Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else.


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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Ian Parker"
Date: 04 Oct 2005 10:10:21 AM
Object: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else.
What is a Von Neumann machine? It is a machine that will make itself.
It is an awesome prospect. It means that if we use the materials in
space- the Moon or asteroids. NASA has looked at the Moon although in
many ways asteroids are a better bet as they have little gravitational
potential and a velocity of a few m/s is sufficient to break free.
With a VN machine large structures in space become immediately
practicable.
1) A space based solar energy system which beams microwaves down to
Earth.
2) Someone has considered reversing global warming by placing aluminum
foil in orbit. This could in fact be developed into a sophisticated
system for climate control with some areas heated and others cooled.
3) Some time ago I introduced a thread on the "nonsense of manned space
flight" I went on to say however in later postings that if a manned
trip to Mars could be accomplished at the sort of cost that we
associate with sponsorship people should be allowed tp go ahead. With a
VN machine building your base on Mars, and even building a spacecraft
which would be parked in LEO, you are within reach of sponsorship - Eat
one Mars bar a day!
4) Large structures for the scientific exploration of space become
possible. One thing which I have in mind, you might call it a pet
hobbyhorse is a large scale array of LISA type spacecraft, one which
could produce a gravitational image similar to the COBE 2.7K radiation.
It could identify sources of gravitational waves with definite objects.
The present LISA project will produce a Fourier spectrum but will not
identify directions in any way.
5) The perfection of a VN would have enormous military consequences. In
fact space based lasers could strike anywhere on Earth and would be an
alternative to air strikes.
Is it possible to make such a thing? In this reference NASA analyzes
the idea.
http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/selfRepNASA.html
As you can see a considerable amount of work has been done on the
topic. NASA has in fact gone so far as to produce details of the number
of separate parts that would be required. The latest paper I can access
is 1990. After that the paper chase seems to grow cold. All biological
organisms are Von Neumann machines which reproduce themselves until
resources are exhausted. Modern manufacturing is performed by digitally
controlled machine tools which have associated with them something akin
to a genetic code. A VN machine simply involves closing the loop. A
bacterium has a complexity of about 10 million bits. Simple assembly
systems with chemicals provided could give a complexity of a million
bits.
A lunar system which would manufacture chemicals is envisaged at around
10 billion bits. The design discusses the properties of lunar basalt
(asteroid material is not that different, although outer asteroids
contain considerable quantities of water in the form of ice).
Von Neumann machines are associated with nanotechnology. Certainly
nanotechnology will reduce the weight of any system. NASA originally
estimated 100 tons for the initial seed. Nanotechnology might be able
to reduce this.
The NASA papers talk about melting Lunar basalt using solar energy. An
alternative to basalt might well be lunar dust. When terrestrial rocks
are pulverized the resultant powder consists of single crystals of pure
compound. Lunar dust is, presumably, the same and so nano sorting will
produce pure chemicals. Helium 3 could also be extracted, as far as
global energy needs were concerned we would not need to do this, but if
we were going long distances in space it would be extremely useful.
The next reference considers Von Neumann machines in a more biological
way.
http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/selfRepJBIS.html
I have a number of specific points on this paper, I wonder why if the
diamond structure is being made by a pseudobiological process, enzymes
cannot be used to place impurities on the diamond thereby making it
into a semiconductor.
On the question of robust safety is concerned, one route would be to
have the circle almost complete but not quite. If you were making
semiconductors and were let us say using synchrotron radiation, the
availability of Niobium Tin for superconductors would be a limiting
factor.
There has been a thread about the purpose of NASA. As I have said above
the paper trail goes cold after 1990. What has happened?
1) Has the project been abandoned?
2) Is is being carried on in secret?
VN technology will have a profound effect on our civilization. It is
perhaps the most important thing NASA has ever done. If a country were
to posses a VN machine which other countries lacked that country would
have a hold over all the others. Conventional military weapons would be
impotent against a massive space based strike facility. Economically
all our energy problems could be solved. Dependence on Middle Eastern
oil would be a thing of the past.
If Russia or China were to develop such a system the consequences for
the US (and the EU) would be serious.
.

User: "vincent p. norris"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 05 Oct 2005 07:23:29 PM

What is a Von Neumann machine? It is a machine that will make itself.

Can you tell me why it's called that? I'm familiar with VN in a
superficial, non-mathematical way, but this is the first I've heard of
a VN machine. Did he first suggest it?
vince norris
.

User: "Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 18 Oct 2005 07:51:24 PM
Ian Parker wrote:

Is it possible to make such a thing? In this reference NASA analyzes
the idea.
http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/selfRepNASA.html
As you can see a considerable amount of work has been done on the
topic. NASA has in fact gone so far as to produce details of the number
of separate parts that would be required. The latest paper I can access
is 1990. After that the paper chase seems to grow cold.

COMMENT:
Von Neumann machines go back as an idea to Von Neumann in the mid
1950's, in a book he never got around to finishing before he died of
cancer, and which was published postumously.
The first person I'm aware of to take the concept seriously for
technical applications was atom bomb engineer Theodor B. Taylor, who
proposed seeding the moon with (large) von Neumann machines as part of
a space project, in 1977. Taylor noted somewhere along the way that von
Neumann machines could be programmed to make anything you like (so long
as the elements are on hand) in addition to replicating themselves.
Thus, they are the robot equivalent of genetically engineered "pharm"
animals. Taylor called them "Santa Claus machines." In goes moon rock
and sunlight, and out comes steak and eggs.
Now comes the dark side. K. Eric Drexler, originally a space enthusiast
and L5 guy in the late 70's, comes across the idea of Taylor's big von
Neumann machines, and realizes they don't have to be large lumbering
clunky things, but can be made of clumps of atoms, much like most of
biology (which as you point out, is made of natural biological carbon
von Neumann machines). An inspirationw as Feynman's 1959 insite that
machines can be made as small as you like, until you get to atomic
scale.
So in 1980 Drexler proposes nano-sized Taylor-von Neumann machines not
only for space, but also for Earth useage. He calles these
self-replicating machines "assemblers" and co-opts a word that was then
floating around ("nanotechnology") to describe it all. Drexler's book
_Engines of Creation_ (1986) is a far-sighted look at both this small
self-replicating technology, and the bad things that could happen if it
went wrong (self-replicating small assemblers could reduce the
biosphere to nothing but self-replicating assemblers--- grey goo.)
And that's where we are. Except that since 1986 and Drexler,
"nanotechnology" has been coopted yet again to describe any kind of
engineering in the sub-micron scale, and no self-replication is
required. The government and the military are spending a lot of money
on sub-micron devices. Drexler and Taylor's ideas, still far ahead of
their time, are currently ignored in the mainstream. But their time
will come, as self-replication of these nano-devices becomes more and
more within their capabilities.
SBH
.

User: "Charlie Springer"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 05 Oct 2005 11:41:12 PM
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:10:21 -0700, Ian Parker wrote
(in article <1128438621.672527.166180@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):

5) The perfection of a VN would have enormous military consequences. In
fact space based lasers could strike anywhere on Earth and would be an
alternative to air strikes.

We already use them in combat. They are typically about 5' 10", bipedal and
autonomous. Big improvements could be made in power source and
heat/environmental tolerance and communication/navigation and general
quantitative sensor interface as well as processing speed.
-- Charlie Springer
.
User: "Jim McCauley"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 10 Oct 2005 11:06:08 AM
"Charlie Springer" <RAM@regnirps.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BF69F8F800101BB1F02845B0@news.nw.centurytel.net...

We already use them in combat. They are typically about 5' 10", bipedal

and

autonomous. Big improvements could be made in power source and
heat/environmental tolerance and communication/navigation and general
quantitative sensor interface as well as processing speed.

Nah. Meat machines are massively parallel, not like those Von Neumann
bit-suckers.
However, your comments on their weaknesses are germane. Note also that
cleaning/lubrication by means of ethanol compounds seriously degrades
performance under all conditions.
Jim McCauley
.
User: "David M. Palmer"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 12 Oct 2005 11:06:36 PM
In article <11kl4bi3ll9g046@corp.supernews.com>, Jim McCauley
<jem@frii.net> wrote:

"Charlie Springer" <RAM@regnirps.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BF69F8F800101BB1F02845B0@news.nw.centurytel.net...

We already use them in combat. They are typically about 5' 10", bipedal

and

autonomous. Big improvements could be made in power source and
heat/environmental tolerance and communication/navigation and general
quantitative sensor interface as well as processing speed.


Nah. Meat machines are massively parallel, not like those Von Neumann
bit-suckers.

Von Neumann machines are replicating machines. You are thinking of Von
Neumann architecture computers (memory space used for both code and
data.)
Same guy, two different ideas. Like the difference between a Turing
machine and a Turing test.
--
David M. Palmer
(formerly @clark.net, @ematic.com)
.
User: "Eric Chomko"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 17 Oct 2005 12:30:24 PM
David M. Palmer (
) wrote:
: In article <11kl4bi3ll9g046@corp.supernews.com>, Jim McCauley
: <jem@frii.net> wrote:
: > "Charlie Springer" <RAM@regnirps.com> wrote in message
: > news:0001HW.BF69F8F800101BB1F02845B0@news.nw.centurytel.net...
: > > We already use them in combat. They are typically about 5' 10", bipedal
: > and
: > > autonomous. Big improvements could be made in power source and
: > > heat/environmental tolerance and communication/navigation and general
: > > quantitative sensor interface as well as processing speed.
: >
: > Nah. Meat machines are massively parallel, not like those Von Neumann
: > bit-suckers.
: Von Neumann machines are replicating machines. You are thinking of Von
: Neumann architecture computers (memory space used for both code and
: data.)
: Same guy, two different ideas. Like the difference between a Turing
: machine and a Turing test.
Not according to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine
It appears that "Von Neumann machine" has two meanings. If you think this
is wrong , perhaps you can get Wikipedia to chanhe it?
Eric
: --
: David M. Palmer
(formerly @clark.net, @ematic.com)
.
User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 17 Oct 2005 12:49:39 PM
"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
news:dj0n3g$d6p$4@news.ums.edu...
| David M. Palmer (
) wrote:
| : In article <11kl4bi3ll9g046@corp.supernews.com>, Jim McCauley
| : <jem@frii.net> wrote:
|
| : > "Charlie Springer" <RAM@regnirps.com> wrote in message
| : > news:0001HW.BF69F8F800101BB1F02845B0@news.nw.centurytel.net...
| : > > We already use them in combat. They are typically about 5' 10",
bipedal
| : > and
| : > > autonomous. Big improvements could be made in power source and
| : > > heat/environmental tolerance and communication/navigation and
general
| : > > quantitative sensor interface as well as processing speed.
| : >
| : > Nah. Meat machines are massively parallel, not like those Von
Neumann
| : > bit-suckers.
|
| : Von Neumann machines are replicating machines. You are thinking of
Von
| : Neumann architecture computers (memory space used for both code and
| : data.)
|
| : Same guy, two different ideas. Like the difference between a Turing
| : machine and a Turing test.
|
| Not according to wikipedia:
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine
The Turing Machine is an abstract machine introduced in 1936 by Alan
Turing to give a mathematically precise definition of algorithm or
'mechanical procedure'. The concept is still widely used in theoretical
computer science, especially in complexity theory and the theory of
computation.
A von Neumann machine is a model created by John von Neumann for a
computing machine that uses a single storage structure to hold both the
set of instructions on how to perform the computation and the data
required or generated by the computation. Most modern computers use this
von Neumann architecture. Computers using this architecture are said to
be "von Neumann machines."
John von Neumann (Neumann János) (December 28, 1903 – February 8, 1957)
was a Hungarian-born mathematician who made important contributions in
quantum physics, functional analysis, set theory, computer science,
economics and many other mathematical fields.
János von Neumann—János was anglicised to John after he took up
residence in the United States in the 1930s.
Alan Mathison Turing (June 23, 1912 – June 7, 1954) was a British
mathematician, logician, and cryptographer.
Turing is often considered to be a father of modern computer science.
Same meat, different gravy.
Androcles.
|
| It appears that "Von Neumann machine" has two meanings. If you think
this
| is wrong , perhaps you can get Wikipedia to chanhe it?
|
| Eric
|
| : --
| : David M. Palmer
(formerly @clark.net,
@ematic.com)
.
User: "Eric Chomko"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 18 Oct 2005 01:57:36 PM
Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
: news:dj0n3g$d6p$4@news.ums.edu...
: | David M. Palmer (
) wrote:
: | : In article <11kl4bi3ll9g046@corp.supernews.com>, Jim McCauley
: | : <jem@frii.net> wrote:
: |
: | : > "Charlie Springer" <RAM@regnirps.com> wrote in message
: | : > news:0001HW.BF69F8F800101BB1F02845B0@news.nw.centurytel.net...
: | : > > We already use them in combat. They are typically about 5' 10",
: bipedal
: | : > and
: | : > > autonomous. Big improvements could be made in power source and
: | : > > heat/environmental tolerance and communication/navigation and
: general
: | : > > quantitative sensor interface as well as processing speed.
: | : >
: | : > Nah. Meat machines are massively parallel, not like those Von
: Neumann
: | : > bit-suckers.
: |
: | : Von Neumann machines are replicating machines. You are thinking of
: Von
: | : Neumann architecture computers (memory space used for both code and
: | : data.)
: |
: | : Same guy, two different ideas. Like the difference between a Turing
: | : machine and a Turing test.
: |
: | Not according to wikipedia:
: | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine
: The Turing Machine is an abstract machine introduced in 1936 by Alan
: Turing to give a mathematically precise definition of algorithm or
: 'mechanical procedure'. The concept is still widely used in theoretical
: computer science, especially in complexity theory and the theory of
: computation.
: A von Neumann machine is a model created by John von Neumann for a
: computing machine that uses a single storage structure to hold both the
: set of instructions on how to perform the computation and the data
: required or generated by the computation. Most modern computers use this
: von Neumann architecture. Computers using this architecture are said to
: be "von Neumann machines."
Couldn't Von Neumann be credited with creating "objects", in a very basic
sense, from the object-oriented paradigm? What is an object if not an
entity that encapsulates the data and its associated code?
: John von Neumann (Neumann János) (December 28, 1903 – February 8, 1957)
: was a Hungarian-born mathematician who made important contributions in
: quantum physics, functional analysis, set theory, computer science,
: economics and many other mathematical fields.
: János von Neumann—János was anglicised to John after he took up
: residence in the United States in the 1930s.
: Alan Mathison Turing (June 23, 1912 – June 7, 1954) was a British
: mathematician, logician, and cryptographer.
: Turing is often considered to be a father of modern computer science.
: Same meat, different gravy.
Both were pioneers in the field, and as a computer science major in
college, I recall both were studied in great detail.
Eric
: Androcles.
: |
: | It appears that "Von Neumann machine" has two meanings. If you think
: this
: | is wrong , perhaps you can get Wikipedia to chanhe it?
: |
: | Eric
: |
: | : --
: | : David M. Palmer
(formerly @clark.net,
: @ematic.com)
.
User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 18 Oct 2005 02:52:24 PM
"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
news:dj3gj0$40o$2@news.ums.edu...
| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
|
| : "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
| : news:dj0n3g$d6p$4@news.ums.edu...
| : | David M. Palmer (dmpalmer@email.com) wrote:
| : | : In article <11kl4bi3ll9g046@corp.supernews.com>, Jim McCauley
| : | : <jem@frii.net> wrote:
| : |
| : | : > "Charlie Springer" <RAM@regnirps.com> wrote in message
| : | : > news:0001HW.BF69F8F800101BB1F02845B0@news.nw.centurytel.net...
| : | : > > We already use them in combat. They are typically about 5'
10",
| : bipedal
| : | : > and
| : | : > > autonomous. Big improvements could be made in power source
and
| : | : > > heat/environmental tolerance and communication/navigation
and
| : general
| : | : > > quantitative sensor interface as well as processing speed.
| : | : >
| : | : > Nah. Meat machines are massively parallel, not like those Von
| : Neumann
| : | : > bit-suckers.
| : |
| : | : Von Neumann machines are replicating machines. You are thinking
of
| : Von
| : | : Neumann architecture computers (memory space used for both code
and
| : | : data.)
| : |
| : | : Same guy, two different ideas. Like the difference between a
Turing
| : | : machine and a Turing test.
| : |
| : | Not according to wikipedia:
| : | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine
|
|
| : The Turing Machine is an abstract machine introduced in 1936 by Alan
| : Turing to give a mathematically precise definition of algorithm or
| : 'mechanical procedure'. The concept is still widely used in
theoretical
| : computer science, especially in complexity theory and the theory of
| : computation.
|
| : A von Neumann machine is a model created by John von Neumann for a
| : computing machine that uses a single storage structure to hold both
the
| : set of instructions on how to perform the computation and the data
| : required or generated by the computation. Most modern computers use
this
| : von Neumann architecture. Computers using this architecture are said
to
| : be "von Neumann machines."
|
| Couldn't Von Neumann be credited with creating "objects", in a very
basic
| sense, from the object-oriented paradigm? What is an object if not an
| entity that encapsulates the data and its associated code?
|
| : John von Neumann (Neumann János) (December 28, 1903 – February 8,
1957)
| : was a Hungarian-born mathematician who made important contributions
in
| : quantum physics, functional analysis, set theory, computer science,
| : economics and many other mathematical fields.
|
| : János von Neumann—János was anglicised to John after he took up
| : residence in the United States in the 1930s.
|
| : Alan Mathison Turing (June 23, 1912 – June 7, 1954) was a British
| : mathematician, logician, and cryptographer.
|
| : Turing is often considered to be a father of modern computer
science.
|
| : Same meat, different gravy.
|
| Both were pioneers in the field, and as a computer science major in
| college, I recall both were studied in great detail.
|
| Eric
|
| : Androcles.
I'm only quoting wackypedia. I certainly was required to study Turing,
his work was invaluable in cracking the German "Enigma" code of
WW II. John von Neumann I read about in a popular magazine.
There is a certain amount of parochial envy displayed by the USA
in having to have the best brains on their team, and the greatest
achievements. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not putting down
the USA, they have made some great achievements and had some
great scientists, but they can't be the best at everything. They will
soon fall behind as they allow more and more socialism into their
society.
The REAL father (or grandfather I suppose) of computing (I won't say
science, it's a technology, not a study of Nature) was George Boole,
you won't get far without Boolean algebra.
http://www.kerryr.net/pioneers/boole.htm
Charles Babbage built fantastic differential engines, the forerunner
of the analogue computer.
http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Babbage.html
Androcles
.
User: "Eric Chomko"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 18 Oct 2005 03:49:27 PM
Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
: news:dj3gj0$40o$2@news.ums.edu...
: | Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: |
: | : "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
: | : news:dj0n3g$d6p$4@news.ums.edu...
: | : | David M. Palmer (dmpalmer@email.com) wrote:
: | : | : In article <11kl4bi3ll9g046@corp.supernews.com>, Jim McCauley
: | : | : <jem@frii.net> wrote:
: | : |
: | : | : > "Charlie Springer" <RAM@regnirps.com> wrote in message
: | : | : > news:0001HW.BF69F8F800101BB1F02845B0@news.nw.centurytel.net...
: | : | : > > We already use them in combat. They are typically about 5'
: 10",
: | : bipedal
: | : | : > and
: | : | : > > autonomous. Big improvements could be made in power source
: and
: | : | : > > heat/environmental tolerance and communication/navigation
: and
: | : general
: | : | : > > quantitative sensor interface as well as processing speed.
: | : | : >
: | : | : > Nah. Meat machines are massively parallel, not like those Von
: | : Neumann
: | : | : > bit-suckers.
: | : |
: | : | : Von Neumann machines are replicating machines. You are thinking
: of
: | : Von
: | : | : Neumann architecture computers (memory space used for both code
: and
: | : | : data.)
: | : |
: | : | : Same guy, two different ideas. Like the difference between a
: Turing
: | : | : machine and a Turing test.
: | : |
: | : | Not according to wikipedia:
: | : | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine
: |
: |
: | : The Turing Machine is an abstract machine introduced in 1936 by Alan
: | : Turing to give a mathematically precise definition of algorithm or
: | : 'mechanical procedure'. The concept is still widely used in
: theoretical
: | : computer science, especially in complexity theory and the theory of
: | : computation.
: |
: | : A von Neumann machine is a model created by John von Neumann for a
: | : computing machine that uses a single storage structure to hold both
: the
: | : set of instructions on how to perform the computation and the data
: | : required or generated by the computation. Most modern computers use
: this
: | : von Neumann architecture. Computers using this architecture are said
: to
: | : be "von Neumann machines."
: |
: | Couldn't Von Neumann be credited with creating "objects", in a very
: basic
: | sense, from the object-oriented paradigm? What is an object if not an
: | entity that encapsulates the data and its associated code?
: |
: | : John von Neumann (Neumann János) (December 28, 1903 – February 8,
: 1957)
: | : was a Hungarian-born mathematician who made important contributions
: in
: | : quantum physics, functional analysis, set theory, computer science,
: | : economics and many other mathematical fields.
: |
: | : János von Neumann—János was anglicised to John after he took up
: | : residence in the United States in the 1930s.
: |
: | : Alan Mathison Turing (June 23, 1912 – June 7, 1954) was a British
: | : mathematician, logician, and cryptographer.
: |
: | : Turing is often considered to be a father of modern computer
: science.
: |
: | : Same meat, different gravy.
: |
: | Both were pioneers in the field, and as a computer science major in
: | college, I recall both were studied in great detail.
: |
: | Eric
: |
: | : Androcles.
: I'm only quoting wackypedia. I certainly was required to study Turing,
: his work was invaluable in cracking the German "Enigma" code of
: WW II. John von Neumann I read about in a popular magazine.
: There is a certain amount of parochial envy displayed by the USA
: in having to have the best brains on their team, and the greatest
: achievements.
All countries produce propaganda that states, "our country is great based
upon our great people". Even yours.
: Don't misunderstand me, I'm not putting down
: the USA, they have made some great achievements and had some
: great scientists, but they can't be the best at everything. They will
: soon fall behind as they allow more and more socialism into their
: society.
No offense taken as I am pretty sure I well balanced WRT where the USA's
greatness vs. her shortcomings lie having lived in a foriegn country. For
example, our public transportation system is Second World.
: The REAL father (or grandfather I suppose) of computing (I won't say
: science, it's a technology, not a study of Nature) was George Boole,
: you won't get far without Boolean algebra.
The problem their is that there is no "Boole Machine" of which Boole
created per se. Computers need an engineering component not just
mathematics. Babbage, on the other hand, is all machine and no
definitive theorectical basis such as Boolean Algebra.
: http://www.kerryr.net/pioneers/boole.htm
: Charles Babbage built fantastic differential engines, the forerunner
: of the analogue computer.
: http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Babbage.html
Which goes to show you that having a single "father" is difficult WRT
computers.
Eric
: Androcles
.
User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 18 Oct 2005 07:12:19 PM
"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
news:dj3n4n$b14$1@news.ums.edu...
| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
|
| : "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
| : news:dj3gj0$40o$2@news.ums.edu...
| : | Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
| : |
| : | : "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
| : | : news:dj0n3g$d6p$4@news.ums.edu...
| : | : | David M. Palmer (dmpalmer@email.com) wrote:
| : | : | : In article <11kl4bi3ll9g046@corp.supernews.com>, Jim
McCauley
| : | : | : <jem@frii.net> wrote:
| : | : |
| : | : | : > "Charlie Springer" <RAM@regnirps.com> wrote in message
| : | : | : >
news:0001HW.BF69F8F800101BB1F02845B0@news.nw.centurytel.net...
| : | : | : > > We already use them in combat. They are typically about
5'
| : 10",
| : | : bipedal
| : | : | : > and
| : | : | : > > autonomous. Big improvements could be made in power
source
| : and
| : | : | : > > heat/environmental tolerance and
communication/navigation
| : and
| : | : general
| : | : | : > > quantitative sensor interface as well as processing
speed.
| : | : | : >
| : | : | : > Nah. Meat machines are massively parallel, not like those
Von
| : | : Neumann
| : | : | : > bit-suckers.
| : | : |
| : | : | : Von Neumann machines are replicating machines. You are
thinking
| : of
| : | : Von
| : | : | : Neumann architecture computers (memory space used for both
code
| : and
| : | : | : data.)
| : | : |
| : | : | : Same guy, two different ideas. Like the difference between
a
| : Turing
| : | : | : machine and a Turing test.
| : | : |
| : | : | Not according to wikipedia:
| : | : | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine
| : |
| : |
| : | : The Turing Machine is an abstract machine introduced in 1936 by
Alan
| : | : Turing to give a mathematically precise definition of algorithm
or
| : | : 'mechanical procedure'. The concept is still widely used in
| : theoretical
| : | : computer science, especially in complexity theory and the theory
of
| : | : computation.
| : |
| : | : A von Neumann machine is a model created by John von Neumann for
a
| : | : computing machine that uses a single storage structure to hold
both
| : the
| : | : set of instructions on how to perform the computation and the
data
| : | : required or generated by the computation. Most modern computers
use
| : this
| : | : von Neumann architecture. Computers using this architecture are
said
| : to
| : | : be "von Neumann machines."
| : |
| : | Couldn't Von Neumann be credited with creating "objects", in a
very
| : basic
| : | sense, from the object-oriented paradigm? What is an object if not
an
| : | entity that encapsulates the data and its associated code?
| : |
| : | : John von Neumann (Neumann János) (December 28, 1903 – February
8,
| : 1957)
| : | : was a Hungarian-born mathematician who made important
contributions
| : in
| : | : quantum physics, functional analysis, set theory, computer
science,
| : | : economics and many other mathematical fields.
| : |
| : | : János von Neumann—János was anglicised to John after he took up
| : | : residence in the United States in the 1930s.
| : |
| : | : Alan Mathison Turing (June 23, 1912 – June 7, 1954) was a
British
| : | : mathematician, logician, and cryptographer.
| : |
| : | : Turing is often considered to be a father of modern computer
| : science.
| : |
| : | : Same meat, different gravy.
| : |
| : | Both were pioneers in the field, and as a computer science major
in
| : | college, I recall both were studied in great detail.
| : |
| : | Eric
| : |
| : | : Androcles.
|
| : I'm only quoting wackypedia. I certainly was required to study
Turing,
| : his work was invaluable in cracking the German "Enigma" code of
| : WW II. John von Neumann I read about in a popular magazine.
| : There is a certain amount of parochial envy displayed by the USA
| : in having to have the best brains on their team, and the greatest
| : achievements.
|
| All countries produce propaganda that states, "our country is great
based
| upon our great people". Even yours.
Yes indeed. I have however lived in the USA for 20 years and know
its attitudes very well. If the pot is calling the kettle black, this
pot admits
to being black as well.
Unfortunately English pride has fallen to the level of waving the flag
for
the soccer team. We no longer have a ship building industry, an aircraft
industry or even a car industry.
| : Don't misunderstand me, I'm not putting down
| : the USA, they have made some great achievements and had some
| : great scientists, but they can't be the best at everything. They
will
| : soon fall behind as they allow more and more socialism into their
| : society.
|
| No offense taken as I am pretty sure I well balanced WRT where the
USA's
| greatness vs. her shortcomings lie having lived in a foriegn country.
For
| example, our public transportation system is Second World.
Yep... If you don't drive yourself then you don't go. I used the bus
once to go
to CMU in Pittsburgh when my car was in for service. Never again.
Your roads could use a few roundabouts too. I hated taking the wrong
exit
and having to go for miles to get back to the correct one. Those clover
leaves
are a killer :-)
And all those stop signs... one on every corner. If Britain did that
it would be total gridlock in no time.
| : The REAL father (or grandfather I suppose) of computing (I won't say
| : science, it's a technology, not a study of Nature) was George Boole,
| : you won't get far without Boolean algebra.
|
| The problem their is that there is no "Boole Machine" of which Boole
| created per se.
Steam isn't all that good for a calculator :-)
| Computers need an engineering component not just
| mathematics. Babbage, on the other hand, is all machine and no
| definitive theorectical basis such as Boolean Algebra.
|
| : http://www.kerryr.net/pioneers/boole.htm
| : Charles Babbage built fantastic differential engines, the forerunner
| : of the analogue computer.
| : http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Babbage.html
|
| Which goes to show you that having a single "father" is difficult WRT
| computers.
|
| Eric
True enough. Like the airliner, no one man does it all.
| : Androcles
|
|
|
|
.
User: "Eric Chomko"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 19 Oct 2005 02:15:24 PM
Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
[...]
: | All countries produce propaganda that states, "our country is great
: based
: | upon our great people". Even yours.
: Yes indeed. I have however lived in the USA for 20 years and know
: its attitudes very well. If the pot is calling the kettle black, this
: pot admits
: to being black as well.
: Unfortunately English pride has fallen to the level of waving the flag
: for
: the soccer team. We no longer have a ship building industry, an aircraft
: industry or even a car industry.
The CIA World Factbook sums it up:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html
: | : Don't misunderstand me, I'm not putting down
: | : the USA, they have made some great achievements and had some
: | : great scientists, but they can't be the best at everything. They
: will
: | : soon fall behind as they allow more and more socialism into their
: | : society.
: |
: | No offense taken as I am pretty sure I well balanced WRT where the
: USA's
: | greatness vs. her shortcomings lie having lived in a foriegn country.
: For
: | example, our public transportation system is Second World.
: Yep... If you don't drive yourself then you don't go. I used the bus
: once to go
: to CMU in Pittsburgh when my car was in for service. Never again.
: Your roads could use a few roundabouts too. I hated taking the wrong
: exit
: and having to go for miles to get back to the correct one. Those clover
: leaves
: are a killer :-)
: And all those stop signs... one on every corner. If Britain did that
: it would be total gridlock in no time.
"Sign, sign, everywhere a sign, blocking up the scenery..." - Five Man
Electric Band.
: | : The REAL father (or grandfather I suppose) of computing (I won't say
: | : science, it's a technology, not a study of Nature) was George Boole,
: | : you won't get far without Boolean algebra.
: |
: | The problem their is that there is no "Boole Machine" of which Boole
: | created per se.
: Steam isn't all that good for a calculator :-)
Even a machine on paper. Had Boole used the common logical symbols for
inverter (NOT), AND gate and OR gate, and expressed that a machine could
be constructed based upon his algebra that would have sufficed. Instead,
Boole was purely mathematical. Nothing wrong with that but it lacks the
engineering aspect.
: | Computers need an engineering component not just
: | mathematics. Babbage, on the other hand, is all machine and no
: | definitive theorectical basis such as Boolean Algebra.
: |
: | : http://www.kerryr.net/pioneers/boole.htm
: | : Charles Babbage built fantastic differential engines, the forerunner
: | : of the analogue computer.
: | : http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Babbage.html
: |
: | Which goes to show you that having a single "father" is difficult WRT
: | computers.
: |
: True enough. Like the airliner, no one man does it all.
Though the Wrights tend to get creedit for being the first. Langley sure
as heck deserves something as well as others.
Eric
: | : Androcles
: |
: |
: |
: |
.
User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 19 Oct 2005 06:51:15 PM
"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
news:dj660c$2l03$4@news.ums.edu...
| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
|
| : "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
| [...]
| : | All countries produce propaganda that states, "our country is
great
| : based
| : | upon our great people". Even yours.
|
| : Yes indeed. I have however lived in the USA for 20 years and know
| : its attitudes very well. If the pot is calling the kettle black,
this
| : pot admits
| : to being black as well.
| : Unfortunately English pride has fallen to the level of waving the
flag
| : for
| : the soccer team. We no longer have a ship building industry, an
aircraft
| : industry or even a car industry.
|
| The CIA World Factbook sums it up:
| http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html
|
| : | : Don't misunderstand me, I'm not putting down
| : | : the USA, they have made some great achievements and had some
| : | : great scientists, but they can't be the best at everything. They
| : will
| : | : soon fall behind as they allow more and more socialism into
their
| : | : society.
| : |
| : | No offense taken as I am pretty sure I well balanced WRT where the
| : USA's
| : | greatness vs. her shortcomings lie having lived in a foriegn
country.
| : For
| : | example, our public transportation system is Second World.
|
| : Yep... If you don't drive yourself then you don't go. I used the bus
| : once to go
| : to CMU in Pittsburgh when my car was in for service. Never again.
| : Your roads could use a few roundabouts too. I hated taking the wrong
| : exit
| : and having to go for miles to get back to the correct one. Those
clover
| : leaves
| : are a killer :-)
| : And all those stop signs... one on every corner. If Britain did that
| : it would be total gridlock in no time.
|
| "Sign, sign, everywhere a sign, blocking up the scenery..." - Five Man
| Electric Band.
Uh huh. We all need signs, but too many are confusing. You look around
for the "No Turn On Red" amid the myriad others, by which time the light
is green and the car behind is honking. It's ok once you know the area,
but until you do you are mystified. If you are gonna have a light, add a
filter lane light with an arrow for pity's sake. When Swan sold his
patent
to Edison, you'd think a rich country would be able to afford a light
bulb
in place of a sign, they can afford the extra road for a useless
cloverleaf.
|
| : | : The REAL father (or grandfather I suppose) of computing (I won't
say
| : | : science, it's a technology, not a study of Nature) was George
Boole,
| : | : you won't get far without Boolean algebra.
| : |
| : | The problem their is that there is no "Boole Machine" of which
Boole
| : | created per se.
|
| : Steam isn't all that good for a calculator :-)
|
| Even a machine on paper. Had Boole used the common logical symbols for
| inverter (NOT), AND gate and OR gate, and expressed that a machine
could
| be constructed based upon his algebra that would have sufficed.
Instead,
| Boole was purely mathematical. Nothing wrong with that but it lacks
the
| engineering aspect.
Yes indeed, but it was Turing that invented paper RAM, a long strip of
contiguous 1's and 0's.
|
| : | Computers need an engineering component not just
| : | mathematics. Babbage, on the other hand, is all machine and no
| : | definitive theorectical basis such as Boolean Algebra.
|
|
| : |
| : | : http://www.kerryr.net/pioneers/boole.htm
| : | : Charles Babbage built fantastic differential engines, the
forerunner
| : | : of the analogue computer.
| : | : http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Babbage.html
| : |
| : | Which goes to show you that having a single "father" is difficult
WRT
| : | computers.
| : |
|
| : True enough. Like the airliner, no one man does it all.
|
| Though the Wrights tend to get creedit for being the first. Langley
sure
| as heck deserves something as well as others.
I don't think the Wrights had hydraulics, jet engines (Frank Whittle),
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/chasingthesun/innovators/fwhittle.html
autopilots, radio, radar, a movie and a drinks trolley or even windows
and doors. We can credit the movie to the Americans. :-)
I don't know who invented the door, but it's even more useful than
the wheel. :-)
Androcles.
.


User: "Morten Reistad"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 19 Oct 2005 04:00:11 AM
In article <Dbg5f.49184$U9.19358@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Androcles <Androcles@ MyPlace.org> wrote:


"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
news:dj3n4n$b14$1@news.ums.edu...
| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
| All countries produce propaganda that states, "our country is great
based
| upon our great people". Even yours.

Yes indeed. I have however lived in the USA for 20 years and know
its attitudes very well. If the pot is calling the kettle black, this
pot admits
to being black as well.
Unfortunately English pride has fallen to the level of waving the flag
for
the soccer team. We no longer have a ship building industry, an aircraft
industry or even a car industry.

Nor do you have an empire, a senior currency, military superiority
on the oceans. Just rubbing it in.


| : Don't misunderstand me, I'm not putting down
| : the USA, they have made some great achievements and had some
| : great scientists, but they can't be the best at everything. They
will
| : soon fall behind as they allow more and more socialism into their
| : society.

I wouldn't call it socialism, it is not focused enough.
The Texas-led republicans led by GWB has had a theme in their
campaigns to re-focus the redistribution programs to their
intended targets; and it can therefore be argued that GWB
is a socialist, as this will make the programs work as
the socialist tools they were intended as.
I am sure GWB would have a different opinion. Or perhaps not,
he is not up for reelection.
-- mrr
.
User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 19 Oct 2005 06:41:35 AM
"Morten Reistad" <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote in message
news:b605jd.6rk1.ln@via.reistad.priv.no...
| In article <Dbg5f.49184$U9.19358@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
| Androcles <Androcles@ MyPlace.org> wrote:
| >
| >"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
| >news:dj3n4n$b14$1@news.ums.edu...
| >| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
|
|
| >| All countries produce propaganda that states, "our country is great
| >based
| >| upon our great people". Even yours.
| >
| >Yes indeed. I have however lived in the USA for 20 years and know
| >its attitudes very well. If the pot is calling the kettle black, this
| >pot admits
| >to being black as well.
| >Unfortunately English pride has fallen to the level of waving the
flag
| >for
| >the soccer team. We no longer have a ship building industry, an
aircraft
| >industry or even a car industry.
|
| Nor do you have an empire, a senior currency, military superiority
| on the oceans. Just rubbing it in.
No empire. No military superiority. The pound is still the strongest
unit
of currency in the world. $1.80 to the £1.00. Just rubbing it in.
| >| : Don't misunderstand me, I'm not putting down
| >| : the USA, they have made some great achievements and had some
| >| : great scientists, but they can't be the best at everything. They
| >will
| >| : soon fall behind as they allow more and more socialism into their
| >| : society.
|
| I wouldn't call it socialism, it is not focused enough.
|
| The Texas-led republicans led by GWB has had a theme in their
| campaigns to re-focus the redistribution programs to their
| intended targets; and it can therefore be argued that GWB
| is a socialist, as this will make the programs work as
| the socialist tools they were intended as.
|
| I am sure GWB would have a different opinion. Or perhaps not,
| he is not up for reelection.
I'm sure those displaced from the Big Easy will not agree either.
Androcles.
| -- mrr
.
User: "Eric Chomko"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 19 Oct 2005 02:35:34 PM
Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: "Morten Reistad" <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote in message
: news:b605jd.6rk1.ln@via.reistad.priv.no...
: | In article <Dbg5f.49184$U9.19358@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
: | Androcles <Androcles@ MyPlace.org> wrote:
: | >
: | >"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
: | >news:dj3n4n$b14$1@news.ums.edu...
: | >| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: |
: |
: | >| All countries produce propaganda that states, "our country is great
: | >based
: | >| upon our great people". Even yours.
: | >
: | >Yes indeed. I have however lived in the USA for 20 years and know
: | >its attitudes very well. If the pot is calling the kettle black, this
: | >pot admits
: | >to being black as well.
: | >Unfortunately English pride has fallen to the level of waving the
: flag
: | >for
: | >the soccer team. We no longer have a ship building industry, an
: aircraft
: | >industry or even a car industry.
: |
: | Nor do you have an empire, a senior currency, military superiority
: | on the oceans. Just rubbing it in.
: No empire. No military superiority. The pound is still the strongest
: unit
: of currency in the world. $1.80 to the £1.00. Just rubbing it in.
Hell, at one time Tunisian dinars were $4 per dinar. Does that mean that
Tunisian currency is stronger than US's? No!
Until the term "petropound" enters the vernacular as the term
"petrodollar" is now, you don't have the strongest currency. Even BP buys
oil with dollars, of which they must have on reserve. THAT is called
dollar hegemony.
Eric
: | >| : Don't misunderstand me, I'm not putting down
: | >| : the USA, they have made some great achievements and had some
: | >| : great scientists, but they can't be the best at everything. They
: | >will
: | >| : soon fall behind as they allow more and more socialism into their
: | >| : society.
: |
: | I wouldn't call it socialism, it is not focused enough.
: |
: | The Texas-led republicans led by GWB has had a theme in their
: | campaigns to re-focus the redistribution programs to their
: | intended targets; and it can therefore be argued that GWB
: | is a socialist, as this will make the programs work as
: | the socialist tools they were intended as.
: |
: | I am sure GWB would have a different opinion. Or perhaps not,
: | he is not up for reelection.
: I'm sure those displaced from the Big Easy will not agree either.
: Androcles.
: | -- mrr
.
User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 19 Oct 2005 06:20:21 PM
"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
news:dj6766$2nvk$1@news.ums.edu...
| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
|
| : "Morten Reistad" <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote in message
| : news:b605jd.6rk1.ln@via.reistad.priv.no...
| : | In article <Dbg5f.49184$U9.19358@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
| : | Androcles <Androcles@ MyPlace.org> wrote:
| : | >
| : | >"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
| : | >news:dj3n4n$b14$1@news.ums.edu...
| : | >| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
| : |
| : |
| : | >| All countries produce propaganda that states, "our country is
great
| : | >based
| : | >| upon our great people". Even yours.
| : | >
| : | >Yes indeed. I have however lived in the USA for 20 years and know
| : | >its attitudes very well. If the pot is calling the kettle black,
this
| : | >pot admits
| : | >to being black as well.
| : | >Unfortunately English pride has fallen to the level of waving the
| : flag
| : | >for
| : | >the soccer team. We no longer have a ship building industry, an
| : aircraft
| : | >industry or even a car industry.
| : |
| : | Nor do you have an empire, a senior currency, military superiority
| : | on the oceans. Just rubbing it in.
|
| : No empire. No military superiority. The pound is still the strongest
| : unit
| : of currency in the world. $1.80 to the £1.00. Just rubbing it in.
|
| Hell, at one time Tunisian dinars were $4 per dinar. Does that mean
that
| Tunisian currency is stronger than US's? No!
|
| Until the term "petropound" enters the vernacular as the term
| "petrodollar" is now, you don't have the strongest currency. Even BP
buys
| oil with dollars, of which they must have on reserve. THAT is called
| dollar hegemony.
You still buy insurance, and not from Tunisia. Who paid when your
shuttles exploded? Who do you trust? Britain took your premiums, and
will
continue to take your premiums. You have no trade with Tunisia. Britain
has as many Mcdonald's, KFCs, Pizza Huts per 100,000 people as the USA.
What the UK has in the USA is not a closely guarded secret, but it's a
whole
lot more than you think or know. Do you have any idea how many Brits
died
in the WTC? They were not there as tourists.
The Americans are a highly industrious people, they work hard and are
very productive. They work for themselves and Britain, have since they
were picking cotton for the English textile industry and buying
Chippendale
furniture to copy.
The UK has invested wisely, and not in Tunisia.
The pound is still the strongest unit of currency in the world. $1.80 to
the £1.00.
We are but 4 states to your 50. Just rubbing it in.
Androcles.
.
User: "Eric Chomko"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 21 Oct 2005 02:08:32 PM
Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
: news:dj6766$2nvk$1@news.ums.edu...
: | Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: |
: | : "Morten Reistad" <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote in message
: | : news:b605jd.6rk1.ln@via.reistad.priv.no...
: | : | In article <Dbg5f.49184$U9.19358@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
: | : | Androcles <Androcles@ MyPlace.org> wrote:
: | : | >
: | : | >"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
: | : | >news:dj3n4n$b14$1@news.ums.edu...
: | : | >| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: | : |
: | : |
: | : | >| All countries produce propaganda that states, "our country is
: great
: | : | >based
: | : | >| upon our great people". Even yours.
: | : | >
: | : | >Yes indeed. I have however lived in the USA for 20 years and know
: | : | >its attitudes very well. If the pot is calling the kettle black,
: this
: | : | >pot admits
: | : | >to being black as well.
: | : | >Unfortunately English pride has fallen to the level of waving the
: | : flag
: | : | >for
: | : | >the soccer team. We no longer have a ship building industry, an
: | : aircraft
: | : | >industry or even a car industry.
: | : |
: | : | Nor do you have an empire, a senior currency, military superiority
: | : | on the oceans. Just rubbing it in.
: |
: | : No empire. No military superiority. The pound is still the strongest
: | : unit
: | : of currency in the world. $1.80 to the £1.00. Just rubbing it in.
: |
: | Hell, at one time Tunisian dinars were $4 per dinar. Does that mean
: that
: | Tunisian currency is stronger than US's? No!
: |
: | Until the term "petropound" enters the vernacular as the term
: | "petrodollar" is now, you don't have the strongest currency. Even BP
: buys
: | oil with dollars, of which they must have on reserve. THAT is called
: | dollar hegemony.
: You still buy insurance, and not from Tunisia. Who paid when your
: shuttles exploded? Who do you trust? Britain took your premiums, and
: will
: continue to take your premiums. You have no trade with Tunisia. Britain
: has as many Mcdonald's, KFCs, Pizza Huts per 100,000 people as the USA.
That doesn't equate to progress. Germany is cleaner than the UK and has a
better public transportation system. And better beer!
: What the UK has in the USA is not a closely guarded secret, but it's a
: whole
: lot more than you think or know. Do you have any idea how many Brits
: died
: in the WTC? They were not there as tourists.
Many people from different countries died in the WTC.
: The Americans are a highly industrious people, they work hard and are
: very productive. They work for themselves and Britain, have since they
: were picking cotton for the English textile industry and buying
: Chippendale
: furniture to copy.
What you mean to say is that we pattern our power elite after your own.
Spooks infiltrated with oil barons. MI/6 with BP like the CIA and Gulf.
But is that progress or only a better way for the haves to have more?
I don't doubt that the UK taught us how to run cocaine from years of
experience with opium. And before you write that off as criminals and the
like; I'm talking about our governments!
: The UK has invested wisely, and not in Tunisia.
: The pound is still the strongest unit of currency in the world. $1.80 to
: the £1.00.
: We are but 4 states to your 50. Just rubbing it in.
Nothing to rub in. Our country founded on the basis of the common man has
allowed the elites to take over based upon what they learned from their UK
counterparts. Be proud of that while inflation eats away at your slave
wages. Fool!
Nothing sillier than an overproud America other than an overproud Brit!
Eric
: Androcles.
.
User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 22 Oct 2005 12:47:36 PM
"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
news:djbebg$1od1$1@news.ums.edu...
| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
|
| : "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
| : news:dj6766$2nvk$1@news.ums.edu...
| : | Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
| : |
| : | : "Morten Reistad" <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote in message
| : | : news:b605jd.6rk1.ln@via.reistad.priv.no...
| : | : | In article <Dbg5f.49184$U9.19358@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
| : | : | Androcles <Androcles@ MyPlace.org> wrote:
| : | : | >
| : | : | >"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
| : | : | >news:dj3n4n$b14$1@news.ums.edu...
| : | : | >| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
| : | : |
| : | : |
| : | : | >| All countries produce propaganda that states, "our country
is
| : great
| : | : | >based
| : | : | >| upon our great people". Even yours.
| : | : | >
| : | : | >Yes indeed. I have however lived in the USA for 20 years and
know
| : | : | >its attitudes very well. If the pot is calling the kettle
black,
| : this
| : | : | >pot admits
| : | : | >to being black as well.
| : | : | >Unfortunately English pride has fallen to the level of waving
the
| : | : flag
| : | : | >for
| : | : | >the soccer team. We no longer have a ship building industry,
an
| : | : aircraft
| : | : | >industry or even a car industry.
| : | : |
| : | : | Nor do you have an empire, a senior currency, military
superiority
| : | : | on the oceans. Just rubbing it in.
| : |
| : | : No empire. No military superiority. The pound is still the
strongest
| : | : unit
| : | : of currency in the world. $1.80 to the £1.00. Just rubbing it
in.
| : |
| : | Hell, at one time Tunisian dinars were $4 per dinar. Does that
mean
| : that
| : | Tunisian currency is stronger than US's? No!
| : |
| : | Until the term "petropound" enters the vernacular as the term
| : | "petrodollar" is now, you don't have the strongest currency. Even
BP
| : buys
| : | oil with dollars, of which they must have on reserve. THAT is
called
| : | dollar hegemony.
|
|
| : You still buy insurance, and not from Tunisia. Who paid when your
| : shuttles exploded? Who do you trust? Britain took your premiums, and
| : will
| : continue to take your premiums. You have no trade with Tunisia.
Britain
| : has as many Mcdonald's, KFCs, Pizza Huts per 100,000 people as the
USA.
|
| That doesn't equate to progress. Germany is cleaner than the UK and
has a
| better public transportation system. And better beer!
I'd have to dispute on the beer, but that's a matter of taste. You can
keep your Budwieser, Miller, Rolling Rock and Coor's Light, not
distinguishable from the water down drainage of a dishwasher and
definitely doesn't equate to progress.
Wasn't one of your beers advertised as having no after-taste? It had
no before-taste either.
Samuel Adams isn't too bad, but no match for Theakston's Olde Peculiar.
|
| : What the UK has in the USA is not a closely guarded secret, but it's
a
| : whole
| : lot more than you think or know. Do you have any idea how many Brits
| : died
| : in the WTC? They were not there as tourists.
|
| Many people from different countries died in the WTC.
Yes.
|
| : The Americans are a highly industrious people, they work hard and
are
| : very productive. They work for themselves and Britain, have since
they
| : were picking cotton for the English textile industry and buying
| : Chippendale
| : furniture to copy.
|
| What you mean to say is that we pattern our power elite after your
own.
Of course I mean to say it. I prefer example, it's obviously carried
the correct message.
| Spooks infiltrated with oil barons. MI/6 with BP like the CIA and
Gulf.
| But is that progress or only a better way for the haves to have more?
|
| I don't doubt that the UK taught us how to run cocaine from years of
| experience with opium. And before you write that off as criminals and
the
| like; I'm talking about our governments!
You've found yet more examples.
What you mean to say is that you pattern your power elite after our own.
| : The UK has invested wisely, and not in Tunisia.
| : The pound is still the strongest unit of currency in the world.
$1.80 to
| : the £1.00.
| : We are but 4 states to your 50. Just rubbing it in.
|
| Nothing to rub in.
I was echoing something someone said to me.
| Our country founded on the basis of the common man has
| allowed the elites to take over based upon what they learned from
their UK
| counterparts. Be proud of that while inflation eats away at your slave
| wages. Fool!
Our country founded on the basis of the class system allowed the elites
to take over based on the Norman Conquest of 1066. Britain amde a lot
of money out of he slave trade, then you let them all go and now you've
got ghettos. Idiot!
BTW, if you want to get into a flame war, my Anglo-Saxon is better
than yours, fucking stupid *****.
About the best you can manage is '*****', '*****' and
'jerk-off'.
| Nothing sillier than an overproud America other than an overproud
Brit!
Agreed, so why start it? I began with facts, you reverted to flame.
Androcles.
.
User: "Eric Chomko"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 24 Oct 2005 12:27:06 PM
Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
: news:djbebg$1od1$1@news.ums.edu...
: | Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: |
: | : "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
: | : news:dj6766$2nvk$1@news.ums.edu...
: | : | Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: | : |
: | : | : "Morten Reistad" <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote in message
: | : | : news:b605jd.6rk1.ln@via.reistad.priv.no...
: | : | : | In article <Dbg5f.49184$U9.19358@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
: | : | : | Androcles <Androcles@ MyPlace.org> wrote:
: | : | : | >
: | : | : | >"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
: | : | : | >news:dj3n4n$b14$1@news.ums.edu...
: | : | : | >| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: | : | : |
: | : | : |
: | : | : | >| All countries produce propaganda that states, "our country
: is
: | : great
: | : | : | >based
: | : | : | >| upon our great people". Even yours.
: | : | : | >
: | : | : | >Yes indeed. I have however lived in the USA for 20 years and
: know
: | : | : | >its attitudes very well. If the pot is calling the kettle
: black,
: | : this
: | : | : | >pot admits
: | : | : | >to being black as well.
: | : | : | >Unfortunately English pride has fallen to the level of waving
: the
: | : | : flag
: | : | : | >for
: | : | : | >the soccer team. We no longer have a ship building industry,
: an
: | : | : aircraft
: | : | : | >industry or even a car industry.
: | : | : |
: | : | : | Nor do you have an empire, a senior currency, military
: superiority
: | : | : | on the oceans. Just rubbing it in.
: | : |
: | : | : No empire. No military superiority. The pound is still the
: strongest
: | : | : unit
: | : | : of currency in the world. $1.80 to the £1.00. Just rubbing it
: in.
: | : |
: | : | Hell, at one time Tunisian dinars were $4 per dinar. Does that
: mean
: | : that
: | : | Tunisian currency is stronger than US's? No!
: | : |
: | : | Until the term "petropound" enters the vernacular as the term
: | : | "petrodollar" is now, you don't have the strongest currency. Even
: BP
: | : buys
: | : | oil with dollars, of which they must have on reserve. THAT is
: called
: | : | dollar hegemony.
: |
: |
: | : You still buy insurance, and not from Tunisia. Who paid when your
: | : shuttles exploded? Who do you trust? Britain took your premiums, and
: | : will
: | : continue to take your premiums. You have no trade with Tunisia.
: Britain
: | : has as many Mcdonald's, KFCs, Pizza Huts per 100,000 people as the
: USA.
: |
: | That doesn't equate to progress. Germany is cleaner than the UK and
: has a
: | better public transportation system. And better beer!
: I'd have to dispute on the beer, but that's a matter of taste. You can
: keep your Budwieser, Miller, Rolling Rock and Coor's Light, not
: distinguishable from the water down drainage of a dishwasher and
: definitely doesn't equate to progress.
I was comparing German beer to that of the UK. But, US microbrews have
tended to even the score. I'd take a good beer from them over that of the
UK as well.
: Wasn't one of your beers advertised as having no after-taste? It had
: no before-taste either.
: Samuel Adams isn't too bad, but no match for Theakston's Olde Peculiar.
Go to the Augustiener beergarten in Munich and get a liter. Better than
anything in the UK.
: |
: | : What the UK has in the USA is not a closely guarded secret, but it's
: a
: | : whole
: | : lot more than you think or know. Do you have any idea how many Brits
: | : died
: | : in the WTC? They were not there as tourists.
: |
: | Many people from different countries died in the WTC.
: Yes.
: |
: | : The Americans are a highly industrious people, they work hard and
: are
: | : very productive. They work for themselves and Britain, have since
: they
: | : were picking cotton for the English textile industry and buying
: | : Chippendale
: | : furniture to copy.
: |
: | What you mean to say is that we pattern our power elite after your
: own.
: Of course I mean to say it. I prefer example, it's obviously carried
: the correct message.
Yes, defend the elites while they steal from you.
: | Spooks infiltrated with oil barons. MI/6 with BP like the CIA and
: Gulf.
: | But is that progress or only a better way for the haves to have more?
: |
: | I don't doubt that the UK taught us how to run cocaine from years of
: | experience with opium. And before you write that off as criminals and
: the
: | like; I'm talking about our governments!
: You've found yet more examples.
: What you mean to say is that you pattern your power elite after our own.
Yes, but I'm not proud of the fact!
: | : The UK has invested wisely, and not in Tunisia.
: | : The pound is still the strongest unit of currency in the world.
: $1.80 to
: | : the £1.00.
: | : We are but 4 states to your 50. Just rubbing it in.
: |
: | Nothing to rub in.
: I was echoing something someone said to me.
: | Our country founded on the basis of the common man has
: | allowed the elites to take over based upon what they learned from
: their UK
: | counterparts. Be proud of that while inflation eats away at your slave
: | wages. Fool!
: Our country founded on the basis of the class system allowed the elites
: to take over based on the Norman Conquest of 1066. Britain amde a lot
: of money out of he slave trade, then you let them all go and now you've
: got ghettos. Idiot!
Why did you free yours?
: BTW, if you want to get into a flame war, my Anglo-Saxon is better
: than yours, fucking stupid *****.
: About the best you can manage is '*****', '*****' and
: 'jerk-off'.
: | Nothing sillier than an overproud America other than an overproud
: Brit!
: Agreed, so why start it? I began with facts, you reverted to flame.
Your facts smack of opinions.
Eric
: Androcles.
.
User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 24 Oct 2005 03:29:15 PM
"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
news:djj5ha$274$4@news.ums.edu...
| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
|
| : "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
| : news:djbebg$1od1$1@news.ums.edu...
| : | Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
| : |
| : | : "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
| : | : news:dj6766$2nvk$1@news.ums.edu...
| : | : | Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
| : | : |
| : | : | : "Morten Reistad" <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote in
message
| : | : | : news:b605jd.6rk1.ln@via.reistad.priv.no...
| : | : | : | In article
<Dbg5f.49184$U9.19358@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
| : | : | : | Androcles <Androcles@ MyPlace.org> wrote:
| : | : | : | >
| : | : | : | >"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in
message
| : | : | : | >news:dj3n4n$b14$1@news.ums.edu...
| : | : | : | >| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
| : | : | : |
| : | : | : |
| : | : | : | >| All countries produce propaganda that states, "our
country
| : is
| : | : great
| : | : | : | >based
| : | : | : | >| upon our great people". Even yours.
| : | : | : | >
| : | : | : | >Yes indeed. I have however lived in the USA for 20 years
and
| : know
| : | : | : | >its attitudes very well. If the pot is calling the kettle
| : black,
| : | : this
| : | : | : | >pot admits
| : | : | : | >to being black as well.
| : | : | : | >Unfortunately English pride has fallen to the level of
waving
| : the
| : | : | : flag
| : | : | : | >for
| : | : | : | >the soccer team. We no longer have a ship building
industry,
| : an
| : | : | : aircraft
| : | : | : | >industry or even a car industry.
| : | : | : |
| : | : | : | Nor do you have an empire, a senior currency, military
| : superiority
| : | : | : | on the oceans. Just rubbing it in.
| : | : |
| : | : | : No empire. No military superiority. The pound is still the
| : strongest
| : | : | : unit
| : | : | : of currency in the world. $1.80 to the £1.00. Just rubbing
it
| : in.
| : | : |
| : | : | Hell, at one time Tunisian dinars were $4 per dinar. Does that
| : mean
| : | : that
| : | : | Tunisian currency is stronger than US's? No!
| : | : |
| : | : | Until the term "petropound" enters the vernacular as the term
| : | : | "petrodollar" is now, you don't have the strongest currency.
Even
| : BP
| : | : buys
| : | : | oil with dollars, of which they must have on reserve. THAT is
| : called
| : | : | dollar hegemony.
| : |
| : |
| : | : You still buy insurance, and not from Tunisia. Who paid when
your
| : | : shuttles exploded? Who do you trust? Britain took your premiums,
and
| : | : will
| : | : continue to take your premiums. You have no trade with Tunisia.
| : Britain
| : | : has as many Mcdonald's, KFCs, Pizza Huts per 100,000 people as
the
| : USA.
| : |
| : | That doesn't equate to progress. Germany is cleaner than the UK
and
| : has a
| : | better public transportation system. And better beer!
|
| : I'd have to dispute on the beer, but that's a matter of taste. You
can
| : keep your Budwieser, Miller, Rolling Rock and Coor's Light, not
| : distinguishable from the water down drainage of a dishwasher and
| : definitely doesn't equate to progress.
|
| I was comparing German beer to that of the UK. But, US microbrews have
| tended to even the score. I'd take a good beer from them over that of
the
| UK as well.
Not my fault you have poor taste. Americans drink cold beer because they
don't
like the flavour and have to anesthetize their taste buds.:-)
As for US microbrews, that wheat beer is worse than anything I've ever
tasted
anywhere at any time.
|
| : Wasn't one of your beers advertised as having no after-taste? It had
| : no before-taste either.
| : Samuel Adams isn't too bad, but no match for Theakston's Olde
Peculiar.
|
| Go to the Augustiener beergarten in Munich and get a liter. Better
than
| anything in the UK.
I'm not going to France just get a German beer when I haven't sampled
all English brews yet.
|
| : |
| : | : What the UK has in the USA is not a closely guarded secret, but
it's
| : a
| : | : whole
| : | : lot more than you think or know. Do you have any idea how many
Brits
| : | : died
| : | : in the WTC? They were not there as tourists.
| : |
| : | Many people from different countries died in the WTC.
| : Yes.
|
|
| : |
| : | : The Americans are a highly industrious people, they work hard
and
| : are
| : | : very productive. They work for themselves and Britain, have
since
| : they
| : | : were picking cotton for the English textile industry and buying
| : | : Chippendale
| : | : furniture to copy.
| : |
| : | What you mean to say is that we pattern our power elite after your
| : own.
|
| : Of course I mean to say it. I prefer example, it's obviously carried
| : the correct message.
|
| Yes, defend the elites while they steal from you.
I wouldn't vote for the Bush family, I'm not the dumb.
When asked what he'd do about the greenhouse effect, Bush Sr.
replied "They haven't seen the white house effect yet". Now we have,
no more Big Easy. Defend the elite while they steal from you. Your
breadbasket will move to Canada, Florida will sink beneath the waves
like Atlantis before it. Go on, carry on melting the ice, be
irresponsible.
| : | Spooks infiltrated with oil barons. MI/6 with BP like the CIA and
| : Gulf.
| : | But is that progress or only a better way for the haves to have
more?
| : |
| : | I don't doubt that the UK taught us how to run cocaine from years
of
| : | experience with opium. And before you write that off as criminals
and
| : the
| : | like; I'm talking about our governments!
|
| : You've found yet more examples.
| : What you mean to say is that you pattern your power elite after our
own.
|
| Yes, but I'm not proud of the fact!
Not much I can do, is there? Humanity is out of control as it always
was, heading toward famine and global war.
|
| : | : The UK has invested wisely, and not in Tunisia.
| : | : The pound is still the strongest unit of currency in the world.
| : $1.80 to
| : | : the £1.00.
| : | : We are but 4 states to your 50. Just rubbing it in.
| : |
| : | Nothing to rub in.
| : I was echoing something someone said to me.
|
|
| : | Our country founded on the basis of the common man has
| : | allowed the elites to take over based upon what they learned from
| : their UK
| : | counterparts. Be proud of that while inflation eats away at your
slave
| : | wages. Fool!
|
| : Our country founded on the basis of the class system allowed the
elites
| : to take over based on the Norman Conquest of 1066. Britain amde a
lot
| : of money out of he slave trade, then you let them all go and now
you've
| : got ghettos. Idiot!
|
| Why did you free yours?
They couldn't survive well in a colder climate. What's black and doesn't
work?
Half of London.
|
| : BTW, if you want to get into a flame war, my Anglo-Saxon is better
| : than yours, fucking stupid *****.
| : About the best you can manage is '*****', '*****' and
| : 'jerk-off'.
|
| : | Nothing sillier than an overproud America other than an overproud
| : Brit!
|
| : Agreed, so why start it? I began with facts, you reverted to flame.
|
| Your facts smack of opinions.
Of course. It is my opinion that black people were captured by the
English
and sold to Americans who enslaved them, my opinion that Americans
displaced its aboriginal peoples, slaughtering any that resisted, my
opinion that Andrew Jackson was a mass murderer who defied John
Marshall,
my opinion that the USA consumes a great percentage of the worlds
fossil fuels than any other Nation, and my opinion that our forefathers
and
we are responsible for the impending disaster. Why that should entitle
you
to switch from friendly banter to open hostility by calling me a fool is
matter of your own opinionated point of view, isn't it?
Androcles.
.
User: "Eric Chomko"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 26 Oct 2005 12:59:47 PM
Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
: "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
[...]
: | I was comparing German beer to that of the UK. But, US microbrews have
: | tended to even the score. I'd take a good beer from them over that of
: the
: | UK as well.
: Not my fault you have poor taste. Americans drink cold beer because they
: don't
: like the flavour and have to anesthetize their taste buds.:-)
: As for US microbrews, that wheat beer is worse than anything I've ever
: tasted
: anywhere at any time.
You have obviously never been to a decent microbrew pub. Try the one in
Baltimore sometime. Get the Maerzen.
: |
: | : Wasn't one of your beers advertised as having no after-taste? It had
: | : no before-taste either.
: | : Samuel Adams isn't too bad, but no match for Theakston's Olde
: Peculiar.
: |
: | Go to the Augustiener beergarten in Munich and get a liter. Better
: than
: | anything in the UK.
: I'm not going to France just get a German beer when I haven't sampled
: all English brews yet.
France? Munich? Perhaps you need to put down the hash pipe?
: | : | What you mean to say is that we pattern our power elite after your
: | : own.
: |
: | : Of course I mean to say it. I prefer example, it's obviously carried
: | : the correct message.
: |
: | Yes, defend the elites while they steal from you.
: I wouldn't vote for the Bush family, I'm not the dumb.
But enough people are as he was re-elected.
: When asked what he'd do about the greenhouse effect, Bush Sr.
: replied "They haven't seen the white house effect yet". Now we have,
: no more Big Easy. Defend the elite while they steal from you. Your
: breadbasket will move to Canada, Florida will sink beneath the waves
: like Atlantis before it. Go on, carry on melting the ice, be
: irresponsible.
I'm afraid that even when the naysayers agree that something needs
to be done, what we do won't fix it. Their belief is that, given enough
proof of a problem, that somehow we'll fix it. I think it will get worse
before it gets better. How much worse is the question.
: | : | Spooks infiltrated with oil barons. MI/6 with BP like the CIA and
: | : Gulf.
: | : | But is that progress or only a better way for the haves to have
: more?
: | : |
: | : | I don't doubt that the UK taught us how to run cocaine from years
: of
: | : | experience with opium. And before you write that off as criminals
: and
: | : the
: | : | like; I'm talking about our governments!
: |
: | : You've found yet more examples.
: | : What you mean to say is that you pattern your power elite after our
: own.
: |
: | Yes, but I'm not proud of the fact!
: Not much I can do, is there? Humanity is out of control as it always
: was, heading toward famine and global war.
There is always something that can be done.
: |
: | : | : The UK has invested wisely, and not in Tunisia.
: | : | : The pound is still the strongest unit of currency in the world.
: | : $1.80 to
: | : | : the £1.00.
: | : | : We are but 4 states to your 50. Just rubbing it in.
: | : |
: | : | Nothing to rub in.
: | : I was echoing something someone said to me.
: |
: |
: | : | Our country founded on the basis of the common man has
: | : | allowed the elites to take over based upon what they learned from
: | : their UK
: | : | counterparts. Be proud of that while inflation eats away at your
: slave
: | : | wages. Fool!
: |
: | : Our country founded on the basis of the class system allowed the
: elites
: | : to take over based on the Norman Conquest of 1066. Britain amde a
: lot
: | : of money out of he slave trade, then you let them all go and now
: you've
: | : got ghettos. Idiot!
: |
: | Why did you free yours?
: They couldn't survive well in a colder climate. What's black and doesn't
: work?
: Half of London.
Only half? You ought to see Washington DC sometime.
: | : BTW, if you want to get into a flame war, my Anglo-Saxon is better
: | : than yours, fucking stupid *****.
: | : About the best you can manage is '*****', '*****' and
: | : 'jerk-off'.
: |
: | : | Nothing sillier than an overproud America other than an overproud
: | : Brit!
: |
: | : Agreed, so why start it? I began with facts, you reverted to flame.
: |
: | Your facts smack of opinions.
: Of course. It is my opinion that black people were captured by the
: English
: and sold to Americans who enslaved them, my opinion that Americans
: displaced its aboriginal peoples, slaughtering any that resisted, my
: opinion that Andrew Jackson was a mass murderer who defied John
: Marshall,
: my opinion that the USA consumes a great percentage of the worlds
: fossil fuels than any other Nation, and my opinion that our forefathers
: and
: we are responsible for the impending disaster. Why that should entitle
: you
: to switch from friendly banter to open hostility by calling me a fool is
: matter of your own opinionated point of view, isn't it?
I thought the Portuguese were the slave traders? Open hostility by calling
you a fool? Okay, you're not a fool, just very thin skinned...
Eric
: Androcles.
.
User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org"

Title: Re: Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else. 26 Oct 2005 08:23:49 PM
"Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
news:djog6j$28r7$1@news.ums.edu...
| Androcles (Androcles@MyPlace.org) wrote:
|
| : "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
| [...]
| : | I was comparing German beer to that of the UK. But, US microbrews
have
| : | tended to even the score. I'd take a good beer from them over that
of
| : the
| : | UK as w