| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
26 Feb 2006 07:01:31 PM |
| Object: |
Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.
I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)
At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.
The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").
My query is:
1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?
2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?
3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?
I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.
DMR
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| User: "digitalmaster" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
26 Feb 2006 07:08:43 PM |
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<desertphile@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141002090.996219.48280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.
I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)
At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.
The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").
My query is:
1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?
2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?
3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?
I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.
DMR
100 feet of elevation will give you 43.31 pounds of pressure.
1 foot = .43 psi
just multiply feet of elevation cahng time .43 to get pressure you want
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
26 Feb 2006 07:54:53 PM |
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digitalmaster wrote:
100 feet of elevation will give you 43.31 pounds of pressure.
1 foot = .43 psi
just multiply feet of elevation cahng time .43 to get pressure you want
Thank you. Is it really that simple? Seems to me even one of our cows
could have figured that out.
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 09:54:19 AM |
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In article <1141005293.767983.271400@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
<desertphile@hotmail.com> wrote:
digitalmaster wrote:
100 feet of elevation will give you 43.31 pounds of pressure.
1 foot = .43 psi
just multiply feet of elevation cahng time .43 to get pressure you want
Thank you. Is it really that simple? Seems to me even one of our cows
could have figured that out.
I can make it more complicated for you, if you like. Pressure is force
per unit area, or the weight of water per unit area. The volume of water
in a pipe is V=A*h, where A is the cross-sectional area and h is the
height. The density is d, acceleration of gravity g, giving a weight of
W=A*h*d*g, and divide by A to get pressure, P=hdg. But d and g are
physical constants, the only parameter that you can adjust is h.
So just say 0.43 psi per foot.
No regulator is necessary because the pressure is determined by the height
of the tank, and I assume the tank will have a predictable position.
Also, if the pipe is too skinny the pressure will drop when the water is
running because of the impedence of the line. I don't know off-hand what
you'd get from a one inch ID.
If I were in cow country, I might be worried about drinking water that
had been filtered through cow poop. I'll just have to trust that you know
what you're doing, but you might want to get the water tested for E. Coli
if you think it might be a problem.
--
"In any case, don't stress too much--cortisol inhibits muscular
hypertrophy. " -- Eric Dodd
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 01:22:15 PM |
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Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
In article <1141005293.767983.271400@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
<desertphile@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thank you. Is it really that simple? Seems to me even one of our cows
could have figured that out.
I can make it more complicated for you, if you like.
Great! My life is not nearly as complicated as it outta be. :-)
Pressure is force
per unit area, or the weight of water per unit area. The volume of water
in a pipe is V=A*h, where A is the cross-sectional area and h is the
height. The density is d, acceleration of gravity g, giving a weight of
W=A*h*d*g, and divide by A to get pressure, P=hdg. But d and g are
physical constants, the only parameter that you can adjust is h.
So just say 0.43 psi per foot.
Okay, I will. :-) I have yet to look at the on-demand propane water
heater's specifications for water pressure to see what its tolerances
are, but at the moment I am considering locating the water source 120
feet above the outlet.
No regulator is necessary because the pressure is determined by the height
of the tank, and I assume the tank will have a predictable position.
We will probably create our own flat area on the hill to bury the water
collection box (55 gallon drum), so the hill will not force us to pick
a site we don't want--- unless we hit a boulder. But then we also got
some dynamite.
Also, if the pipe is too skinny the pressure will drop when the water is
running because of the impedence of the line. I don't know off-hand what
you'd get from a one inch ID.
Current water lines on the ranch are 1.5 diameter. I suppose the owners
of the ranch will want to keep the same diameter, since there are
already tools and spare parts for that size.
If I were in cow country, I might be worried about drinking water that
had been filtered through cow poop. I'll just have to trust that you know
what you're doing, but you might want to get the water tested for E. Coli
if you think it might be a problem.
I have been force to drink such water when I hiked across the Mojave
Desert and then up the length of Death Valley (for fun; no, really).
Fortunately the water here is extremely clean: it comes out of rocks
and flows into a concrete tank at the spring; the spring and tank are
covered with plastic sheeting, plywood, and rocks. Two of the three
humans who live here have been drinking it for 11 years.
For 40 years that water used to be transported down to the ranch via
cedar logs that had been carved into troughs like a flue; 30 years ago
that flue was replaced with hose.
There is another good spring down the canyon a mile that was once flued
down to the canyon floor (well, a bench 30 feet above the canyon floor)
around 70 years ago. It is located at the base of a cliff wall that
rises 1,700 feet. I climb up there now and then to get a drink. :-)
--
"In any case, don't stress too much--cortisol inhibits muscular
hypertrophy. " -- Eric Dodd
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| User: "Goedjn" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 02:47:37 PM |
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Okay, I will. :-) I have yet to look at the on-demand propane water
heater's specifications for water pressure to see what its tolerances
are, but at the moment I am considering locating the water source 120
feet above the outlet.
The propane on-demand heater I've got works with 18' of head
fed through a 3/4" garden hose, but not with 16'. I know
this because the 55-gal barrel sits on a 16' tower, and
the heater doesn't work when the barrel's less than half full.
No regulator is necessary because the pressure is determined by the height
of the tank, and I assume the tank will have a predictable position.
We will probably create our own flat area on the hill to bury the water
collection box (55 gallon drum), so the hill will not force us to pick
a site we don't want--- unless we hit a boulder. But then we also got
some dynamite.
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| User: "Puppet_Sock" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 11:24:40 AM |
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Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
[snip]
If I were in cow country, I might be worried about drinking water that
had been filtered through cow poop. I'll just have to trust that you know
what you're doing, but you might want to get the water tested for E. Coli
if you think it might be a problem.
E. Coli, cryptosporidia, giardia, the fun never ends. Plus, some
possible things that may be in the water require either boiling
or significant chemicals to get rid of.
They typical way that cattle country folk test the water goes
like so. They elect one of their group to try the water. They
don't *tell* him he's elected, just fill his canteen with the
at-hand liquid. If he remains of acceptable health, the water
is declared fit to drink.
Socks
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| User: "digitalmaster" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 07:31:50 AM |
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<desertphile@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141002090.996219.48280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.
I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)
At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.
The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").
My query is:
1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?
2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?
3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?
I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.
DMR
to help with water hammer you can install a small bladder type tank right
before the pipe goes in the house...to help take up the shock when a valve
is closed.
Or another way is to put a tee in the line then run a vertical pipe up a few
feet and cap it...the trapped air will act as a "shock absorber" when valves
are closed.
.
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| User: "Doctor Drivel" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 07:49:00 AM |
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"digitalmaster" <digitalmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:e8DMf.51231$bW.9768@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
<desertphile@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141002090.996219.48280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.
I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)
At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.
The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").
My query is:
1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?
Keep the drum as near to the borehole as possible.
It may be worth your while making the drum bigger, or multiple drums, for a
large water store. Then keep the borehols as small as possible to avoid
losing water. If it gushes away you may dry up the water source at certain
times of the year. Only you can actually know this being local to it.
2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?
Not at 3 bar there isn't.
3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?
At about 3 bar (30 foot vertically is approx 1 bar) you don't have great
pressure. My house is 4.5 bar from the mains with no pressure reducer. 3
bar will give a nice shower too.
to help with water hammer you can install a small bladder type tank right
before the pipe goes in the house...to help take up the shock when a valve
is closed.
It is called a shock arrestor. It can be the size of a tennis ball. Water
hammer tends to be when taps are turned off sharply, like having lever
handles. Water hammer may not be a problem as any shocks may work their way
back up the supply pipe.
Or another way is to put a tee in the
line then run a vertical pipe up a few feet and cap it...the trapped air
will act as a "shock absorber" when valves are closed.
The air pocket will eventually disappear, so best get the proper fitting.
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| User: "Jerry Avins" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 08:51:07 AM |
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digitalmaster wrote:
...
to help with water hammer you can install a small bladder type tank right
before the pipe goes in the house...to help take up the shock when a valve
is closed.
Or another way is to put a tee in the line then run a vertical pipe up a few
feet and cap it...the trapped air will act as a "shock absorber" when valves
are closed.
That works until all the air eventually dissolves and is replaced by
water. Then the riser needs to be isolated and drained. Install the
appropriate valves to do than. (I have risers on the water lines to my
clothes washer. About once a year, I shut the water, disconnect the
hoses, and let the risers drain. If I don't, the noise reminds me why I
put the risers in. Bladder-type tanks separate the air and water, making
periodic draining (or recharging with air through a Shrader valve)
unnecessary. Atmospheric pressure is the equivalent of 34' of head. 100'
of head will compress atmospheric air in a riser to a third if its
original volume, allowing less room for free motion (and less free
volume) than appearance might suggest.
Be sure to put a valve at the top of the feed pipe to make repairs
possible, and one before the shock-relief gizmo (tank, riser) so you can
drain it. It goes without saying that you need a drain valve for the
gizmo and maybe also an air-bleed to let air in so water can come out.
(There is a 40" force main coming into one of the facilities at the
sewerage authority I'm associated with. Its downstream end has a valve
for emergencies. When flow is at rated, it takes at least two minutes to
close the valve without danger of rupturing the ductile-iron pipe.)
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
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| User: "SJF" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
26 Feb 2006 07:32:05 PM |
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<desertphile@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141002090.996219.48280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.
I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)
At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.
The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").
My query is:
1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?
2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?
3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?
I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.
DMR
1. 100 feet of elevation difference.
2. No
3. No
I presume you will use the barrel as a reservoir with overflow of the excess
water.
Pipe size depend on the horizontal distance and the desired rate of flow.
This data is missing.
SJF
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| User: "SJF" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
26 Feb 2006 10:56:51 PM |
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"SJF" <SJF@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:sEsMf.70025$bF.45229@dukeread07...
<desertphile@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141002090.996219.48280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.
I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)
At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.
The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").
My query is:
1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?
2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?
3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?
I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.
DMR
1. 100 feet of elevation difference.
2. No
3. No
I presume you will use the barrel as a reservoir with overflow of the
excess water.
Pipe size depend on the horizontal distance and the desired rate of flow.
This data is missing.
SJF
Sorry! I hastily misread your question 2. The answer is YES. If you put
the collector higher than 100 feet, the static pressure will be more than 43
psi.
That's a pretty steep hill at 20 degrees. Or did you mean 20 percent grade?
A slope of 20 degrees means the minimum length of your supply line to the
house will be 300 feet. For a 20 percent slope, it would be 500 feet. You
will probably need something to counter water hammer when you shut off the
flow.
SJF
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| User: "mm" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
26 Feb 2006 11:52:45 PM |
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On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 20:56:51 -0800, "SJF" <SJF@nospam.com> wrote:
Sorry! I hastily misread your question 2. The answer is YES. If you put
the collector higher than 100 feet, the static pressure will be more than 43
psi.
That's a pretty steep hill at 20 degrees. Or did you mean 20 percent grade?
A slope of 20 degrees means the minimum length of your supply line to the
house will be 300 feet. For a 20 percent slope, it would be 500 feet. You
will probably need something to counter water hammer when you shut off the
flow.
This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back.
8-)
SJF
Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.
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| User: "Jerry Avins" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 09:12:12 AM |
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mm wrote:
This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back.
8-)
Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting
off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe.
How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something?
Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t
can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that
steel pipe might generate.
There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing
about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph.
If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour,
would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't!
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 09:58:55 AM |
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In article <Gd-dnVWv_5BSi57ZnZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@rcn.net>,
Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote:
mm wrote:
This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back.
8-)
Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting
off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe.
How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something?
Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t
can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that
steel pipe might generate.
There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing
about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph.
If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour,
would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't!
I thought the classic way of dealing with water hammer is an upright,
capped, air-filled length of pipe connected to the line.
--
"You're not as dumb as you look. Or sound. Or our best testing
indicates." -- Monty Burns to Homer Simpson
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| User: "SJF" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 01:51:48 PM |
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"Gregory L. Hansen" <glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:dtv7jv$png$4@rainier.uits.indiana.edu...
In article <Gd-dnVWv_5BSi57ZnZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@rcn.net>,
I thought the classic way of dealing with water hammer is an upright,
capped, air-filled length of pipe connected to the line.
Correct. There is also the possibility of using a pop-off valve as used on
steam boilers set for something like 70 pounds of pressure -- located near
the cabin, of course. This would assume the occasional spurt of waste water
can be accommodated.
OT --I was once assigned as maintenance engineer for a group of irrigation
projects. At one location we had a buried 39 inch pipe, a mile long, from a
reservoir to the head of a canal. Failure of the local crews to observe
operating procedures at the springtime turn on of the system resulted in
water hammer that blew off three manhole structures along the length of the
pipe. Fortunately, no pipe was broken and we were able to get the system
back in operation before water was needed. But we should have had some kind
of custom designed pressure relief device built in near the end of the pipe.
SJF
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| User: "Jerry Avins" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 10:16:53 AM |
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Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
...
I thought the classic way of dealing with water hammer is an upright,
capped, air-filled length of pipe connected to the line.
A riser is a way to create a volume out of materials at hand. Like any
tank with water in contact with air, it needs a way to replenish the air
periodically. Because the air-water interface is relatively small, loss
of air is relatively slow.
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
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| User: "Spaceman" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 10:20:50 AM |
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"Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:TaydnT0NGcFkuJ7ZRVn-hg@rcn.net...
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
...
I thought the classic way of dealing with water hammer is an upright,
capped, air-filled length of pipe connected to the line.
A riser is a way to create a volume out of materials at hand. Like any
tank with water in contact with air, it needs a way to replenish the air
periodically. Because the air-water interface is relatively small, loss of
air is relatively slow.
Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use)
and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed.
:)
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| User: "Jerry Avins" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 02:37:01 PM |
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Spaceman wrote:
"Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:TaydnT0NGcFkuJ7ZRVn-hg@rcn.net...
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
...
I thought the classic way of dealing with water hammer is an upright,
capped, air-filled length of pipe connected to the line.
A riser is a way to create a volume out of materials at hand. Like any
tank with water in contact with air, it needs a way to replenish the air
periodically. Because the air-water interface is relatively small, loss of
air is relatively slow.
Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use)
and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed.
And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best. The
volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't large.
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
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| User: "Guy King" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 02:55:07 PM |
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The message <hpudnQHBXMdt_57ZRVn-tg@rcn.net>
from Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> contains these words:
Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use)
and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed.
And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best. The
volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't large.
Injecting a little oil to seal the air from the water should slow down
the loss, too.
--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
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| User: "Nick" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
28 Feb 2006 06:07:25 AM |
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Guy King wrote:
The message <hpudnQHBXMdt_57ZRVn-tg@rcn.net>
from Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> contains these words:
Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use)
and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed.
And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best. The
volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't large.
Injecting a little oil to seal the air from the water should slow down
the loss, too.
How about putting a synthetic rubber ball in the pipe between the
water and the air?
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| User: "Greg Neill" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
28 Feb 2006 07:03:12 AM |
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"Nick" <nickad@not.here> wrote in message news:B5XMf.282$JZ1.16493@news.xtra.co.nz...
Guy King wrote:
How about putting a synthetic rubber ball in the pipe between the
water and the air?
Just fill the stand pipe with tennis balls. Make sure the
pipe is slightly wider than the balls.
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| User: "Jerry Avins" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
28 Feb 2006 08:53:06 AM |
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Nick wrote:
Guy King wrote:
The message <hpudnQHBXMdt_57ZRVn-tg@rcn.net>
from Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> contains these words:
Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use)
and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed.
And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best.
The volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't
large.
Injecting a little oil to seal the air from the water should slow down
the loss, too.
How about putting a synthetic rubber ball in the pipe between the water
and the air?
If the friction is low and the pipe smooth, that ought to work pretty well.
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
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| User: "Harry K" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
28 Feb 2006 10:24:31 AM |
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Jerry Avins wrote:
Nick wrote:
Guy King wrote:
The message <hpudnQHBXMdt_57ZRVn-tg@rcn.net>
from Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> contains these words:
Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use)
and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed.
And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best.
The volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't
large.
Injecting a little oil to seal the air from the water should slow down
the loss, too.
How about putting a synthetic rubber ball in the pipe between the water
and the air?
If the friction is low and the pipe smooth, that ought to work pretty well.
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
Of course the best method if a hammer is encounted is to just put in a
standard surge tank. They are small, cheap and have a bladder.
Install and forget.
Harry K
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| User: "Jerry Avins" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 03:53:49 PM |
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Guy King wrote:
The message <hpudnQHBXMdt_57ZRVn-tg@rcn.net>
from Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> contains these words:
Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use)
and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed.
And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best. The
volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't large.
Injecting a little oil to seal the air from the water should slow down
the loss, too.
PVC and copper pipe is smooth enough inside so a floating plug can be
fashioned with very little clearance. I don't think I would want even
potable oil in mt watter supply.
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
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| User: "Harry K" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 09:58:20 AM |
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Jerry Avins wrote:
mm wrote:
This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back.
8-)
Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting
off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe.
How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something?
Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t
can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that
steel pipe might generate.
There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing
about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph.
If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour,
would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't!
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
There shouldn't be any more problem of water hammer with that set up
than with a standard system with long runs of pipe. I was on a
community well system (40-60 psi) with a 1/4 mile run to the well for
me. Never had a hammer. No difference in flow in the pipe or dynamics
of possible water hammer if the pipe is horizontal or vertical, the
flow is the same.
Harry K
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF
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| User: "SJF" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
27 Feb 2006 01:19:45 PM |
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"Harry K" <turnkey4099@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141055900.388445.204030@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Jerry Avins wrote:
mm wrote:
This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back.
8-)
Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting
off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe.
How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something?
Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t
can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that
steel pipe might generate.
There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing
about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph.
If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour,
would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't!
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
There shouldn't be any more problem of water hammer with that set up
than with a standard system with long runs of pipe. I was on a
community well system (40-60 psi) with a 1/4 mile run to the well for
me. Never had a hammer. No difference in flow in the pipe or dynamics
of possible water hammer if the pipe is horizontal or vertical, the
flow is the same.
Harry K
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
Actually, in your case, it is the distance from your house to the water main
that determines the water hammer. Not the total distance to the supply
source. The OP is dealing with a single long pipe which will create a
problem unlike the usual suburban situation.
SJF
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| User: "Harry K" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
28 Feb 2006 10:21:04 AM |
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SJF wrote:
"Harry K" <turnkey4099@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141055900.388445.204030@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Jerry Avins wrote:
mm wrote:
This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back.
8-)
Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting
off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe.
How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something?
Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t
can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that
steel pipe might generate.
There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing
about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph.
If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour,
would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't!
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
There shouldn't be any more problem of water hammer with that set up
than with a standard system with long runs of pipe. I was on a
community well system (40-60 psi) with a 1/4 mile run to the well for
me. Never had a hammer. No difference in flow in the pipe or dynamics
of possible water hammer if the pipe is horizontal or vertical, the
flow is the same.
Harry K
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF
Actually, in your case, it is the distance from your house to the water m=
ain
that determines the water hammer. Not the total distance to the supply
source. The OP is dealing with a single long pipe which will create a
problem unlike the usual suburban situation.
SJF
That was my distance to the system, 1/4 mile of pipe between my house
and the well, no other connections.
Harry K
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| User: "Jerry Avins" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
28 Feb 2006 01:34:19 PM |
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Harry K wrote:
...
That was my distance to the system, 1/4 mile of pipe between my house
and the well, no other connections.
Is there anything else between the house and the well? A pump and
storage tank, maybe? At my place, the pump is at the bottom of the well
and the pressure tank in the house. No possibility of hammer there.
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
.
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| User: "Harry K" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
28 Feb 2006 09:33:17 PM |
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Jerry Avins wrote:
Harry K wrote:
...
That was my distance to the system, 1/4 mile of pipe between my house
and the well, no other connections.
Is there anything else between the house and the well? A pump and
storage tank, maybe? At my place, the pump is at the bottom of the well
and the pressure tank in the house. No possibility of hammer there.
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
Pressure tank (huge) at the well head. That system used to serve 4
houses. I finally drilled my own to get off of it as I wound up the de
facto non paid maintenance man.
Harry K
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Water head, pressure, pipe diameter |
26 Feb 2006 08:04:43 PM |
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I did this kinda thing for my mom, back in 1976... geez how time
flies:(
Anyhow with a similiar drop and using garden hose we were able to run a
sprinkler the kind that goes left and right, for a long time.
in my moms case she had a cistern on the hill, for their home.
I tapped the overflow to a old hot water tank so she could water her
garden withourt concern about depleting the water for her house. It
worked great till my moved back here and got diovorced.
odd how something that long ago applies here today
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