Science > Physics > What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen?
| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Sea Squid" |
| Date: |
21 Feb 2005 08:38:18 PM |
| Object: |
What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
Assume if somebody invents a magic catalyst which help reduce the cost of
breaking down water
into H2 and O2 by 50%. Where are the currently tappable destination for
these two gases? How
does the hydrogen plant seperate the two gases?
Thanks.
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| User: "CWatters" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 03:12:15 AM |
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"Sea Squid" <Sea.Squid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:421a99cc$1@news.starhub.net.sg...
Assume if somebody invents a magic catalyst which help reduce the cost of
breaking down water
into H2 and O2 by 50%.
There was an interesting article in one of the science mags last year. It
discussed what we should use Hydrogen for _first_ if it suddenly became
cheap and easily available. I recall they said we should use it to for heat
and power in our houses NOT in our cars. I think they reached this
conclusion after looking at the total impact each source of energy has on
the environment after all factors are considered.
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| User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
21 Feb 2005 10:53:45 PM |
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"Sea Squid" <Sea.Squid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:421a99cc$1@news.starhub.net.sg...
Assume if somebody invents a magic catalyst which help reduce the cost
of
breaking down water
into H2 and O2 by 50%. Where are the currently tappable destination
for
these two gases? How
does the hydrogen plant seperate the two gases?
Thanks.
Electrolysis will separate the elements from the molecule.
By placing electrodes in the water, gas bubbles form at the
electrodes and will rise to the surface, where they can be collected.
The catalyst is sodium chloride (common table salt).
It will not reduce the cost, the energy out is equal to the energy in.
Androcles.
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| User: "Rich Grise" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 01:57:57 AM |
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 04:53:45 +0000, Androcles wrote:
"Sea Squid" <Sea.Squid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:421a99cc$1@news.starhub.net.sg...
Assume if somebody invents a magic catalyst which help reduce the cost
of
breaking down water
into H2 and O2 by 50%. Where are the currently tappable destination
for
these two gases? How
does the hydrogen plant seperate the two gases?
Thanks.
Electrolysis will separate the elements from the molecule.
By placing electrodes in the water, gas bubbles form at the
electrodes and will rise to the surface, where they can be collected.
The catalyst is sodium chloride (common table salt).
It will not reduce the cost, the energy out is equal to the energy in.
Androcles.
Sodium Chloride is _not_ a catalyst in this case. Electrolysis isn't
influenced by any catalysts at all[0]. What the salt does is provide free
electrons, making the solution conductive. This is a very poor choice of
electrolyte for routine electrolysis, because the sodium and the chlorine
come out of solution at the electrodes, and create a terrible mess.
Use H2SO4 if you need to make your water conductive. (one drop of
battery acid will make 55 gallons of water conductive enough to
electrolyze.)
And, unless you really have figured out how to do real magic, you will
_never, ever, ever_ get as much energy back as you put in.
Cheers!
Rich
[0] at first, I thought, "But, Platinum! That's a catalyst for hydrogen
and oxygen!" - but, catalysts work both ways, now, don't they? ;-)
So, use platinum plates.
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| User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 03:54:00 AM |
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"Rich Grise" <richgrise@example.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.02.22.07.57.58.725178@example.net...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 04:53:45 +0000, Androcles wrote:
"Sea Squid" <Sea.Squid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:421a99cc$1@news.starhub.net.sg...
Assume if somebody invents a magic catalyst which help reduce the
cost
of
breaking down water
into H2 and O2 by 50%. Where are the currently tappable destination
for
these two gases? How
does the hydrogen plant seperate the two gases?
Thanks.
Electrolysis will separate the elements from the molecule.
By placing electrodes in the water, gas bubbles form at the
electrodes and will rise to the surface, where they can be collected.
The catalyst is sodium chloride (common table salt).
It will not reduce the cost, the energy out is equal to the energy
in.
Androcles.
Sodium Chloride is _not_ a catalyst in this case. Electrolysis isn't
influenced by any catalysts at all[0]. What the salt does is provide
free
electrons, making the solution conductive.
So it is a catalyst.
This is a very poor choice of
electrolyte for routine electrolysis, because the sodium and the
chlorine
come out of solution at the electrodes, and create a terrible mess.
Use H2SO4 if you need to make your water conductive. (one drop of
battery acid will make 55 gallons of water conductive enough to
electrolyze.)
A better catalyst.
And, unless you really have figured out how to do real magic, you will
_never, ever, ever_ get as much energy back as you put in.
Too true, but "Sea Squid" wanted "a magic catalyst" which helps "reduce
the cost" of breaking down water into H2 and O2 by 50%, which betrays a
teenage underlying lack of knowledge of economics, chemistry and
physics, so it seemed appropriate that he could conduct a safe
experiment in his mother's kitchen using some AA cells without spilling
battery acid
on the floor or work surfaces, and his question was how to collect the
gas. I gave him the same answer I'd give to my own grandson.
Cheers!
Rich
[0] at first, I thought, "But, Platinum! That's a catalyst for
hydrogen
and oxygen!" - but, catalysts work both ways, now, don't they? ;-)
So, use platinum plates.
Have a nice day, Rich. It's his mother that will be coming after YOU
when her wedding band is sawn in two and the place stinks from a
mix of H2SO4 and oven cleaner instead of some spilled salty water.
Androcles.
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
21 Feb 2005 08:44:52 PM |
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Dear Sea Squid:
"Sea Squid" <Sea.Squid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:421a99cc$1@news.starhub.net.sg...
Assume if somebody invents a magic catalyst which help reduce the cost of
breaking down water
into H2 and O2 by 50%. Where are the currently tappable destination for
these two gases?
Oxygen is used in hospitals, chemical processes, and spacecraft.
Hydrogen is used in chemical process, spacecraft, and horribly expensive
alternative fuel vehicles.
How
does the hydrogen plant seperate the two gases?
They strip hydrogen from hydrocarbons. A whole lot cheaper than breaking
down water.
URL:http://www.hydrogen.org.au/natural-gas-hydrogen.htm
URL:http://www.princeton.edu/~chm333/2004/Hydrogen/h2_atmosphere.htm
There is research and a number of patents into other methods: bacteria, and
catalytically-based methods.
David A. Smith
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| User: "Franz Heymann" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 08:55:06 AM |
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"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
message news:i0xSd.78221$Yu.15786@fed1read01...
Dear Sea Squid:
"Sea Squid" <Sea.Squid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:421a99cc$1@news.starhub.net.sg...
Assume if somebody invents a magic catalyst which help reduce the
cost of
breaking down water
into H2 and O2 by 50%. Where are the currently tappable
destination for
these two gases?
Oxygen is used in hospitals, chemical processes, and spacecraft.
Hydrogen is used in chemical process, spacecraft, and horribly
expensive
alternative fuel vehicles.
How
does the hydrogen plant seperate the two gases?
They strip hydrogen from hydrocarbons. A whole lot cheaper than
breaking
down water.
URL:http://www.hydrogen.org.au/natural-gas-hydrogen.htm
URL:http://www.princeton.edu/~chm333/2004/Hydrogen/h2_atmosphere.htm
There is research and a number of patents into other methods:
bacteria, and
catalytically-based methods.
There is also a gang in Canada who claim to be working on a method of
dissociating water using solar energy to drive a catalytic process,
but we have not heard much from them for a while.
--
Franz
"The great tragedy of science -- the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis
by an ugly fact."
T.H. Huxley
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 10:01:52 AM |
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Dear Franz Heymann:
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:cvfh49$ll6$9@hercules.btinternet.com...
....
There is research and a number of patents into
other methods: bacteria, and catalytically-based methods.
There is also a gang in Canada who claim to be working
on a method of dissociating water using solar energy to
drive a catalytic process, but we have not heard much
from them for a while.
But it's winter! They may not have seen the sun in a while... ;>)
David A. Smith
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| User: "Franz Heymann" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 04:10:43 PM |
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"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
message news:vHISd.80694$Yu.27878@fed1read01...
Dear Franz Heymann:
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:cvfh49$ll6$9@hercules.btinternet.com...
...
There is research and a number of patents into
other methods: bacteria, and catalytically-based methods.
There is also a gang in Canada who claim to be working
on a method of dissociating water using solar energy to
drive a catalytic process, but we have not heard much
from them for a while.
But it's winter! They may not have seen the sun in a while... ;>)
Ahh, I forgot.
ROFLOL
--
Franz
"The great tragedy of science -- the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis
by an ugly fact."
T.H. Huxley
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| User: "Puppet_Sock" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 10:11:19 AM |
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear Franz Heymann:
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:cvfh49$ll6$9@hercules.btinternet.com...
...
There is research and a number of patents into
other methods: bacteria, and catalytically-based methods.
There is also a gang in Canada who claim to be working
on a method of dissociating water using solar energy to
drive a catalytic process, but we have not heard much
from them for a while.
But it's winter! They may not have seen the sun in a while... ;>)
And when we do see it, it's rarely more than about 30 degrees
above the horizon.
Catalytic process be damned. The problem with dissociating
water to get H2 and O2 is simply the energy you have to put
into the stupid thing. If we had the energy available to make
scads of H2 out of water, we'd not have problems with energy.
Socks
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| User: "Franz Heymann" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 04:10:44 PM |
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"Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109088679.319620.244090@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear Franz Heymann:
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in
message
news:cvfh49$ll6$9@hercules.btinternet.com...
...
There is research and a number of patents into
other methods: bacteria, and catalytically-based methods.
There is also a gang in Canada who claim to be working
on a method of dissociating water using solar energy to
drive a catalytic process, but we have not heard much
from them for a while.
But it's winter! They may not have seen the sun in a while... ;>)
And when we do see it, it's rarely more than about 30 degrees
above the horizon.
Catalytic process be damned. The problem with dissociating
water to get H2 and O2 is simply the energy you have to put
into the stupid thing. If we had the energy available to make
scads of H2 out of water, we'd not have problems with energy.
I, too, have my doubts about the process, but have a look at this URL.
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/
Sorry it is so long. You will have to rewrite it manually
--
Franz
"The great tragedy of science -- the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis
by an ugly fact."
T.H. Huxley
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 04:28:18 PM |
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Dear Franz Heymann:
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:cvgal3$qn1$2@sparta.btinternet.com...
"Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109088679.319620.244090@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear Franz Heymann:
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in
message
news:cvfh49$ll6$9@hercules.btinternet.com...
...
There is research and a number of patents into
other methods: bacteria, and catalytically-based methods.
There is also a gang in Canada who claim to be working
on a method of dissociating water using solar energy to
drive a catalytic process, but we have not heard much
from them for a while.
But it's winter! They may not have seen the sun in a while... ;>)
And when we do see it, it's rarely more than about 30 degrees
above the horizon.
Catalytic process be damned. The problem with dissociating
water to get H2 and O2 is simply the energy you have to put
into the stupid thing. If we had the energy available to make
scads of H2 out of water, we'd not have problems with energy.
I, too, have my doubts about the process, but have a look at this URL.
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/
Sorry it is so long. You will have to rewrite it manually
This actually took/takes place here in Tempe Arridzona. But we have still
had phenomenal amounts of cloud cover and rain.
The link worked. For long links, I have had good success adding the
following:
<
URL:
....the link...
all together, and not on separate lines (I did this so that Outlook didn't
munge it all). This seems to make Outlook behave a little more friendly
towards long links:
URL:http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/
It occurs at elevated temperature, and they "trap" the oxygen. Not quite a
plasma, but even at room temperature water dissociates just the tiniest bit
(pH). I'll just be sad to see all the hydrogen spills being cleaned up...
sky mops are hard to handle. ;>)
David A. Smith
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| User: "Franz Heymann" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
23 Feb 2005 03:31:15 AM |
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"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
message news:MlOSd.80747$Yu.1354@fed1read01...
[snip]
The link worked. For long links, I have had good success adding the
following:
<
URL:
...the link...
all together, and not on separate lines (I did this so that Outlook
didn't
munge it all). This seems to make Outlook behave a little more
friendly
towards long links:
URL:http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hyd
rogen/
Thanks for the hint on long links.
I.m surprised that mine did not do a wrap.
--
Franz
"The great tragedy of science -- the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis
by an ugly fact."
T.H. Huxley
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen andoxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 05:00:54 PM |
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Franz Heymann wrote:
"Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109088679.319620.244090@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear Franz Heymann:
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in
message
news:cvfh49$ll6$9@hercules.btinternet.com...
...
There is research and a number of patents into
other methods: bacteria, and catalytically-based methods.
There is also a gang in Canada who claim to be working
on a method of dissociating water using solar energy to
drive a catalytic process, but we have not heard much
from them for a while.
But it's winter! They may not have seen the sun in a while... ;>)
And when we do see it, it's rarely more than about 30 degrees
above the horizon.
Catalytic process be damned. The problem with dissociating
water to get H2 and O2 is simply the energy you have to put
into the stupid thing. If we had the energy available to make
scads of H2 out of water, we'd not have problems with energy.
I, too, have my doubts about the process, but have a look at this URL.
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/
Sorry it is so long. You will have to rewrite it manually
Put long links within angle brackets,
<http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/>
I work on solar energy projects for Occidental Petroleum Corporation.
Even the scientifically brilliant implimentations of Fat Freddy in the
adjacent lab plus my immodest contributions added to technological
beans at scale.
1) It must work.
2) It must generate a profit as it works.
3) It must work generating a profit for 20 years.
4) Ain't no such, even on paper.
BTW, building your physical plant in a nice flat arroyo seco is an
empirically bad idea when the vagaries of weather deliver an arroyo
mojado. California is enjoying the wettest year since 1883-4, thereby
confirming the devastating heat and desiccation brought forth by the
Greenhouse Effect and Global Warming. It's bloody cold, too. It will
be great year for wildflowers and blooming cactus in the deserts.
We're hoping everything in the dry land ecology drowns, opening the
areas for development.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "tadchem" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 08:14:48 PM |
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"Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:421BB9A6.3FB67483@hate.spam.net...
<snip>
Put long links within angle brackets,
<http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/>
Nice trick, Al. I'll remember that.
BTW, building your physical plant in a nice flat arroyo seco is an
empirically bad idea when the vagaries of weather deliver an arroyo
mojado.
Sometimes an arroyo can flood in an instant from a storm so far away you
can't even see it!
California is enjoying the wettest year since 1883-4, thereby
confirming the devastating heat and desiccation brought forth by the
Greenhouse Effect and Global Warming. It's bloody cold, too. It will
be great year for wildflowers and blooming cactus in the deserts.
We're hoping everything in the dry land ecology drowns, opening the
areas for development.
I have just been speaking with my sister in the Sonora Desert of Arizona.
The consensus is that there should be an interesting fire season this year,
as well.
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 10:15:03 AM |
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Dear Puppet_Sock:
"Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109088679.319620.244090@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear Franz Heymann:
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:cvfh49$ll6$9@hercules.btinternet.com...
...
There is research and a number of patents into
other methods: bacteria, and catalytically-based methods.
There is also a gang in Canada who claim to be working
on a method of dissociating water using solar energy to
drive a catalytic process, but we have not heard much
from them for a while.
But it's winter! They may not have seen the sun in a while... ;>)
And when we do see it, it's rarely more than about 30 degrees
above the horizon.
Catalytic process be damned. The problem with dissociating
water to get H2 and O2 is simply the energy you have to put
into the stupid thing. If we had the energy available to make
scads of H2 out of water, we'd not have problems with energy.
Agreed. If it were 100% efficient, or even 60+% efficient, wouldn't it
still be a preferable method of storing energy? Batteries are not terribly
efficient, and capacitors have similar issues (either very large, or just
batteries in disguise).
David A. Smith
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: What are the industrial application of mass produced hydrogen and oxygen? |
22 Feb 2005 11:11:37 AM |
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Sea Squid wrote:
Assume if somebody invents a magic catalyst which help reduce the
cost of
breaking down water
into H2 and O2 by 50%. Where are the currently tappable destination
for
these two gases?
The big news draw if we had a ready source of hydrogen would be fuel
cell cars.
http://4hydrogen.com/index.html
How
does the hydrogen plant seperate the two gases?
Thanks.
By supplying energy to dissociate water. Actually, the best technology
for electrolysis turns out to be nuclear power plants. Europe has a
much higher fraction of energy supplied by nuclear power than does the
US, and China is on a path to quickly surpass the US in capacity, as
well. Despite Chernobyl and 3-Mile Island, nuclear power plants are
beginning to re-emerge in power planning in the US.
A catalyst that reduced the energy threshold by 50% AND could produce
in quantity AND did not cost more than the energy cost saved, would be
a boon worth tens of billions of dollars.
PD
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