Vestiges of Big Bang Waves Are Reported



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "SDR"
Date: 14 Jan 2005 04:44:44 AM
Object: Vestiges of Big Bang Waves Are Reported
Vestiges of Big Bang Waves Are Reported
SAN DIEGO, Jan. 11 - Astronomers reported on Tuesday
that they had convincingly seen, in the patterns of
galaxies scattered across the night sky, the
vestiges of sound waves that rumbled through the
universe after the Big Bang. Stars and galaxies tended
to form along the ripples of the sound waves where
matter was slightly denser, and the pull of gravity was
slightly stronger. The ripples preserve a picture of the
universe when it was only about one million years old
and fit well with astronomers' ideas of how the universe,
which started smooth and uniform, became lumpy with
stars, gas clouds and other celestial objects. Two teams
of researchers analyzing the locations of thousands of
galaxies from two sections of the sky reported similar
findings on the sound waves at a meeting of the American
Astronomical Society here. Earlier research had found signs
of the ripples, but "we regard this as smoking-gun evidence,"
said Dr. Daniel Eisenstein of the University of Arizona, lead
investigator of one of the teams. "The important picture we
have of the universe is hanging together amazingly well,"
said Dr. Martin Rees, a professor of cosmology and
astrophysics at Cambridge University, who was not involved
with either team. "The standard picture is firming up."
SDR: It is unfortunate that human beings almost
never consider how their prejudiced points of view
(reference) affect the interpretation of what
they're looking at. (When one looks at this same
evidence from the point of view that ours is an
imploding universe this same evidence is as
supportive if not more so of that conclusion than it is
of the notion that it supports the notion of a Big Bang.)
According to that picture, matter was evenly distributed in all
directions for the first instant after the Big Bang. But then
"burbling caused by the physics of quantum mechanics" created
slight imperfections, clumps that were slightly denser with
ordinary matter, as well as dark matter, the unknown material
that accounts for most of the mass in the universe.
SDR: "burbling caused by the physics of quantum
mechanics" is a descriptive phrase which describes
no understood meaning, since no one seems to
understand how/why/wherefore this "burbling" except
to ascribe it NOT to the boiling of water. (It is
but a "guess" of quantum theory rather than a
directly observed effect, necessarily.)
Just as ripples spread out from a pebble dropped in a pond,
sound waves spread out from the dense clumps, traveling
about half the speed of light through the hot gas made of matter,
which is composed of electrons and protons, and of photons, or
particles of light. About 400,000 years after the Big Bang, the
universe cooled enough that the charged electrons and protons
combined to form hydrogen atoms, which allowed most of the
photons to escape the hot gas. Several years ago, astronomers
detected the sound waves etched by the photons.
SDR: I was expecting to have to argue that any
unitarian "pattern" across a substantial portion of
the visible universe could be as much evidence of an
imploding universe as of an "exploding" (or, Big
Bang) one, since "mass/matter" falling towards a
center point in an imploding universe would create
"stretch ripples" (or "waves") looking not unlike the
rings of Saturn as matter necessarily "averaged" away
from a solidly massed body into "bands" of lower/higher
densities. However this is not what is being described
here except as this effect hints at that (which I could
not argue it does unless the "ripples" are shown to
display a definite orientation they all agree to/with.)
The sound waves continued to spread for an additional 600,000
years, and when the last remaining photons escaped, the waves
stopped, roughly 500,000 light-years from the dense clumps that
produced them. When stars began to form, they tended to form
around either the pebble-like clumps of dark matter or along the
ripples. As the universe has expanded in the 13.7 billion years since
then, the typical distance between ripple and clump has stretched
to 500 million light-years. The new research shows the matter
component of the early sound waves. Galaxies in the present
universe are more likely to be 500 million light-years apart than
other distances, Dr. Eisenstein said. One light-year is the distance
light travels in one year, or 6 trillion miles. The pictures do not
show sharply delineated ripples, because the ripples were small
and many overlapping ripples emanated from many different
clumps. "It's a much more subtle effect than that," Dr. Eisenstein
said. "It's like you've taken a handful of gravel and thrown them
in a pond."
SDR: Although computer models would be the only way
to answer this, it's likely that this latest reported effect is
somehow a macro result of the Hubble Constant (since, as
I said before, it has not been reported [yet] that the "ripples"
share any kind of universal bias/orientation which would lead
us to conclude that what we are seeing is connected to any
positive evidence either of an imploding or a Big Bang universe).
Statistical analysis (computer models) are therefore needed to
better understand this effect. Including the possible disallowance
that it's due to the Hubble Constant (any grouping of galaxies or
even clusters of them in isolation from other groupings would
necessarily also "display" ripples-like banding due to the fact that
the farthest bodies from center would be receding from those
centers faster than those closer to the same centers.
Dr. Eisenstein and his colleagues used information from
the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, which is mapping galaxies
with a telescope in New Mexico. The other team used data
from a project called the 2dF Galaxy Redshift Survey that
is scanning the sky with a telescope in Australia. The research
has also refined estimates on the amount of matter - 18 percent
of matter is ordinary matter that makes up stars and planets,
and the remaining 82 percent is dark matter. And it offers
further evidence that the geometry of the universe is perfectly
flat, where the angles of all triangles always add up to 180 degrees.
SDR: Again an imploding universe would also be this flat.
And the "refinement" on so-called "dark matter" above only
"reflects" the fact that it is only in an imploding universe
that we would observe such behavior WITHOUT having to
invent some "invisible" anything to account for it.
"It's more than confirmation of what we already knew from the
microwave background," said Dr. Richard S. Ellis, a professor of
astronomy at the California Institute of Technology and a
member of the 2dF team.
SDR: You'll be sorry, professor! Don't say I didn't warn you
that it's not what the evidence says to God but what it says
to some one or two very provincial fellows... necessarily
looking at it from some always limited perspective.
As the astronomers look farther away and further back in time,
the size of the ripples will decrease in size. The ripples could serve
as a convenient yardstick to track the history of the universe's
expansion. That could shed light on dark energy, a mysterious
force discovered in the past few years that, at cosmological distances,
is stronger than gravity and is causing the expansion of the universe
to accelerate.
SDR: No question that the implosion model must also find that
the farther back in time we look the smaller the ripples must be
found to be (also strictly a function of the Hubble Constant).

It's no different than the quandary cosmology found itself in back
when "simpler" people thought the universe revolved around the
earth... and invented extremely clever equations with which to
predict every least movement of every heavenly body. People seem
to like nothing better than to make the same mistakes over and over
again, only in slightly different ways... when all they'd have to do is
follow a very basic principle: "If you must take a plane to take a
step... somewhere, somehow, you are putting your foot in it."
S D Rodrian
http://poems.sdrodrian.com
http://physics.sdrodrian.com
http://music.sdrodrian.com
.

User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: Vestiges of Big Bang Waves Are Reported 14 Jan 2005 06:17:17 AM
SDR wrote:

Vestiges of Big Bang Waves Are Reported

SAN DIEGO, Jan. 11 - Astronomers reported on Tuesday
that they had convincingly seen, in the patterns of
galaxies scattered across the night sky, the
vestiges of sound waves that rumbled through the
universe after the Big Bang. Stars and galaxies tended
to form along the ripples of the sound waves where
matter was slightly denser, and the pull of gravity was
slightly stronger. The ripples preserve a picture of the
universe when it was only about one million years old
and fit well with astronomers' ideas of how the universe,
which started smooth and uniform, became lumpy with
stars, gas clouds and other celestial objects. Two teams
of researchers analyzing the locations of thousands of
galaxies from two sections of the sky reported similar
findings on the sound waves at a meeting of the American
Astronomical Society here. Earlier research had found signs
of the ripples, but "we regard this as smoking-gun evidence,"
said Dr. Daniel Eisenstein of the University of Arizona, lead
investigator of one of the teams. "The important picture we
have of the universe is hanging together amazingly well,"
said Dr. Martin Rees, a professor of cosmology and
astrophysics at Cambridge University, who was not involved
with either team. "The standard picture is firming up."

SDR: It is unfortunate that human beings almost
never consider how their prejudiced points of view
(reference) affect the interpretation of what
they're looking at. (When one looks at this same
evidence from the point of view that ours is an
imploding universe this same evidence is as
supportive if not more so of that conclusion than it is
of the notion that it supports the notion of a Big Bang.)

If you can quantitatively describe the observations with
your idea of an imploding universe, feel free to show your work.

According to that picture, matter was evenly distributed in all
directions for the first instant after the Big Bang. But then
"burbling caused by the physics of quantum mechanics" created
slight imperfections, clumps that were slightly denser with
ordinary matter, as well as dark matter, the unknown material
that accounts for most of the mass in the universe.

SDR: "burbling caused by the physics of quantum
mechanics" is a descriptive phrase which describes
no understood meaning, since no one seems to
understand how/why/wherefore this "burbling" except
to ascribe it NOT to the boiling of water.

No. The usage of such a phrase is merely due to the fact
that this is a popular science article. In actual papers
published in peer-reviewed journals, the effect which is
called "burbling" here is quantified in great detail.
If you ever had looked at the literature, you would
not come up with silly claims that this has "no understood
meaning".

(It is
but a "guess" of quantum theory rather than a
directly observed effect, necessarily.)

Wrong. Quantum fluctuations are an experimentally checked
phenomenon.

Just as ripples spread out from a pebble dropped in a pond,
sound waves spread out from the dense clumps, traveling
about half the speed of light through the hot gas made of matter,
which is composed of electrons and protons, and of photons, or
particles of light. About 400,000 years after the Big Bang, the
universe cooled enough that the charged electrons and protons
combined to form hydrogen atoms, which allowed most of the
photons to escape the hot gas. Several years ago, astronomers
detected the sound waves etched by the photons.

SDR: I was expecting to have to argue that any
unitarian "pattern" across a substantial portion of
the visible universe could be as much evidence of an
imploding universe as of an "exploding" (or, Big
Bang) one,

Conveniently ignoring that the BBT provides a *quantitative*
description of what is observed, instead of your qualitative
hand wavings.

since "mass/matter" falling towards a
center point in an imploding universe would create
"stretch ripples" (or "waves") looking not unlike the
rings of Saturn as matter necessarily "averaged" away
from a solidly massed body into "bands" of lower/higher
densities.

Then the ripples should be in the form of concentric spheres,
centered around your "center point". This is not observed.
Bad for your idea, don't you think?

However this is not what is being described here

Indeed. So, how can your idea explain what actually
is observed?

except as this effect hints at that (which I could
not argue it does unless the "ripples" are shown to
display a definite orientation they all agree to/with.)

They don't show a definite orientation.

The sound waves continued to spread for an additional 600,000
years, and when the last remaining photons escaped, the waves
stopped, roughly 500,000 light-years from the dense clumps that
produced them. When stars began to form, they tended to form
around either the pebble-like clumps of dark matter or along the
ripples. As the universe has expanded in the 13.7 billion years since
then, the typical distance between ripple and clump has stretched
to 500 million light-years. The new research shows the matter
component of the early sound waves. Galaxies in the present
universe are more likely to be 500 million light-years apart than
other distances, Dr. Eisenstein said. One light-year is the distance
light travels in one year, or 6 trillion miles. The pictures do not
show sharply delineated ripples, because the ripples were small
and many overlapping ripples emanated from many different
clumps. "It's a much more subtle effect than that," Dr. Eisenstein
said. "It's like you've taken a handful of gravel and thrown them
in a pond."

SDR: Although computer models would be the only way
to answer this, it's likely that this latest reported effect is
somehow a macro result of the Hubble Constant

Why is that "likely"?

(since, as
I said before, it has not been reported [yet] that the "ripples"
share any kind of universal bias/orientation which would lead
us to conclude that what we are seeing is connected to any
positive evidence either of an imploding or a Big Bang universe).

Why on earth do you think that a universal bias/orientation
would be evidence for a BB?
You are right that this would indeed be evidence for your
assertion of the existence of a center.

Statistical analysis (computer models) are therefore needed to
better understand this effect.

Hint: computer simulations of structure formation in the universe
have been done for well over a decade now.

Including the possible disallowance
that it's due to the Hubble Constant (any grouping of galaxies or
even clusters of them in isolation from other groupings would
necessarily also "display" ripples-like banding due to the fact that
the farthest bodies from center would be receding from those
centers faster than those closer to the same centers.

centers? Plural?

Dr. Eisenstein and his colleagues used information from
the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, which is mapping galaxies
with a telescope in New Mexico. The other team used data
from a project called the 2dF Galaxy Redshift Survey that
is scanning the sky with a telescope in Australia. The research
has also refined estimates on the amount of matter - 18 percent
of matter is ordinary matter that makes up stars and planets,
and the remaining 82 percent is dark matter. And it offers
further evidence that the geometry of the universe is perfectly
flat, where the angles of all triangles always add up to 180 degrees.

SDR: Again an imploding universe would also be this flat.
And the "refinement" on so-called "dark matter" above only
"reflects" the fact that it is only in an imploding universe
that we would observe such behavior WITHOUT having to
invent some "invisible" anything to account for it.

How does an imploding universe explain the rotation curves
of galaxies?

"It's more than confirmation of what we already knew from the
microwave background," said Dr. Richard S. Ellis, a professor of
astronomy at the California Institute of Technology and a
member of the 2dF team.

SDR: You'll be sorry, professor! Don't say I didn't warn you
that it's not what the evidence says to God but what it says
to some one or two very provincial fellows... necessarily
looking at it from some always limited perspective.

Can you explain all the existing data quantitatively with
your ideas? If yes, show your work. If not, shut up.

As the astronomers look farther away and further back in time,
the size of the ripples will decrease in size. The ripples could serve
as a convenient yardstick to track the history of the universe's
expansion. That could shed light on dark energy, a mysterious
force discovered in the past few years that, at cosmological distances,
is stronger than gravity and is causing the expansion of the universe
to accelerate.

SDR: No question that the implosion model must also find that
the farther back in time we look the smaller the ripples must be
found to be (also strictly a function of the Hubble Constant).

It's no different than the quandary cosmology found itself in back
when "simpler" people thought the universe revolved around the
earth... and invented extremely clever equations with which to
predict every least movement of every heavenly body. People seem
to like nothing better than to make the same mistakes over and over
again, only in slightly different ways... when all they'd have to do is
follow a very basic principle: "If you must take a plane to take a
step... somewhere, somehow, you are putting your foot in it."

Can you explain all the existing data quantitatively with
your ideas? If yes, show your work. If not, shut up.
Bye,
Bjoern
.
User: "jacob navia"

Title: Re: Vestiges of Big Bang Waves Are Reported 18 Jan 2005 06:32:51 PM
Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote:

If you can quantitatively describe the observations with
your idea of an imploding universe, feel free to show your work.

Reading some of the ideas in his web site, I do not see any
quantitative predictions or other hints of how the theory
of space implosion can lead anywhere else than into the
same problems that the theory of space expansion leads to.
The concept of space is an "a-priori", given in
the very fabric of our thoughts. See Kant, or any
text of philosophy.
*Into what* would be space expanding into?
*How would you measure space "shrinking" ???*
He needs to postulate that space is shrinking relative
to another "x-space" as he calls it.
And that "x-space" doesn't shrink or... does it?
jacob
.

User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox"

Title: Re: Vestiges of Big Bang Waves Are Reported 15 Jan 2005 12:00:29 AM
Dear Bjoern Feuerbacher:
"Bjoern Feuerbacher" <feuerbac@thphys.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in message
news:cs8d8d$ju2$1@news.urz.uni-heidelberg.de...

SDR wrote:

Vestiges of Big Bang Waves Are Reported

SAN DIEGO, Jan. 11 - Astronomers reported on Tuesday that they had
convincingly seen, in the patterns of galaxies scattered across the
night sky, the vestiges of sound waves that rumbled through the universe
after the Big Bang. Stars and galaxies tended to form along the ripples
of the sound waves where matter was slightly denser, and the pull of
gravity was slightly stronger. The ripples preserve a picture of the
universe when it was only about one million years old and fit well with
astronomers' ideas of how the universe, which started smooth and
uniform, became lumpy with stars, gas clouds and other celestial
objects. Two teams of researchers analyzing the locations of thousands
of galaxies from two sections of the sky reported similar findings on
the sound waves at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society here.
Earlier research had found signs of the ripples, but "we regard this as
smoking-gun evidence," said Dr. Daniel Eisenstein of the University of
Arizona, lead investigator of one of the teams. "The important picture
we have of the universe is hanging together amazingly well," said Dr.
Martin Rees, a professor of cosmology and astrophysics at Cambridge
University, who was not involved with either team. "The standard picture
is firming up."

SDR: It is unfortunate that human beings almost
never consider how their prejudiced points of view
(reference) affect the interpretation of what they're looking at.
(When one looks at this same evidence from the point of view that ours
is an
imploding universe this same evidence is as supportive if not more so
of that conclusion than it is
of the notion that it supports the notion of a Big Bang.)


If you can quantitatively describe the observations with
your idea of an imploding universe, feel free to show your work.

I don't know if you've bumped into SD Rodrian before...
URL:http://members.aol.com/prebigbang/
URL:http://www.forum-one.org/new-2208029-4343.html
URL:http://members.aol.com/bookspine/
.... quite a few hits on google with "SD Rodrian"
.... same of groups.google
Forewarned is forarmed.
David A. Smith
.
User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: Vestiges of Big Bang Waves Are Reported 17 Jan 2005 05:50:25 AM
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:

Dear Bjoern Feuerbacher:

"Bjoern Feuerbacher" <feuerbac@thphys.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in message
news:cs8d8d$ju2$1@news.urz.uni-heidelberg.de...

SDR wrote:

Vestiges of Big Bang Waves Are Reported

SAN DIEGO, Jan. 11 - Astronomers reported on Tuesday that they had
convincingly seen, in the patterns of galaxies scattered across the
night sky, the vestiges of sound waves that rumbled through the universe
after the Big Bang. Stars and galaxies tended to form along the ripples
of the sound waves where matter was slightly denser, and the pull of
gravity was slightly stronger. The ripples preserve a picture of the
universe when it was only about one million years old and fit well with
astronomers' ideas of how the universe, which started smooth and
uniform, became lumpy with stars, gas clouds and other celestial
objects. Two teams of researchers analyzing the locations of thousands
of galaxies from two sections of the sky reported similar findings on
the sound waves at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society here.
Earlier research had found signs of the ripples, but "we regard this as
smoking-gun evidence," said Dr. Daniel Eisenstein of the University of
Arizona, lead investigator of one of the teams. "The important picture
we have of the universe is hanging together amazingly well," said Dr.
Martin Rees, a professor of cosmology and astrophysics at Cambridge
University, who was not involved with either team. "The standard picture
is firming up."

SDR: It is unfortunate that human beings almost
never consider how their prejudiced points of view
(reference) affect the interpretation of what they're looking at.
(When one looks at this same evidence from the point of view that ours
is an
imploding universe this same evidence is as supportive if not more so
of that conclusion than it is
of the notion that it supports the notion of a Big Bang.)


If you can quantitatively describe the observations with
your idea of an imploding universe, feel free to show your work.



I don't know if you've bumped into SD Rodrian before...
URL:http://members.aol.com/prebigbang/
URL:http://www.forum-one.org/new-2208029-4343.html
URL:http://members.aol.com/bookspine/
... quite a few hits on google with "SD Rodrian"
... same of groups.google

Forewarned is forarmed.

Thanks. I already noticed myseld that he is simply
a loudmouth with no idea of science or what the BBT
actually says. Nothing new...
Bye,
Bjoern
.




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