Science > Physics > Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension?
| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"John Tapper" |
| Date: |
04 Nov 2003 05:07:09 PM |
| Object: |
Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
Just interested in the history of the word "spacetime" as becoming one
word.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=spacetime (these guys put a
hyphen)
space-time (spstm)
n. Physics
The four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial
coordinates in which any event or physical object is located.
For historical research, who changed the dimensions from 3 to 4?
Can I dare ask why?
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| User: "Alfred Einstead" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
04 Nov 2003 09:37:39 PM |
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(John Tapper) wrote:
The four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial
coordinates in which any event or physical object is located.
For historical research, who changed the dimensions from 3 to 4?
Can I dare ask why?
It was always 4. The premise is built into the structure of
human language, itself. The belief in reality ultimately being
spacetime, rather than space "moving in time" is the essence of
Vedantic philosophy and the essence of its remote offshoot (Zen,
e.g., the famous "flag isn't moving, the mind is" koan); the
essential point underlying Zeno's philosophy, and a foundation
underlying Diodorian and Aristotle's temporal logic formalisms,
a key aspect of St. Aquinas' world view (who also stated that
God's existence is fundamentally at the level of spacetime,
not *in* time), among other places. In a language like Japanese,
the notion of existence as being along a worldline in spacetime
is built right into its verbal morphology, with (for instance)
"being at", "coming" and "going" being represented by the same
word.
Newton's theory was also a theory of spacetime, regardless of
whether it was spelled out as such or not. In particular, the
structure underlying Newton's spacetime is an instance of
what's known today as a Fibre Bundle -- in this case an E(3)
bundle (each fibre being a 3-D Euclidean space), on a E(1)
base space (the time line).
In fact, the same method used to represent gravity geometrically
in Relativity as (primarily) a curvature in time, in spacetime;
applies equally in the Newtonian spacetime. There, the curvature
takes place entirely in the time direction, represented by how
adjacent E(3) fibres are sewn up together. The way fibres
are connected in a fibre bundle is given by its "connection".
In Newtonian space, a connection consists precisely of a
prescription at each point of an acceleration (i.e., gravity).
This tells how a line, that is laid out like an embroidery
across fibres -- which would otherwise be straight (in
accordance with Newton's first and second laws) would curve
over time (i.e. accelerate). The warping is in the warping
of the connections of the adjacent layers to one another.
In place of Einstein's field equations, which relates the
curvature of [space]time with something involving matter
distributions; in Newton's Physics, you'd have Poisson's
equations, which relates the acceleration field corresponding
to the connection to the matter distribution.
So, warped spacetime has nothing to do with Einstein either.
The same geometrical interpretation involving curvature in time
applies to Newton's spacetime too.
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| User: "Greg Neill" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
05 Nov 2003 06:18:36 PM |
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"Alfred Einstead" <whopkins@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:e58d56ae.0311041937.35b4f3a@posting.google.com...
In a language like Japanese,
the notion of existence as being along a worldline in spacetime
is built right into its verbal morphology, with (for instance)
"being at", "coming" and "going" being represented by the same
word.
This must explain why business meetings in Japan seem
to go on forever. :-)
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| User: "Paul R. Mays" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
04 Nov 2003 11:34:01 PM |
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"Alfred Einstead" <whopkins@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:e58d56ae.0311041937.35b4f3a@posting.google.com...
xixj_0@yahoo.com (John Tapper) wrote:
The four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial
coordinates in which any event or physical object is located.
For historical research, who changed the dimensions from 3 to 4?
Can I dare ask why?
It was always 4. The premise is built into the structure of
human language, itself. The belief in reality ultimately being
spacetime, rather than space "moving in time" is the essence of
Vedantic philosophy and the essence of its remote offshoot (Zen,
e.g., the famous "flag isn't moving, the mind is" koan); the
essential point underlying Zeno's philosophy, and a foundation
underlying Diodorian and Aristotle's temporal logic formalisms,
a key aspect of St. Aquinas' world view (who also stated that
God's existence is fundamentally at the level of spacetime,
not *in* time), among other places. In a language like Japanese,
the notion of existence as being along a worldline in spacetime
is built right into its verbal morphology, with (for instance)
"being at", "coming" and "going" being represented by the same
word.
Newton's theory was also a theory of spacetime, regardless of
whether it was spelled out as such or not. In particular, the
structure underlying Newton's spacetime is an instance of
what's known today as a Fibre Bundle -- in this case an E(3)
bundle (each fibre being a 3-D Euclidean space), on a E(1)
base space (the time line).
In fact, the same method used to represent gravity geometrically
in Relativity as (primarily) a curvature in time, in spacetime;
applies equally in the Newtonian spacetime. There, the curvature
takes place entirely in the time direction, represented by how
adjacent E(3) fibres are sewn up together. The way fibres
are connected in a fibre bundle is given by its "connection".
In Newtonian space, a connection consists precisely of a
prescription at each point of an acceleration (i.e., gravity).
This tells how a line, that is laid out like an embroidery
across fibres -- which would otherwise be straight (in
accordance with Newton's first and second laws) would curve
over time (i.e. accelerate). The warping is in the warping
of the connections of the adjacent layers to one another.
In place of Einstein's field equations, which relates the
curvature of [space]time with something involving matter
distributions; in Newton's Physics, you'd have Poisson's
equations, which relates the acceleration field corresponding
to the connection to the matter distribution.
So, warped spacetime has nothing to do with Einstein either.
The same geometrical interpretation involving curvature in time
applies to Newton's spacetime too.
What He Said.... and rather well also....
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
05 Nov 2003 09:13:39 AM |
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In article <e58d56ae.0311041937.35b4f3a@posting.google.com>,
Alfred Einstead <whopkins@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
xixj_0@yahoo.com (John Tapper) wrote:
The four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial
coordinates in which any event or physical object is located.
For historical research, who changed the dimensions from 3 to 4?
Can I dare ask why?
It was always 4. The premise is built into the structure of
human language, itself. The belief in reality ultimately being
spacetime, rather than space "moving in time" is the essence of
Vedantic philosophy and the essence of its remote offshoot (Zen,
e.g., the famous "flag isn't moving, the mind is" koan); the
essential point underlying Zeno's philosophy, and a foundation
underlying Diodorian and Aristotle's temporal logic formalisms,
a key aspect of St. Aquinas' world view (who also stated that
God's existence is fundamentally at the level of spacetime,
not *in* time), among other places. In a language like Japanese,
the notion of existence as being along a worldline in spacetime
is built right into its verbal morphology, with (for instance)
"being at", "coming" and "going" being represented by the same
word.
Newton's theory was also a theory of spacetime, regardless of
whether it was spelled out as such or not. In particular, the
structure underlying Newton's spacetime is an instance of
what's known today as a Fibre Bundle -- in this case an E(3)
bundle (each fibre being a 3-D Euclidean space), on a E(1)
base space (the time line).
Where did you get all of this? Especially the part about Newton and Fibre
Bundles. It sure wasn't in Goldstein!
Feel free to comment liberally on what I've shared with Imam Tashdid ul
Alam.
So, warped spacetime has nothing to do with Einstein either.
The same geometrical interpretation involving curvature in time
applies to Newton's spacetime too.
It's the local Lorentz invariance that gives general relativity its
special, non-Newtonian character?
--
"Let us learn to dream, gentlemen, then perhaps we shall find the
truth... But let us beware of publishing our dreams before they have been
put to the proof by the waking understanding." -- Friedrich August Kekulé
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
04 Nov 2003 09:02:58 PM |
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In article <c38f0627.0311041507.3a675427@posting.google.com>,
John Tapper <xixj_0@yahoo.com> wrote:
Just interested in the history of the word "spacetime" as becoming one
word.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=spacetime (these guys put a
hyphen)
space-time (spstm)
n. Physics
The four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial
coordinates in which any event or physical object is located.
For historical research, who changed the dimensions from 3 to 4?
I believe that would be Minkowski.
Can I dare ask why?
Because meaningful vector operations can be performed on four-vectors.
The magnitude of a position four-vector, for instance, makes sense,
A = (ct,x,y,z)
|A|^2 = c^2 t^2 - x^2 - y^2 - z^2
which is a statement of the metric of the space; it is the equivalent of
length and is the quantity that's preserved under a Lorentz
transformation. Galilean transformations preserve lengths which don't
include time.
But I think it's interesting that in some late 19th century studies of
rotating objects, a four-dimensional formalism was developed for
mathematical convenience, with no physical significance ascribed to it.
And even a Newtonian wave equation has the form of
d^2/d(x^u)^2 phi = 0
where c is a wave propagation speed, not necessarily that of light, or
invariant. And the plane wave that shows up in quantum mechanics,
psi ~ exp[i(px - Et)/hbar]
Looks a lot like a four-momentum dotted into a four-position. It's almost
like there's something about nature that wants a four-dimensional
description even if your kinematics don't support it.
--
"Let us learn to dream, gentlemen, then perhaps we shall find the
truth... But let us beware of publishing our dreams before they have been
put to the proof by the waking understanding." -- Friedrich August Kekulé
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| User: "Tom Potter" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
04 Nov 2003 11:10:16 PM |
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"Gregory L. Hansen" <glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:bo9p92$hc9$2@hood.uits.indiana.edu...
In article <c38f0627.0311041507.3a675427@posting.google.com>,
John Tapper <xixj_0@yahoo.com> wrote:
Just interested in the history of the word "spacetime" as becoming one
word.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=spacetime (these guys put a
hyphen)
space-time (spstm)
n. Physics
The four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial
coordinates in which any event or physical object is located.
For historical research, who changed the dimensions from 3 to 4?
I believe that would be Minkowski.
Can I dare ask why?
Because meaningful vector operations can be performed on four-vectors.
The magnitude of a position four-vector, for instance, makes sense,
A = (ct,x,y,z)
How about expressing time, space and mass
in the same units thusly?
A = (MG/c^3,ct,x,y,z)
space(X) = time interval(X) * C
mass(X) * G / C^3 = time intervals(x,y,z)^3 / time period(v,w)^2
Times v and w are periods and precessions respectively.
--
Tom Potter http://tompotter.us
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
05 Nov 2003 08:23:19 AM |
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In article <boa0p2$1bvdu3$1@ID-188019.news.uni-berlin.de>,
Tom Potter <tdp@hotsheet.com> wrote:
"Gregory L. Hansen" <glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:bo9p92$hc9$2@hood.uits.indiana.edu...
In article <c38f0627.0311041507.3a675427@posting.google.com>,
John Tapper <xixj_0@yahoo.com> wrote:
Just interested in the history of the word "spacetime" as becoming one
word.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=spacetime (these guys put a
hyphen)
space-time (spstm)
n. Physics
The four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial
coordinates in which any event or physical object is located.
For historical research, who changed the dimensions from 3 to 4?
I believe that would be Minkowski.
Can I dare ask why?
Because meaningful vector operations can be performed on four-vectors.
The magnitude of a position four-vector, for instance, makes sense,
A = (ct,x,y,z)
How about expressing time, space and mass
in the same units thusly?
A = (MG/c^3,ct,x,y,z)
space(X) = time interval(X) * C
mass(X) * G / C^3 = time intervals(x,y,z)^3 / time period(v,w)^2
Times v and w are periods and precessions respectively.
I can't think of a reason not to. But I don't think you could call it a
vector, just an ordered quadruple. Vectors have an invariant magnitude
under transformations, which I think is equivalent to the usually cited
transformations rules which I can't quite recall right now. I don't think
this one transforms as a vector. Unless you had something besides the
usual transformations in mind.
--
"Let us learn to dream, gentlemen, then perhaps we shall find the
truth... But let us beware of publishing our dreams before they have been
put to the proof by the waking understanding." -- Friedrich August Kekulé
.
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| User: "Tom Potter" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
05 Nov 2003 11:34:51 PM |
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(Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in message news:<bob14n$uds$1@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...
In article <boa0p2$1bvdu3$1@ID-188019.news.uni-berlin.de>,
Tom Potter <tdp@hotsheet.com> wrote:
"Gregory L. Hansen" < > wrote in message
news:bo9p92$hc9$2@hood.uits.indiana.edu...
In article <c38f0627.0311041507.3a675427@posting.google.com>,
John Tapper <xixj_0@yahoo.com> wrote:
Just interested in the history of the word "spacetime" as becoming one
word.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=spacetime (these guys put a
hyphen)
space-time (spstm)
n. Physics
The four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial
coordinates in which any event or physical object is located.
For historical research, who changed the dimensions from 3 to 4?
I believe that would be Minkowski.
Can I dare ask why?
Because meaningful vector operations can be performed on four-vectors.
The magnitude of a position four-vector, for instance, makes sense,
A = (ct,x,y,z)
How about expressing time, space and mass
in the same units thusly?
A = (MG/c^3,ct,x,y,z)
space(X) = time interval(X) * C
mass(X) * G / C^3 = time intervals(x,y,z)^3 / time period(v,w)^2
Times v and w are periods and precessions respectively.
I can't think of a reason not to. But I don't think you could call it a
vector, just an ordered quadruple. Vectors have an invariant magnitude
under transformations, which I think is equivalent to the usually cited
transformations rules which I can't quite recall right now. I don't think
this one transforms as a vector. Unless you had something besides the
usual transformations in mind.
Maybe some a good mathematican,
with access to Solar System data,
will compute the vectors,
extend the concept to atomic systems, (Charge)
and win a Nobel Prize.
Newton and Kepler showed that
mass is a function of time and space.
They just didn't complete the work,
because it wasn't clear at that time,
that time intervals were equivalent to spaces.
--
Tom Potter
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| User: "Imam Tashdid ul Alam" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
05 Nov 2003 03:55:29 AM |
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(Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in message news:<bo9p92$hc9$2@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...
d^2/d(x^u)^2 phi = 0
where c is a wave propagation speed, not necessarily that of light, or
invariant.
In my other post, the correction should read,
(\nabla^2 - {1 \over c^2} {\partial_t}^2) \phi = 0
I couldn't resist it. Such a beautiful equation.
:)
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
05 Nov 2003 08:09:53 AM |
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"Imam Tashdid ul Alam" <uchchwhash@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e5e1d6bd.0311050155.28d2bac8@posting.google.com...
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in message news:<bo9p92$hc9$2@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...
d^2/d(x^u)^2 phi = 0
where c is a wave propagation speed, not necessarily that of light, or
invariant.
In my other post, the correction should read,
(\nabla^2 - {1 \over c^2} {\partial_t}^2) \phi = 0
I couldn't resist it. Such a beautiful equation.
Any specific reason why you stopped using your
"John Schoenfeld" name?
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "Imam Tashdid ul Alam" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
05 Nov 2003 07:46:38 PM |
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"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3fa904d8$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>...
"Imam Tashdid ul Alam" <uchchwhash@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e5e1d6bd.0311050155.28d2bac8@posting.google.com...
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in message news:<bo9p92$hc9$2@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...
d^2/d(x^u)^2 phi = 0
where c is a wave propagation speed, not necessarily that of light, or
invariant.
In my other post, the correction should read,
(\nabla^2 - {1 \over c^2} {\partial_t}^2) \phi = 0
I couldn't resist it. Such a beautiful equation.
Any specific reason why you stopped using your
"John Schoenfeld" name?
Dirk Vdm
No. I never had the name. I didn't get the joke. Pardon me if I was
supposed to laugh.
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
06 Nov 2003 03:38:54 AM |
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"Imam Tashdid ul Alam" <uchchwhash@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e5e1d6bd.0311051746.323e8630@posting.google.com...
"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3fa904d8$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>...
"Imam Tashdid ul Alam" <uchchwhash@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e5e1d6bd.0311050155.28d2bac8@posting.google.com...
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in message news:<bo9p92$hc9$2@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...
d^2/d(x^u)^2 phi = 0
where c is a wave propagation speed, not necessarily that of light, or
invariant.
In my other post, the correction should read,
(\nabla^2 - {1 \over c^2} {\partial_t}^2) \phi = 0
I couldn't resist it. Such a beautiful equation.
Any specific reason why you stopped using your
"John Schoenfeld" name?
Dirk Vdm
No. I never had the name. I didn't get the joke.
Pardon me if I was supposed to laugh.
Sure you had the name.
No joke.
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
06 Nov 2003 11:14:19 AM |
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"Imam Tashdid ul Alam" <uchchwhash@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e5e1d6bd.0311051746.323e8630@posting.google.com...
"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3fa904d8$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>...
"Imam Tashdid ul Alam" <uchchwhash@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e5e1d6bd.0311050155.28d2bac8@posting.google.com...
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in message news:<bo9p92$hc9$2@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...
d^2/d(x^u)^2 phi = 0
where c is a wave propagation speed, not necessarily that of light, or
invariant.
In my other post, the correction should read,
(\nabla^2 - {1 \over c^2} {\partial_t}^2) \phi = 0
I couldn't resist it. Such a beautiful equation.
Any specific reason why you stopped using your
"John Schoenfeld" name?
Dirk Vdm
No. I never had the name. I didn't get the joke. Pardon me if I was
supposed to laugh.
Ah, I think I was mistaken - Sorry.
Please accept my apologies...
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "Imam Tashdid ul Alam" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
05 Nov 2003 03:48:49 AM |
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(Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in message news:<bo9p92$hc9$2@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...
In article <c38f0627.0311041507.3a675427@posting.google.com>,
John Tapper <xixj_0@yahoo.com> wrote:
Just interested in the history of the word "spacetime" as becoming one
word.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=spacetime (these guys put a
hyphen)
space-time (spstm)
n. Physics
The four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial
coordinates in which any event or physical object is located.
For historical research, who changed the dimensions from 3 to 4?
I believe that would be Minkowski.
Me too. In another post you will find his overwhelming comment. The
point is, there was the Lorentz-FitzGerald contraction hypothesis,
that claimed that things get shrunk when they move through aether.
Perhaps overlooked was the similar mathematical prediction from
Maxwell's equation the time goes slow too.
I am writing it for the OP of course. All the rest of you are
virtually relativity nerds.
So if you are still interested in the history, Einstein proposed
something rather dramatic. He considered that simultaneity may not be
physical. Maybe, when we talk about things far away, what we reckon is
happening "right now", some other planet might think it happened
yesterday, another one tomorrow. He ascribed this idea to the fact
that the speed of light is the same, no matter what velocity you are
tralling, which is of course, a flat contradiction to the idea of
"3-dimentional space and completely unrelated 1-dimentional time".
People might tell you that that speed of light is constant, blah,
blah, blah, was proved by Michaelson and Morley, and Einstein put
forward relativity to explain it. I think (and have read) Einstein did
it for Maxwell's sake.
Can I dare ask why?
Because meaningful vector operations can be performed on four-vectors.
The magnitude of a position four-vector, for instance, makes sense,
A = (ct,x,y,z)
|A|^2 = c^2 t^2 - x^2 - y^2 - z^2
which is a statement of the metric of the space; it is the equivalent of
length and is the quantity that's preserved under a Lorentz
transformation. Galilean transformations preserve lengths which don't
include time.
Yeah. You see, length gets contracted and time runs slow. When, when
you are moving. With respect to what?
Things require a bit of thought over here. Einstein understood what he
said and thought he said it because simultaneity does not exist. So if
you measure a length of a *moving* object, you have to measure the
position of the two ends simultaneously *in your frame*, and others
will think *you did it wrong* because you measured the front end,
waited a while, and *then* measured the position of the back end.
The point is, these two come in pairs. If only Oliver Heaviside noted
that (he is my idol!). Moreover, they are so changed from frame to
frame that, in spite of both of them, or rather, *because* both of
them acts on the measurement,
... = c^2 t^2 - x^2 - y^2 - z^2
stays the same for everyone. It's it nice to know?
Enough physics, back to history. You see, as the other posters said,
Einstein did not notice that
THIS IS A GEOMETRY....IN FELIX KLEIN'S SENSE
and his math teacher, Minkowski, was the first to point out that as in
Euclidean geometry, x^2 + y^2 + z^2 remains the same for all
coordinate frames (it is the length squared, so it doesn't matter with
coordinate you are using, or in which orientation) and that specifies
everything about the geometry we know, so is the case for relativity
(that the expression Hansen wrote down stays the same no matter what
your velocity is, is enough to account for every relativistic
phenomena).
But I think it's interesting that in some late 19th century studies of
rotating objects, a four-dimensional formalism was developed for
mathematical convenience, with no physical significance ascribed to it.
Well, to OP, this is something you should be aware of when you are
telling the story to someone outside the physics world. Euclidean
space is R x R x R, that is (x, y, z), ordered tuple, member of the
Cartesian product set of three copies of real number (notice that all
this jargon really means nothing interesting). So, the position of a
particle, and the time, is, mathematically speaking, R x R x R x R, a
"four-dimensional" (I apologize for the former misspellings of the
word dimension) set. But it is solely and extremely classical, as
opposed to relativistic. It the that special expression (called 'form'
in mathematics) that distinguished Minkowski's spacetime from these
silly and non-informative constructions. What Hansen is speaking of is
slightly complicated, but still classical. Nothing to do with why the
word "spacetime" survived.
And even a Newtonian wave equation has the form of
d^2/d(x^u)^2 phi = 0
where c is a wave propagation speed, not necessarily that of light, or
invariant.
Dear Hanson,
I had a terrible time trying to figure out what you said. Correct
me if I am wrong. You said:
And even a Newtonian wave equation has the form of
(\delta^2 - c \partial_t^2) \phi = 0
where c is the ...
And the plane wave that shows up in quantum mechanics,
psi ~ exp[i(px - Et)/hbar]
Looks a lot like a four-momentum dotted into a four-position. It's almost
like there's something about nature that wants a four-dimensional
description even if your kinematics don't support it.
To OP, it *is* dotted into ... just that the dot product is to be read
consistently with "the form" we are talking about. Don't take this
post lightly, because it has the curse of the black pearl attached to
it (my $8, oh my sweet $8, lost forever).
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
05 Nov 2003 08:57:51 AM |
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In article <e5e1d6bd.0311050148.4dd9c3a7@posting.google.com>,
Imam Tashdid ul Alam <uchchwhash@hotmail.com> wrote:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in message
news:<bo9p92$hc9$2@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...
In article <c38f0627.0311041507.3a675427@posting.google.com>,
John Tapper <xixj_0@yahoo.com> wrote:
Can I dare ask why?
Because meaningful vector operations can be performed on four-vectors.
The magnitude of a position four-vector, for instance, makes sense,
I should probably have said it's because four-vectors transform the way
vectors do, since the transformation rules are usually cited as the
definition of a vector. Not every ordered n-tuple will transform the
right way. But that means you can take dot products and cross products,
and operate with div, grad, curl and all that.
But I think it's interesting that in some late 19th century studies of
rotating objects, a four-dimensional formalism was developed for
mathematical convenience, with no physical significance ascribed to it.
Well, to OP, this is something you should be aware of when you are
telling the story to someone outside the physics world. Euclidean
space is R x R x R, that is (x, y, z), ordered tuple, member of the
Cartesian product set of three copies of real number (notice that all
this jargon really means nothing interesting). So, the position of a
particle, and the time, is, mathematically speaking, R x R x R x R, a
"four-dimensional" (I apologize for the former misspellings of the
word dimension) set. But it is solely and extremely classical, as
opposed to relativistic. It the that special expression (called 'form'
in mathematics) that distinguished Minkowski's spacetime from these
silly and non-informative constructions. What Hansen is speaking of is
slightly complicated, but still classical. Nothing to do with why the
word "spacetime" survived.
Slightly complicated, but I was trying to understand GR-style inertial
forces in a Newtonian context. The geodesic equation is something like
a_i = -{i,jk} v_j v_k
where a_i is the i'th component of acceleration, v_j the j'th component of
velocity, and {i,jk} the Christoffel symbols, which say how the basis
vectors change when you move around. In relativity we can let the
indices run from 0 to 3, with 0 being time. Then what in the Newtonian
theory would be the gravitational potential can be seen as
a_i = -{i,00} (v_0)^2
where v_0 is the object's velocity in the time direction. Multiply
through by m and set v_0=1 (slow speeds, weak fields, one second of
coordinate time per second of proper time),
F_i = -m{i,00}
with an obvious correspondence to Newton's law,
F = -m (GM/r^2) r^hat
Well, inertial forces exist in Newtonian mechanics, too, as in the
infamous accelerating rocket, but Newtonian mechanics doesn't have a 0'th
coordinate. But it can be inserted artifically if you use the metric
ds^2 = 0*dt^2 + dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2
where the first component, multiplied by zero, is just there to remind you
that something could go there if you make a transformation to an
accelerated frame. I can't reconcile that with the usual
relativistic->Newtonian prescription of letting c->inf.
I don't know if the 19th century researchers did it that way, I saw them
cited in Goldstein but the library didn't have them. But I can't think of
another way to put inertial forces into Newtonian mechanics in the context
of differential geometry. Goldstein did it by explicitly calculating
changes in basis vectors.
And even a Newtonian wave equation has the form of
d^2/d(x^u)^2 phi = 0
where c is a wave propagation speed, not necessarily that of light, or
invariant.
Dear Hanson,
I had a terrible time trying to figure out what you said. Correct
me if I am wrong. You said:
And even a Newtonian wave equation has the form of
(\delta^2 - c \partial_t^2) \phi = 0
where c is the ...
1/c, as you said in your next message. Sorry, I should have used a few
more words there, including but not limited to "summing with i going from
0 to 3".
--
"Let us learn to dream, gentlemen, then perhaps we shall find the
truth... But let us beware of publishing our dreams before they have been
put to the proof by the waking understanding." -- Friedrich August Kekulé
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| User: "Imam Tashdid ul Alam" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
27 Nov 2003 09:29:43 AM |
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(Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in message
Slightly complicated, but I was trying to understand GR-style inertial
forces in a Newtonian context. The geodesic equation is something like
a_i = -{i,jk} v_j v_k
where a_i is the i'th component of acceleration, v_j the j'th component of
velocity, and {i,jk} the Christoffel symbols, which say how the basis
vectors change when you move around. In relativity we can let the
indices run from 0 to 3, with 0 being time. Then what in the Newtonian
theory would be the gravitational potential can be seen as
a_i = -{i,00} (v_0)^2
where v_0 is the object's velocity in the time direction. Multiply
through by m and set v_0=1 (slow speeds, weak fields, one second of
coordinate time per second of proper time),
F_i = -m{i,00}
with an obvious correspondence to Newton's law,
F = -m (GM/r^2) r^hat
Well, inertial forces exist in Newtonian mechanics, too, as in the
infamous accelerating rocket, but Newtonian mechanics doesn't have a 0'th
coordinate. But it can be inserted artifically if you use the metric
ds^2 = 0*dt^2 + dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2
where the first component, multiplied by zero, is just there to remind you
that something could go there if you make a transformation to an
accelerated frame. I can't reconcile that with the usual
relativistic->Newtonian prescription of letting c->inf.
I don't know if the 19th century researchers did it that way, I saw them
cited in Goldstein but the library didn't have them. But I can't think of
another way to put inertial forces into Newtonian mechanics in the context
of differential geometry. Goldstein did it by explicitly calculating
changes in basis vectors.
Oh, I totally forgot about the post. I tried the same, and hard luck.
I guess our quest of knowledge about the 19th century adventure
towards spacetime meets a dead end here. :(
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
04 Nov 2003 05:47:47 PM |
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John Tapper wrote:
For historical research, who changed the dimensions from 3 to 4?
Can I dare ask why?
You need three spatial co-ordinates and one time co-ordinate to
completely specify an event.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Starblade Darksquall" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
04 Nov 2003 11:43:33 PM |
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"Robert J. Kolker" <bobkolker@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<bo9dr3$1c2e81$2@ID-76471.news.uni-berlin.de>...
John Tapper wrote:
For historical research, who changed the dimensions from 3 to 4?
Can I dare ask why?
You need three spatial co-ordinates and one time co-ordinate to
completely specify an event.
Bob Kolker
Actually... that's not what changed.
What changed is the view that time and space are interchangeable, at
least to some extent. If you consider 'dimensionality' the number of
independant directions, or at least semi-independant, then there never
was a change from 3 to 4, it was always just 4.
(...Starblade Riven Darksquall...)
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| User: "Timo Nieminen" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
04 Nov 2003 05:42:55 PM |
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On Wed, 4 Nov 2003, John Tapper wrote:
Just interested in the history of the word "spacetime" as becoming one
word.
IIRC Einstein used the one-word (German) version. Don't know if it
predates his usage.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=spacetime (these guys put a
hyphen)
space-time (spstm)
n. Physics
The four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial
coordinates in which any event or physical object is located.
For historical research, who changed the dimensions from 3 to 4?
Can I dare ask why?
4 coordinates = 4 dimensional. Nobody changed dimensions from 3 to 4,
events are described in Galilean/Newtonian mechanics in 4D spacetime. The
change is in whether or not the time coordinate is independent of the
space coordinates (or absolute, if you prefer), or more precisely,
independent of transformation from one inertial coordinate system to
another.
Lorentz transformations give the link between space and time. You might be
interested in reading why Lorentz did that stuff.
The particular 4D spacetime as used in SR can be considered as a
consequence of the LTs, insofar as it gives the LTs. I assume that it's
called Minkowski space for a reason, so you might consider adding that
name to your searches.
--
Timo Nieminen - Home page: http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/nieminen/
Shrine to Spirits: http://www.users.bigpond.com/timo_nieminen/spirits.html
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| User: "George Jones" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
04 Nov 2003 06:34:18 PM |
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Timo Nieminen wrote:
I assume that it's
called Minkowski space for a reason, so you might consider adding that
name to your searches.
Minkowski, a mathematician, taught Einstein and was thoroughly
unimpressesd with Einstein's study habits and attitiude towards
mathematics. Minkowski referred to Einstein as a "lazy dog."
Thus, it is ironic that Minkowski, building on the work of Einstein,
opened his talk at a 1908 conference with: "The views of space and time
which I wish to lay before you have sprung from the soil of experimental
physics, and therein lies their strength. They are radical. Henceforth
space by itself, and time by itself, are doomed to fade away into mere
shadows, and only a kind of union of the two will preserve an
independent reality."
At first, Einstein was upset with what the mathematicians had done to
his theory, so a second irony is that the spacetime viewpoint given
first by the mathematician Minkowski eventually helped Einstein move
from special relativity to general relativity.
Regards,
George
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| User: "John Tapper" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
04 Nov 2003 11:58:27 PM |
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George Jones <george_llew_jones@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3FA8458A.601A5114@yahoo.com>...
Timo Nieminen wrote:
I assume that it's
called Minkowski space for a reason, so you might consider adding that
name to your searches.
Thus, it is ironic that Minkowski, building on the work of Einstein,
opened his talk at a 1908 conference with: "The views of space and time
which I wish to lay before you have sprung from the soil of experimental
physics, and therein lies their strength. They are radical. Henceforth
space by itself, and time by itself, are doomed to fade away into mere
shadows, and only a kind of union of the two will preserve an
independent reality."
At first, Einstein was upset with what the mathematicians had done to
his theory, so a second irony is that the spacetime viewpoint given
first by the mathematician Minkowski eventually helped Einstein move
from special relativity to general relativity.
Regards,
George
Thank you for taking the question seriously and pointing where to read
further. Found some great reading on Google already. Appreciate it.
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| User: "Tom Potter" |
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| Title: Re: Who coined the term "Spacetime" and made time a dimension? |
04 Nov 2003 10:56:00 PM |
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Time and space have been recognized as "dimensions",
or ways to quantize experience,
for thousands of years.
Mass and volume followed these two "dimensions"
when man began to barter.
Space was integrated into the time dimension
by the epople who recognized that
spaces were equivalent to time intervals.
Minkowski was the first to expound on this.
Mass was integrated into space and time
when Kepler observed that a constant
was a function of the time periods
and the radius' of the planets.
It was left to Newton to determine that
the constant involved a the dimension called mass.
In other words, Newton and Kepler
integrated mass into space/time.
All properties, including space and mass
can be defined in terms of ONE fundamental dimension,
and that dimension is time period.
Space is basically a time interval.
space = time interval * C
As can be seen, C is a constant that
differentiates between time periods,
which are correlations associated with a single body,
and time intervals, which are correlations
associated with two bodies.
The time equivalent of mass is:
time(mass) = time interval^3 / time period^2 = mass * G / C^3
For details on this,
visit my web site and download the physics tutorial,
which discusses the fundamental,
and derived physical properties in explicit detail.
--
Tom Potter http://tompotter.us
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