Science > Physics > When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder?
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Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Jim" |
| Date: |
23 Sep 2005 11:12:09 PM |
| Object: |
When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
2) If we take a magnet that's suspended in air by a string, and allow it
to do work by pulling a piece of steel up from the ground, the steel now
has potential energy it didn't have before.
That means the magnet has less energy than it had before. Where did the
energy come from? Do the orbiting electrons slow down? Does the magnet
get cooler?
1) Does anyone know the title and author for the Physics 107 course at the
University of Illinois in 1976? I want to buy that book...
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
23 Sep 2005 11:42:56 PM |
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"Jim" <jim9689@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96DAD7B056899jim9689yahoocom@207.217.125.201...
2) If we take a magnet that's suspended in air by a string, and allow it
to do work by pulling a piece of steel up from the ground, the steel now
has potential energy it didn't have before.
It has gravitational potential that it didn't have before,
but it has lost magnetic potential.
Don't forget the potential gradient of the "magnetic field".
That means the magnet has less energy than it had before. Where did the
energy come from? Do the orbiting electrons slow down? Does the magnet
get cooler?
1) Does anyone know the title and author for the Physics 107 course at
the
University of Illinois in 1976? I want to buy that book...
Sorry, no.
Sears and Zemansky was my favorite undergrad physics book.
--
rb
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| User: "Jim" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
24 Sep 2005 12:55:14 AM |
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1) Does anyone know the title and author for the Physics 107 course
at the
University of Illinois in 1976? I want to buy that book...
Sorry, no.
Sears and Zemansky was my favorite undergrad physics book.
--
rb
Thanks very much for the feedback on my magnet question.
Well now, I have Sears and Zemansky, 4th edition, looks like it cost me
$12.70 used from the Illini Union Bookstore. I wonder if that's the
Physics 107 (electricity and magnetism) text.
I cannot remember. If it is, then where's my Physics 106 text? Or did we
use one text for both classes?
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| User: "Mark Martin" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
23 Sep 2005 11:32:37 PM |
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Jim wrote:
2) If we take a magnet that's suspended in air by a string, and allow it
to do work by pulling a piece of steel up from the ground, the steel now
has potential energy it didn't have before.
That means the magnet has less energy than it had before. Where did the
energy come from? Do the orbiting electrons slow down? Does the magnet
get cooler?
The mass of steel has aquired gravitational potential energy by
increasing its altitude above the ground- but has *lost*
electromagnetic potential energy by decreasing its radius from the
magnet. The two ought to cancel out.
1) Does anyone know the title and author for the Physics 107 course at the
University of Illinois in 1976? I want to buy that book...
Sorry, no clue here.
-Mark Martin
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 09:11:55 PM |
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Jim wrote:
2) If we take a magnet that's suspended in air by a string, and allow it
to do work by pulling a piece of steel up from the ground, the steel now
has potential energy it didn't have before.
That means the magnet has less energy than it had before. Where did the
energy come from? Do the orbiting electrons slow down? Does the magnet
get cooler?
There is energy stored in the magnetic field, which is
configuration-dependent. When the metal is attracted, the energy in the
field (mostly outside the magnet) lowers. Nothing has to happen in the
magnet itself for this to happen.
PD
1) Does anyone know the title and author for the Physics 107 course at the
University of Illinois in 1976? I want to buy that book...
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 01:11:21 AM |
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Rather than trying to explain away the energy by saying that energy has
changed from potential magnetic to potential gravity energy, it is my
opinion that work is being done in the situation that you describe and
energy is required. Even after the steel has been pulled up onto the
magnet, what is the energy that is constantly working against the
gravitational field? It is as if a small rocket is attached to the
bottom of the steel and is firing to keep the steel in position. The
steel is not physically hung on the magnet - so what keeps it up?
My own theories indicate that the magnetic force is fundamentally an
electrostatic force. I'm still pretty sketchy about how this actually
works, but the basic idea is that space is made up of aether particles
which have magnetic moments. When all of the magnetic moments are
aligned, we see magnetic lines of force. The magnetic moments are
caused by a slight electrostatic dipole created by a slight charge
displacement within the aether particle which is fundamentally made up
of a proton and electron.
It is the alignment of the aether which effectively creates an
attraction. You can think of the aether particles as little magnets
with positive and negatively charged poles.. If they are all aligned,
they expose a large positive and negative field in opposite directions.
If we bring that next to something which is also magnetic, the positive
attract the negative, and we get an attraction. This attraction is
similar to normal electrostatic attraction, but instead of the atoms
doing the attracting, it is actually the aether particles themselves
which are doing the attraction. As I said, this is more than a little
sketchy at this point.
So if the attraction of the iron to the magnet can be thought of as
just an electrostatic attraction, then this still begs the question of
how electrostatic attraction can work. My own theories indicate that
the electrostatic attraction is caused by an extremely high frequency
electromagnetic wave which is emitted out of phase between protons and
electrons. It has been shown that objects emitting a similar frequency,
but out of phase will attract, and in phase will repel in accordance to
1/r^2.
So in my model, protons and electrons are like little bells which are
ringing at the same frequency, but out of phase. It is the interaction
of the phases that causes the attraction. So the question remains,
where do the protons and electrons get the energy needed to ring their
little bells so that they can create these high frequency EM waves.
The answer is that they get their energy from the ambient thermal
energy. As they bump into each other, they literally act like bells and
like bells, no matter how hard or how randomly they are struck, they
always ring with their characteristic frequency.
So the ultimate answer to your question of where the magnet gets the
energy to do work on the iron is that it gets the energy from the
ambient thermal energy surrounding the magnet. What it is doing is
converting random thermal energy into a very specifc energy which can
create an attractive force. It does so all the time, so I don't think
you'd observe a drop in temperature at the point that the magnet moves.
There is an overall constant draw of thermal energy, so if you were to
remove all external sources of thermal energy from a lump of matter, it
would eventually re-radiate all of it as the high frequency EM wave.
This, of course, is a totally radical idea that would be immediately
rejected by anyone in mainsteam science. But it does have
experimentally proveable predictions. Perhaps one of the most
interesting would be that if you could cool matter to absolute zero, it
would lose its charge field and the identity of protons and electrons
would effectively dissappear. It might also predict that if you took a
permanent magnet and cooled it to absolute zero, that it would loose
it's magnetic field. We can experimentally reach these temperatures and
we have observed some things in this bose-einstein condensate which
might seem compatible with this theory, such as matter forming super
atoms. We can also reach these temperatures with supercooled superfluid
helium - which also behaves in a bizzare fashion by being able to crawl
up containers. My model also indicates that gravity is an electrostatic
force as well and so it may predict that an object may loose it's
gravitational attraction at absolute zero as well.
The model I have discussed is part of my "Theory of Everything". To see
how magnetisim fits into the grand scheme. See it at:
http://www.geocities.com/franklinhu/theory.html
fhumag
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 03:04:09 AM |
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loose it's -> lose its
bizzare -> bizarre
Wrong, retard, look up ZPE. The temperature applies to atoms and
molecules, not to subatomics with their own temperatures. Thermal
energy is independent of potential energy. Go away.
-Aut
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
25 Sep 2005 10:53:42 PM |
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The steel and magnet heat up, duh, because they get /less/ potential
energy and more cinetic energy.
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| User: "Quantum Mirror" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 01:29:29 AM |
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Autymn D. C. wrote:
The steel and magnet heat up, duh, because they get /less/ potential
energy and more cinetic energy.
cinetic -> kinetic
Where does the heat come from?
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| User: "Happy Hippy" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 01:51:49 AM |
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Quantum Mirror wrote:
Autymn D. C. wrote:
The steel and magnet heat up, duh, because they get /less/ potential
energy and more cinetic energy.
cinetic -> kinetic
Where does the heat come from?
I liked playing with magnets.
Maybe mine were too small to heat up,
but they stayed perfectly cool.
But they sure can hold something against the
pull of gravity indefinitely.
Where does the kinetic come from?
John
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| User: "NunYa Bidness" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 04:13:32 AM |
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On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:51:49 -0600, Happy Hippy <J0HN@accesscomm.ca>
Gave us:
Quantum Mirror wrote:
Autymn D. C. wrote:
The steel and magnet heat up, duh, because they get /less/ potential
energy and more cinetic energy.
cinetic -> kinetic
Where does the heat come from?
I liked playing with magnets.
Maybe mine were too small to heat up,
but they stayed perfectly cool.
But they sure can hold something against the
pull of gravity indefinitely.
Where does the kinetic come from?
A material that is magnetized has all its orbits of the media that
makes it up aligned in one direction. This required energy to
perform, but in the right medium, it is retained well.
That is a lot of little energy sources all lined up. When a ferrous
or otherwise strongly magnetically influenced material comes into
proximity to the "magnet", it will be attracted. If it is right up
against the magnet, particularly when closing a magnetic field loop,
it remains very strongly "attached" locally to the magnet. That force
is capable of withstanding a lot of force.
The work was done, however, by the lifting device (crane), not by the
magnet. Once "attached" the steel or iron, etc. becomes
psuedo-integral to the magnet, up to a specific force level.
As one approaches the magnet with said steel piece, there is an energy
field moving about (through the air and steel piece), and when they
are separated as well. The "permeability" of the "steel piece" will
determine if any of that energy got used to transform the steel piece
into a magnet itself. The energy is provided by all those little atoms
being held in orbital spin alignment. Gazillions of electrons show
their mettle!
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| User: "Happy Hippy" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 10:19:30 AM |
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NunYa Bidness wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:51:49 -0600, Happy Hippy <J0HN@accesscomm.ca>
Gave us:
Quantum Mirror wrote:
Autymn D. C. wrote:
The steel and magnet heat up, duh, because they get /less/ potential
energy and more cinetic energy.
cinetic -> kinetic
Where does the heat come from?
I liked playing with magnets.
Maybe mine were too small to heat up,
but they stayed perfectly cool.
But they sure can hold something against the
pull of gravity indefinitely.
Where does the kinetic come from?
A material that is magnetized has all its orbits of the media that
makes it up aligned in one direction. This required energy to
perform, but in the right medium, it is retained well.
That is a lot of little energy sources all lined up. When a ferrous
or otherwise strongly magnetically influenced material comes into
proximity to the "magnet", it will be attracted. If it is right up
against the magnet, particularly when closing a magnetic field loop,
it remains very strongly "attached" locally to the magnet. That force
is capable of withstanding a lot of force.
The work was done, however, by the lifting device (crane), not by the
magnet. Once "attached" the steel or iron, etc. becomes
psuedo-integral to the magnet, up to a specific force level.
As one approaches the magnet with said steel piece, there is an energy
field moving about (through the air and steel piece), and when they
are separated as well. The "permeability" of the "steel piece" will
determine if any of that energy got used to transform the steel piece
into a magnet itself. The energy is provided by all those little atoms
being held in orbital spin alignment. Gazillions of electrons show
their mettle!
So orbitals can align themselves because they
have structure?
What is that structure?
John
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| User: "NunYa Bidness" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 01:22:40 PM |
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On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 09:19:30 -0600, Happy Hippy <J0HN@accesscomm.ca>
Gave us:
So orbitals can align themselves because they
have structure?
What is that structure?
John
The medium's external physical structure doesn't change. Steel is
still steel after magnetization and so is "AlNiCo".
What changes is what is taking place inside the atoms of each
affected molecule.
The bigger <sic> question would be "Why is our Solar System aligned
in a similar way?" Hehehe :-]
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| User: "Nomen Nescio" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 09:10:04 AM |
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On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 09:13:32 +0000, NunYa Bidness wrote:
That is a lot of little energy sources all lined up. When a ferrous
or otherwise strongly magnetically influenced material comes into
proximity to the "magnet", it will be attracted.
If you had two humongous magnets, or one humongus magnet and one humongous piece of iron, in the shape of disks, say 30 feet in diameter, and you brought them close enough so they were attracted to one another, but you stuck some wooden beams around the circumference so they could not come together in a big crunch, would the space between the two magnets be a useful laboratory?
What could you do with them besides stopping watches?
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 03:05:19 AM |
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Quantum Mirror wrote:
Autymn D. C. wrote:
The steel and magnet heat up, duh, because they get /less/ potential
energy and more cinetic energy.
cinetic -> kinetic
kinetic -> cinetic
Where does the heat come from?
The heat comes from the cinetic energy, duh.
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| User: "Richard Tobin" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 04:49:15 AM |
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In article <1127721919.264817.183400@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Autymn D. C. <lysdexia@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
kinetic -> cinetic
I'm sure there's a newsgroup for people who want to reform the English
language according to their own pet theory, but sci.physics isn't it.
-- Richard
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 05:04:27 AM |
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The magnet wiill be colder if, say, a cold front were to enter the
area.
- Don
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| User: "NunYa Bidness" |
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| Title: Re: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 01:09:02 PM |
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On 26 Sep 2005 03:04:27 -0700, Gave us:
The magnet wiill be colder if, say, a cold front were to enter the
area.
What a chilling thought!
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| User: "Stevie B" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 08:50:34 PM |
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I work on a magnet ranch in Montana where we raise thoroughbred
magnets. Out here we don't believe in letting our magnets stay outside
when the cold front comes through, we bring them into the barn where
it's warmer. They get less ornery that way, and as a result they are
less likely to try to reform the English language using their own pet
theories.
Now, mind you, not that many magnets around here actually have pets,
and not many of these pets actually have theories. But I once knew a
magnet who had a pet dog named Rufus. Rufus always barked when he
wanted attention. He started out by barking "Take me for a walk!", or
"Rub my belly!", or "Give me a doggy biscuit!". Then Rufus moved on to
barking "Stop misspelling its!", "Data is plural!", and "Translate from
the Latin you ignorant retard!". Well, the magnet didn't like this too
much, so he threw a flip-flop at Rufus and then Rufus ran away. Later
we heard that Rufus ended up in an dog orphanage in Wisconsin, where he
had to wake up early and eat Cheerios for breakfast every morning. No
more doggy biscuits for Rufus. I guess there's a lesson in there
somewhere.
NunYa Bidness wrote:
On 26 Sep 2005 03:04:27 -0700, Gave us:
The magnet wiill be colder if, say, a cold front were to enter the
area.
What a chilling thought!
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| User: "NunYa Bidness" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 04:18:02 AM |
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On 26 Sep 2005 01:05:19 -0700, "Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@sbcglobal.net>
Gave us:
Quantum Mirror wrote:
Autymn D. C. wrote:
The steel and magnet heat up, duh, because they get /less/ potential
energy and more cinetic energy.
cinetic -> kinetic
kinetic -> cinetic
Not a word.
Where does the heat come from?
The heat comes from the cinetic energy, duh.
It is KINETIC, dumbshit.
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 10:40:03 AM |
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NunYa Bidness wrote:
kinetic -> cinetic
Not a word.
Yes it is, retard.
It is KINETIC, dumbshit.
Why not kinetik then, robotic tool?
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| User: "NunYa Bidness" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
26 Sep 2005 01:27:28 PM |
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On 26 Sep 2005 08:40:03 -0700, "Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@sbcglobal.net>
Gave us:
NunYa Bidness wrote:
kinetic -> cinetic
Not a word.
Yes it is, retard.
It is KINETIC, dumbshit.
Why not kinetik then, robotic tool?
The reference was to "kinetic energy" dipshit.
There is only one word.
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
27 Sep 2005 10:34:41 AM |
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NunYa Bidness wrote:
The reference was to "kinetic energy" dipshit.
There is only one word.
which is wrong
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| User: "NunYa Bidness" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
27 Sep 2005 02:05:05 PM |
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On 27 Sep 2005 08:34:41 -0700, "Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@sbcglobal.net>
Gave us:
NunYa Bidness wrote:
The reference was to "kinetic energy" dipshit.
There is only one word.
which is wrong
You're then one that wrote it, asswipe. You referenced "cinetic
energy" which is 100% wrong.
Here's another word for you and your fabulous dictionary:
KINESIS
Once you do that, then see if you can find an entry that starts with
the letter "C".
You're an idiot.
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
16 Oct 2005 01:15:52 AM |
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NunYa Bidness wrote:
On 27 Sep 2005 08:34:41 -0700, "Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@sbcglobal.net>
Gave us:
NunYa Bidness wrote:
The reference was to "kinetic energy" dipshit.
There is only one word.
which is wrong
You're then one that wrote it, asswipe. You referenced "cinetic
energy" which is 100% wrong.
Here's another word for you and your fabulous dictionary:
KINESIS
Once you do that, then see if you can find an entry that starts with
the letter "C".
You're an idiot.
You're 100% wrong.
cinema
cinematic
cinematics
The Romans in the lead-poisoned Christian Era were idiots, and you
must've been descended from them.
-Aut
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| User: "platopes" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
16 Oct 2005 04:20:07 AM |
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Autymn D. C. wrote:
The Romans in the lead-poisoned Christian Era were idiots, and you
must've been descended from them.
-Aut
The Romans in the lead-poisoned Christian Era were idiots => The
lead-poisoned idiots in the Christian Era were Romans
and you must've been descended from them => and must you be descended
from them?
p
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: When magnets do work by lifting things, do they get colder? |
16 Oct 2005 06:43:07 AM |
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Normal feminine charm and grace => Attila the Huness on steroids
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