Wave Particle Duality <=> Addition Multiplication Duality



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Tomoko Kanazawa"
Date: 15 May 2007 11:44:05 PM
Object: Wave Particle Duality <=> Addition Multiplication Duality
Passage 1
One very interesting thing about math is the most fundamental and
simplistic considerations of things like addition and multiplication. The
distinction between multiplication and addition may be regarded as being a
question of order and disorder. In addition quantities of varying sizes are
all lumped together to yield a sum. In multiplication, you have quantities
which all have equal sizes, and instead of lumping them all together as in
addition you simply multiply. The only reason that multiplication is
possible is because it is possible to have a collection of numbers of equal
magnitude in the first place.
It does sound strange to think that addition works on "disordered
collections" of things, and multiplication works on collections of things
which inherently contain "more order" because they are all identical.
Admittedly, this last statement is very poorly written, but I think that the
idea is clear even if we (or maybe just I ) lack a suitable nomenclature to
explain it properly.
At any rate, if it were impossible to assemble a collection of objects
of equal magnitude then multiplication would likewise be impossible. And to
think that this might be related somehow to order and disorder, most people
simply dont think that way. I think that most mathematicians would not think
of it that way either. But the argument is daunting. Beautiful, and
profoundly simple.
So, what's the difference between addition and multiplication ? Order ?
Disorder ? Can it be thought of that way ? Does anyone already think like
that ? Does this seem so outrageous ? I dont think that it is outrageous at
all. Just very, very strange.
But, as we shall see, even more strange is the fact that if you are
given any number there is no way to determine if it is a sum or a product.
For any given number you therefore have a "duality", whether a given number
is dissected into a collection of identical constituents, or whether those
constituents all have different sizes, the sum and product are certainly
equal to each other and this is very mysterious. I think that it really is
mysterious, at least in terms of how it might be related to order and
disorder.
Passage 2
Elsewhere on these newsgroups I have been babbling ad nauseum regarding how
to justify treating length as being probabilistic. For brevity, much
material has been omitted here and we jump right into a couple interesting
considerations.
We want to use a "complex-like" number system where a is real and ~b is
taken to represent an uncertainty. Formally, I dont think that ~b is a
number, but it should obey certain rules of algebra as if it were.
Multiplication implies an everywhere probabilistic notion of length:
(a)*(~b)
| ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ |
Addition implies length which is well behaved everywhere except the
endpoint(s).
(a + ~b)
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| + (~ ~ ~)
Using these notions of length we can now imagine a space which is
"indeterminately either continuous or discrete". It seems quite tempting and
reasonable to try to explaion the wave-particle duality as being a result of
this indeterminacy.
Passage 3
Conclusion.
Lastly, compare and contrast these ideas. The ideas in the first passage,
and the ideas in the second passage. Clearly, addition and multiplication
lie at the very heart of both situations. Am I the only one who finds that
just a little bit peculiar ?
Is it possible that the wave particle duality boils down to something as
simple as just this ? An oddity related to multiplication, addition and
order ? Wouldn't that be strange if it were ?
I have tried to present this as non-technically as possible in order to
avoid losing the central notion in a sea of rigor and technicalities.
Perhaps the reader will find the general idea to be a thing of beauty, and
that is my hope.
Would'nt it be funny if the world's leading physicists had been stymied for
over a hundred years over something as simple as the difference between
addition and multiplication ? Would'nt that be funny ? Will they _ever_ live
it down ? : )
Regards,
Tomoko Kanazawa
.

User: "Sam Wormley"

Title: Re: Wave Particle Duality <=> Addition Multiplication Duality 16 May 2007 12:14:01 AM
Tomoko Kanazawa wrote:

Passage 1

One very interesting thing about math is the most fundamental and
simplistic considerations of things like addition and multiplication. The
distinction between multiplication and addition may be regarded as being a
question of order and disorder. In addition quantities of varying sizes are
all lumped together to yield a sum. In multiplication, you have quantities
which all have equal sizes, and instead of lumping them all together as in
addition you simply multiply. The only reason that multiplication is
possible is because it is possible to have a collection of numbers of equal
magnitude in the first place.

It does sound strange to think that addition works on "disordered
collections" of things, and multiplication works on collections of things
which inherently contain "more order" because they are all identical.
Admittedly, this last statement is very poorly written, but I think that the
idea is clear even if we (or maybe just I ) lack a suitable nomenclature to
explain it properly.

At any rate, if it were impossible to assemble a collection of objects
of equal magnitude then multiplication would likewise be impossible. And to
think that this might be related somehow to order and disorder, most people
simply dont think that way. I think that most mathematicians would not think
of it that way either. But the argument is daunting. Beautiful, and
profoundly simple.

So, what's the difference between addition and multiplication ? Order ?
Disorder ? Can it be thought of that way ? Does anyone already think like
that ? Does this seem so outrageous ? I dont think that it is outrageous at
all. Just very, very strange.

But, as we shall see, even more strange is the fact that if you are
given any number there is no way to determine if it is a sum or a product.
For any given number you therefore have a "duality", whether a given number
is dissected into a collection of identical constituents, or whether those
constituents all have different sizes, the sum and product are certainly
equal to each other and this is very mysterious. I think that it really is
mysterious, at least in terms of how it might be related to order and
disorder.




Passage 2

Elsewhere on these newsgroups I have been babbling ad nauseum regarding how
to justify treating length as being probabilistic. For brevity, much
material has been omitted here and we jump right into a couple interesting
considerations.

We want to use a "complex-like" number system where a is real and ~b is
taken to represent an uncertainty. Formally, I dont think that ~b is a
number, but it should obey certain rules of algebra as if it were.


Multiplication implies an everywhere probabilistic notion of length:
(a)*(~b)
| ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ |


Addition implies length which is well behaved everywhere except the
endpoint(s).
(a + ~b)
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| + (~ ~ ~)


Using these notions of length we can now imagine a space which is
"indeterminately either continuous or discrete". It seems quite tempting and
reasonable to try to explaion the wave-particle duality as being a result of
this indeterminacy.



Passage 3
Conclusion.

Lastly, compare and contrast these ideas. The ideas in the first passage,
and the ideas in the second passage. Clearly, addition and multiplication
lie at the very heart of both situations. Am I the only one who finds that
just a little bit peculiar ?

Is it possible that the wave particle duality boils down to something as
simple as just this ? An oddity related to multiplication, addition and
order ? Wouldn't that be strange if it were ?

I have tried to present this as non-technically as possible in order to
avoid losing the central notion in a sea of rigor and technicalities.
Perhaps the reader will find the general idea to be a thing of beauty, and
that is my hope.

Would'nt it be funny if the world's leading physicists had been stymied for
over a hundred years over something as simple as the difference between
addition and multiplication ? Would'nt that be funny ? Will they _ever_ live
it down ? : )

Regards,
Tomoko Kanazawa

Addition
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Addition.html
Multiplication
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Multiplication.html
"In physics, wave-particle duality holds that light and matter can
exhibit properties of both waves and of particles. This concept is
a key part of quantum mechanics".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-Particle_duality
This has been shown to hold true for any number of elementary
particles and large assemblages of atoms including buckyballs and
viruses.
.
User: "Tomoko Kanazawa"

Title: Re: Wave Particle Duality <=> Addition Multiplication Duality 16 May 2007 07:16:17 AM

Passage 3
Conclusion.

Lastly, compare and contrast these ideas. The ideas in the first

passage,

and the ideas in the second passage. Clearly, addition and

multiplication

lie at the very heart of both situations. Am I the only one who finds

that

just a little bit peculiar ?

Is it possible that the wave particle duality boils down to something as
simple as just this ? An oddity related to multiplication, addition and
order ? Wouldn't that be strange if it were ?

I have tried to present this as non-technically as possible in order to
avoid losing the central notion in a sea of rigor and technicalities.
Perhaps the reader will find the general idea to be a thing of beauty,

and

that is my hope.

Would'nt it be funny if the world's leading physicists had been stymied

for

over a hundred years over something as simple as the difference between
addition and multiplication ? Would'nt that be funny ? Will they _ever_

live

it down ? : )

Regards,
Tomoko Kanazawa


Addition
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Addition.html

Multiplication
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Multiplication.html

"In physics, wave-particle duality holds that light and matter can
exhibit properties of both waves and of particles. This concept is
a key part of quantum mechanics".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-Particle_duality

This has been shown to hold true for any number of elementary
particles and large assemblages of atoms including buckyballs and
viruses.

You are given a number, say 50. Is 50 the sum of things e.g. 10+10+10+10+10
? Or is 50 not in fact the product 5 * 10 ?
Obviously both are true. The number 50 is a product, and a sum. But if you
were to write it down on paper as in an equation of something you would be
forced to choose either one or the other. The choice may be arbitrary, but
addition and multiplcation are really quite different.
The difference becomes apparent as 50 is also the sum of amorphously sized
summands, e.g. 1 + 5 + 10 + 30 + 4.
This duality manifests itself in the fabric of spacetime and explains all of
the wave-particle duality phenomena of elementary particles and large
assemblages of atoms including buggerballs and viruses.
: )
Regards,
Tomoko
.
User: "conesetter"

Title: Re: Wave Particle Duality <=> Addition Multiplication Duality 18 May 2007 06:52:57 AM
Am I the only one who noticed the interesting typo above? Anyway good
luck with the research.
.
User: "Tomoko Kanazawa"

Title: Re: Wave Particle Duality <=> Addition Multiplication Duality 19 May 2007 10:09:11 AM
"conesetter" <conesetter@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:1179489177.049296.276100@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...



Am I the only one who noticed the interesting typo above? Anyway good
luck with the research.

Thanks. You know what's strange, I've never heard anyone mention topoligical
indeterminacy. Never seen it in any books. But I'll bet that plenty of
people have wondered about it.
If you come to a fork in the road and you dont know which way to go, if you
need to flip a coin, your path becomes indeterminate.
Maybe you will go in a straight line, maybe you'll double back and cross
your own path, perhaps you'll wander the path of some type of knot, who
knows. It's indeterminate.
Pascals triangle. You're going to flip a coin n times. Your path will have
structure, but it is indeterminate. Now, why is that not useful ? Just
because you dont know whether something is a knot or not, I dont think that
it's neccesarily not useful, just wierd.
Sooner or later probability theory is going to have to deal with the notion
of existence and nonexistence with respect to outcomes. Outcomes which dont
exist yet because they have not yet occured. Outcomes which are
existentially indeterminate, because you dont know whether a certain outcome
will exist or not.
Existential indeterminacy and topological indeterminacy just seem like
peaches and cream. I dont know why you wont find this approach anywhere,
I've always been mystified by that.
.

User: "The_Man"

Title: Re: Wave Particle Duality <=> Addition Multiplication Duality 19 May 2007 11:29:40 AM
On May 18, 7:52 am, conesetter <coneset...@btopenworld.com> wrote:

Am I the only one who noticed the interesting typo above? Anyway good
luck with the research.

Ah, yes - "buggerballs" :-)
.


User: "Sam Wormley"

Title: Re: Wave Particle Duality <=> Addition Multiplication Duality 16 May 2007 08:13:36 AM
Tomoko Kanazawa wrote:


You are given a number, say 50. Is 50 the sum of things e.g. 10+10+10+10+10
? Or is 50 not in fact the product 5 * 10 ?

So you don't confuse yourself, use two irrational numbers.
Addition
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Addition.html
Multiplication
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Multiplication.html
.
User: "Tomoko Kanazawa"

Title: Re: Wave Particle Duality <=> Addition Multiplication Duality 16 May 2007 08:32:33 PM

You are given a number, say 50. Is 50 the sum of things e.g.

10+10+10+10+10

? Or is 50 not in fact the product 5 * 10 ?


So you don't confuse yourself, use two irrational numbers.

Why stop there ?
For all a in R there exists a pair of numbers b and c s.t. a = b*c
And for all a in R there exists a pair of numbers e and f s.t. a = e +
f
For all a in R there exists numbers b,c,d,f s.t. a = b*c = e + f
You can take this as far as you want, but it's quite obvious to me that it
all points to that quizzical old equation
lambda = h / p
i.e. wavelength is directly associated with momentum
i.e. wave is directly associated with particle
and I say that multiplication is likewise linked to addition in the same
exact manner and with identical implications for physical reality,
so sayeth the Salamander Prince
=TIMETRAVELLER=
and Cubiq
.





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