Science > Physics > true theory of Superconductivity; Classical physics or Quantum phenomenon??
| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Archimedes Plutonium" |
| Date: |
03 Oct 2003 11:31:58 AM |
| Object: |
true theory of Superconductivity; Classical physics or Quantum phenomenon?? |
this is an old post of mine:
*** begin old post ***
From: (Archimedes Plutonium)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.particle,sci.physics.electromag,sci.chem.analytical
Subject: #2 Formula for the highest temperature superconductor
Date: 23 Jan 1999 07:26:32 GMT
Organization: formula for superconductivity temperatures
Lines: 77
Distribution: world
Message-ID: (78btj8$1vq$1@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
In article (789cik$aqs$1@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
(Archimedes Plutonium) writes:
I suspect that a Fusion Barrier Law would prohibit an infinity of
superconductivity temperatures and would dictate a upper limit, such as
perhaps 155K.
I am wrong. It is chemical bonding strengths that prohibits an
infinity range of superconductivity temperatures.
Already in my mind I am envisioning a general formula. This research
reminds me of the historic Balmer then Rydberg and the other spectral
line physicists that gave the birth of quantum mechanics.
A formula of first finding out what the spacings of the plane
Euclidean geometry stacks are in the superconductors. Call it the
diffraction-grating spaces. To decompose the photons into neutrinos.
The diffraction grating spaces imply a distance for which photons
are
decomposed into neutrinos.
Again, using known superconductors, find out another distance spacing,
precisely the spacings of these plane Euclidean geometry stacks of
superconductors. Call it the parallel-plate-capacitors spacings.
The parallel-plate-capacitor spaces imply a distance for which
neutrinos are a stored standing wave within the material.
Tabulate many of the high temperature superconductors of these
distance spacings as well as their superconductivity transition
temperatures/ pressures. I suspect that temperature and pressure can
be
seen as one variable where a material's temperature can be raised if
pressure is applied.
Now apply some chemistry, or physical chemistry. Find the bonding
numerical strength correlated with the temperature/pressure to achieve
the superconductivity state. That is find the bond strength of each of
the atoms in materials such as Ba-Y-Cu-F-O is Tc at 155K. The key to
finding, if one exists, materials of a higher temperature
superconductor is whether the same geometry can be fabricated with
atoms of a stronger bond than Ba-Y-Cu-F-O. Fluorine atoms on the
right-side of the periodic table forms very strong bonds as well as
the
base atoms on the left-side of the periodic table. What we are looking
for, provided my theory is correct in whole or in part, is for the
strongest bonds of compounds which can achieve the geometry to
decompose photons into neutrinos and storage them.
Once the above is derived. Then one can look for *stronger chemical
bonds* so as to allow for an increase in superconductivity
temperature.
That is, the existence of a higher temperature superconductor beyond
155K.
In this theory of mine, the superconductivity state is achieved as a
purely geometrical condition. If one gets a material as near to
perfect
plane Euclidean geometry stacks (or sheets) that act as diffraction
plus capacitors of the photons. Turning the photons into neutrinos,
then the superconductivity state is achieved. The material that has
the
strongest chemical bonds and achieves all of the conditions for
superconductivity is the material with the highest temperature
superconductivity. If a material is not strong enough in its bonds,
then colder temperature or more pressure is needed in order to achieve
that near perfect geometry.
So, above, already we can start to derive a formula for the
superconductivity state and to apply that formula in search of higher
temperature superconductors.
I am not directly involved in superconductivity experimentation. But
it is my guess that the 155K superconductor of Ba-Y-Cu-F-O distance
spacings has been thoroughly researched and known.
Chemical bonding strengths, not the Fusion Barrier Law, implies that
the range of superconductivity temperatures is bounded. My guess is
that 155K is probably the limit, and if not, is close to the limit.
I need an expert superconductivity researcher to give the numbers
data of the distances I spoke of above.
*** end old post ***
I know when I have been away from a subject too long, in that I can
barely remember where I left off with the subject.
In my vagueness of memory, seems to me that I left off of the
Superconductivity theory with the firm belief that Superconductivity
was **purely** a Classical physics phenomenon and had no strange new
physics or Quantum physics involved. I cannot remember why or how I
came to that conclusion. I remember saying that it is purely Classical
physics because it was merely the application of cold temperature to
any substance to get it to Maximize both the Electropositive elements
such as Cs, Rb, Ba and to Maximize Electronegative elements such as F,
Cl, Br, I, O, S etc etc
Of course, that needed proof, Experimental proof that
Superconductivity was not a Quantum phenomenon but just a pure
Classical physics of maximizing electronegativities.
If Superconductivity were truly a new Quantum Phenomenon then my old
theory that photons turn into neutrino messengers telling the
electrons at the other end of the wire to move would still be a viable
nice theory.
But somehow when I last visited this subject, it seems to me that I
had cobbled together some sort of evidences that indicated that
Superconductivity was all just pure Classical Physics without anything
new or strange or Quantum phenomenon and that Superconductivity
derived solely out of just Maxwell's theory of EM.
Seems to me that when I last dived into Superconductivity theory that
I had it concluded that Superconductivity was just Classical Physics
stretched to the limits of Maximization in that the material were made
Maximal Electronegative combined with maximal Electropositive such
that the electrons could flow without any resistance because the pull
of the electropositive and the push of the electronegative cancelled
out all resistance.
Obviously I need to refresh myself on this theory. And as a word of
wisdom, when one can only remember something vaguely where they had
left off is a beautiful time to revisit the subject because then the
mind has been sort of "on vacation"
from that subject and is ideally prepared to see it in a new light and
make progress.
Archimedes Plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
.
|
|
| User: "Mark Fergerson" |
|
| Title: Re: true theory of Superconductivity; Classical physics or Quantumphenomenon?? |
04 Oct 2003 10:03:57 AM |
|
|
Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
this is an old post of mine:
*** begin old post ***
From: (Archimedes Plutonium)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.particle,sci.physics.electromag,sci.chem.analytical
Subject: #2 Formula for the highest temperature superconductor
Date: 23 Jan 1999 07:26:32 GMT
Organization: formula for superconductivity temperatures
Lines: 77
Distribution: world
Message-ID: (78btj8$1vq$1@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
In article (789cik$aqs$1@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
(Archimedes Plutonium) writes:
I suspect that a Fusion Barrier Law would prohibit an infinity of
superconductivity temperatures and would dictate a upper limit, such as
perhaps 155K.
I am wrong. It is chemical bonding strengths that prohibits an
infinity range of superconductivity temperatures.
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/14/5/3
Now, can you predict whether or not BECs superconduct?
Mark L. Fergerson
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Archimedes Plutonium" |
|
| Title: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
03 Oct 2003 03:12:00 PM |
|
|
Traditionally about this time of the year I take down the skylights and
re-install the pipes for the woodstoves for the wintertime and before I leave the
roofing I check to see if any rust or patches for tar-cement or tar-paint is
needed to the steel roof. Of all the roofing materials I seem to prefer steel
roofs since they are strong and long lasting and pretty to look at.
Now I ran into something while tarring spots of the steel roof. I notice if rust
appears and I put tar on that rust spot and return to that spot years later and
peel away the tar that the steel metal is as if there had never been any rust at
all. Perhaps I made a mistake in thinking that I had the same spot. So I need to
confirm this claim before I put the claim to good use.
Unsubstantiated Claim: if you have galvanized sheet metal with some rust spots
and if you coat that rusty spot with tar-cement or tar-coating and years later
peel away the tar, you will find underneath shiny steel metal with no signs of
any rust???
I put three question marks because I am not sure of that observation.
But if true then tar would be a means of reviving old steel rusted items.
And if the claim is true, I cannot think of the physics or chemistry as to why
tar can remove all rust and leave shiny bare steel metal?
P.S. And today I did some tar patching and for the first time in my life was able
to not get any on my fingers or hands or clothing or anything except the roof
job. I attribute that to carefullness but also to the application of vaseline to
my hands in case I did get some on that it would not stick. Also I bought a cheap
50 cent paint brush that I was going to throw away after the job. So that if one
anticipates the job so as to not get any tar on them, then success is attainable.
Archimedes Plutonium,
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
04 Oct 2003 10:17:25 AM |
|
|
"Archimedes Plutonium" <a_plutonium@dtgnet.com> wrote in message
news:3F7DD810.9890A684@dtgnet.com...
steel roof [maintenance]:
I ran into something while tarring spots of the steel roof.
I put tar on a rust spot and years later ...the steel metal is as
if there had never been any rust.....
...galvanized sheet metal with some rust spots ...[rust] coated with
tar-cement or tar-coating and years later peel away the tar,
will you find underneath shiny steel metal with no signs of
any rust???
I [put] vaseline to my hands as I did some tar patching [and]
to not get any [tar] on my [myself] except the roof job.
I bought a cheap 50 cent paint brush [for] the job.
And if [my] claim is true, I cannot think of the physics or chemistry
as to why tar can remove all rust and leave shiny bare steel metal?
Archimedes Plutonium,
Steve Turner made a good suggestion that it is probably a physical
effect of transferring the loosely adhering rust from the steel onto the
highly adhesive tar. However.....
Did you see any of the red rust in the black tar matrix of the peels?
What was the name of the "tar" product you used?
Was it molten tar?
Was it tar dissolved in Turpentine/Kerosene?
Was it a Tar/Lignin-sulfonate/water emulsion?
The latter here could have induced a slow chem reaction and
converted/sequestered the rust over time into a black iron chelate.
Lignin sulfonates are commonly used in corrosion inhibitors.
But, let me know what product you used, since I'd like to try your
procedure on steel vents and flanges.
hanson
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tony" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
04 Oct 2003 05:51:06 PM |
|
|
"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote in message news:<9wBfb.1777$gA1.691@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"Archimedes Plutonium" <a_plutonium@dtgnet.com> wrote in message
<snips>
...galvanized sheet metal with some rust spots ...[rust] coated with
tar-cement or tar-coating and years later peel away the tar,
will you find underneath shiny steel metal with no signs of
any rust???
Did you see any of the red rust in the black tar matrix of the peels?
What was the name of the "tar" product you used?
Was it molten tar?
Was it tar dissolved in Turpentine/Kerosene?
Was it a Tar/Lignin-sulfonate/water emulsion?
The latter here could have induced a slow chem reaction and
converted/sequestered the rust over time into a black iron chelate.
Lignin sulfonates are commonly used in corrosion inhibitors.
Archie makes reference to *galvanized* steel. It seems reasonable
that sealing a rusty area for a while will allow the rust to be
re-reduced by the Zn in surrounding areas. Any rust not in good
electrical/mechanical contact with the Fe substrate gets yanked
off by the tar when it is removed. Seems reasonable.
A more general application would be the protection of steel
by the sacfificial oxidation of Zn in marine vessels.
As you know, rapid progress in gunpowder and cannon are making
current warships obsolete. I expect to see more "Ironclads"
being built, and even full steel hulled ships! (Even though
people say a steel ship can't float). Corrosion in metal ships
will be a factor of much concern and worry to the Navy. I am
sure any device or invention to counter it will be of much value
and great utility to our navy.
Yours Allways,
Tony.
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
04 Oct 2003 07:13:04 PM |
|
|
"Tony" <alapen@ncounty.net> wrote in message
news:8e4b10ea.0310041451.691c0cf@posting.google.com...
"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote in message
news:<9wBfb.1777$gA1.691@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"Archimedes Plutonium"
...galvanized sheet metal with some rust spots ...[rust] coated with
tar-cement or tar-coating and years later peel away the tar,
will you find underneath shiny steel metal with no signs of
any rust???
Did you see any of the red rust in the black tar matrix of the peels?
What was the name of the "tar" product you used?
Was it molten tar?
Was it tar dissolved in Turpentine/Kerosene?
Was it a Tar/Lignin-sulfonate/water emulsion?
The latter here could have induced a slow chem reaction and
converted/sequestered the rust over time into a black iron chelate.
Lignin sulfonates are commonly used in corrosion inhibitors.
Archie makes reference to *galvanized* steel. It seems
reasonable that sealing a rusty area for a while will allow the
rust to be re-reduced by the Zn in surrounding areas.
It is not that simple. The rust will not be re-reduced. That is only a
hope. Fe once oxidized on the surface will remain Fe2O3, Fe3O4,
FeO... rust. The purpose of the Zinc coating (galvanized, e-plated
,impact plated or in primers) is the same as you mentioned below:
sacrificial. But once there is a naked spot, a thru-abrasion of the
Zn layer which just slightly bigger than a pinhole, thru' the galvanized
(Zn) surface, letting the naked Fe be exposed to H2O/O2 then the
rusting sets in invariably. The sacrificial anode / cathode effect does
not reach very far. In a perfect world Archie's Steel roof would
main rust free as long as there is a single spot of sacrificial Zn left.
But it unfortunately doesn't work that way because Uncle Murphy lives
at the interface where everything that can go wrong ...will go wrong.
In time the Fe corrosion even creeps on under the edges of the
protective Zinc layer.
Corrosion is an extremely complex surface(mono)layer phenomena
and its theory is still by n' large a story where most practical advances
in the art are experimental/empirical in nature.
However, the purpose of my posting on this is not pontification,
for a change, but it is my hope to hear Archie sing and tell me
the brand name of the tar product he used.
Or is he the only one around who is in love with steel roofs?
ahahaha.......ahahahahanson
Any rust not in good electrical/mechanical contact with the
Fe substrate gets yanked off by the tar when it is removed.
Seems reasonable.
A more general application would be the protection of steel
by the sacfificial oxidation of Zn in marine vessels.
As you know, rapid progress in gunpowder and cannon are making
current warships obsolete. I expect to see more "Ironclads"
being built, and even full steel hulled ships! (Even though
people say a steel ship can't float). Corrosion in metal ships
will be a factor of much concern and worry to the Navy. I am
sure any device or invention to counter it will be of much value
and great utility to our navy.
Yours Allways,
Tony.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Helmut Wabnig" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
04 Oct 2003 12:18:20 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:17:25 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote:
But, let me know what product you used, since I'd like to try your
procedure on steel vents and flanges.
You just saved the Golden Gate Bridge,
among others, Plutonium!
Go, file for a patent!
(Mathew Orman may help you with that)
w.
--
On the Internet nobody knows that I am a dog.
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
04 Oct 2003 12:59:20 PM |
|
|
"Helmut Wabnig" <hXXXwabnig@aXXXon.at> wrote in message
news:r30unvcdfct498bgc48bn9rinpdmk2ele1@4ax.com...
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:17:25 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote:
But, let me know what product you used, since I'd like to try your
procedure on steel vents and flanges.
You just saved the Golden Gate Bridge,
among others, Plutonium!
Go, file for a patent!
(Mathew Orman may help you with that)
w.
--
On the Internet nobody knows that I am a dog.
ahahaha......ahahaha.......
Helm, there in lovely Austria, from where and when you posted that,
it was Saturday, at nine-15 in the night..... That makes it reasonably
plausible that you are indeed a dog, as you advertise, & a clever one
at that, since you may already have sniffed so much turpentine or
related spirits, on this fine autumn evening, ....that it gave you the idea
that this may be patentable...wow! Big Time! .... So, be nice to Archie
and Orman and they may include you as co-inventor in the patent.
BTW, go easy on the stuff or it will rust your dog brain & tar your vision....
Servus, Mensch, .....ahahahaha.......ahahanson
PS: Now, Archie,
What was the name product name/label of the "tar" product you used?
Was it molten tar?
Was it tar dissolved in Turpentine/Kerosene?
Was it a Tar/Lignin-Sulfonate/water emulsion?
hanson
.
|
|
|
| User: "tj Frazir" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
04 Oct 2003 05:32:23 PM |
|
|
Supper glue on sandblasted steel mixed with
ash / and painted with epoxy gell is on by ice breaker. The glue is
not thick enoup to crack or see wile epoxy panels go over the steel.
Paint sucks ,,,.
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
04 Oct 2003 07:22:10 PM |
|
|
"tj Frazir" <GravityPhysics@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23201-3F7F4A77-103@storefull-2153.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Supper glue on sandblasted steel mixed with
ash / and painted with epoxy gell is on by ice breaker. The glue is
not thick enoup to crack or see wile epoxy panels go over the steel.
Paint sucks ,,,.
Let me check what you said here:
1) Sandblast/clean the surface.
2) Prime and seal the clean surface with a superglue/cyanoacrylate coat,
(how thick, tj? 1/2 mil or less? -- post a brand name of the stuff)
3) Top coat with an epoxy gel coat.
(how thick, tj? 2 mils or more? -- post a brand name of the stuff)
4) Where does the "ash" come in?
(by "ash" did you mean the ashen color of the pigment or what
-- post a brand name of the stuff)
Thanks, tj,
hanson
.
|
|
|
| User: "tj Frazir" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
04 Oct 2003 11:23:33 PM |
|
|
Yup. its a thin coat a mil thick hardley cover the surface and thined
out to fill th sand blast texture. Then coal ash is sprayed onto the
wet super glue and smokes. Then its brushed clean of excess ash .
Then zilien base epoxy a and b thin soaks into the ash with a jell coat
wet coat .
It wount peal or rust ever . That epoxy will be stuck to the glue and
the ash fiber reinforced bond to the surfaces .
The entire finish is thinner than a coat of paint.
It looks like porcilin .
You gota see this...
VESSEL FOR SALE @ www.shipREPO.com
Address:http://www.shiprepo.com/vessel_detail.asp?ID=414
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 09:01:22 AM |
|
|
"tj Frazir" <GravityPhysics@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29395-3F7F9CC5-25@storefull-2152.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Yup. its a thin coat a mil thick hardley cover the surface and thined
out to fill th sand blast texture. Then coal ash is sprayed onto the
wet super glue and smokes. Then its brushed clean of excess ash .
Then zilien base epoxy a and b thin soaks into the ash with a jell coat
wet coat .
It wount peal or rust ever . That epoxy will be stuck to the glue and
the ash fiber reinforced bond to the surfaces .
The entire finish is thinner than a coat of paint.
It looks like porcilin .
Very good, tj. Thanks.
Do you have a MIL- or DOD- or manufacturer's specification
which covers that procedure? If you know the name, title or
numberfor it, please post it.
hanson
You gota see this...
VESSEL FOR SALE @ www.shipREPO.com
Address:http://www.shiprepo.com/vessel_detail.asp?ID=414
.
|
|
|
| User: "DarkMatter" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 11:01:26 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:01:22 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
"tj Frazir" <GravityPhysics@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29395-3F7F9CC5-25@storefull-2152.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Yup. its a thin coat a mil thick hardley cover the surface and thined
out to fill th sand blast texture. Then coal ash is sprayed onto the
wet super glue and smokes. Then its brushed clean of excess ash .
Then zilien base epoxy a and b thin soaks into the ash with a jell coat
wet coat .
It wount peal or rust ever . That epoxy will be stuck to the glue and
the ash fiber reinforced bond to the surfaces .
The entire finish is thinner than a coat of paint.
It looks like porcilin .
Very good, tj. Thanks.
Do you have a MIL- or DOD- or manufacturer's specification
which covers that procedure? If you know the name, title or
numberfor it, please post it.
hanson
I doubt he even has a clue. He cannot even spell the word "peel".
Several could apply depending on whether one is qualifying a process
or utilizing a known process.
MIL-S-5002 C Amend 1
Surface Treatments and Inorganic Coatings for Metal Surfaces of
Weapons Systems
MIL-C-5541
Chemical Conversion Coatings on Aluminum and Aluminum Alloys
MIL-P-116J-1988
Preservation Methods, to protect material against environment induced
corrosion and deterioration.
for companies that need to comply to or are complying with ISO/AS/QS
9000 section 4.15-handling preservation, and/or clause
7.5.5-preservation of.
MIL-STD-171E, Finishing of Metals and Wood Surfaces. (It provides
information for finishing and treating metal and wood surfaces; also a
guide to the selection of suitable finishing material, procedures and
systems. It covers both organic (paint, varnish, etc) and inorganic
(metal plate, phosphatized metal and related) coatings.
AFAIK, tar is out, and more advanced materials have been in use for
many years now. Kinda figures... tj has been out of the loop for
years as well.
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 11:38:12 AM |
|
|
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:oaf0ov4t3duh2ksgsarivdevt9qm4s3h0b@4ax.com...
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:01:22 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
"tj Frazir" <GravityPhysics@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29395-3F7F9CC5-25@storefull-2152.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Yup. its a thin coat a mil thick hardley cover the surface and thined
out to fill th sand blast texture. Then coal ash is sprayed onto the
wet super glue and smokes. Then its brushed clean of excess ash .
Then zilien base epoxy a and b thin soaks into the ash with a jell coat
wet coat .
It wount peal or rust ever . That epoxy will be stuck to the glue and
the ash fiber reinforced bond to the surfaces .
The entire finish is thinner than a coat of paint.
It looks like porcilin .
Very good, tj. Thanks.
Do you have a MIL- or DOD- or manufacturer's specification
which covers that procedure? If you know the name, title or
numberfor it, please post it.
hanson
I doubt he even has a clue. He cannot even spell the word "peel".
Several could apply depending on whether one is qualifying a process
or utilizing a known process.
MIL-S-5002 C Amend 1
Surface Treatments and Inorganic Coatings for Metal Surfaces of
Weapons Systems
MIL-C-5541
Chemical Conversion Coatings on Aluminum and Aluminum Alloys
MIL-P-116J-1988
Preservation Methods, to protect material against environment induced
corrosion and deterioration.
for companies that need to comply to or are complying with ISO/AS/QS
9000 section 4.15-handling preservation, and/or clause
7.5.5-preservation of.
MIL-STD-171E, Finishing of Metals and Wood Surfaces. (It provides
information for finishing and treating metal and wood surfaces; also a
guide to the selection of suitable finishing material, procedures and
systems. It covers both organic (paint, varnish, etc) and inorganic
(metal plate, phosphatized metal and related) coatings.
AFAIK, tar is out, and more advanced materials have been in use for
many years now. Kinda figures... tj has been out of the loop for
years as well. -- DarkMatter
Thanks, dude. I appreciate your comments.
We have an entire library full of these and such specs.
I was hoping that tj could give me the particular spec. about the
coating system he is singing about, so that I could check it out.
Archie's tar was of interest to me because a) tar is cheap, and b)
all the new advanced organic coatings covered by the above specs
are not any better on steel vents or smoke stacks because of the
constants expansion/contraction and likewise the rapid temperature
changes and concomitant condensations they are exposed to.
The best protection for such steel pipes we found are thick flexible
coatings of Thiokol or Silicone, because that can be easily stripped
off and reapplied at regular maintenance schedules. If tar does the
same trick, then why spend 20x more money on advanced coatings.
Since I haven't heard anything from Archie, I will send the maintenance
guys to Homedepot and Lowes and have them get any & all commercially
available tar products and tar-roof sealers, and then coat test pieces with
it which we'll hang into the Saltspray chambers, etc.
Again, dude, thanks for your professional input,
hanson
.
|
|
|
| User: "tj Frazir" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 01:50:46 PM |
|
|
Ever mix zilein and tar to thin the tar and some clear coat hardner ?
Thats cheep mix and use.
Power washer wount move it ,,its stuck forever
its hard but never gets hard enouph to crack.
The supper glue cant be beat . Not when things get cold . Porclin gets
too cold.
Tar will shatter. The thisest layer of supper glue is still stuck.
Smacking it with a hammer wount crush the glue out of the steel.
It eats the oxygen out and filles the surface .
Supper glue a pice of tile to the bottom of a jet boat and go try
getting it off in the bay.
I can glue floor tile down so tite onto steel and the inside of a
tank will never ever rust.
The best bond ,,,I can use xpoxy and get all most the bond but more
money.
Crazzy glue breaks down and turns yellow in 4 years. Supper glue
breaks down in 50 years if protected from UV .
Supper glue will take sanding and neads no primer.
Ill take a steel plate 12 x 12 inch and glue it to the wall with a
ring at the center ,,pull it off.
IF you can paint your plate and get it to stick...
I will heat the plate in the sun and it will fall off ..
Where supper glue will strech and my plate stuck to the wall so well you
will bust the ring trying ,,at neg 50 deg or 120 deg.
Supper glue on a steel plate hit by a bead blaster. same as rubber
,,paint is gone supper glue still there.
I just put epoxy paint on the glue to keep it in the dark.
I have a big mirir stuck to a wall with glue.
Why are you not selling me anything better than that supper blue and why
cant I find any in the store ?
I sent a tanker truck ,,
The best sticker ,,,,filler up.
I got the stuff that stays stuck !
Nasa uses it ! But still ,,,wheres yours better ?? Fill it up with
better than supper glue.
Heres my $ 1.79 in advance.x 1mm.
.
|
|
|
| User: "DarkMatter" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 03:32:59 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:50:46 -0400 (EDT), (tj
Frazir) Gave us:
Nasa uses it ! But still ,,,wheres yours better ?? Fill it up with
better than supper glue.
The ONLY approved encapsulant for space by NASA is called CONAP, and
it is NOT tar, you decades behind dipshit.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "DarkMatter" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 11:58:31 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:38:12 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
Archie's tar was of interest to me because a) tar is cheap, and b)
all the new advanced organic coatings covered by the above specs
are not any better on steel vents or smoke stacks because of the
constants expansion/contraction and likewise the rapid temperature
changes and concomitant condensations they are exposed to.
I guess you don't know much about advanced epoxy coatings then.
Epoxy does not have to cure firm. Tar, on a smoke stack is probably
a fire code violation, and it also gets quite liquidous under high
heat exposure. Are you quite sure that you want to put flammable
materials on a smoke stack?
Would it not be cheaper to simply visit a mechanical shop (HVAC to
the unlearned) and have them fabricate a 20 or 18 Ga stainless stack
for ya? That IS what real knowledgable businesses do, ya know.
Sheesh, you'll spend more money in labor researching a failed method
than that would cost. Unless you make burger flipper's wages.
Stainless is and has always been the answer for ducting that is
subjected to the rigors you describe.
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 03:41:33 PM |
|
|
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:53j0ovgf4l4sdvq2rbiu9njnn2e2n4k4ls@4ax.com...
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:38:12 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
Archie's tar was of interest to me because a) tar is cheap, and b)
all the new advanced organic coatings covered by the above specs
are not any better on steel vents or smoke stacks because of the
constants expansion/contraction and likewise the rapid temperature
changes and concomitant condensations they are exposed to.
I guess you don't know much about advanced epoxy coatings then.
Epoxy does not have to cure firm. Tar, on a smoke stack is probably
a fire code violation, and it also gets quite liquidous under high
heat exposure. Are you quite sure that you want to put flammable
materials on a smoke stack?
Would it not be cheaper to simply visit a mechanical shop (HVAC to
the unlearned) and have them fabricate a 20 or 18 Ga stainless stack
for ya? That IS what real knowledgable businesses do, ya know.
Sheesh, you'll spend more money in labor researching a failed method
than that would cost. Unless you make burger flipper's wages.
Stainless is and has always been the answer for ducting that is
subjected to the rigors you describe. -- DarkMatter
AHHAHAHA........ahahahahaha..........
You'd make a good peddler. Quick in judgment and highly opinionated.
You make too many assumptions and your proposals are too vague.
But, perhaps one day I'll hire you, should everything else fail, including
tar......then maybe I will check out other such dark matter.
So, I'll keep you on file, and an eye on you........
ahahaha........ahahahanson
.
|
|
|
| User: "DarkMatter" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 03:51:04 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:41:33 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:53j0ovgf4l4sdvq2rbiu9njnn2e2n4k4ls@4ax.com...
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:38:12 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
Archie's tar was of interest to me because a) tar is cheap, and b)
all the new advanced organic coatings covered by the above specs
are not any better on steel vents or smoke stacks because of the
constants expansion/contraction and likewise the rapid temperature
changes and concomitant condensations they are exposed to.
I guess you don't know much about advanced epoxy coatings then.
Epoxy does not have to cure firm. Tar, on a smoke stack is probably
a fire code violation, and it also gets quite liquidous under high
heat exposure. Are you quite sure that you want to put flammable
materials on a smoke stack?
Would it not be cheaper to simply visit a mechanical shop (HVAC to
the unlearned) and have them fabricate a 20 or 18 Ga stainless stack
for ya? That IS what real knowledgable businesses do, ya know.
Sheesh, you'll spend more money in labor researching a failed method
than that would cost. Unless you make burger flipper's wages.
Stainless is and has always been the answer for ducting that is
subjected to the rigors you describe. -- DarkMatter
AHHAHAHA........ahahahahaha..........
You'd make a good peddler. Quick in judgment and highly opinionated.
You make too many assumptions and your proposals are too vague.
But, perhaps one day I'll hire you, should everything else fail, including
tar......then maybe I will check out other such dark matter.
So, I'll keep you on file, and an eye on you........
ahahaha........ahahahanson
Stainless has been around for decades, dingledorf. If you are that
many years behind, you must really be only making burger flipper's
wages.
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 04:01:35 PM |
|
|
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:a011ovssmi95oh9rrp1a1oc25rt7r2r9bl@4ax.com...
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:41:33 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:53j0ovgf4l4sdvq2rbiu9njnn2e2n4k4ls@4ax.com...
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:38:12 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
Archie's tar was of interest to me because a) tar is cheap, and b)
all the new advanced organic coatings covered by the above specs
are not any better on steel vents or smoke stacks because of the
constants expansion/contraction and likewise the rapid temperature
changes and concomitant condensations they are exposed to.
I guess you don't know much about advanced epoxy coatings then.
Epoxy does not have to cure firm. Tar, on a smoke stack is probably
a fire code violation, and it also gets quite liquidous under high
heat exposure. Are you quite sure that you want to put flammable
materials on a smoke stack?
Would it not be cheaper to simply visit a mechanical shop (HVAC to
the unlearned) and have them fabricate a 20 or 18 Ga stainless stack
for ya? That IS what real knowledgable businesses do, ya know.
Sheesh, you'll spend more money in labor researching a failed method
than that would cost. Unless you make burger flipper's wages.
Stainless is and has always been the answer for ducting that is
subjected to the rigors you describe. -- DarkMatter
AHHAHAHA........ahahahahaha..........
You'd make a good peddler. Quick in judgment and highly opinionated.
You make too many assumptions and your proposals are too vague.
But, perhaps one day I'll hire you, should everything else fail, including
tar......then maybe I will check out other such dark matter.
So, I'll keep you on file, and an eye on you........
ahahaha........ahahahanson
Stainless has been around for decades, dingledorf. If you are that
many years behind, you must really be only making burger flipper's
wages.
AHAHAHAH.......ahahaha........I didn't mean to cranck you nor disturb
your serenty. I am excruciatingly sorry that I raised your BP & P.
Ahahhahahahaha........AHAHHAHAHAHA.......ahahahanson
.
|
|
|
| User: "DarkMatter" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 07:02:03 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:01:35 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:a011ovssmi95oh9rrp1a1oc25rt7r2r9bl@4ax.com...
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:41:33 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:53j0ovgf4l4sdvq2rbiu9njnn2e2n4k4ls@4ax.com...
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:38:12 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
Archie's tar was of interest to me because a) tar is cheap, and b)
all the new advanced organic coatings covered by the above specs
are not any better on steel vents or smoke stacks because of the
constants expansion/contraction and likewise the rapid temperature
changes and concomitant condensations they are exposed to.
I guess you don't know much about advanced epoxy coatings then.
Epoxy does not have to cure firm. Tar, on a smoke stack is probably
a fire code violation, and it also gets quite liquidous under high
heat exposure. Are you quite sure that you want to put flammable
materials on a smoke stack?
Would it not be cheaper to simply visit a mechanical shop (HVAC to
the unlearned) and have them fabricate a 20 or 18 Ga stainless stack
for ya? That IS what real knowledgable businesses do, ya know.
Sheesh, you'll spend more money in labor researching a failed method
than that would cost. Unless you make burger flipper's wages.
Stainless is and has always been the answer for ducting that is
subjected to the rigors you describe. -- DarkMatter
AHHAHAHA........ahahahahaha..........
You'd make a good peddler. Quick in judgment and highly opinionated.
You make too many assumptions and your proposals are too vague.
But, perhaps one day I'll hire you, should everything else fail, including
tar......then maybe I will check out other such dark matter.
So, I'll keep you on file, and an eye on you........
ahahaha........ahahahanson
Stainless has been around for decades, dingledorf. If you are that
many years behind, you must really be only making burger flipper's
wages.
AHAHAHAH.......ahahaha........I didn't mean to cranck you nor disturb
your serenty. I am excruciatingly sorry that I raised your BP & P.
Ahahhahahahaha........AHAHHAHAHAHA.......ahahahanson
You're an idiot. My "BP" is fine. I suppressed my full blown
laughter at your ignorance, and your unproven dismissal.
You are more likely to pop a vein with your ludicrous inability to
keep your fucking fingers off the A and H keys. You should see
someone about that problem.
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
06 Oct 2003 12:02:03 AM |
|
|
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:64c1ovkninpd69frvbgbmh0p6mbvimof5r@4ax.com...
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:01:35 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:a011ovssmi95oh9rrp1a1oc25rt7r2r9bl@4ax.com...
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:41:33 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:53j0ovgf4l4sdvq2rbiu9njnn2e2n4k4ls@4ax.com...
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:38:12 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
Archie's tar was of interest to me because a) tar is cheap, and b)
all the new advanced organic coatings covered by the above specs
are not any better on steel vents or smoke stacks because of the
constants expansion/contraction and likewise the rapid temperature
changes and concomitant condensations they are exposed to.
I guess you don't know much about advanced epoxy coatings then.
Epoxy does not have to cure firm. Tar, on a smoke stack is probably
a fire code violation, and it also gets quite liquidous under high
heat exposure. Are you quite sure that you want to put flammable
materials on a smoke stack?
Would it not be cheaper to simply visit a mechanical shop (HVAC to
the unlearned) and have them fabricate a 20 or 18 Ga stainless stack
for ya? That IS what real knowledgable businesses do, ya know.
Sheesh, you'll spend more money in labor researching a failed method
than that would cost. Unless you make burger flipper's wages.
Stainless is and has always been the answer for ducting that is
subjected to the rigors you describe. -- DarkMatter
AHHAHAHA........ahahahahaha..........
You'd make a good peddler. Quick in judgment and highly opinionated.
You make too many assumptions and your proposals are too vague.
But, perhaps one day I'll hire you, should everything else fail, including
tar......then maybe I will check out other such dark matter.
So, I'll keep you on file, and an eye on you........
ahahaha........ahahahanson
Stainless has been around for decades, dingledorf. If you are that
many years behind, you must really be only making burger flipper's
wages.
AHAHAHAH.......ahahaha........I didn't mean to cranck you nor disturb
your serenty. I am excruciatingly sorry that I raised your BP & P.
Ahahhahahahaha........AHAHHAHAHAHA.......ahahahanson
You're an idiot. My "BP" is fine. I suppressed my full blown
laughter at your ignorance, and your unproven dismissal.
You are more likely to pop a vein with your ludicrous inability to
keep your fucking fingers off the A and H keys. You should see
someone about that problem.
AHahhahahaha........ahahahahaha......ahahahaha.....ahahahaha..
Awe, I didn't mean to crank you, my dear quasi-intellectual friend:
You have turned this exchange into a truly Dark Matter.
Now, go ahead and have the last world, and show to the world that
you are not capable to turn your Dark Matter into even a trace of
grey matter............ahahahahaha.........ahahahahhaah......ahahaha..
I bet you can't keep your mouth shut and you will respond and
therewith trumpet into the world: " I , DarkMatter, am a stupid *****"
ahahahaha..........ahahahahanson
PS: I have noticed that you are also a strenuous aspirant to become
the latest news-group janitor. You are not effective at that neither.
ahahahahahahah.....ahahahah. Perhaps you should console yourself
at your very own place, "the bar at the end of the universe" .........
ahahahha.........ahahahahahah......ahahahahahaahahahahahaha ......
.
|
|
|
| User: "DarkMatter" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
06 Oct 2003 01:37:37 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 05:02:03 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
AHahhahahaha........ahahahahaha......ahahahaha.....ahahahaha..
Snipped triple posted, retarded baby *****.
Hanson runs off with his tail between his legs as he cannot respond
to the claim that stainless steel flues are better than sheet steel.
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
06 Oct 2003 09:23:50 AM |
|
|
"DarkMatter, started to refer to himself as stupid *****"
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> in message
news:pa32ov82ismbhqtg4h689leueo85mtg63h@4ax.com...
Hanson said:
I bet you can't keep your mouth shut and you will respond and
therewith trumpet into the world: " I , DarkMatter, am a stupid *****"
ahahahaha..........ahahahahanson
You actually did it, dude...........you couldn't contain yourself and
had to trumpet into the world: " I , DarkMatter, am a stupid *****"
I bet you are going for seconds ...... ahahaha... ...ahahahaha.....
WOahahah.....ahahahahaha.........UUUahahaha.....AHAHAHA.....
ahahahaahaha.....ahahahahahanson
PS:
Hanson runs off with his tail between his legs as he cannot respond
to the claim that stainless steel flues are better than sheet steel.
hahahahaha.......but SS Darkmatter, listen , nobody but YOU made an
issue over this. The question was, what Brandname of tar did Archie
use on his steel roof...........you are at liberty of course to talk about
anything you want and wish........whether you get the response you
desire, that is iffy in your institutional case, except each time that you
respond now you do refer to yourself as "I, DarkMatter, am a stupid *****"
.....cumulatively............the count-up has
begun...........ahahahahahahaha.......
.
|
|
|
| User: "DarkMatter" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
06 Oct 2003 09:51:26 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:23:50 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
..the count-up has
begun...........ahahahahahahaha.......
Yer a goddamned usenet retard, Hanson.
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
06 Oct 2003 10:08:46 AM |
|
|
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org
"DarkMatter, refered to himself for the 2nd time as stupid *****"
while guzzling "@ his bar at the end of the universe" and wrote
news:pa03ov45efu72r7k2o1sfb1jq8tbm05l6i@4ax.com...
"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> predicted:
.....the count-up has begun...........ahahahahahahaha.......
Yer a goddamned usenet retard, Hanson.
Hanson said:
I bet you can't keep your mouth shut and you will respond and
therewith trumpet into the world: " I , DarkMatter, am a stupid *****"
ahahahaha..........ahahahahanson
You actually did it, dude...........you couldn't contain yourself and had to
trumpet into the world a second time now: " I , DarkMatter, am a stupid *****"
I bet you are coming back for *third* helpings now ...... ahahaha...
WOahahah.....ahahahahaha.........UUUahahaha.....AHAHAHA.....
ahahahaahaha.....ahahahahahanson
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "DarkMatter" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
06 Oct 2003 09:50:40 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:23:50 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
what Brandname of tar did Archie
use on his steel roof....
Tar is tar. It has no brand name, retard boy.
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
06 Oct 2003 10:08:45 AM |
|
|
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org
"DarkMatter, refered to himself for the 2nd time as stupid *****"
while guzzling "@ the his at the end of the universe", and wrote in
news:b903ovo4cokbjk02k1jonf6tas8o4ed026@4ax.com...
"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
what Brandname of tar did Archie use on his steel roof....
Tar is tar. It has no brand name, retard boy.
"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> predicted:
.....the count-up has begun...........ahahahahahahaha.......
Yer a goddamned usenet retard, Hanson.
Hanson said:
I bet you can't keep your mouth shut and you will respond and
therewith trumpet into the world: " I , DarkMatter, am a stupid *****"
ahahahaha..........ahahahahanson
You actually did it, dude...........you couldn't contain yourself and had to
trumpet into the world a second time now: " I , DarkMatter, am a stupid *****"
I bet you are coming back for *third* helpings now ...... ahahaha...
WOahahah.....ahahahahaha.........UUUahahaha.....AHAHAHA.....
ahahahaahaha.....ahahahahahanson
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "DarkMatter" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 11:59:36 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:38:12 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
The best protection for such steel pipes we found are thick flexible
coatings of Thiokol or Silicone, because that can be easily stripped
off and reapplied at regular maintenance schedules. If tar does the
same trick, then why spend 20x more money on advanced coatings.
Why force continued maintenance at all? Must be quite costly.
Surely high enough to warrant the one time expense of replacing the
stack(s) with stainless versions.
.
|
|
|
| User: "hanson" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 03:41:33 PM |
|
|
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:4ej0ov0h39uknsm9ot4e41meddv8nefvhk@4ax.com...
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:38:12 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
The best protection for such steel pipes we found are thick flexible
coatings of Thiokol or Silicone, because that can be easily stripped
off and reapplied at regular maintenance schedules. If tar does the
same trick, then why spend 20x more money on advanced coatings.
Why force continued maintenance at all? Must be quite costly.
Surely high enough to warrant the one time expense of replacing the
stack(s) with stainless versions.
No. Been there, done that. Your approach did not work.
But, I appreciate your deep and abiding concerns.
However, your quick draw answers are just argumentative.
Any decent consultant would ask a long list of exhaustive questions
first, before open his mouth with non-viable platitudes, like yours.
Why do I get the feeling that you have been fired recently?
ahahahah........ahahahahahanson
.
|
|
|
| User: "DarkMatter" |
|
| Title: Re: Tar to rusty metal removes the rust??? |
05 Oct 2003 03:58:01 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:41:33 GMT, "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> Gave us:
No. Been there, done that.
I'd bet not, or at least not well enough researched or attempted.
Sounds like you gave it a cursory thought. How intelligent. NOT!
Your approach did not work.
*****.
But, I appreciate your deep and abiding concerns.
*****.
However, your quick draw answers are just argumentative.
*****.
Any decent consultant would ask a long list of exhaustive questions
first,
*****. Smoke stacks aren't all that special, and the solution is
straightforward.
before open his mouth with non-viable platitudes, like yours.
You seem to need more.
Why do I get the feeling that you have been fired recently?
ahahahah........ahahahahahanson
Another stupid, incorrect observation.
I used to work in sheet metal, and our main business was ALL
stainless for Jails, Hospitals, Bases, and other institutions.
Some were fully welded assemblies.
I'm sure you don't consider those customers stupid. Using anything
but stainless for a smoke stack as opposed to years of "maintenance"
sounds to me like it is YOU that should have been fired, and not
recently, rather long ago. THAT is a stupid plan, at best.
Your ahahahaha... baby ***** is just that. I have been at the
same job for years, chucko. Three weeks paid. Stick that in yer
ahahaha *****.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
