| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Don1" |
| Date: |
10 Feb 2006 07:10:43 AM |
| Object: |
Time and entropy |
What is the relationship between time and entropy?
Why is entropy considered as a running down; toward a heat death of the
energy contained in the sun, stars, and planets?
Why can't energy be increasing?
Don
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| User: "Two" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
18 Feb 2006 08:47:37 PM |
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"Don1" <dcshead@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1139577043.244539.97550@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
What is the relationship between time and entropy?
The local universe is expanding at the speed of light, FAPP. It is
impossible for something to exceed (go faster than) the rate at which space
is being created. All things are involved in this expansion but are
'measured' locally without consulting the rate of change. It's called Time's
Arrow.
Imagine seeing the local universe from a position which saw all things
happening in the context of expansion; entropy as we consider it would not
be relevant.
Never mind the breaking glass returning to its original state metaphors. Way
too macro to be pertinent.
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| User: "Allan Murray" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
10 Feb 2006 11:08:08 PM |
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Because:
"Energy spontaneously tends to flow only from being concentrated in one
place
to becoming diffused or dispersed and spread out."
See Prof. Frank Lambert's website for a good (modern) explanation
www.entropysite.com
Allan Murray
www.trivialanomaly.com
"Don1" <dcshead@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1139577043.244539.97550@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
What is the relationship between time and entropy?
Why is entropy considered as a running down; toward a heat death of the
energy contained in the sun, stars, and planets?
Why can't energy be increasing?
Don
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
10 Feb 2006 08:33:14 AM |
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Don1 wrote:
What is the relationship between time and entropy?
Why is entropy considered as a running down; toward a heat death of the
energy contained in the sun, stars, and planets?
Why can't energy be increasing?
The total mass-energy of the universe was fixed in the big bang.
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| User: "Don1" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
10 Feb 2006 12:58:49 PM |
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Sam Wormley wrote:
Don1 wrote:
What is the relationship between time and entropy?
Why is entropy considered as a running down; toward a heat death of the
energy contained in the sun, stars, and planets?
Why can't energy be increasing?
The total mass-energy of the universe was fixed in the big bang.
What's unfixing it? Why can't entropy remain the same, or be decreasing?
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
10 Feb 2006 04:28:04 PM |
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Don1 wrote:
Sam Wormley wrote:
The total mass-energy of the universe was fixed in the big bang.
What's unfixing it? Why can't entropy remain the same, or be decreasing?
Entropy is a measure of the disorder of a system and is defined
by equations in this link
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Entropy.html
The mass-energy of a system can remain constant while
the entropy can change.
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| User: "Two" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
18 Feb 2006 08:49:01 PM |
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"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:Ur8Hf.767758$_o.193853@attbi_s71...
Entropy is a measure of the disorder of a system [...]
Keep in mind the necessary artificiality of the 'system' to make the
equations work.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
19 Feb 2006 02:23:47 AM |
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Don1 wrote:
What is the relationship between time and entropy?
entropy is a statistical relatinoship that mathematicians use in
enthalpy tables, to make it appear that they have brains
more advanced that Micheal Jackson's pet
stage-hand named Tahilam The Swahilan.
Why is entropy considered as a running down; toward a heat death of the
energy contained in the sun, stars, and planets?
It is considered a running down, because psychologists
do not have the mental inspiration or scientific wherewithal
to do any type of lunch experiments other than
rat experiments on Mount Kilimanjaro.
Why can't energy be increasing?
Don
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
10 Feb 2006 01:05:15 PM |
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Don1 wrote:
What is the relationship between time and entropy?
There isn't a fixed one, other than as time increases, then the *total*
entropy of the universe increases.
Why is entropy considered as a running down; toward a heat death of the
energy contained in the sun, stars, and planets?
Heat death is not the *lowering* of energy, it's the homogenizing of
energy. The only reason we can do anything at all (motors, chemistry,
biology) is that energy is more concentrated in some places than in
others. It's the controlled gating of that energy from concentrated
spots to less concentrated spots that results in work, heat flow,
chemical processes.
Why can't energy be increasing?
I suppose it could be, but it doesn't seem to be, experimentally.
That's why we took note of energy as an interesting quantity that seems
to remain constant, and why we guessed that it is conserved.
Don
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| User: "Don1" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
10 Feb 2006 02:42:16 PM |
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PD wrote:
Don1 wrote:
What is the relationship between time and entropy?
There isn't a fixed one, other than as time increases, then the *total*
entropy of the universe increases.
Why is entropy considered as a running down; toward a heat death of the
energy contained in the sun, stars, and planets?
Heat death is not the *lowering* of energy, it's the homogenizing of
energy. The only reason we can do anything at all (motors, chemistry,
biology) is that energy is more concentrated in some places than in
others. It's the controlled gating of that energy from concentrated
spots to less concentrated spots that results in work, heat flow,
chemical processes.
Why can't energy be increasing?
I suppose it could be, but it doesn't seem to be, experimentally.
That's why we took note of energy as an interesting quantity that seems
to remain constant, and why we guessed that it is conserved.
From what I read: "Entropy is the only quantity in the physical
sciences that "picks" a particular direction for time, sometimes called
an arrow of time."
I say that all planets, suns and stars are gaining energy, and will
continue to do so as long as gravitation lasts.
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| User: "jonathan" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
10 Feb 2006 05:08:08 PM |
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"Don1" <dcshead@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1139604136.093020.50160@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
PD wrote:
Don1 wrote:
What is the relationship between time and entropy?
There isn't a fixed one, other than as time increases, then the *total*
entropy of the universe increases.
Why is entropy considered as a running down; toward a heat death of
the
energy contained in the sun, stars, and planets?
Heat death is not the *lowering* of energy, it's the homogenizing of
energy. The only reason we can do anything at all (motors, chemistry,
biology) is that energy is more concentrated in some places than in
others. It's the controlled gating of that energy from concentrated
spots to less concentrated spots that results in work, heat flow,
chemical processes.
Why can't energy be increasing?
I suppose it could be, but it doesn't seem to be, experimentally.
That's why we took note of energy as an interesting quantity that seems
to remain constant, and why we guessed that it is conserved.
From what I read: "Entropy is the only quantity in the physical
sciences that "picks" a particular direction for time, sometimes called
an arrow of time."
I say that all planets, suns and stars are gaining energy, and will
continue to do so as long as gravitation lasts.
Don't listen to these guys, they are hopelessly indoctrinated in
the simplistic and conventional views that limit them to a
high school level of understanding reality. I bet they still
think gravity always attracts. I bet they still think that quantifying
physical obects, things, is the path to deriving fundamental law.
I bet they haven't even heard of the Fourth Law of Thermodynamics.
Or that dark energy and matter evolved at almost the same time
humanity did. How could of life and a new form of energy
evolve at the same time? What is the relationship between
the two they might ask? No, they won't.
They live in a mechanical universe where all is nice and neat.
Simple equations for simple particles.
Religiously obeying all axioms as if they were the word of God,
unquestionable, and all knowing. The 'alt' in the ng name lies, as
the regs seem unalterable and uninterested in anything new.
They'll blast anyone that doesn't conform without even reading a
paragraph. They'll demand that anything they haven't heard of is
bull without even knowing the first thing about it.
You are asking the religious to betray their faith.
A nice intro, in plain English, in the latest ideas of entropy
in here.
Self-Organization & Entropy - The Terrible Twins
http://www.calresco.org/extropy.htm
Jonathan
"If we define religion to be a system of thought which contains an element
of
faith, then Gödel has taught us that not only is mathematics a religion
but it is the only religion capable of proving itself to be one."
........John Barrow
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/jdb34/jdbcv.html
s
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| User: "Allan Murray" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
10 Feb 2006 09:57:21 PM |
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It wasn't my high school teaching (or university, that matter)
that made me beleive that gravity (only) attracts. I don't know what
planet you are living on. But it (so far) seems to be an experimentally
observable fact.
Allan Murray
www.trivialanomaly.com
Don't listen to these guys, they are hopelessly indoctrinated in
the simplistic and conventional views that limit them to a
high school level of understanding reality. I bet they still
think gravity always attracts. ?????????????????????
I bet they still think that quantifying
physical obects, things, is the path to deriving fundamental law.
I bet they haven't even heard of the Fourth Law of Thermodynamics.
Or that dark energy and matter evolved at almost the same time
humanity did. How could of life and a new form of energy
evolve at the same time? What is the relationship between
the two they might ask? No, they won't.
They live in a mechanical universe where all is nice and neat.
Simple equations for simple particles.
Religiously obeying all axioms as if they were the word of God,
unquestionable, and all knowing. The 'alt' in the ng name lies, as
the regs seem unalterable and uninterested in anything new.
They'll blast anyone that doesn't conform without even reading a
paragraph. They'll demand that anything they haven't heard of is
bull without even knowing the first thing about it.
You are asking the religious to betray their faith.
A nice intro, in plain English, in the latest ideas of entropy
in here.
Self-Organization & Entropy - The Terrible Twins
http://www.calresco.org/extropy.htm
Jonathan
"If we define religion to be a system of thought which contains an element
of
faith, then Gödel has taught us that not only is mathematics a religion
but it is the only religion capable of proving itself to be one."
........John Barrow
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/jdb34/jdbcv.html
s
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| User: "jonathan" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
11 Feb 2006 08:49:12 AM |
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"Allan Murray" <allan.murray@trivialanomaly.com> wrote in message
news:dsjn9l$l4b$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
It wasn't my high school teaching (or university, that matter)
that made me beleive that gravity (only) attracts. I don't know what
planet you are living on. But it (so far) seems to be an experimentally
observable fact.
In the last five or ten years all that we thought we knew has
been thown into question. There has never been a more
exciting time for learning than right now. That is, of
course, for those with open minds. You have to be
willing to accept the fact that all we've been taught
is either backwards, wrong or at best, incomplete.
And be willing to start over from scratch.
A Quintessential Introduction to Dark Energy
Paul J. Steinhardt
Department of Physics, Princeton University
"Most of the energy in the universe is not "matter." For its first 300
years, physics has focused on the properties of matter and radiation,
including dark matter. Now we know that they represent less than 30%
of the composition of the universe. The rest consists of
something we know virtually nothing about."
"Most of the energy in the universe is not gravitationally attractive.
We are probably the last generation to have been taught that
"gravity always attracts," a notion which has been presented as a
basic fact of nature for hundreds of years. We are now aware that
gravity can repel, as well. Of course, the possibility of self-repulsive
forms of energy was there in Einstein's general theory of
relativity since its inception, but this point was never generally
appreciated until now. We must rewrite the textbooks to explain
that the gravitationally self-attracting matter with which we are familiar
is the minority in the universe today and for the indefinite future."
http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~steinh/steinhardt.pdf
http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~steinh/
Allan Murray
www.trivialanomaly.com
Don't listen to these guys, they are hopelessly indoctrinated in
the simplistic and conventional views that limit them to a
high school level of understanding reality. I bet they still
think gravity always attracts. ?????????????????????
I bet they still think that quantifying
physical obects, things, is the path to deriving fundamental law.
I bet they haven't even heard of the Fourth Law of Thermodynamics.
Or that dark energy and matter evolved at almost the same time
humanity did. How could of life and a new form of energy
evolve at the same time? What is the relationship between
the two they might ask? No, they won't.
They live in a mechanical universe where all is nice and neat.
Simple equations for simple particles.
Religiously obeying all axioms as if they were the word of God,
unquestionable, and all knowing. The 'alt' in the ng name lies, as
the regs seem unalterable and uninterested in anything new.
They'll blast anyone that doesn't conform without even reading a
paragraph. They'll demand that anything they haven't heard of is
bull without even knowing the first thing about it.
You are asking the religious to betray their faith.
A nice intro, in plain English, in the latest ideas of entropy
in here.
Self-Organization & Entropy - The Terrible Twins
http://www.calresco.org/extropy.htm
Jonathan
"If we define religion to be a system of thought which contains an
element
of
faith, then Gödel has taught us that not only is mathematics a religion
but it is the only religion capable of proving itself to be one."
........John Barrow
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/jdb34/jdbcv.html
s
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| User: "Steve Pope" |
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| Title: Re: Time and entropy |
10 Feb 2006 07:13:13 PM |
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Don1 <dcshead@charter.net> wrote:
I say that all planets, suns and stars are gaining energy, and will
continue to do so as long as gravitation lasts.
They're certainly gaining potential energy since the universe
is expanding. I believe total mass plus energy is conserved --
something to do with the universe cooling.
Steve
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