| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Sergey Karavashkin" |
| Date: |
23 Aug 2006 09:10:10 AM |
| Object: |
Wave-particle duality |
Dear Colleagues,
Since in your studies on Relativity and Aether you necessarily use the
information and results of quantum theory, we would like to draw your
attention to our new paper. It clears the processes occurring in the
electron-atom interaction that produced, as is known, the wave-particle
duality. So now you can read and take into account this paper:
" On the wave-particle duality "
*Abstract*
We will study the phenomena of interference and diffraction of
electrons from the point of modelling of processes, basing on the
quantum-mechanical and classical approaches. We will reveal that when
we represent an electron as some wave function of state or of
probability of location in some region of space, it causes considerable
contradictions producing the wave-particle duality and incorrect
description of the phenomenon. In particular, probabilistic
representation of wave function by Born leads to the fact that such
probabilistic distribution has to exist also when electrons do not
interact with atoms. The probabilistic model premises only positive
values of probability, while the wave function is bipolar, which
additionally distorts the idea of properties of electron.
We will establish that the cause, why in the quantum-mechanical
representation the model is distorted, is that in frames of this
formalism the orbital motion of exterior electrons of atom is neglected
and, consequently, the field of atom is taken stationary. Then
interacting electrons have to have some spectrum of frequencies to
interact in resonance with the atom according to the Schroedinger
equation. This last causes full distortion of the wave function of
electron and factually cancels the spectrum of frequencies and as a
consequence the electron must turn into an EM wave of some resonance
frequency.
As an alternative to this representation, we will model the
electron's interaction with atom from the point of classical physics.
In this model the field of atom will be represented as a field of
skeleton and the field of the exterior orbital electron, due to which
the resulting field becomes dynamic in the near of atom. Basing on the
calculated dynamic field, we will model the interaction of the chain of
electrons with this field and reveal that electrons form the periodic
structure with the wavelength proportional to the product of period of
orbiting of orbital electron into the velocity of interacting
electrons. This wave-like formation propagates from the region of
interaction within some angle, gradually changing its shape because of
difference of velocities of the electrons after their interaction with
the atom. The electrons in this set propagate according to the
Rutherford model of scattering with account of the phase of dynamic
field of the atom. The superimposition of many such wave-like
formations causes the interference and diffraction patterns like the
patterns of X-rays.
This model will fully lift the wave-particle problem together with the
discrepancies inherent in the quantum-mechanical formalism.
Please read the full text here:
http://selftrans.narod.ru/v6_1/contents6_1.html#interference
Best to you all,
Sergey B. Karavashkin
Head Laboratory SELF
187 apt., 38 bldg.
Prospect Gagarina
Kharkov 61140
Ukraine
Phone: +38 (057) 7370624
e-mail: ,
http://selftrans.narod.ru/cover/cover.html
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| User: "Sergey Karavashkin" |
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| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
13 Sep 2006 12:01:19 PM |
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Autymn D. C. =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
THE_ONE wrote:
All Relativistic Events must involve units or Quanta, such that one may
relate to another for an event to occur. This brings Particles into the
picture.
Case #1) In the case of a two slit experiment involving Electrons that
are released only one at a time and are not released until the previous
Electron has completed the entire path from start to finish, in the
long run we will see interference patterns at the destination wall.
The Interference pattern becomes an EVENT.
Case #2) If we monitor the passing of each electron through one of the
two slits, then the interference pattern does not evolve. In this case
[blah blah blah]
The double-slit result happens by el=C3=A8ctric induction. There are
el=C3=A8ctr=C3=B2ns in the wall, after all.
-Aut
*slam*
If I understand you properly, dear Mrs Autymn, you are meaning under
the electric induction the affection of an orbital electron onto the
exterior electron. Correct? Excuse me that I ask you, for me the term
of electric induction is more associated with macro-processes. But if I
understood your meaning, you are right. Simply it is quite unexpected
for me. :)
Sergey
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| User: "RP" |
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| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
13 Sep 2006 02:16:01 PM |
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Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
Autymn D. C. =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
THE_ONE wrote:
All Relativistic Events must involve units or Quanta, such that one m=
ay
relate to another for an event to occur. This brings Particles into t=
he
picture.
Case #1) In the case of a two slit experiment involving Electrons th=
at
are released only one at a time and are not released until the previo=
us
Electron has completed the entire path from start to finish, in the
long run we will see interference patterns at the destination wall.
The Interference pattern becomes an EVENT.
Case #2) If we monitor the passing of each electron through one of the
two slits, then the interference pattern does not evolve. In this ca=
se
[blah blah blah]
The double-slit result happens by el=C3=A8ctric induction. There are
el=C3=A8ctr=C3=B2ns in the wall, after all.
-Aut
*slam*
If I understand you properly, dear Mrs Autymn, you are meaning under
the electric induction the affection of an orbital electron onto the
exterior electron. Correct? Excuse me that I ask you, for me the term
of electric induction is more associated with macro-processes. But if I
understood your meaning, you are right. Simply it is quite unexpected
for me. :)
Sergey
Sergey, I don't think that she implied that at all. I believe she was
only stating generally that "electromagnetic" induction is involved in
the production of the field that guides the electron. I'm afraid that I
don't see the relevance of electron orbitals. Inevitably they must be
involved on the microscopic level, but I think we should start first at
the macroscopic level in describing the production of the field
pattern, and then afterward explain the mechanism in terms of
quantum<sic> interactions. The pattern is macroscopic is it not? Please
explain your statement.
Richard Perry
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| User: "Sergey Karavashkin" |
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| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
14 Sep 2006 08:34:26 AM |
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RP =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Sergey, I don't think that she implied that at all. I believe she was
only stating generally that "electromagnetic" induction is involved in
the production of the field that guides the electron.
Just so, dear Richard. So it was unexpected for me. Although on the
other hand you will not argue, if the macrofield is produced by
electrons, in the microscale it will be an alike field. Another matter
that after the quantum conception has been introduced, it is done to
separate the macro- and micro-fields. We have to consider these issues
not in the context, whether these fields are really different, but
whether such separation is correct in frames of quantum conception. I
will emphasise it below. If we don=E2=80=99t introduce such artificial
separation, the outer electron=E2=80=99s interaction with the field of atom
is same EM induction and has to obey its laws, has not it?
I'm afraid that I
don't see the relevance of electron orbitals. Inevitably they must be
involved on the microscopic level, but I think we should start first at
the macroscopic level in describing the production of the field
pattern, and then afterward explain the mechanism in terms of
quantum<sic> interactions. The pattern is macroscopic is it not? Please
explain your statement.
Richard Perry
Let us, dear Richard, sequentially sort out the amount of questions you
raised.
1=2E As to the influence of electron orbitals. In the discussed work we
showed the electron=E2=80=99s interaction with the dynamic field of atom th=
at
produces the quasi-wave of charge after interaction. But the dynamic
field, - and we showed it in our paper, too, - is produced due to the
electron=E2=80=99s orbiting. We showed that the length of electron wave that
arises after its interaction with the field of atom has to be
proportional to the frequency of electron=E2=80=99s orbiting and to the spe=
ed
of particle running on. Well, this all what I wrote tells of direct
influence of the kind of orbit on formation of the resulting
interference pattern. If we advance in our calculation and account two
or more orbital electrons of an atom, the charge wave will reflect the
total pattern that arises due to the complicated dynamic field. From
the view of QM we have no right to form such dynamic field of the atom,
even for one orbital. According to Bohr postulate which we lifted in
other our paper,
http://selftrans.narod.ru/v4_1/quant/quant39/quant39.html
in the non-excited state the atom has no field. We just showed that the
dynamic field of nucleus stabilises and disables the electron to
=E2=80=98fall=E2=80=99 onto the nucleus. Bohr had to introduce his postulat=
e and to
blur the electron over the orbit, because it was impossible at his time
to model the dynamic field. His biographers write, he applied to many
mathematicians and physicists for help in solving this problem. The QM
founders undertook a simpler and incorrect way =E2=80=93 they introduced the
discrepancy in macro-field and absence of field of the non-excited
orbital electron, keeping the charge of electron and charge of nucleus.
Is not it a nonsense: the charge exists, the general configuration of
atom agreing with the central motion of electron (even blurred in the
orbit in the Bohr model) exists =E2=80=93 and the field that caused such
structure does not exist. None the less, just this is reflected in the
quantum conceptions in whose limits the quantum theory supporters tried
to consider interference. Just so they never were able to consider the
interaction of the outer electron with a neutral atom which is
indifferent to the electron running on =E2=80=93 and introduced the
non-compensated charge of atom, in order to so-so substantiate the
interaction. We described it here:
http://selftrans.narod.ru/v6_1/interference/interference47/interference47.h=
tml
Thus, if we approach the quantum problem conventionally, the duality
with all its discrepancies is unavoidable. But from the view of
classical conception where the fields of electron and proton does not
disappear in the non-excited state of the atom, - there remains the
dynamical field, the duality is lifted and all things get their proper
places.
2=2E I know, you will have a natural objection on the item 1 related to
the quantified radiation of atom. This logical consequence at due time,
in works by Nicholson and then Bohr, made a breakthrough, and at the
same time it took physics into the absurd of discrepancies, due just to
Bohr=E2=80=99s postulate. Let us look at the work of Planck and Bohr from t=
he
view of method they used in their models. We will see, they both
applied the energetic approach to solve the problem. Both had no
interest in the physics, how the system passes from one state to
another. They only took the initial and final states. From this view,
noting the resonance pattern of the system of atom, we clearly see
discrete energetic transitions. This predestined the success of
Bohr=E2=80=99s model.
But on the other hand, with all that the energetic approach itself is a
powerful method that allows to greatly simplify the solutions, - the
very method has considerable limitations. Thinking only of the initial
and final states in our model, we may not, basing on this solution,
make any physical interpretation substantiating the process, how the
system passed from one energetic level to another. We may only register
the fact of passing and total energy necessary for passing. The fathers
of QM have violated this rule, introducing the dualities, some
mathematical formulas like the Schroedinger equations etc. in attempts
to squeeze their description of energetic passing, taking off the
features of initial model and introducing the virtual ideas through the
likeness from the outwards. They did not lift the problem of Bohr=E2=80=99s
postulate that introduces the discrepancy between the presence of
charge of nucleus and electron and absence of fields of these charges.
If we ionise the atom, both atom and electron will have fields. But if
they join again into the neutral atom, the fields disappear. This all
exceeds the limits where the initial technique was correct. Thus, we
get a heap of paradoxes and absurds like EM waves as photons, electrons
as chains of waves and so on. This all is lifted at once when we come
back to classical physics and, doing not rejecting the way of Planck
and Bohr, go this way not in the energetic approach but modelling the
process of system=E2=80=99s passing from one energetic level to another. He=
re
we already may model processes and write the modelling equations
without risk to pass to unphysical fantasies.
Thus, if speaking of the future of quantum physics, the terms it uses
now will pass to non-existence. The Schroedinger equation (which, by
the way, is the analogue of the classical equation of the body=E2=80=99s
motion in the central field) will gain its initial meaning, and the
wave function being its solution will become nothing else than the
equation describing the electron=E2=80=99s orbiting. No dualities and
statistic distributions. This is how I see the future of science.
3=2E You are also right that, considering the issues of passing from the
macro- to micro-level, we should not forget that far from all problems
of EM field theory have been resolved at the macro-level. I mean the
problems of physical nature of magnetic field, of relativistic EM
field, correct account of dynamics of field and so on. Partially we try
to solve these issues and you can see it in our journal. In particular,
we showed that the conservation law of divergence of vector changes in
dynamic fields,
http://selftrans.narod.ru/archive/div/divergence/div1/div1.html
We showed that the induction laws being conventionally thought a genial
guess of Maxwell are factually the corollary of the conservation law
for dynamic vortex fields. In these frames we showed that the idea of
vortex electric field is incorrect. Also theoretically and
experimentally we proved that the gradient of scalar in dynamic field
has other appearance and substantiated the appearance of vectorial
potential, which still was not substantiated. We theoretically
substantiated and experimentally produced the longitudinal EM and
transverse acoustic waves. So we fully closed the analogy in EM field
and gas medium, having proven the possibility, transverse waves to
propagate in media without shear deformation. Of course, this is far
from being all necessary. Here we have mountains of work. We simply
have to go in parallel and to solve problems: on one hand, we have to
elaborate the field theory at the macro-level up to the state of close
conception, and on the other =E2=80=93 noting the features of approaches to
modelling, we have to join correctly the models at the micro-level with
the dynamic macro-pattern.
Indeed, I described it very brief and schematically, but this is how I
see the way of solving the problem in complex.
Sergey
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
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| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
14 Sep 2006 09:26:36 AM |
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RP wrote:
Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
If I understand you properly, dear Mrs Autymn, you are meaning under
the electric induction the affection of an orbital electron onto the
exterior electron. Correct? Excuse me that I ask you, for me the term
of electric induction is more associated with macro-processes. But if I
understood your meaning, you are right. Simply it is quite unexpected
for me. :)
Sergey, I don't think that she implied that at all. I believe she was
only stating generally that "electromagnetic" induction is involved in
the production of the field that guides the electron. I'm afraid that I
don't see the relevance of electron orbitals. Inevitably they must be
involved on the microscopic level, but I think we should start first at
the macroscopic level in describing the production of the field
pattern, and then afterward explain the mechanism in terms of
quantum<sic> interactions. The pattern is macroscopic is it not? Please
explain your statement.
Orbitals go out to the edges of the universe, as do fields and thus all
bodies. Neutrality is only a matter of scale and average, and a free
el=E8ctr=F2n will easily disrupt and polarize the orbitals of nearby
matter so that its charges can act as a repeater (in the transmission
sense) so that one particul can behave as ae extended near-field
influence that some folks interpret as a wave rather than the self-same
particul.
-Aut
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| User: "Sergey Karavashkin" |
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| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
15 Sep 2006 01:41:59 AM |
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Autymn D. C. =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Orbitals go out to the edges of the universe, as do fields and thus all
bodies. Neutrality is only a matter of scale and average, and a free
el=C3=A8ctr=C3=B2n will easily disrupt and polarize the orbitals of nearby
matter so that its charges can act as a repeater (in the transmission
sense) so that one particul can behave as ae extended near-field
influence that some folks interpret as a wave rather than the self-same
particul.
-Aut
Dear Autymn, no doubt, the fields decrease to the infinity, i.e. =E2=80=98to
the edges of the universe=E2=80=99. Only as to orbitals, I did not understa=
nd
your meaning. Atomic orbitals have an appearance quite limited in
space, or atom would have an infinite size. In distinct from field that
is formed in direction from the source, and according to the
conservation laws, decreases with the distance from source, the orbital
is only the trajectory of electron=E2=80=99s motion, it cannot go out =E2=
=80=98to
the edges of the universe=E2=80=99. This is the path of electron. Or explain
me please your meaning in more details. :)
Sergey
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| User: "RP" |
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| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
15 Sep 2006 07:46:28 AM |
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Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
Autymn D. C. =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Orbitals go out to the edges of the universe, as do fields and thus all
bodies. Neutrality is only a matter of scale and average, and a free
el=C3=A8ctr=C3=B2n will easily disrupt and polarize the orbitals of nea=
rby
matter so that its charges can act as a repeater (in the transmission
sense) so that one particul can behave as ae extended near-field
influence that some folks interpret as a wave rather than the self-same
particul.
-Aut
Dear Autymn, no doubt, the fields decrease to the infinity, i.e. =E2=80=
=98to
the edges of the universe=E2=80=99. Only as to orbitals, I did not unders=
tand
your meaning. Atomic orbitals have an appearance quite limited in
space, or atom would have an infinite size. In distinct from field that
is formed in direction from the source, and according to the
conservation laws, decreases with the distance from source, the orbital
is only the trajectory of electron=E2=80=99s motion, it cannot go out =E2=
=80=98to
the edges of the universe=E2=80=99. This is the path of electron. Or expl=
ain
me please your meaning in more details. :)
Sergey
Thank you, I missed that statement. I assumed that she was only stating
that their influence extends to infinity (the field), but I see that
she mentions the field seperately as also extending to infinity. I
agree with you on this point, the electron at the center of the field
has a finite velocity, and cannot be everywhere at once.=20
Richard Perry
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| User: "Sergey Karavashkin" |
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| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
15 Sep 2006 08:50:47 AM |
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RP =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Thank you, I missed that statement. I assumed that she was only stating
that their influence extends to infinity (the field), but I see that
she mentions the field seperately as also extending to infinity. I
agree with you on this point, the electron at the center of the field
has a finite velocity, and cannot be everywhere at once.
Richard Perry
Dear Richard, please excuse my insistence, but I did not hear from you,
what=E2=80=99s your attitude to my explanation of features of quantum
approach that relates, by my opinion, to the illegal extension of the
Planck=E2=80=99s and Bohr=E2=80=99s energetic method by the adherents of qu=
antum
theory. I=E2=80=99m interesting to hear your opinion.
Thank you,
Sergey
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| User: "RP" |
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| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
15 Sep 2006 02:10:46 PM |
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Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
RP =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Thank you, I missed that statement. I assumed that she was only stating
that their influence extends to infinity (the field), but I see that
she mentions the field seperately as also extending to infinity. I
agree with you on this point, the electron at the center of the field
has a finite velocity, and cannot be everywhere at once.
Richard Perry
Dear Richard, please excuse my insistence, but I did not hear from you,
what=E2=80=99s your attitude to my explanation of features of quantum
approach that relates, by my opinion, to the illegal extension of the
Planck=E2=80=99s and Bohr=E2=80=99s energetic method by the adherents of =
quantum
theory. I=E2=80=99m interesting to hear your opinion.
Thank you,
Sergey
Sure. I haven't had time to go over the material that you have linked,
but from your reply, I can only say that I have stated essentially the
same many times. There are of course many others who share similar
views. The primary difference between all of these people lies in their
particular suggested solutions. As of yet I have seen no full-fledged
alternative model that would be of practical use to those such as
engineers and working physicsists. That includes my own model, since I
have only the fundamental interaction between quanta of charge and some
speculations as to what behavior would result in on a time averaged
basis. In order to track the macroscopic time averaged effects produced
by this interaction we would need a powerful computer and a lot of
time, because even the smallest macrosystem borders on being infinitely
complex. I see the wave equations in the same light that you see them,
i=2Ee that they address only the superficial effects, while ignoring the
fundamental mechanisms and causes. It would be all the same for those
quantum theorists to regard the graph of a sales trend as the trend
itself. Certainly Maxwell never confused the average behaviors of gas
molecules with the behaviors described by Newtonian Mechanics. There
are statistical averages, and there is the underlying activity that
produced those averages. A wave isn't fundamental, it requires
something to be waving.
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| User: "Sergey Karavashkin" |
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| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
15 Sep 2006 11:00:44 PM |
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RP =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Sure. I haven't had time to go over the material that you have linked,
but from your reply, I can only say that I have stated essentially the
same many times. There are of course many others who share similar
views. The primary difference between all of these people lies in their
particular suggested solutions. As of yet I have seen no full-fledged
alternative model that would be of practical use to those such as
engineers and working physicsists. That includes my own model, since I
have only the fundamental interaction between quanta of charge and some
speculations as to what behavior would result in on a time averaged
basis. In order to track the macroscopic time averaged effects produced
by this interaction we would need a powerful computer and a lot of
time, because even the smallest macrosystem borders on being infinitely
complex. I see the wave equations in the same light that you see them,
i.e that they address only the superficial effects, while ignoring the
fundamental mechanisms and causes. It would be all the same for those
quantum theorists to regard the graph of a sales trend as the trend
itself. Certainly Maxwell never confused the average behaviors of gas
molecules with the behaviors described by Newtonian Mechanics. There
are statistical averages, and there is the underlying activity that
produced those averages. A wave isn't fundamental, it requires
something to be waving.
Dear Richard, you have intrigued me. Can I see in Internet something of
your work, of what you are ready to show?
Sergey
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| User: "RP" |
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| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
16 Sep 2006 12:11:00 AM |
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Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
RP =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Sure. I haven't had time to go over the material that you have linked,
but from your reply, I can only say that I have stated essentially the
same many times. There are of course many others who share similar
views. The primary difference between all of these people lies in their
particular suggested solutions. As of yet I have seen no full-fledged
alternative model that would be of practical use to those such as
engineers and working physicsists. That includes my own model, since I
have only the fundamental interaction between quanta of charge and some
speculations as to what behavior would result in on a time averaged
basis. In order to track the macroscopic time averaged effects produced
by this interaction we would need a powerful computer and a lot of
time, because even the smallest macrosystem borders on being infinitely
complex. I see the wave equations in the same light that you see them,
i.e that they address only the superficial effects, while ignoring the
fundamental mechanisms and causes. It would be all the same for those
quantum theorists to regard the graph of a sales trend as the trend
itself. Certainly Maxwell never confused the average behaviors of gas
molecules with the behaviors described by Newtonian Mechanics. There
are statistical averages, and there is the underlying activity that
produced those averages. A wave isn't fundamental, it requires
something to be waving.
Dear Richard, you have intrigued me. Can I see in Internet something of
your work, of what you are ready to show?
Sergey
Well Sergey, I haven't had my site up and running for some time now,
having grown bored with it at the time that I deleted its contents. But
I managed to find this passage from an old thread. I suppose that this
would count as something "in Internet," as you put it. :)
* Prefatory note: This was posted in response to a thread about the
"production of em waves." It is an extract of that reply and
simultaneously of my paper, on the subject of static electromagnetic
principles, or "First Principles", as I titled it. I have revised the
paper since that printing, though the following portion was barely
changed:
* Also note that the first equation is for the resultant force
acting between two point charges in motion wrt each other. I used small
q in contrast to popular convention to mean "charge", and large Q to
mean l"ine density of charge" or "q/L." The second equation is
perfectly equivalent to the first. You can excahange the constants of
permittivity and permeability at will, since they are related by a
constant conversion factor. In other words they have no intrinsic value
as physical descriptors. There is only one force, and thus the decision
to use one constant over the other reduces to a purely arbitrary
decision. ]
To be quite honest with you, I'm am much more proud of my derivation of
an invariant and more general form of the Newtonian centripetal force
equation, which is provided in the text below. Without which I could
not have derived a stable atomic orbit with such mathematical
simplicity. Regards, Richard Perry]
"[...]
-F =3D [ 3 mu_o q q' ( v_q sin_a - v_q' sin_b )^2 ] / ( 16 pi d^2 ) (
Eq.14 )
Or the equivalent form:
-F =3D [ 3 k q q' ( v_q sin_a - v_q' sin_b )^2 ] / ( 4 c^2 d^2 ) (
Eq.15 )
In both Eq.14 and Eq.15 v_q and v_q' differ from the similar
expressions incorporated earlier , in that these are
the scalar speeds of the particles through the observers frame of
reference (space) such that:
v_q =3D sqrt [ ( v^2_q_x ) + ( v^2_q_y )] and v_q' =3D sqrt [ (
v^2_q'_x ) + ( v^2_q'_y )], where the quanta are moving along
the same plane. The force is always directed along the line
joining the charges. (Sin a) is the angle formed by the line of
motion of q and the line joining the particles, and (sin b) is the
angle formed by the line of motion of q' and the line
joining the particles. Both of these sines are equal to 1 when the
particles are moving in parallel paths and are joined by a
perpendicular drawn through those paths, such as found in a
circular orbital system.
d is not the radius, but rather the displacement between the charges.
In the case of two quanta of charge, only a magnetostatic
interaction (non-classical) is provided by the equation, i.e.
there will be no electrostatic component of force generated
between
two quanta of charge. The electrostatic interaction
is a macroscopic effect generated between aggregates of charge, as
previously discussed.
Eq.14 (or Eq.15) integrates to produce all of the previous
equations precisely as they are presented within this text, and
is proposed as the fundamental electromagnetic event, from which
all effects can be derived, through integration.
The following is an additional relevant observation: Given a
circular orbit of a positron/electron pair, the Newtonian
centripetal force is given by the vector form of the Newtonian
equation:
F_centripetal =3D [ m m' ( v_m - v_m' )^2 ] / ( m + m' ) d (
Eq.16)
Since the magnetostatic force given by Eq.15 is the centripetal
force binding the masses in orbit, then in this instance
Eq.15 =3D Eq.16, i.e. the two equations give same force, or:
[ -3 k q q' ( v_q - v_q' )^2 ] / ( 4 c^2 d^2 ) =3D [ m m' ( v_m -
v_m' )^2 ] / ( m + m' ) d
This reduces to:
-3 k q q' / ( 4 c^2 d ) =3D m m' / ( m + m' ) Which rearranges to
form:
-k q q' / d =3D [ 4 m m' c^2 ] / [ 3 ( m + m' ) ] ( Eq.17 )
Or:
-P.E._electrical =3D [ 4 m m' c^2 ] / [ 3 ( m + m' ) ] ) Or
simply:
-E =3D [ 4 m m' c^2 ] / [ 3 ( m + m' ) ]. If m =3D m' then this
reduces finally to:
-E =3D m c^2 (2 / 3) The famous equation, with a slight
correction to the classical factor of 1, simply falls into our laps.
*When m<<m' the factor resolves to (4 / 3); an average of the two
limits (2 / 3) and (4 / 3) is approximately 1 thus providing as a
general case for neutral masses:
-E =3D m c^2
Moreover, rearranging Eq.17 shows that d, the displacement between
particles (the orbital diameter), is constant and
independent of the angular velocity of the particles, viz.:
-k q q' / d =3D [ 4 m m' c^2 ] / [ 3 (m + m' ) ] ( Eq.17 )
d =3D [-3 k q q' ( m + m' )] / [ 4 m m' c^2 ] ( Eq.18 ) "
This last equation expresses the constancy of orbital 'diameter', the
orbital radius is therefore also constant. Note also that 'invariance'
is provided by using only invariant expressions in the equations. This
was apparently too obvious an approach for those who had earlier
thought
it wise to overcomplicate the issue of the principle of relativity. It
is the speeds of particles 'relative to one another' that determines
the
[the outcome of the interactions]. Our frame of reference cannot
logically
alter the involved elements as is the case with Maxwell/Lorentz,
wherein
the magnetic field exists or doesn't exist depending only upon our
frame of
reference.
[...]"
edited slightly from the original. In those days I had a
misunderstanding regarding Minkowski's spacetime, which I later
resolved. I still find Purcell's relativistic description of the
magnetic force to be contradictory to reason and even to the empirical
evidence. The primary source of error in treating static forces with
special relativity, is that there are no delays involved, and thus we
are dealing with a perfectly time independent Euclidean plane. We are
not forced to transform between frames of reference either, but can
resolve to describe every detail without leaving our place of
observation. Once having done so from one frame, the objective outcomes
must necessarily be the outcomes derived wrt any other frame, be it
inertial or accellerated. Thus in the case of statics, special
relativity has no final jurisdiction.
.
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| User: "Sue..." |
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| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
16 Sep 2006 12:50:04 AM |
|
|
RP wrote:
[...]
<< I still find Purcell's relativistic description of the
magnetic force to be contradictory to reason and
even to the empirical evidence. The primary source
of error in treating static forces with
special relativity, is that there are no delays involved,
and thus we are dealing with a perfectly time independent
Euclidean plane. >>
Indeed... few realise how aburd the Purcell description is or how
little is returned in Smith-Purcell radiation. There seems no
substitute for a through foundation in the time independent
three dimensional integral form and far too little tutorial
material on the web. I use this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_integral
....with the hope that someone will put a bit more polish
on it someday. Hint hint ;o)
Sue...
We are
not forced to transform between frames of reference either, but can
resolve to describe every detail without leaving our place of
observation. Once having done so from one frame, the objective outcomes
must necessarily be the outcomes derived wrt any other frame, be it
inertial or accellerated. Thus in the case of statics, special
relativity has no final jurisdiction.
.
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|
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
|
| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
16 Sep 2006 08:52:49 AM |
|
|
Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
Autymn D. C. =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Orbitals go out to the edges of the universe, as do fields and thus all
bodies. Neutrality is only a matter of scale and average, and a free
el=C3=A8ctr=C3=B2n will easily disrupt and polarize the orbitals of nea=
rby
matter so that its charges can act as a repeater (in the transmission
sense) so that one particul can behave as ae extended near-field
influence that some folks interpret as a wave rather than the self-same
particul.
Dear Autymn, no doubt, the fields decrease to the infinity, i.e. =E2=80=
=98to
the edges of the universe=E2=80=99. Only as to orbitals, I did not unders=
tand
your meaning. Atomic orbitals have an appearance quite limited in
space, or atom would have an infinite size. In distinct from field that
is formed in direction from the source, and according to the
conservation laws, decreases with the distance from source, the orbital
is only the trajectory of electron=E2=80=99s motion, it cannot go out =E2=
=80=98to
the edges of the universe=E2=80=99. This is the path of electron. Or expl=
ain
me please your meaning in more details. :)
Don't you know that orbitals are only limited in drawings to some
fraction of their size, like psi_90? When atoms bond, only their nodes
intersect to give the illusion that the atoms have that size. Every
quantum has ae inner size, which corresponds to its baruc=C3=A8ntre and
el=C3=A8ctroc=C3=A8ntre and its classic size as a mote, and ae outer size,
which corresponds to its domain and range. When one thinks of the path
of your el=C3=A8ctr=C3=B2n, one draws a 1D world line rather than as it sho=
uld
be, a 4D world.. uh.. gline, as in glome. As there are no regions at
absolute zero, there are none with no E or M or S fields (Google my
strofsis and strofic) because, by definition, the universe and its
coordinates only exist where they and their corollary forces exist.
Size and distance are the same.
-Aut
.
|
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| User: "Sergey Karavashkin" |
|
| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
17 Sep 2006 06:50:49 AM |
|
|
Autymn D. C. =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Don't you know that orbitals are only limited in drawings to some
fraction of their size, like psi_90? When atoms bond, only their nodes
intersect to give the illusion that the atoms have that size. Every
quantum has ae inner size, which corresponds to its baruc=C3=A8ntre and
el=C3=A8ctroc=C3=A8ntre and its classic size as a mote, and ae outer size,
which corresponds to its domain and range. When one thinks of the path
of your el=C3=A8ctr=C3=B2n, one draws a 1D world line rather than as it s=
hould
be, a 4D world.. uh.. gline, as in glome. As there are no regions at
absolute zero, there are none with no E or M or S fields (Google my
strofsis and strofic) because, by definition, the universe and its
coordinates only exist where they and their corollary forces exist.
Size and distance are the same.
-Aut
I think, dear Autymn, you ought not to try thinking the classical
physics in terms of quantum conception. In the quantum conception, the
concept of orbitals is senseless. There exists only the state in the
potential well whose size is limited. In the problem that we presented
for discussion here, the wave-particle duality is solved strongly in
frames of classical physics. Just due to this, there appeared orbitals,
dynamic field of atom and interaction with the outer electron. If you
think in frames of quantum conception, you should agree with inevitable
duality and with many silly things which this conception takes as an
absolute truth. Then our solutions are useless for you. :)
Sergey
.
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| User: "RP" |
|
| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
16 Sep 2006 11:14:18 AM |
|
|
Autymn D. C. wrote:
Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
Autymn D. C. =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Orbitals go out to the edges of the universe, as do fields and thus a=
ll
bodies. Neutrality is only a matter of scale and average, and a free
el=C3=A8ctr=C3=B2n will easily disrupt and polarize the orbitals of n=
earby
matter so that its charges can act as a repeater (in the transmission
sense) so that one particul can behave as ae extended near-field
influence that some folks interpret as a wave rather than the self-sa=
me
particul.
Dear Autymn, no doubt, the fields decrease to the infinity, i.e. =E2=80=
=98to
the edges of the universe=E2=80=99. Only as to orbitals, I did not unde=
rstand
your meaning. Atomic orbitals have an appearance quite limited in
space, or atom would have an infinite size. In distinct from field that
is formed in direction from the source, and according to the
conservation laws, decreases with the distance from source, the orbital
is only the trajectory of electron=E2=80=99s motion, it cannot go out =
=E2=80=98to
the edges of the universe=E2=80=99. This is the path of electron. Or ex=
plain
me please your meaning in more details. :)
Don't you know that orbitals are only limited in drawings to some
fraction of their size, like psi_90? When atoms bond, only their nodes
intersect to give the illusion that the atoms have that size.
Ok.
Every
quantum has ae inner size, which corresponds to its baruc=C3=A8ntre and
el=C3=A8ctroc=C3=A8ntre and its classic size as a mote, and ae outer size,
which corresponds to its domain and range.
Then you believe the barycenter to occupy a non-zero volume? Evidence
thus far suggest strongly that it does not, down to the limits of
measuability. It is a singularity.
When one thinks of the path
of your el=C3=A8ctr=C3=B2n, one draws a 1D world line rather than as it s=
hould
be, a 4D world.. uh.. gline, as in glome.
I can't speak for Sergey's electron, but my electrons are 4D
extentions. The singularity represents the point in time at which we
observe the electron. With the electron at rest its field is described
by concentric isobaric spheres. These isobars represent regions of
constant curvature of space. As we travel radially away from the
singularity the magntude of the curvature decreases. in terms of the
force exterted on another electron lower curvature corresponds to a
smaller force. It is an inverse square field. Additionally the
successive layers of this onion correspond to different points in time,
according to the Minkowski metric.
t =3D sqrt(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)/c
The electron's field is a rigid structure when viewed from the 4D
perspective. But against the backdrop of 3D space plus time (Galilean
spacetime) that we are accustomed to think in terms of, the field is
only inverse square so long as the electron remians at rest. In this
special case the field strength at r at times t and t' remains
constant. But when the electron is in motion this no longer holds, or
in other words the field appears to lag behind the electron, which in
turn produces the observed finite speed of interaction, which occurs at
c=2E This constant thus defines the relationship between 4D spacetime and
our Galilean perspective.
However, in the context of 4D spacetime the isobars are perfectly
fixed wrt the singularity, and I would say "at all times" but for the
fact that there is no time in 4D spacetime there is instead a ct axes,
which is dimensionally another spatial extention. Interactions occur
directly between electrons with no medium of propagation, nor even with
the help of mediators, because they don't actually occur. Instead these
are just regular patterns in a rigid 4D block manifold.
For all practical purposes we can dispense with the field altogether as
a physical entity and say simply that all electrons are related one to
the other by a set of values that represent some unkown relationship,
and which share an ordering between them. The field can be considered
to be a mathematical entity only, with points not occupied by an
electron being just a prediction of the mathematical relationship that
would exist with any electron that might happen migrate into that
position. What the substance of these relationships might actually be,
we cannot know, but we are designed by nature to interpret them in a
practical way, fit for our functioning and survival.
The most natural interpreation of space is of some invisible physical
substance separating visible objects. This hypothetical substance was
given the name space, and later assumed to be something similar in
nature to matter, in the form of the Aether. Einstein, and especially
with the help of Minkowski, showed by logical argument, that our
perceptions were not trustworthy. We are only looking at shadows on the
wall.
With his box-within-a-box argument, he quickly concluded that if we
were to retain the notion of space as a substance, then a different
space must be rigidly attached to each and every frame of reference in
the universe. There would have to be an infinite number of aethers, all
in motion wrt each other. Thus bringing to an abrupt end the notion of
space as a singular entity distinct from the objects within it. Space
isn't something that objects move relative to. Motion can be defined
only in terms of objects changing position wrt each other.
In my view there are indeed an infinite number of aethers, and these
are what we call electrons, whose fields are these many spaces that
Einstein referred to and simultaneously the substance of those
electrons. Space, matter, and field are all one and the same thing.
I'm speaking of electrons of both the positive and negative sort, and
thus am implying positrons as well.
As there are no regions at
absolute zero, there are none with no E or M or S fields (Google my
strofsis and strofic) because, by definition, the universe and its
coordinates only exist where they and their corollary forces exist.
Aha!! I should have made reference to your statement here, when I said
as much above. I'm happy to find that you've been paying some
attention. :)
Size and distance are the same.
=20
-Aut
Richard Perry
.
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| User: "Sergey Karavashkin" |
|
| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
17 Sep 2006 06:53:00 AM |
|
|
RP =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Ok.
Every
quantum has ae inner size, which corresponds to its baruc=C3=A8ntre and
el=C3=A8ctroc=C3=A8ntre and its classic size as a mote, and ae outer si=
ze,
which corresponds to its domain and range.
Then you believe the barycenter to occupy a non-zero volume? Evidence
thus far suggest strongly that it does not, down to the limits of
measuability. It is a singularity.
Sorry, dear Richard, but here, just as in the post of Autymn, the idea
of barycentre clearly is irrelevant to the problem which we suggested
to discuss. :) This is rather like Feynman=E2=80=99s puzzle play when one
takes from different areas of physics some flowery scientific-like
terms to make from them an infernal cocktail. :)
When one thinks of the path
of your el=C3=A8ctr=C3=B2n, one draws a 1D world line rather than as it=
should
be, a 4D world.. uh.. gline, as in glome.
I can't speak for Sergey's electron, but my electrons are 4D
extentions. The singularity represents the point in time at which we
observe the electron. With the electron at rest its field is described
by concentric isobaric spheres. These isobars represent regions of
constant curvature of space. As we travel radially away from the
singularity the magntude of the curvature decreases. in terms of the
force exterted on another electron lower curvature corresponds to a
smaller force. It is an inverse square field. Additionally the
successive layers of this onion correspond to different points in time,
according to the Minkowski metric.
t =3D sqrt(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)/c
Oh, what a cocktail! First, after Einstein, in one frame the
simultaneity is impossible. It arises as a consequence of passing from
one frame to another. This causes double time in the frame. One time
relates to the frame, it is homogeneous in the whole frame and all
events from the point of this time can be agreed in the view of
simultaneity. The second concept of time arises in passing from one
frame to another. Here appears just the mythical non-simultaneity which
factually is nothing else as incorrect inclination of the plane of
events which arises in the Lorentz transforms. If you admit the
Minkowski construction, you automatically admit Einstein=E2=80=99s postulate
of the constant speed of light in all frames. With it, your objection
to Henry Haapalainen concerning accelerated frames becomes strange for
me.
Second, if we follow the logic which you posted me, stationary fields
are basically impossible. You multiply use the product of your quantum
charge (projection of charge onto the axis). Any statistic work with
this result will give zero in the average in all directions of motion.
From this, such charged bodies like electrostatically charged balls
basically cannot exist. Furthermore, you are operating with the
determined location of charge in space. From the point of QM it is
basically impossible. And the charge as such is absent in QM, there is
the wave function and its properties.
So my opinion is, you would make yourself a great favour if stopping
attempts to join the relativistic and quantum gibberish with classical
formalism. Choose for yourself, in which formalism do you work. If in
quantum and relativistic =E2=80=93 you can better forget the terms with whi=
ch
you are operating now. There are no orbitals, no central field, there
you can simply prove that electrons, protons and any other particles
are black holes. You can simply delete your formulas, as you have
introduced them (hopefully) in other premises.
But if you are trying to operate with classical formalism, it is
strange when you agree with Autymn concerning psi-function. The more
that she is also incorrect in this sense, she demonstrates merely
formal approach to the wave function and illegitimately interrelates
the idea of wave function with the idea of orbitals. There are no and
basically cannot be orbitals in QM. Furthermore, if we consider your
solutions in frames of classical formalism, we will find few important
objections related to the forces of interaction between the charges
incorrectly equalised to the gravity interaction:
[ -3 k q q' ( v_q - v_q' )^2 ] / ( 4 c^2 d^2 ) =3D [ m m' ( v_m -
v_m' )^2 ] / ( m + m' ) d
Even in your formulas, when changing the sign of one of your quanta (q
or q'), the resulting force will change its direction to the opposite.
Or does your mass change its sign? And in the left part you have a sign
=E2=80=98minus=E2=80=99, while you haven=E2=80=99t it in the right part; wi=
th related
values of quantum charges (both positive either both negative), the
equality will be true with accuracy to the sign. Finally, in the left
part you have used the dielectric constant, while in the right part the
gravity constant is absent. If you account it, you will see that with
the known experimental values of charges, the right part never will be
equal to that left but will be well less. Due to your equalisation, the
gravity interaction between these particles will change to the
opposite.
Thus, as to me, you can be sure: we don=E2=80=99t play with the absurdity of
Minkowski space and with smeared electrons of QM, and don=E2=80=99t advice
you to play with them. :) There are no solutions, as it is impossible
to join incompatible things, combining the phantasmagorias of modern
physics with the basis of classical physics.
Sergey
The electron's field is a rigid structure when viewed from the 4D
perspective. But against the backdrop of 3D space plus time (Galilean
spacetime) that we are accustomed to think in terms of, the field is
only inverse square so long as the electron remians at rest. In this
special case the field strength at r at times t and t' remains
constant. But when the electron is in motion this no longer holds, or
in other words the field appears to lag behind the electron, which in
turn produces the observed finite speed of interaction, which occurs at
c. This constant thus defines the relationship between 4D spacetime and
our Galilean perspective.
However, in the context of 4D spacetime the isobars are perfectly
fixed wrt the singularity, and I would say "at all times" but for the
fact that there is no time in 4D spacetime there is instead a ct axes,
which is dimensionally another spatial extention. Interactions occur
directly between electrons with no medium of propagation, nor even with
the help of mediators, because they don't actually occur. Instead these
are just regular patterns in a rigid 4D block manifold.
For all practical purposes we can dispense with the field altogether as
a physical entity and say simply that all electrons are related one to
the other by a set of values that represent some unkown relationship,
and which share an ordering between them. The field can be considered
to be a mathematical entity only, with points not occupied by an
electron being just a prediction of the mathematical relationship that
would exist with any electron that might happen migrate into that
position. What the substance of these relationships might actually be,
we cannot know, but we are designed by nature to interpret them in a
practical way, fit for our functioning and survival.
The most natural interpreation of space is of some invisible physical
substance separating visible objects. This hypothetical substance was
given the name space, and later assumed to be something similar in
nature to matter, in the form of the Aether. Einstein, and especially
with the help of Minkowski, showed by logical argument, that our
perceptions were not trustworthy. We are only looking at shadows on the
wall.
With his box-within-a-box argument, he quickly concluded that if we
were to retain the notion of space as a substance, then a different
space must be rigidly attached to each and every frame of reference in
the universe. There would have to be an infinite number of aethers, all
in motion wrt each other. Thus bringing to an abrupt end the notion of
space as a singular entity distinct from the objects within it. Space
isn't something that objects move relative to. Motion can be defined
only in terms of objects changing position wrt each other.
In my view there are indeed an infinite number of aethers, and these
are what we call electrons, whose fields are these many spaces that
Einstein referred to and simultaneously the substance of those
electrons. Space, matter, and field are all one and the same thing.
I'm speaking of electrons of both the positive and negative sort, and
thus am implying positrons as well.
As there are no regions at
absolute zero, there are none with no E or M or S fields (Google my
strofsis and strofic) because, by definition, the universe and its
coordinates only exist where they and their corollary forces exist.
Aha!! I should have made reference to your statement here, when I said
as much above. I'm happy to find that you've been paying some
attention. :)
=20
Size and distance are the same.
=20
-Aut
=20
Richard Perry
.
|
|
|
| User: "RP" |
|
| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
17 Sep 2006 08:15:50 AM |
|
|
Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
RP =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Ok.
Every
quantum has ae inner size, which corresponds to its baruc=C3=A8ntre a=
nd
el=C3=A8ctroc=C3=A8ntre and its classic size as a mote, and ae outer =
size,
which corresponds to its domain and range.
Then you believe the barycenter to occupy a non-zero volume? Evidence
thus far suggest strongly that it does not, down to the limits of
measuability. It is a singularity.
Sorry, dear Richard, but here, just as in the post of Autymn, the idea
of barycentre clearly is irrelevant to the problem which we suggested
to discuss. :) This is rather like Feynman=E2=80=99s puzzle play when one
takes from different areas of physics some flowery scientific-like
terms to make from them an infernal cocktail. :)
When one thinks of the path
of your el=C3=A8ctr=C3=B2n, one draws a 1D world line rather than as =
it should
be, a 4D world.. uh.. gline, as in glome.
I can't speak for Sergey's electron, but my electrons are 4D
extentions. The singularity represents the point in time at which we
observe the electron. With the electron at rest its field is described
by concentric isobaric spheres. These isobars represent regions of
constant curvature of space. As we travel radially away from the
singularity the magntude of the curvature decreases. in terms of the
force exterted on another electron lower curvature corresponds to a
smaller force. It is an inverse square field. Additionally the
successive layers of this onion correspond to different points in time,
according to the Minkowski metric.
t =3D sqrt(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)/c
Oh, what a cocktail! First, after Einstein, in one frame the
simultaneity is impossible. It arises as a consequence of passing from
one frame to another. This causes double time in the frame. One time
relates to the frame, it is homogeneous in the whole frame and all
events from the point of this time can be agreed in the view of
simultaneity. The second concept of time arises in passing from one
frame to another. Here appears just the mythical non-simultaneity which
factually is nothing else as incorrect inclination of the plane of
events which arises in the Lorentz transforms. If you admit the
Minkowski construction, you automatically admit Einstein=E2=80=99s postul=
ate
of the constant speed of light in all frames. With it, your objection
to Henry Haapalainen concerning accelerated frames becomes strange for
me.
Second, if we follow the logic which you posted me, stationary fields
are basically impossible. You multiply use the product of your quantum
charge (projection of charge onto the axis). Any statistic work with
this result will give zero in the average in all directions of motion.
From this, such charged bodies like electrostatically charged balls
basically cannot exist. Furthermore, you are operating with the
determined location of charge in space. From the point of QM it is
basically impossible. And the charge as such is absent in QM, there is
the wave function and its properties.
So my opinion is, you would make yourself a great favour if stopping
attempts to join the relativistic and quantum gibberish with classical
formalism. Choose for yourself, in which formalism do you work. If in
quantum and relativistic =E2=80=93 you can better forget the terms with w=
hich
you are operating now. There are no orbitals, no central field, there
you can simply prove that electrons, protons and any other particles
are black holes. You can simply delete your formulas, as you have
introduced them (hopefully) in other premises.
But if you are trying to operate with classical formalism, it is
strange when you agree with Autymn concerning psi-function. The more
that she is also incorrect in this sense, she demonstrates merely
formal approach to the wave function and illegitimately interrelates
the idea of wave function with the idea of orbitals. There are no and
basically cannot be orbitals in QM. Furthermore, if we consider your
solutions in frames of classical formalism, we will find few important
objections related to the forces of interaction between the charges
incorrectly equalised to the gravity interaction:
[ -3 k q q' ( v_q - v_q' )^2 ] / ( 4 c^2 d^2 ) =3D [ m m' ( v_m -
v_m' )^2 ] / ( m + m' ) d
Even in your formulas, when changing the sign of one of your quanta (q
or q'), the resulting force will change its direction to the opposite.
Or does your mass change its sign? And in the left part you have a sign
=E2=80=98minus=E2=80=99, while you haven=E2=80=99t it in the right part; =
with related
values of quantum charges (both positive either both negative), the
equality will be true with accuracy to the sign. Finally, in the left
part you have used the dielectric constant, while in the right part the
gravity constant is absent. If you account it, you will see that with
the known experimental values of charges, the right part never will be
equal to that left but will be well less. Due to your equalisation, the
gravity interaction between these particles will change to the
opposite.
Thus, as to me, you can be sure: we don=E2=80=99t play with the absurdity=
of
Minkowski space and with smeared electrons of QM, and don=E2=80=99t advice
you to play with them. :) There are no solutions, as it is impossible
to join incompatible things, combining the phantasmagorias of modern
physics with the basis of classical physics.
Sergey
The electron's field is a rigid structure when viewed from the 4D
perspective. But against the backdrop of 3D space plus time (Galilean
spacetime) that we are accustomed to think in terms of, the field is
only inverse square so long as the electron remians at rest. In this
special case the field strength at r at times t and t' remains
constant. But when the electron is in motion this no longer holds, or
in other words the field appears to lag behind the electron, which in
turn produces the observed finite speed of interaction, which occurs at
c. This constant thus defines the relationship between 4D spacetime and
our Galilean perspective.
However, in the context of 4D spacetime the isobars are perfectly
fixed wrt the singularity, and I would say "at all times" but for the
fact that there is no time in 4D spacetime there is instead a ct axes,
which is dimensionally another spatial extention. Interactions occur
directly between electrons with no medium of propagation, nor even with
the help of mediators, because they don't actually occur. Instead these
are just regular patterns in a rigid 4D block manifold.
For all practical purposes we can dispense with the field altogether as
a physical entity and say simply that all electrons are related one to
the other by a set of values that represent some unkown relationship,
and which share an ordering between them. The field can be considered
to be a mathematical entity only, with points not occupied by an
electron being just a prediction of the mathematical relationship that
would exist with any electron that might happen migrate into that
position. What the substance of these relationships might actually be,
we cannot know, but we are designed by nature to interpret them in a
practical way, fit for our functioning and survival.
The most natural interpreation of space is of some invisible physical
substance separating visible objects. This hypothetical substance was
given the name space, and later assumed to be something similar in
nature to matter, in the form of the Aether. Einstein, and especially
with the help of Minkowski, showed by logical argument, that our
perceptions were not trustworthy. We are only looking at shadows on the
wall.
With his box-within-a-box argument, he quickly concluded that if we
were to retain the notion of space as a substance, then a different
space must be rigidly attached to each and every frame of reference in
the universe. There would have to be an infinite number of aethers, all
in motion wrt each other. Thus bringing to an abrupt end the notion of
space as a singular entity distinct from the objects within it. Space
isn't something that objects move relative to. Motion can be defined
only in terms of objects changing position wrt each other.
In my view there are indeed an infinite number of aethers, and these
are what we call electrons, whose fields are these many spaces that
Einstein referred to and simultaneously the substance of those
electrons. Space, matter, and field are all one and the same thing.
I'm speaking of electrons of both the positive and negative sort, and
thus am implying positrons as well.
As there are no regions at
absolute zero, there are none with no E or M or S fields (Google my
strofsis and strofic) because, by definition, the universe and its
coordinates only exist where they and their corollary forces exist.
Aha!! I should have made reference to your statement here, when I said
as much above. I'm happy to find that you've been paying some
attention. :)
Size and distance are the same.
-Aut
Richard Perry
Dear Sergey,
Here I have provided a recipe for stability of classical atomic orbits
involving only electromagnetic influences, and you argue that I am
discussing a quantum model? Tsk.
As for the negative sign on the left with none on the right, perhaps
you were bit shortsighted--surely you relize that any variable
expressed as a letter can be either a negative or positive value. For
instance the equation
c =3D b-a
Now if a is larger than b, then c will be negative, and yet I suppose
because we have omitted the negative sign you find fallacy in this
standard algebraic convention. On the right hand side of the force
equation you should note that charge exists in the positive and the
negative forms, and that as you suggested, yes, if you change the sign
of either of these then the force will become positive, which is
perfecly in accord with the empirical data, is it not?
As for my views concerning the principle of equivalence, I see no
reason for concern on your part. The PoE is nothing more than an idea,
an idea that has no counterpart in the mathematical formalism. It plays
the same role in the general theory of relativy that Aether played in
the Lorentz interpreation of his transform. It is redundant.
In his simple derivation of gravitational time dilation, where Einstein
compared the ticking rates of clocks located at different postions on a
spinning disk, the result was that the ticking rate was related to an
inertial potential (counterpart to electrical potential), which
Einstein called at the start of the derivation a gravitational
potential. Now whether the force be centripetal or gravitational, there
exists an inertial potential, and thus the ticking rate must be altered
in either of these fields. From this mathematical observation one
cannot derive the PoE, as it was stated "the equivalence of
gravitational field and an accellerating frame". This simply doesn't
follow. As you should be able to see, by describing initially the
potential of the observer on the spinning disk as "gravitational", the
conclusion after that it was a gravitaional potential is a classical
example of circular reasoning, or "assuming the consequent". So you
see dear Sergey, I have not contradicted myself on this subject. The
fact that an object in freefall in the Earth's gravitational field can
be described as having an "inertial potential", relates only to the
fact that it is a mass. The force could easily be electromagnetic and
we would have the same result.
You might also take into consideration that with the equation I
provided, I was able to derive the entire spectra of the hydrogen atom
in terms of the periods of the electron in its orbit. I believe you
mentioned something along the same line. Don't be so hasty to make
blind assumption--such is the very reason for the patchwork nature of
physical theory in its present state. =20
Richard Perry
.
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| User: "Sergey Karavashkin" |
|
| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
17 Sep 2006 10:29:24 PM |
|
|
RP =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
Dear Sergey,
Here I have provided a recipe for stability of classical atomic orbits
involving only electromagnetic influences, and you argue that I am
discussing a quantum model? Tsk.
As for the negative sign on the left with none on the right, perhaps
you were bit shortsighted--surely you relize that any variable
expressed as a letter can be either a negative or positive value. For
instance the equation
c =3D b-a
Now if a is larger than b, then c will be negative, and yet I suppose
because we have omitted the negative sign you find fallacy in this
standard algebraic convention. On the right hand side of the force
equation you should note that charge exists in the positive and the
negative forms, and that as you suggested, yes, if you change the sign
of either of these then the force will become positive, which is
perfecly in accord with the empirical data, is it not?
No problem, dear Richard. Rather, no problem with the differences, they
are squared in both parts. The problem is with products. If you take
two protons or two electrons, q q=E2=80=99 will be positive, and whole left
part will be negative. While in the right part m m=E2=80=99 will be strongly
positive. :) And even if your particles can have negative masses, the
product of two negative values gives plus. Maybe, your formulas are
applicable only to the oppositely charged particles? Then they are not
general, as necessary for the theory, are they?
As for my views concerning the principle of equivalence, I see no
reason for concern on your part. The PoE is nothing more than an idea,
an idea that has no counterpart in the mathematical formalism. It plays
the same role in the general theory of relativy that Aether played in
the Lorentz interpreation of his transform. It is redundant.
I wonder, why you argued Henry if you have same opinion with him? Or
something changed in Danish Kingdom? Well, the nature remained
unchanged, it does not obey to any conjecture. :)
In his simple derivation of gravitational time dilation, where Einstein
compared the ticking rates of clocks located at different postions on a
spinning disk, the result was that the ticking rate was related to an
inertial potential (counterpart to electrical potential), which
Einstein called at the start of the derivation a gravitational
potential. Now whether the force be centripetal or gravitational, there
exists an inertial potential, and thus the ticking rate must be altered
in either of these fields. From this mathematical observation one
cannot derive the PoE, as it was stated "the equivalence of
gravitational field and an accellerating frame". This simply doesn't
follow. As you should be able to see, by describing initially the
potential of the observer on the spinning disk as "gravitational", the
conclusion after that it was a gravitaional potential is a classical
example of circular reasoning, or "assuming the consequent". So you
see dear Sergey, I have not contradicted myself on this subject. The
fact that an object in freefall in the Earth's gravitational field can
be described as having an "inertial potential", relates only to the
fact that it is a mass. The force could easily be electromagnetic and
we would have the same result.
Not with any force you will yield such result; this is the first.
Second, the accelerated frame, especially rotating frame, causes
additional forces =E2=80=93 such as the Coriolis force. Wishing to introduce
the relation between the inertial and non-inertial frames, you would
have to introduce additionally too many things which Einstein did not
introduce when established his principle of equivalence. Third,
Einstein needed his equivalence principle to convert the light speed
postulate from the inertial to non-inertial frame and to have the
possibility to use SR when working out GR. But the Lorentz transforms
don=E2=80=99t work in non-inertial frames, you can easily make sure,
calculating. Well, they don=E2=80=99t work in inertial frames, too; I could
easily prove you it, should you want to hear, not to defend the dogma.
Thus, things are not so simple with equivalence as relativists would
like to show. A simple example with the close carriage of Einstein. He
assured that the acceleration of carriage is equivalent to the
imaginary gravity potential. Let us see. If the carriage accelerates by
locomotive, the passenger will be pressed into the chair, yes? But if
the carriage is freely falling in some gravity field, the passenger
will feel weightlessness. Such is =E2=80=98the equivalence=E2=80=99.
You might also take into consideration that with the equation I
provided, I was able to derive the entire spectra of the hydrogen atom
in terms of the periods of the electron in its orbit. I believe you
mentioned something along the same line. Don't be so hasty to make
blind assumption--such is the very reason for the patchwork nature of
physical theory in its present state.
Richard Perry
Dear Richard, I showed you two errors, but they are far from being all.
It was Bohr who has derived, and quite accurately, the orbitals and
their correspondence to the emission spectrum of hydrogen. His solution
in frames of energetic approach is true for every known spectra. No
problem to adjust, these are already matters of QM. First lift the
discrepancies of your conception, in that number related to the
equalised electric and gravity forces. And again, where in this
expression is the gravity constant? :)
Sergey
.
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| User: "Sue..." |
|
| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
18 Sep 2006 05:49:05 AM |
|
|
Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
<< First lift the
discrepancies of your conception, in that number related to the
equalised electric and gravity forces. And again, where in this
expression is the gravity constant? :) >>
Sergey
Sergey,
I agree with you that this Coulomb / gravity equivalence cannot
be as Einstein tried to construct it...
However, there is a plausible toy model that retains some of
of the Lorenz components to explain the reaction force
which causes a rifle to recoil.
http://www.citebase.org/cgi-bin/citations?id=oai:arXiv.org:physics/0107015
http://www.mypage.bluewin.ch/Bizarre/GRAV.htm
The toy model is not very 'polished' but has some features very
consistant with a recent GR experiment:
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html
and also is consistant with some recent coherent matter
experiments and a commercially availible gyrocompass:
http://www.ixsea.com/downloads/techno/0001-Octans_highly_compact.pdf#search=%22Octans_highly_compact%22
I wouldn't suggest RP should throw the baby out
with the bath water ;-)
Sue...
.
|
|
|
| User: "Sergey Karavashkin" |
|
| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
18 Sep 2006 08:46:10 AM |
|
|
Sue... =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
<< First lift the
discrepancies of your conception, in that number related to the
equalised electric and gravity forces. And again, where in this
expression is the gravity constant? :) >>
Sergey
Sergey,
I agree with you that this Coulomb / gravity equivalence cannot
be as Einstein tried to construct it...
However, there is a plausible toy model that retains some of
of the Lorenz components to explain the reaction force
which causes a rifle to recoil.
http://www.citebase.org/cgi-bin/citations?id=3Doai:arXiv.org:physics/0107=
015
http://www.mypage.bluewin.ch/Bizarre/GRAV.htm
The toy model is not very 'polished' but has some features very
consistant with a recent GR experiment:
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html
and also is consistant with some recent coherent matter
experiments and a commercially availible gyrocompass:
http://www.ixsea.com/downloads/techno/0001-Octans_highly_compact.pdf#sear=
ch=3D%22Octans_highly_compact%22
I wouldn't suggest RP should throw the baby out
with the bath water ;-)
Sue...
People pant attempting, dear Sue. :) But until the funding
organisations recall the old good rule =E2=80=93 it is cheaper to fund the
authors than to seek some =E2=80=98kitchen=E2=80=99 copies, their money wil=
l sink
in sand. :) Thank you for references. I see once more that no one walks
in the trend of our knowledge and our know-hows are out of danger. This
author, Kouropoulos, has taken an artificial model, composed incorrect
formulas for oscillations, started seeking additional frequencies and
squeezing the artificial Lagrangian and Hamiltonian formulas, adjusting
them for Einsteinian gravity potential. Basically, he did not succeed.
Einsteinian formula is other, only the bracket is like, as here and
there are two summands and Phi in the numerator. This is same useless
as the experiment to which you refer, as if it corroborates the paper.
One nonsense =E2=80=98corroborated=E2=80=99 another one. About 10 years ago=
some
such =E2=80=98experimenter=E2=80=99 contacted me. He took two loops, calcul=
ated the
electro- and magneto-dynamic interaction between them, checked
experimentally and, basing on the fact that his calculation disagreed
with the experiment, claimed to the whole world that he produced
longitudinal EM waves. A boy! =E2=80=93 he and these to whom you are
referring. One more million has sank =E2=80=93 which time now...
Again, great thanks for these links, you presented me few minutes of
laughing.
Sergey
.
|
|
|
| User: "Sue..." |
|
| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
18 Sep 2006 09:58:06 AM |
|
|
Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
Sue... =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
<< First lift the
discrepancies of your conception, in that number related to the
equalised electric and gravity forces. And again, where in this
expression is the gravity constant? :) >>
Sergey
Sergey,
I agree with you that this Coulomb / gravity equivalence cannot
be as Einstein tried to construct it...
However, there is a plausible toy model that retains some of
of the Lorenz components to explain the reaction force
which causes a rifle to recoil.
http://www.citebase.org/cgi-bin/citations?id=3Doai:arXiv.org:physics/01=
07015
http://www.mypage.bluewin.ch/Bizarre/GRAV.htm
The toy model is not very 'polished' but has some features very
consistant with a recent GR experiment:
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html
and also is consistant with some recent coherent matter
experiments and a commercially availible gyrocompass:
http://www.ixsea.com/downloads/techno/0001-Octans_highly_compact.pdf#se=
arch=3D%22Octans_highly_compact%22
I wouldn't suggest RP should throw the baby out
with the bath water ;-)
Sue...
People pant attempting, dear Sue. :) But until the funding
organisations recall the old good rule =E2=80=93 it is cheaper to fund the
authors than to seek some =E2=80=98kitchen=E2=80=99 copies, their money w=
ill sink
in sand. :) Thank you for references. I see once more that no one walks
in the trend of our knowledge and our know-hows are out of danger. This
author, Kouropoulos, has taken an artificial model, composed incorrect
formulas for oscillations, started seeking additional frequencies and
squeezing the artificial Lagrangian and Hamiltonian formulas, adjusting
them for Einsteinian gravity potential. Basically, he did not succeed.
Thank you for your opinion on that. Something about the way the
domains are sized and his references to frequency instead of
phase I found troubling as well. I lack the mathmatics to view it
as you did but we find fault in the same general area. I suspect
he has made a poor choice of oscillator for what he is trying to model
and as I like to say "beating it to fit and painting it to match".
Still it serves a reminder of mechanisms that can't be ignored
in more formal approaches.
Einsteinian formula is other, only the bracket is like, as here and
there are two summands and Phi in the numerator. This is same useless
as the experiment to which you refer, as if it corroborates the paper.
One nonsense =E2=80=98corroborated=E2=80=99 another one. About 10 years a=
go some
such =E2=80=98experimenter=E2=80=99 contacted me. He took two loops, calc=
ulated the
electro- and magneto-dynamic interaction between them, checked
experimentally and, basing on the fact that his calculation disagreed
with the experiment, claimed to the whole world that he produced
longitudinal EM waves. A boy! =E2=80=93 he and these to whom you are
referring. One more million has sank =E2=80=93 which time now...
Again, great thanks for these links, you presented me few minutes of
laughing.
Ah! You've never seen may best comedy material. I avoid putting
anything in my own math expressions to spare readers from splitting
their sides apart laughing at it. :o)
Sue...
=20
Sergey
.
|
|
|
| User: "Sergey Karavashkin" |
|
| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
19 Sep 2006 01:02:54 AM |
|
|
Sue... =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Thank you for your opinion on that. Something about the way the
domains are sized and his references to frequency instead of
phase I found troubling as well. I lack the mathmatics to view it
as you did but we find fault in the same general area. I suspect
he has made a poor choice of oscillator for what he is trying to model
and as I like to say "beating it to fit and painting it to match".
Still it serves a reminder of mechanisms that can't be ignored
in more formal approaches.
You are absolutely right, dear Sue, it is not worthy to ignore the
processes of interaction. You can read however many our papers and see,
this is just our work =E2=80=93 to account the trifles omitted by those who
are in hurry. And the matter is not, or is not so much, in these
trifles as in the unbiased modelling. One who tries in his modelling to
adhere to some formula of authors of modern physics, be they Einstein,
Fermi, Landau or someone else, at a definite step must cheat. This is
seen, and you have seen it in the work of Kouropoulos, and I saw. I
looked through further, too, but already laughed seeing how he passes
from modelling to manipulation with formulas, and immediately passes to
the generalised coordinates, then to Hamiltonian, separating the path
of his solution from the special points of his model, to untie the
hands for these manipulations. This is a beloved trick which apply all
heralds of theories of everything, beginning from the authorities of
Relativity and QM. I can say more: these conceptions are based on this
trick. So they lay special stress not on regularities, not on
scrupulous modelling but on postulating and solving the problems in
distracted spaces. While those who really wants to model never finish
with the radius of the universe starting with modelling of two
oscillators. :) Believe me, if you don=E2=80=99t apply such trick in your
models but thoroughly model and determine the limits of your model and
if you do not exceed these limits, mathematics will never let you down.
These heralds and dogmatic relativistic dilettantes will be angry with
you, but your models will work. And if the solutions of authorities
were correct, then, when meeting your solutions, they have to satisfy
your solutions, not vice versa. :) Don=E2=80=99t afraid the authorities. Th=
ey
are same people with their mistakes which they often had to do, being
afraid to lose their authority. Just so it was with Einstein. When I
read his letters, I pitied him much: he understood the whole precipice
over which his conception hanged and inevitably had to break down. He
understood more than we even can imagine, but he was the hostage of the
stakes to which he dared when was young.
Sergey
.
|
|
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| User: "Sue..." |
|
| Title: Re: Wave-particle duality |
19 Sep 2006 05:58:42 AM |
|
|
Sergey Karavashkin wrote:
Sue... =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(=D0=B0):
Thank you for your opinion on that. Something about the way the
domains are sized and his references to frequency instead of
phase I found troubling as well. I lack the mathmatics to view it
as you did but we find fault in the same general area. I suspect
he has made a poor choice of oscillator for what he is trying to model
and as I like to say "beating it to fit and painting it to match".
Still it serves a reminder of mechanisms that can't be ignored
in more formal approaches.
You are absolutely right, dear Sue, it is not worthy to ignore the
processes of interaction. You can read however many our papers and see,
this is just our work =E2=80=93 to account the trifles omitted by those w=
ho
are in hurry. And the matter is not, or is not so much, in these
trifles as in the unbiased modelling. One who tries in his modelling to
adhere to some formula of authors of modern physics, be they Einstein,
Fermi, Landau or someone else, at a definite step must cheat. This is
seen, and you have seen it in the work of Kouropoulos, and I saw. I
looked through further, too, but already laughed seeing how he passes
from modelling to manipulation with formulas, and immediately passes to
the generalised coordinates, then to Hamiltonian, separating the path
of his solution from the special points of his model, to untie the
hands for these manipul | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |