncertainty
away and it will stop moving.
Are you sure? ;>)
Uncertainty is inherent to the evolutive process. If
you don't allow for indeterminism in Nature then you
must also reject Darwin and the evolution of species.
Sciemce, *all* science, is about limtiing / eliminating uncertainty.
You cannot find "free will" in uncertainty.
David A. Smith
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Thought and Determinism |
17 Jan 2008 10:42:53 AM |
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Laurent wrote:
Contemporary Quantum Field Theory supports the idea that the ontology
is in the process which matter undergoes as it fluctuates in and out
of 'nothingness'.
[snip crap]
Really? With what textbook or refereed literature did you wipe yor
beshitted *****?
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
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| User: "Laurent" |
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| Title: Re: Thought and Determinism |
17 Jan 2008 12:18:54 PM |
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On Jan 17, 11:42 am, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
Laurent wrote:
Contemporary Quantum Field Theory supports the idea that the ontology
is in the process which matter undergoes as it fluctuates in and out
of 'nothingness'.
[snip crap]
Really? With what textbook or refereed literature did you wipe yor
beshitted *****?
--
Uncle Alhttp://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
See Lee Smolin to start.
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