why can't fields be quantized too?



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "flames"
Date: 22 Aug 2005 09:36:13 PM
Object: why can't fields be quantized too?
Physics said the energy levels of fields are quantized
as in photons but the field itself is not quantized.
What would happen if you quantize the fields too?
flames
.

User: "Bruce Scott TOK"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 23 Aug 2005 11:38:13 AM

Physics said the energy levels of fields are quantized
as in photons but the field itself is not quantized.
What would happen if you quantize the fields too?

You get QED.
--
ciao,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
.
User: ""

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 23 Aug 2005 06:13:07 PM
Bruce Scott TOK wrote:

Physics said the energy levels of fields are quantized
as in photons but the field itself is not quantized.
What would happen if you quantize the fields too?


You get QED.


--
ciao,
Bruce

drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/

finish the sentence: you get QED with all its inaccuracies and
singularities, including renormalizations!!
those people who say dirac "did it already" (quantized the fields) are
wrong!! what dirac did was to quantize the EQUATIONS, not the fields
which remained continuous as in the older classical days; the fields of
QFT are STILL continuous today!! a look at heitler amongst others will
confirm
W. Heitler, The quantum theory of radiation, (Dover, New York, NY,
1984)
what self-field theory does in effect is to use a discontinuous, and
discrete form of field , photons which can themselves be particles
too!! it was this that lead me to TRY to use the photon as a massive
entity and following this analytic path yielded photonic chemistry and
its links to a
generalized system of Maxwell-Lorentz equations and their analytic
solution.
it should be realised that NO-ONE has previously solved Maxwell's
equations DIRECTLY; quantum mechanics uses DERIVED wave equations with
potentials, (that are integrals of the fields), constants of
integration (ambiguities and hence 'renormalizations' near
singularities), and lagrangians.
Like QED and QCD that use modified lagrangians, SFT uses
modified Maxwell-Lorentz field equations, by adding in the capability
of particles to move with additional degrees of freedom to those
exhibited by EM, thus we obtain strong nuclear and weak nuclear SFT
(SNSFT and WNSFT).so there is a parallelism between QFT and SFT that is
analogous to FEM and FDM!!
SFT also fixes up the coulomb assumption which is incorrect at the
atomic domain- you need to calculate the fields between centres of
motion not between charge points. this causes the inaccuracy known as
the uncertainty principle, when you use point-to-point you always have
a non-linear field form, but with centres of motion you effectively
'get a chance to linearize'
the system of equations hence you can solve the equations directly
rather than having to use lagrangians etc a la QFT
.
User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 24 Aug 2005 04:41:57 AM
wrote:

Bruce Scott TOK wrote:

Physics said the energy levels of fields are quantized
as in photons but the field itself is not quantized.
What would happen if you quantize the fields too?


You get QED.


--
ciao,
Bruce

drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/



finish the sentence: you get QED with all its inaccuracies

What is an "inaccuracy" of QED?

and singularities, including renormalizations!!

Renormalization works quite fine, where is your problem?
Care to calculate e.g. the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron
without QED?

those people who say dirac "did it already" (quantized the fields) are
wrong!!

Well, partly. Dirac started the work only, it was completed by
Feynman, Tomonaga and Schwinger.

what dirac did was to quantize the EQUATIONS, not the fields
which remained continuous as in the older classical days;
the fields of QFT are STILL continuous today!!

Word salad and utter nonsense. Saying that equations are quantized
makes no sense at all! Thanks for showing that you have not the
*faintest* clue what you are talking about.

a look at heitler amongst others will confirm
W. Heitler, The quantum theory of radiation, (Dover, New York, NY,
1984)

Heitler shows in no way that "the fields of QFT are continuous".

what self-field theory does in effect is to use a discontinuous, and
discrete form of fiel , photons which can themselves be particles
too!

Err, and what's the difference to QED? If you did not notice: QED also
uses photons, and in QED, photons also are particles. I don't
understand why you inserted the word "themselves" and "too" here, both
make no sense in the sentence.

it was this that lead me to TRY to use the photon as a massive
entity

With what mass, specifically? You *are* talking about the *rest* mass
here, aren't you?

and following this analytic path yielded photonic chemistry

And that's what, precisely? And: can it explain the observed electron
densities of molecules?
[snip]

it should be realised that NO-ONE has previously solved Maxwell's
equations DIRECTLY;

Balderdash. A lot of solutions can be found in any textbook on
electrodynamics.

quantum mechanics uses DERIVED wave equations with potentials,

And what exactly is the problem with that?

(that are integrals of the fields),

And fields themselves, may I remind you. Scalar fields.

constants of
integration (ambiguities and hence 'renormalizations' near
singularities),

Renormalization has little to do with ambiguities and constants of
integration, and saying "near singularities" makes absolutely no sense
here.

and lagrangians.

Lagrangians were already used in classical mechanics about 100 years
previously, so what is your problem with them?

Like QED and QCD that use modified lagrangians, SFT uses
modified Maxwell-Lorentz field equations, by adding in the capability
of particles to move with additional degrees of freedom to those
exhibited by EM,

Word salad.

thus we obtain strong nuclear and weak nuclear SFT
(SNSFT and WNSFT).

Feel free to explain even *one* actual experimental result with
these theories. Quantitatively.
You could start with the breaking of Bjorken scale invariance.

so there is a parallelism between QFT and SFT that is
analogous to FEM and FDM!!

That looks like a false analogy, since both FEM and FDM are legitimate
methods, whereas only QFT is a sensible theory.

SFT also fixes up the coulomb assumption

And that is?

which is incorrect at the
atomic domain- you need to calculate the fields between centres of
motion not between charge points.

Why?
And: centres of motions of *what*?

this causes the inaccuracy known as
the uncertainty principle,

Plain nonsense. Read up on "hidden variables", Bell's inequality etc.

when you use point-to-point you always have
a non-linear field form,

Huh?

but with centres of motion you effectively
'get a chance to linearize'
the system of equations hence you can solve the equations directly
rather than having to use lagrangians etc a la QFT

Word salad.
Bye,
Bjoern
.
User: "tony fleming"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 24 Aug 2005 06:54:30 AM

Renormalization works quite fine, where is your problem?
Care to calculate e.g. the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron
without QED?

bjeorn believe it or not i HAVE calculated it a few years ago, haven't
written it up yet, too much else to do!! i got incredibly close to the
QED answer, i was using MAPLE and left the work after i realised where
the whole thing was heading!! this was a milestone in my calcs to
verify the SFT technique as something fundamental. don't forget, i had
to convince myself of its benefits first before starting to announce it
to the world.
but sometime down the track i will be writing up a comparison paper
between QFT and SFT and i guess this will feature in this report.
i remember reading how each term could take a year of supercomputing
and thinking "wow" and SFT does it in a few lines of MAPLE code!!
.
User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 25 Aug 2005 04:42:30 AM
tony fleming wrote:

Renormalization works quite fine, where is your problem?
Care to calculate e.g. the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron
without QED?



bjeorn believe it or not i HAVE calculated it a few years ago, haven't
written it up yet, too much else to do!! i got incredibly close to the
QED answer,

"incredibly close" is quite vague. How many significant digits?
[snip]
Bye,
Bjoern
.
User: "tony fleming"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 27 Aug 2005 02:31:52 AM
using a model for the hydorgen atom that uses only EM self-field
theory, and an approximation for the proton as a single point-particle,
i obtained a difference to the 'correct' answer of 1 or 2 places (from
memory) and i thought this was really good given the simplicity of the
model. i am assuming that with more realistic proton model that
employs a full strong nuclear self-field model (SNSFT) that uses both
three quarks exchanging gluons along with a single point-mass electron,
the electron's moment should be able to get significantly closer.
however i'm not sure you'll appreciate what i'm saying here, but who
cares?? those watching on the sidelines can make up their own minds!
btw, i DON'T beleive the hype about QFT and the experimental answer
because the experimental data isn't even known to the significance
claimed!! and if you don't beleive me, have a close look.
.
User: "Autymn D. C."

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 27 Aug 2005 11:50:04 PM
beleive -> believe
Data is plural.
.

User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 27 Aug 2005 08:00:01 AM
tony fleming wrote:
[snip rant]
Address my argument about your misuse of Maxwell's equations, or shut up.
Bye,
Bjoern
.
User: "tony fleming"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 28 Aug 2005 02:28:03 AM
see separate thread on new issue of maxwell's equations;
.
User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 29 Aug 2005 07:40:55 AM
tony fleming wrote:

see separate thread on new issue of maxwell's equations;

I see that there, as expected, you still did not address my argument.
Bye,
Bjoern
.




User: "tony fleming"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 25 Aug 2005 04:54:43 AM
well i DO know the hype surropunding this one bjeorn!! but then even
QFT can't do better than the known experimental data can it; it can't
can it?? the figure was something really really close i'll leave it at
that for now, and report it in a couple of years, by then some poor
QFT'r will have done another computation to check the original figures
done on the cray!! actually i am ashamed to be so flippant; i was one
of those poor buggers doing numerical calcs on a supercomputer in
another life!!
cheers tony
.
User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 25 Aug 2005 05:44:18 AM
tony fleming wrote:

well i DO know the hype surropunding this one bjeorn!! but then even
QFT can't do better than the known experimental data can it; it can't
can it??

I don't know if it can, but I would suspect so.

the figure was something really really close

Again totally vague.
[snip]
Bye,
Bjoern
.




User: "tony fleming"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 24 Aug 2005 06:45:29 AM

it should be realised that NO-ONE has previously solved Maxwell's equations DIRECTLY;

Balderdash. A lot of solutions can be found in any >textbook on electrodynamics.

your words are very telling here and show a complete ignorance of
self-fields or of the solution that has been derived.
Bjeorn when i think about where you're coming from and using your own
words, i see a physicist who uses the mathematics of QFT like a recipe.
you really don't have any intuitive feel for the mathematics; you are
not a mathematician. and many are like you and can't see any other way
to do the maths except via this one tried and true quantum maths path;
it's been good enough for decades so why change the way we do things??
well, you can continue to use QFT that is your prerogative, and it is
mine to continue to push on into the new frontiers that open up by
using self-field theory.
btw are going to take up my two-slit challenge? does shrodingers' cat
live, or die, or is he just happily asleep?
maybe some experimental physicist will see if my theory about the slits
being coherent is correct??
.
User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 25 Aug 2005 04:41:21 AM
tony fleming wrote:

it should be realised that NO-ONE has previously solved Maxwell's
equations DIRECTLY;



Balderdash. A lot of solutions can be found in any
textbook on electrodynamics.



your words are very telling here and show a complete ignorance of
self-fields or of the solution that has been derived.

Do you *really* want to tell me that Maxwell's equations have never
been solved in any textbook?
Well, what about the standard examples of the field of a point charge,
of a capacitor, of a long coil, of a straight wire, etc. etc. etc.?

Bjeorn when i think about where you're coming from and using your own
words, i see a physicist who uses the mathematics of QFT like a recipe.

Close, but no cigar.

you really don't have any intuitive feel for the mathematics;

ROTFL!

you are not a mathematician.

Indeed. Hint: neither are you.

and many are like you and can't see any other way
to do the maths except via this one tried and true quantum maths path;

IT WORKS.
And in contrast to your SFT, QFT's math is internally consistent.

it's been good enough for decades so why change the way we do things??

Indeed. Hint: if you want to claim that QFT is wrong, then bring up
a piece of experimental evidence which contradicts it.

well, you can continue to use QFT that is your prerogative, and it is
mine to continue to push on into the new frontiers that open up by
using self-field theory.

Try to get your math right first.

btw are going to take up my two-slit challenge?

First address my comments wrt your use of Maxwell's equations.

does shrodingers' cat live, or die, or is he just happily asleep?

Wow. So you know so little about QM that you don't even manage to
write Schrödinger's name correctly.

maybe some experimental physicist will see if my theory about the slits
being coherent is correct??

Good luck.
Bye,
Bjoern
.
User: "tony fleming"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 27 Aug 2005 07:09:48 AM
bjeorn "the dame protesteth too much"!! why are you so denfensive about
QFT?? why do you try to claim i'm saying QFT is wrong?? you're not a
very careful reader; i have said on more than one occasion now that QFT
and SFT are really alike, just like FDM is to FEM. but you just ignore
this
and stop trying to say this crap about what i'm saying about maxwell's
equations; i don't think you really undestand them at all, let alone me
or my technique!! it's really a close analogy to talk about FEM and
FDM; why don't you just have a look at these numerical techniques and
think about QFT, and then SFT!
but please, QFT apart from HUP, is fine!! ok?? these no issue about
QFT's 'correctness' (read accuracy); nor SFT!! you are inclined to be
stroppy and defensive when the truth is IMHO both SFT and QFT give a
'stereoscopic' view of the physics.i think you will find in a decade or
two that BOTH techniques will be used and will complement each other.
(just like FDM and FEM)
i do thin that SFT can obtain some truths that QFT can't at the moment
due to HUP, but when HUP is finally ditched, QFT will have an
uncluttered view and be more accurate!!
cheers tony
.
User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 27 Aug 2005 07:59:31 AM
tony fleming wrote:
[snip rant]
Address my argument about your misuse of Maxwell's equations, or shut up.
Bye,
Bjoern
.





User: ""

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 23 Aug 2005 06:37:32 PM
let me say here and now, in the midst of my detractors, i have no issue
with the methodology of QFT. i say this because the methodology of SFT
turns out to be very akin to QFT but with major differences.
lets look at the matter of groups- strong resemblance in both cases;
the use of modified lagrangians compared with the modified
Maxwell-Lortentz equations - again very similar; mathematically there
are strong similarilities
but the use of centre-of motion fields is a key difference; in QFT it
leads to uncertainty (whether you call this a numerical accuracy or a
so-called 'fabric of reality' is of no account, it's still an
inaccuracy. in SFT no uncertainty and hence we get knowledge of the
photon, which isn't allowed in QFT (at present). don't forget that we
can use these centre of motion fields INSIDE QFT if we wish-now that
would be a useful exercise-i wonder what we get?
what we need to do is to see physics and its equations from outside the
prism of uncertainty, gentlemen
.
User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 24 Aug 2005 04:45:19 AM
wrote:

let me say here and now, in the midst of my detractors, i have no issue
with the methodology of QFT. i say this because the methodology of SFT
turns out to be very akin to QFT but with major differences.

"very akin but with major differences"? Make up your mind!
BTW, you are not in the position to judge the metholodogy of QFT and
its resemblance to SFT, because you have amply demonstrated with your
comments up to now that you don't understand it.

lets look at the matter of groups- strong resemblance in both cases;

Some of your comments already showed very nicely that you don't
understand the groups SU(2) and SU(3).

the use of modified lagrangians compared with the modified
Maxwell-Lortentz equations - again very similar; mathematically there
are strong similarilities

Just because in both cases, you modify something???

but the use of centre-of motion fields is a key difference; in QFT it
leads to uncertainty

Plain nonsense.

(whether you call this a numerical accuracy or a
so-called 'fabric of reality' is of no account, it's still an
inaccuracy.

No, it isn't.

in SFT no uncertainty

Then it's wrong, plain and simple.

and hence we get knowledge of the
photon, which isn't allowed in QFT (at present).

Plain utter nonsense. A photon is defined perfectly well in QFT.

don't forget that we
can use these centre of motion fields INSIDE QFT if we wish-now that
would be a useful exercise-i wonder what we get?

Well, you are free to try this out as soon as you have shown that you
understand basic electrodynamics.

what we need to do is to see physics and its equations from outside the
prism of uncertainty, gentlemen

Feel free.
Bye,
Bjoern
.
User: "tony fleming"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 24 Aug 2005 05:34:32 AM
wrote:

let me say here and now, in the midst of my detractors, i have no issue
with the methodology of QFT. i say this because the methodology of SFT
turns out to be very akin to QFT but with major differences.

"very akin but with major differences"? Make up your mind!

it's actually the uncertainty principle that stands out as the major
difference bteween QFT and SFT and this is due to the use of the
classical coulombic field forms that we get problems such as
renormalization and many other numerical problems such as infinite
series approximations to the fields in QFT which are avoided in SFT.
realise as i said previously that both methods ARE valid; it's only
this uncertainty principle that clouds or shoud i say pollutes the QFT
method. uncertainty has had its use-by-date bjeorn; it's a numerical
accuracy associated with the coulombic fields inside QFT

BTW, you are not in the position to judge the metholodogy of QFT and
its resemblance to SFT, because you have amply demonstrated with your
comments up to now that you don't understand it.

you're an arrogant person bjeorn!

lets look at the matter of groups- strong resemblance in both cases;

Some of your comments already showed very nicely that you don't
understand the groups SU(2) and SU(3).

not true; there's a unison between the groups of QED, QCD and SFT

the use of modified lagrangians compared with the modified
Maxwell-Lortentz equations - again very similar; mathematically there
are strong similarilities

Just because in both cases, you modify something???

i was trying to point out that the potential wave equations which are
derived from the maxwell-lorentz equations are modified to yield QED
and QCD, and in the same way we modify the maxwell equations to get
WNSFT and SNSFT; to my mind this IS a strong similarity

but the use of centre-of motion fields is a key difference; in QFT it
leads to uncertainty

Plain nonsense.

no it's not!!

(whether you call this a numerical accuracy or a
so-called 'fabric of reality' is of no account, it's still an
inaccuracy.

No, it isn't.

yes it is!!

in SFT no uncertainty

Then it's wrong, plain and simple.

no you're mistaken

and hence we get knowledge of the
photon, which isn't allowed in QFT (at present).

Plain utter nonsense. A photon is defined perfectly well in QFT.

no it's not!!

don't forget that we
can use these centre of motion fields INSIDE QFT if we wish-now that
would be a useful exercise-i wonder what we get?

Well, you are free to try this out as soon as you have shown that you
understand basic electrodynamics.

i already have and it works beyond my wildest expectations!!

what we need to do is to see physics and its equations from outside the
prism of uncertainty, gentlemen

Feel free.

ok, thank you
.
User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 25 Aug 2005 04:37:25 AM
tony fleming wrote:

tflemi...@hotkey.net.au wrote:

let me say here and now, in the midst of my detractors, i have no issue
with the methodology of QFT. i say this because the methodology of SFT
turns out to be very akin to QFT but with major differences.




"very akin but with major differences"? Make up your mind!



it's actually the uncertainty principle that stands out as the major
difference bteween QFT and SFT and this is due to the use of the
classical coulombic field forms

I've asked you several times now what you mean with "forms" here. When
will you finally tell me?

that we get problems such as
renormalization and many other numerical problems such as infinite
series approximations to the fields in QFT

Word salad. Thanks for showing yet again that you have no clue of QFT.

which are avoided in SFT.
realise as i said previously that both methods ARE valid; it's only
this uncertainty principle that clouds or shoud i say pollutes the QFT
method. uncertainty has had its use-by-date bjeorn; it's a numerical
accuracy associated with the coulombic fields inside QFT

Nonsense.

BTW, you are not in the position to judge the metholodogy of QFT and
its resemblance to SFT, because you have amply demonstrated with your
comments up to now that you don't understand it.



you're an arrogant person bjeorn!

Says the one who claims that QFT is wrong, although tens of thousands
of physicists actually working with it day after day think otherwise.
Nice example of the pot calling the kettle black.

lets look at the matter of groups- strong resemblance in both cases;



Some of your comments already showed very nicely that you don't
understand the groups SU(2) and SU(3).



not true; there's a unison between the groups of QED, QCD and SFT

Precisely true. You have no clue of group theory.

the use of modified lagrangians compared with the modified
Maxwell-Lortentz equations - again very similar; mathematically there
are strong similarilities



Just because in both cases, you modify something???



i was trying to point out that the potential wave equations
which are derived from the maxwell-lorentz equations

Could you please *finally* tell me what equations you are talking
about, specifically?

are modified to yield QED and QCD,

Utter nonsense. Neither QED nor QCD come about by modifying equations
for potentials.
[snip]

but the use of centre-of motion fields is a key difference; in QFT it
leads to uncertainty




Plain nonsense.



no it's not!!

Yes, it is. We could carry this on for a while...

(whether you call this a numerical accuracy or a
so-called 'fabric of reality' is of no account, it's still an
inaccuracy.




No, it isn't.



yes it is!!

No, it isn't. We could carry this on for a while...

in SFT no uncertainty


Then it's wrong, plain and simple.



no you're mistaken

I've worked in QFT and QM for several years now. I know quite
a lot about the theories and the reasoning behind them. You, OTOH,
have amply demonstrated that you don't even understand classical
electrodynamics. I think it's clear who is in a better position
to judge if uncertainty is necessary or not.

and hence we get knowledge of the
photon, which isn't allowed in QFT (at present).


Plain utter nonsense. A photon is defined perfectly well in QFT.



no it's not!!

Yes, it is.

don't forget that we
can use these centre of motion fields INSIDE QFT if we wish-now that
would be a useful exercise-i wonder what we get?


Well, you are free to try this out as soon as you have shown that you
understand basic electrodynamics.




i already have

You have already shown that you don't understand it. See my argument
for which you opened another thread, but did not even attempt to
address it there.

and it works beyond my wildest expectations!!

That doesn't change the fact that you are using it wrongly.
[snip]
Bye,
Bjoern
.
User: "tony fleming"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 25 Aug 2005 05:03:52 AM

BTW, you are not in the position to judge the metholodogy of QFT and
its resemblance to SFT, because you have >amply demonstrated with your
comments up to now that you don't >understand it.

you're an arrogant person bjeorn!

Says the one who claims that QFT is wrong, >although tens of thousands
of physicists actually working with it day after >day think otherwise.
Nice example of the pot calling the kettle >black.

oh poor bjeorn, let me get out my violin and i'll play you a seranade
to calm your poor ruffled feathers!! LOL
c'mon bjeorn, i have never said QFT is wrong; what i'm saying is that
QFT has a new little buddy called SFT and the two fit hand in glove;
one's a newer theory based on fields and solves the atom data 'exactly'
which QFT can't do, the other is older and has some baggage from the
past, such as coulomb's 200 year old field form, that induces the
inaccuracy known as the uncertainty principle; but i have no doubt that
some smart bod, perhaps you even, will put the newer quantized field
form inside QFT and produce a new updated version of QFT, without
renormalization, and without infinite terms to calculate!!.
.
User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 25 Aug 2005 05:43:17 AM
tony fleming wrote:

BTW, you are not in the position to judge the metholodogy of QFT and
its resemblance to SFT, because you have >amply demonstrated with your
comments up to now that you don't >understand it.



you're an arrogant person bjeorn!





Says the one who claims that QFT is wrong, >although tens of thousands
of physicists actually working with it day after >day think otherwise.



Nice example of the pot calling the kettle >black.



oh poor bjeorn, let me get out my violin and i'll play you a seranade
to calm your poor ruffled feathers!! LOL

c'mon bjeorn, i have never said QFT is wrong;

Err, you keep claiming that because QFT uses uncertainty, it is (at
least) incomplete. You keep saying that uncertainty is not a
fundamental feature of nature, but merely appears to be so because of
errors made in QM and QFT. If that is *not* saying that QFT is wrong,
then I don't know what it is.

what i'm saying is that
QFT has a new little buddy called SFT and the two fit hand in glove;

Actually, the two contradict each other.

one's a newer theory based on fields and solves the atom data 'exactly'
which QFT can't do,

QFT explains a lot more about atomic spectra than SFT. Try addressing
fine structure and the Lamb shift - both things which QFT addresses
quite nicely, *additionally* to the Balmer formula.

the other is older and has some baggage from the
past, such as coulomb's 200 year old field form, that induces the
inaccuracy known as the uncertainty principle;

See? You do it again. Calling QFT inaccurate.

but i have no doubt that
some smart bod, perhaps you even, will put the newer quantized field
form inside QFT and produce a new updated version of QFT, without
renormalization, and without infinite terms to calculate!!.

Why should someone put something which is so obviously wrong than SFT
into QFT?
Bye,
Bjoern
.



User: "Y.Porat"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 24 Aug 2005 06:05:53 AM
tony fleming wrote:

tflemi...@hotkey.net.au wrote:
pollutes the QFT



but the use of centre-of motion fields is a key difference; in QFT it
leads to uncertainty



Plain nonsense.


no it's not!!

(whether you call this a numerical accuracy or a
so-called 'fabric of reality' is of no account, it's still an
inaccuracy.


.


no you're mistaken

and hence we get knowledge of the
photon, which isn't allowed in QFT (at present).



Plain utter nonsense. A photon is defined perfectly well in QFT.

---------------
'A photon is defined perfectly well in QFT'!!!!!
very interesting
i though that a photon that moves only in straight lines
has nothing to do with creation of attraction!!
now if one can crate the FERTZ .......
he is able to create attraction by photons as well
and 'define it *perfectly well' !!
perfectly as given by God !!
God has some agents on this earth (in case you dont know !!)
and God knows a lot about the Fertz.
----------------------------------------
ATB
Y.Porat
--------------
.






User: "Gregory L. Hansen"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 23 Aug 2005 09:15:16 AM
In article <1124764573.926561.164400@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
flames <fleminginflames@yahoo.com> wrote:


Physics said the energy levels of fields are quantized
as in photons but the field itself is not quantized.
What would happen if you quantize the fields too?

flames

Then you get quantum field theory. Dirac beat you to it.
--
"There's nary an animal alive that can outrun a greased Scotsman!" --
Groundskeeper Willy
.

User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 23 Aug 2005 02:59:00 AM
flames wrote:

Physics said the energy levels of fields are quantized
as in photons but the field itself is not quantized.
What would happen if you quantize the fields too?

Please be specific. What exactly do you *mean* with "quantize
the fields"?
In fact, most physicists would argue that this *is* indeed done in
Quantum Field Theory!
Bye,
Bjoern
.
User: "flames"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 23 Aug 2005 03:39:13 AM
Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote:

flames wrote:

Physics said the energy levels of fields are quantized
as in photons but the field itself is not quantized.
What would happen if you quantize the fields too?


Please be specific. What exactly do you *mean* with "quantize
the fields"?

In fact, most physicists would argue that this *is* indeed done in
Quantum Field Theory!


Bye,
Bjoern

A mathematical 'genius' called Dr. Fleming has spent over
30 years (that is.. he started the study even before
you were born) researching about Quantum Field Theory, QCD,
QM, etc. He finally understood how they were 'wrong' and
will publish the 'corrected' enhanced version in Physics
Essays to stun the world of physics. He explained it thus
(has your lab informed you about it in advanced already?):
The terminology of quantum field theory (QFT) is misleading; the
'field' referred to is not a field, not the measureable kind of
E- or H-field at any rate, but it is defined as a field while in
reality related to classical 4-potentials, i.e. voltages. When
compared to SFT, a true 'field' theory, we need to examine what a
field is at the atomic level compared to dipole and coil
measurements. It is instructive to survey the main equations used
by physic ists since Maxwell's equations
<http://scienceworld.wolfr am.com/physics/MaxwellEquations.html>
were formulated in 1873. They describe the macroscopic E- and
H-fields, and their associated charges and currents measured in
experiments by Coulomb, Faraday, Ampere, Biot, and Savart from
1785 onwards. Several EM wave equations
<http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/emwv.html> were
derived including decoupled forms where the E- or H-fields appear
in isolation; Maxwell's equations were specialized to various
applications <http://hyp ertextbook.com/physics/elec
tricity/em-waves/> e.g. for quasistationary or radiation
conditions. Hertz
<http://dibinst.mit.edu/DIBNER/DIConferences/OldConferences/Sloan/reflecti.htm>'s
potentials <http://www.andrijar.com/phipps/> introduced a
mixed-field substitution in terms of a Lagrangian or energy
density for solving via integrals over radiation surfaces where
infinite regions needed to be considered; these are known as the
Hertzian vector and scalar potential wave equations.
Following theoretical and experimental demonstrations by Planck
and Einstein of the existence of a quantum physics, there was a
failure by physicists to find a mathematics based directly on
Maxwell's equations that applied to the electron's motion in the
atom. In 1926 Schr"dinger
<http://www.missioncollege.org/depts/physics/P4poe/P4D/Schrodinger.htm>
used energy conservation to obtain a quantum mechanical equation
in a variable called the wave function that accurately described
single-electron states such a s the hydrogen atom. The wave
function depended on a Hamiltonian function and the total energy
of an atomic system, and was compatible with Hertz's potential
formulation. The wave function depends on the sum of the squares
of E- and H-fields as is seen by examining the energy density
function of the electromagnetic field
<http://patsy.hunter.cuny.edu/CORE/CORE4/LectureNotes/Mwaves/magwaves3.htm>.
In 1928 Dirac realising the wave functions were not relativistic
sought a set of e quations incorporating Einstei n's relativity.
Dirac's equations
<http://www.physics.orst.edu/~allenlw/Ph65456/Media/PDFs/QM656.24.Dirac(3).pdf>
were described in terms of two 'fields', the so-called Dirac
fields, and were described as 'field equations of motion'. The
term "Dirac's two wave equations" was also used. Like
Schr"dinger's equation, there was a mathematical smearing of the
SFT fields as we shall see. The problem was now 'wave-like'
instead of two uncluttered fields and Heisenbe rg formulated the
uncertainty principle
<http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/208/jan27/hup.html>. The
underlying SFT centre-of-motion fields had been lost in the
potential equations. By the time the equations governing the weak
and strong nuclear forces were found using modern versions of
QFT, quantum electrodynamics (QED) and quantum chromodynamics
(QCD), any fields, macroscopic or atomic, were a long-forgotten
reality.
But why can't the potentials give us a correct picture of the E-
and H-fields at atomic levels? After all we have Hertz's
potential equations that give a correspondence between classical
potentials and fields? The question is: do Maxwell's E- and
H-fields determined between point-charges exist within the
nanoscopic domain of the atom? Recently it has been demonstrated
by EMSFT for the hydrogen atom
<http://www.unifiedphysics.com/UP_EM_self_fields_all_in_one_revb_Nov_08_04.pdf>
that these E- and H-field form s are not applicable to sub-atomic
charges. Why? The analytic solutions obtained from EMSFT for the
hydrogen atom are validated by the known spectroscopy where we
determine the atomic fields between centres of motion and not
between charge points. This issue is at the crux of why classical
vector and scalar potentials cannot obtain the correct solution;
the macroscopic fields of Coulomb and Biot-Savart do not hold at
atomic dimensions; the fields caused by the motions of the p
hotons inside the atom are not correctly formulated point-charge
to point-charge. The classical potentials cannot give us the
correct answer, because the classical field theory as we have
long known is wrong. The potential solution was in a sense
chasing its tail; the classical fields and potentials are
incorrect over atomic dimensions as Heisenberg had correctly
determined. Reality wasn't in error; but classical field theory
was and thus also quantum field theory. Coulomb's, and Biot's and
Savart's famous E- and H-field forms apply to m acroscopic
phenomena not to atomic systems. The photons inside atoms in fact
stream between electrons and nucleons. These photonic streams are
not ubiquitous nor continuous, they are discrete and
discontinuous. They behave like Dirac delta functions
<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/DeltaFunction.html>, an interesting
fact in terms of their role in solving Maxwell's equations for
self fields (see below on numerical methods FEM vs FDM).
Another term needs clarification: spinor. In Dirac's formulation
the resulting complex matrices were capable of synthesis into
various Dirac "bispinors". These are adjointly coupled 2 x 2
'unit' spinors (determinant = 1) that have a left- or
right-handed helicity associated with them. In the chiral
representation of Dirac's equation, the terms are 4 x 4 matrices
comprised of Pauli spinors. In SFT, the term 'spinor' is used for
the motions of the E- and H-fields, and for the motions of the
particles, such as the electron or proton. Everything in the
mathematics of SFT, both particles and their (particulate)
fields, move as rotating vectors; like QFT for the atom there are
two spinors, or four variables per subatomic particle. In the
following, the terms 'wave equation' and 'vector and scalar
potentials' are applied to all quantum field theories that follow
the heritage of Dirac's wave equations up to and including
today's standard model. In this aspect SFT is indeed the only
true 'field' theory, not only because it uses the term 'field' in
an historically correct sense but further it applies these fields
not between charge points, but (instantaneous) centres of motion.
MATHEMATICS OF SFT AND QFT
The mathematics of self-field theory (SFT) and quantum field
theory (QFT) are very different. In SFT the eigenvalue nature of
the hydrogen atom system of equations fits the concept of a
quantized physics; in QFT it is mandated apriori as part of
quantum mechanics. Hence in SFT quantization is a consquence of
the mathematics and in QFT it is an artifice, inserted by Planck
to solve the analytic problem of blackbody radiation. The fields
in SFT are seen as streams of discrete photon interchanges
between atomi c sub-particles; in QFT the fields are considered
continuous and ubiquitous, operating over all solid angles,
similar to the classical fields of the macroscopic world
discovered by Coulomb and Biot-Savart. Feynmann glimpsed the
physics of the quantum world without realising the difficulties
presented by the potential theory associated with the classical
wave equations, the basis of the Standard Model. In today's QCD,
the wave functions are modelled by lattices instead of continuous
functions < http://en.wiki pedia.org/wiki/QCD_lattice_model> and
so are discrete in a numerical sense. But in its analytic
eigenvalue solutions to the hydrogen atom, SFT provides a natural
basis for quantum physics. Differences between SFT and QFT are
fundamental as to how we view quantum physics; either as a
'strange, bizarre' world at the tiny atomic and nuclear
dimensions, or a natural view fitting the long-term mathematical
framework built up over preceding centuries and millenia
<http://www-groups.dcs. st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistT
opics/Matrices_and_determinants.html>. The Sturm-Liouville
problem
<http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Sturm.html>,
an eigenvalue problem in 2nd order odes, was solved in 1836-37.
As stated <http://www.unifiedphysics.com/index.htm>, an analogy
exists between QFT and SFT via two numerical techniques: the
finite element method (FEM)
<http://csep1.phy.ornl.gov/bf/node8.html> and finite difference
method (FDM) <http://csep1.phy.ornl.gov/bf/node7.html>. While
both are primarily numerica they contain the essence of an
analytic comparison between QFT and SFT. Both are used to solving
partial differential equations, such as the inhomogenous wave
equation (1) <http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/tea
ching/jk1/lectures/node19.html>, (2)
<http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~gerlach/math/BVtypset/node24.html>
or Maxwell's equations for the self-fields
<http://www.unifiedphysics.com/UP_EM_self_fields_all_in_one_revb_Nov_08_04.pdf>.
The major difference between these analytic formulations lies in
the integrals associated with the scalar and vector potentials of
QFT compared with the direct substitution for the E- and H-field
forms into the partial differential equa tions by SFT. In QFT we
do in fact require some form of numerical method to solve the
wave equations. In SFT the direct spinorial subsitution is
suffice to produce a solvable system of equations; no numerical
methods are necessary, only a system of spinorial equations needs
to be solved via linear algebra techniques. Although the
inhomogeneous wave equation appears to be a reduced set of
equations compared with Maxwell's equations, two equations rather
than four, the necessary constraints upon the gauge condition
mean that the ve ctor substitutions in se tting up the potentials
lead to complications later on in the analytic solution. The
analytic difficulties of the wave equation are exacerbated by the
second order of the two wave equations and their associated gauge
conditions compared with the four first order Maxwell equations.
Of course the self-field solution has only been available for the
past few years. The vector and scalar potential solution
incoprorated inside quantum mechanics was the only method known
to solve non-radiating atomic systems. The self-field requires
the special boundary condition that it be confined within a
finite region of space without radiation out to infinity. This is
not a closed or bounded problem such as a waveguide. Rather it is
an open problem, akin to a non-radiating antenna, somewhat a
semantic tortology. Yet there is such an antenna. We can arrange
for the (two) feeds on an antenna to provide no nett radiation.
It isn't very practical in terms of radiation, but it may well be
of practical use as a means of preventing radiation leaking into
regions where it is not desired. Thus the groups known as SU(2)
and SU(3) and their space-time inverses are candidate solution
forms for the self-fields due to wave equations and
'Maxwell-like' equations. Such forms are well known to
mathematicians, sc ientists, and engineers seeking general
solutions to sets of homogeneous partial differential equations
<http://kr.cs.ait.ac.th/~radok/math/mat10/start.htm>. As we
should expect, the spinors of SFT are closely related to the
groups within QCD, and QED. In fact apart from the fact that QCD
and QED use such exponential forms as unit 'bispinors' and
'trispinors', and have a variable magnitude within SFT, there is
no difference. We shall see that there is a family of
'Maxwell-like' equations for both electromagnetic (EM ) and other
fields that give rise to weak and strong nuclear forces. The
self-field solution is indeed a novel mathematical solution that
allows 'dirac delta' particles to move in a field (consisting of
tiny 'dirac delta' particles) such that they do not emit
radiation (no photons escape into he outside world).
In comparing the numbers of unknown variables in QFT and SFT, we
first must specify the application. In atomic physics, there are
in quantum electrodynamics (QED) the vector and scalar
potentials, four per particle altogether. In SFT there are also
four variables per particle, consisting of two spinors, a radius
and a frequency for each spinor. In SFT after specifying the
fields using the two divergence equations, the remaining two
Maxwell curl equations provide only three scalar equations; we
need a fourth equation per particle. This is supplied for the
case of the atomic EM self-fields as a balance of the Lorentz
forces between any two charged particles and this converts into a
pair of virial equations where the magnetic and electric forces
are in dynamic balance. Note that the four variables per particle
within QED, the potential and vector potentials, require
conversion to the E- and H-fields post-solution ( Electromagnetic
Analysis System EMAS
<http://www.diel.univaq.it/research/?id_area=10 &id_subarea=43 >
for example does this for the EM fields having solved for the
potentials).
In nuclear physics, the strong nuclear interaction requires the
mathematics of QCD to solve for particle states. Like QED, the
solution is given as a probability density. These solutions are
governed by the uncertainty principle. We can view the
uncertainty principle as nothing more than a criterion of
accuracy due to the quantum mechanical method of solution and
that classical fields are used at atomic dimensions. Part of the
procedure of QFT is a 'coupling' of the centre-of-motion field
variables that are decoupled in Maxwell's classical equations.
This 'smears' the field solution; the centre-of-motion E- and
H-fields being intertwined numerically. So with high-energy
physics, as with QED, the probability densities are as good as we
can get; our 'observables' are unable to untangle the true atomic
fields. As with QED, the computations require lengthy 'random
walk' simulations on large supercomputers. A discretized version
of QCD suitable for numerical calculations is called Lattice QCD
<h ttp://www.unifiedph
ysics.com/The%20discretized%20version%20of%20QCD%20is%20called%20Lattice%20QCD.>.
This lattice numerically seeks the energy profile that constrains
our equations to obey the known laws governing them including
gauge symmetries that apply.
"It took nearly a year to do the calculations, but when the
computer finally disgorged the numbers, physicists had for the
first time extracted from theory predictions of the ratios of the
masses of eight subatomic particles. These computed,
theoretically derived ratios differ from experimentally observed
values by less than 6 percent." Ivars Peterson
<http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/q1/quantumch.asp> In SFT we do
NOT assume anything apart from the spinorial (rotating vector)
forms for the motion of the fields; the positions and velocities
of the interacting photons also have the shape of a spinor
(rotating vector). These periodically rotating fields are assumed
since the solution must be a self-field and self-propagating. The
fields in SFT cause the motions of the particles which in turn
cause the field motions; any two particles and their interacting
fields are thus joined 'at the hip' so to speak. The
(mathematical) trick is to suggest a field form suitable for the
observed forces. In strong nuclear SFT it is observed to be six
variables or 'flavours' of quark: up, down, charm, strange, top
and bottom; while the gluon fields have three 'colours': red,
green, and blue. It is found that the six variables are
consistent with there being three spinorial motions per
sub-nuclear particle, and not two as with the EM forces, while
there are now three types of interactions possible correlating to
the two types of elemental charge, positive and negative,
associated with the EM forces.
DIRAC DELTA FUNCTIONS
One final point: the mathematical procedures of SFT can be
applied as a form of potential theory that incorporates the
centre of motion fields; a modern form of quantum field theory
that in principle goes 'beyond quantum'. As we already have a
simpler solution procedure this method's day has not yet arrived,
but indubitably it will come in due time.
.
User: "Y.Porat"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 23 Aug 2005 09:38:06 AM
Thank you for your detailed answer
yet there is one thing i dont agree
it is
your description as if photons are crating any fields!!
because photons move in straight lines
there fore such explanation using photons is dead by arrival
now to the question id fields are quantized
i have a simple experiment that we did at school
not any basic experiment is ' a primitive argument'
so as we all remember the experiment goes like that :
you take a magnet
put on it a sheet of paper (not a ***** of paper (:-)
and spread on it iron powder
and what do we get?
we see concentrated curved 'force lines.
(i don t know why but those curved force lines
remind me the Circlon......)
so IMHO it is a prove that fields are quantized.
ATB
Y.Porat
----------------------
.

User: ""

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 23 Aug 2005 05:27:30 AM
This is *yet again* you, Qion etc., right?
flames wrote:
[snip]

A mathematical 'genius' called Dr. Fleming

Who says that he is a mathematical genius?
And what field is his doctorate in? What are his qualifications
to talk about physics?

has spent over
30 years (that is.. he started the study even before
you were born) researching about Quantum Field Theory, QCD,
QM, etc. He finally understood how they were 'wrong' and
will publish the 'corrected' enhanced version in Physics
Essays to stun the world of physics.

If he writes nonsense like the one below, he won't be able to
get this published.

He explained it thus
(has your lab informed you about it in advanced already?):

The terminology of quantum field theory (QFT) is misleading; the
'field' referred to is not a field, not the measureable kind of
E- or H-field at any rate, but it is defined as a field while in
reality related to classical 4-potentials, i.e. voltages.

Wow. Nonsense already in the very first sentence. A hint to Dr.
Fleming: potentials are also fields. He should learn what "field"
actually means in physics before claiming that QFT is wrong!
BTW: voltages are generally understood to be potential *differences*,
not the potentials themselves. Additionally, one usually only talks
about voltage when referring to the *scalar* potential, not to the
4-potential.

When compared to SFT, a true 'field' theory, we need to examine what a
field is at the atomic level compared to dipole and coil
measurements.

Word salad.

It is instructive to survey the main equations used
by physicists since Maxwell's equations
<http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/MaxwellEquations.html>
were formulated in 1873. They describe the macroscopic E- and
H-fields, and their associated charges and currents measured in
experiments by Coulomb, Faraday, Ampere, Biot, and Savart from
1785 onwards. Several EM wave equations
<http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/emwv.html> were
derived including decoupled forms where the E- or H-fields appear
in isolation; Maxwell's equations were specialized to various
applications <http://hypertextbook.com/physics/elec
tricity/em-waves/> e.g. for quasistationary or radiation
conditions. Hertz
<http://dibinst.mit.edu/DIBNER/DIConferences/OldConferences/Sloan/reflecti.htm>'s
potentials <http://www.andrijar.com/phipps/> introduced a
mixed-field substitution in terms of a Lagrangian or energy
density for solving via integrals over radiation surfaces where
infinite regions needed to be considered; these are known as the
Hertzian vector and scalar potential wave equations.

Indeed. What Dr. Fleming seems to miss is stuff like the Aharonov-Bohm
effect, which can only properly be understood by using the potentials,
not the E- and H-fields themselves.

Following theoretical and experimental demonstrations by Planck
and Einstein of the existence of a quantum physics,

Ouch. In principle right, but so awkwardly expressed that it hurts.
This Dr. Fleming is not a physicist, right? Looking up his website (see
below), he has a PhD in "computational bioelectromagnetics". Why he
thinks this makes him qualified to talk about quantum physics is beyond
me.

there was a
failure by physicists to find a mathematics based directly on
Maxwell's equations that applied to the electron's motion in the
atom. In 1926 Schr"dinger
<http://www.missioncollege.org/depts/physics/P4poe/P4D/Schrodinger.htm>
used energy conservation to obtain a quantum mechanical equation

Only vaguely right. Actually, the Schroedinger equation has not so much
to do with the *conservation* of energy. More with simply writing
down the equation *describing* the energy of the electron and applying
de Broglie's ideas to this equation, leading to a dispersion relation
for a wave, and subsequently to a differential equation describing that
wave.

in a variable called the wave function

Calling the wave function the "variable" of the Schroedinger equation
is yet again quite strange terminology.

that accurately described
single-electron states such as the hydrogen atom. The wave
function depended on a Hamiltonian function

Actually, a Hamilton *operator*. And "depend on" is yet again strange
terminology here.

and the total energy of an atomic system,

Duh. The Hamiltonian *is* the total energy, so why does he feel the
need to mention this separately?

and was compatible with Hertz's potential formulation.

Huh?

The wave function depends on the sum of the squares
of E- and H-fields as is seen by examining the energy density
function of the electromagnetic field
<http://patsy.hunter.cuny.edu/CORE/CORE4/LectureNotes/Mwaves/magwaves3.htm>.

Huh????? That is the energy density of the electromagnetic field,
right. What what on earth does this have to do with the wave function
of the H atom, in Dr. Fleming's opinion???
Yes, he *definitely* has no clue what he is talking about!

In 1928 Dirac realising the wave functions were not relativistic

Duh. Even Schroedinger realised this already.

sought a set of equations incorporating Einstein's relativity.

This was already achieved by the Klein-Gordon equation. So Dr. Fleming
also has no clue of the historical development, and what Dirac's
achievement really was.

Dirac's equations
<http://www.physics.orst.edu/~allenlw/Ph65456/Media/PDFs/QM656.24.Dirac(3).pdf>
were described in terms of two 'fields', the so-called Dirac
fields, and were described as 'field equations of motion'.

As were already lots of equations in the decades before. Dr. Fleming's
point is here exactly what?

The term "Dirac's two wave equations" was also used. Like
Schr"dinger's equation, there was a mathematical smearing of the
SFT fields as we shall see.

What is "mathematical smearing" supposed to mean?

The problem was now 'wave-like'

Huh???

instead of two uncluttered fields

Huh???
Is Dr. Fleming unaware that a wave *is* a (special type of) field?

and Heisenberg formulated the uncertainty principle
<http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/208/jan27/hup.html>. The
underlying SFT centre-of-motion fields had been lost in the
potential equations.

Huh???

By the time the equations governing the weak
and strong nuclear forces were found using modern versions of
QFT, quantum electrodynamics (QED) and quantum chromodynamics
(QCD),

Neither QED nor QCD are about the weak force, and QCD is not about the
strong *nuclear* force.

any fields, macroscopic or atomic, were a long-forgotten
reality.

Utter nonsense.

But why can't the potentials give us a correct picture of the E-
and H-fields at atomic levels? After all we have Hertz's
potential equations that give a correspondence between classical
potentials and fields? The question is: do Maxwell's E- and
H-fields determined between point-charges exist within the
nanoscopic domain of the atom?

Both E- and H-fields and potentials are mathematical descriptions of
reality. If they "exist" or not is not a question of physics, but of
metaphysics.

Recently it has been demonstrated by EMSFT for the hydrogen atom
<http://www.unifiedphysics.com/UP_EM_self_fields_all_in_one_revb_Nov_08_04.pdf>
that these E- and H-field forms are not applicable to sub-atomic
charges.

Oh, finally a link to a page written by this crank.
And as most cranks, he does not understand the difference between
"demonstrated" and "asserted".
Quote: "Despite intensive investigation, this same period saw a
complete failure to find any way in which atomic physics could be based
on electromagnetic (EM) theory."
Hogwash. The Schroedinger equation for the H atom incorporates the
electrostatic potential, hence it *is* based on electromagnetic theory.
Apparently Dr. Fleming thinks that if the E- and H-fields
themselves do not appear, but only the potentials, this somehow means
that it is *not* based on electromagnetic theory! Balderdash.
Another quote: "In this paper an EM self-field theory (EMSFT) yields
analytical solutions to the electron's motion in the hydrogen atom
including Rydberg's number and the Balmer formula."
Since there is abundant evidence that the electron does *not* move on a
classical orbit in the atom, EMSFT is already disproven by experiment.

Why? The analytic solutions obtained from EMSFT for the
hydrogen atom are validated by the known spectroscopy where we
determine the atomic fields between centres of motion and not
between charge points.

Word salad.

This issue is at the crux of why classical
vector and scalar potentials cannot obtain the correct solution;
the macroscopic fields of Coulomb and Biot-Savart do not hold at
atomic dimensions;

What on earth has the first part of the sentence to do with the second,
and what on earth has this to do with atomic physics?

the fields caused by the motions of the photons
inside the atom

Huh?????

are not correctly formulated point-charge
to point-charge. The classical potentials cannot give us the
correct answer, because the classical field theory as we have
long known is wrong.

Duh. That's why we have QED now!

The potential solution was in a sense
chasing its tail; the classical fields and potentials are
incorrect over atomic dimensions as Heisenberg had correctly
determined.

A misrepresentation of what Heisenberg actually said.

Coulomb's, and Biot's and
Savart's famous E- and H-field forms apply to macroscopic
phenomena not to atomic systems.

Unsupported assertion.
And I don't know what he means with "forms" here.

The photons inside atoms in fact
stream between electrons and nucleons. These photonic streams are
not ubiquitous nor continuous, they are discrete and
discontinuous.

This is not too much different from what QED says.

They behave like Dirac delta functions
<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/DeltaFunction.html>,

In what way do they "behave like Dirac delta functions"?

an interesting
fact in terms of their role in solving Maxwell's equations for
self fields (see below on numerical methods FEM vs FDM).

Another term needs clarification: spinor.

This term has a clear definition, so why does it need clarification?
Because Dr. Fleming does not like the definition and prefers to make up
his own, right?

In Dirac's formulation
the resulting complex matrices were capable of synthesis into
various Dirac "bispinors".

Again, a *very* strange formulation.

These are adjointly coupled 2 x 2
'unit' spinors (determinant = 1)

Huh??? A spinor does not have a determinant!

that have a left- or
right-handed helicity associated with them. In the chiral
representation of Dirac's equation, the terms are 4 x 4 matrices
comprised of Pauli spinors.

Balderdash. The spinors are 4-tuples, not 4 x 4 matrices!

In SFT, the term 'spinor' is used for
the motions of the E- and H-fields,

See? Exactly as I predicted.
As usual for cranks, he uses a well-defined term with a *complete*
different, totally nonsensical meaning.
"motions of the E- and H-fields"? That makes no sense! Fields don't
move!!! Again, he demonstrates that the does not know what "field"
actually means in physics.

and for the motions of the
particles, such as the electron or proton. Everything in the
mathematics of SFT, both particles and their (particulate)
fields, move as rotating vectors;

Word salad.

like QFT for the atom there are two spinors,
or four variables per subatomic particle.

That has little to do with QFT.

In the
following, the terms 'wave equation' and 'vector and scalar
potentials' are applied to all quantum field theories that follow
the heritage of Dirac's wave equations up to and including
today's standard model. In this aspect SFT is indeed the only
true 'field' theory, not only because it uses the term 'field' in
an historically correct sense

Balderdash.

but further it applies these fields
not between charge points, but (instantaneous) centres of motion.

Word salad.

MATHEMATICS OF SFT AND QFT

The mathematics of self-field theory (SFT) and quantum field
theory (QFT) are very different.

Duh.

In SFT the eigenvalue nature of
the hydrogen atom system of equations fits the concept of a
quantized physics; in QFT it is mandated apriori as part of
quantum mechanics.

Word salad.

Hence in SFT quantization is a consquence of
the mathematics and in QFT it is an artifice, inserted by Planck
to solve the analytic problem of blackbody radiation.

Plain utter *nonsense*. Quantization in QFT is *not* simply inserted
artificially; it follows mathematically from the basic commutation
relations.

The fields
in SFT are seen as streams of discrete photon interchanges
between atomic sub-particles; in QFT the fields are considered
continuous and ubiquitous, operating over all solid angles,
similar to the classical fields of the macroscopic world
discovered by Coulomb and Biot-Savart.

Actually, the QFT description is somehow intermediate between the QFT
description he claims here and the SFT description he describes.

Feynmann glimpsed the
physics of the quantum world without realising the difficulties
presented by the potential theory associated with the classical
wave equations, the basis of the Standard Model. In today's QCD,
the wave functions are modelled by lattices instead of continuous
functions <http://en.wiki pedia.org/wiki/QCD_lattice_model>
and so are discrete in a numerical sense.

Wow. What a nonsense. So he also has not the faintest clue of what
lattice QCD actually is, and why and for what purposes it is actually
used in many applications.

But in its analytic
eigenvalue solutions to the hydrogen atom, SFT provides a natural
basis for quantum physics. Differences between SFT and QFT are
fundamental as to how we view quantum physics; either as a
'strange, bizarre' world at the tiny atomic and nuclear
dimensions, or a natural view fitting the long-term mathematical
framework built up over preceding centuries and millenia
<http://www-groups.dcs st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistT
opics/Matrices_and_determinants.html>. The Sturm-Liouville
problem
<http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Sturm.html>,
an eigenvalue problem in 2nd order odes, was solved in 1836-37.

And the relevance of that is precisely what?
[snip a bit]

The major difference between these analytic formulations lies in
the integrals associated with the scalar and vector potentials of
QFT

Huh? What integrals is he talking about?

compared with the direct substitution for the E- and H-field
forms into the partial differential equations by SFT. In QFT we
do in fact require some form of numerical method to solve the
wave equations.

In QFT, no wave equations are solved in general. What is he talking
about?

The
analytic difficulties of the wave equation are exacerbated by the
second order of the two wave equations and their associated gauge
conditions compared with the four first order Maxwell equations.

Of course the self-field solution has only been available for the
past few years.

Well, if it existed for several years already, why has no physicist
accepted it in the meantime? Why wasn't this big news?

The vector and scalar potential solution
incoprorated inside quantum mechanics was the only method known
to solve non-radiating atomic systems. The self-field requires
the special boundary condition that it be confined within a
finite region of space without radiation out to infinity.

What is "it" here?

This is
not a closed or bounded problem such as a waveguide. Rather it is
an open problem, akin to a non-radiating antenna, somewhat a
semantic tortology. Yet there is such an antenna. We can arrange
for the (two) feeds on an antenna to provide no net radiation.
It isn't very practical in terms of radiation, but it may well be
of practical use as a means of preventing radiation leaking into
regions where it is not desired. Thus the groups known as SU(2)
and SU(3) and their space-time inverses re candidate solution
forms for the self-fields due to wave equations and
'Maxwell-like' equations.

Totally nonsensical word salad.
What on earth is "their space-time inverses" supposed to mean?
And what on earth do these groups have to do with "preventing
radiation"???

Such forms are well known to
mathematicians, scientists, and engineers seeking general
solutions to sets of homogeneous partial differential equations
<http://kr.cs.ait.ac.th/~radok/math/mat10/start.htm>.

Again: "forms"?

As we
should expect, the spinors of SFT are closely related to the
groups within QCD, and QED. In fact apart from the fact that QCD
and QED use such exponential forms

"exponential forms"???

as unit 'bispinors' and 'trispinors',

???
Does he perhaps mean dublets and triplets???

and have a variable magnitude within SFT,

?????

there is
no difference. We shall see that there is a family of
'Maxwell-like' equations for both electromagnetic (EM) and other
fields that give rise to weak and strong nuclear forces.

He is free to explain all the available evidence for QCD and the
electroweak force using these equations...

The
self-field solution is indeed a novel mathematical solution that
allows 'dirac delta' particles to move in a field (consisting of
tiny 'dirac delta' particles) such that they do not emit
radiation (no photons escape into he outside world).

Then this "self-field solution" contradicts Maxwell's equations,
although he claims it is based on them.

In comparing the numbers of unknown variables in QFT and SFT, we
first must specify the application. In atomic physics, there are
in quantum electrodynamics (QED) the vector and scalar
potentials, four per particle altogether.

Calling these "unknown variables" is yet again strange terminology.
And why he thinks that these potentials have to be counted "per
particle" is beyond me.

In SFT after specifying the
fields using the two divergence equations,

Huh? A divergence equation does not uniquely specify a field.

the remaining two
Maxwell curl equations provide only three scalar equations;

???

we need a fourth equation per particle. This is supplied for the
case of the atomic EM self-fields as a balance of the Lorentz
forces between any two charged particles and this converts into a
pair of virial equations where the magnetic and electric forces
are in dynamic balance. Note that the four variables per particle
within QED, the potential and vector potentials, require
conversion to the E- and H-fields post-solution (Electromagnetic
Analysis System EMAS
<http://www.diel.univaq.it/research/?id_area=10 &id_subarea=43 >
for example does this for the EM fields having solved for the
potentials).

Word salad.

In nuclear physics, the strong nuclear interaction requires the
mathematics of QCD to solve for particle states.

Word salad. And yet again, he confuses QCD with the *nuclear* strong
force.

Like QED, the solution is given as a probability density.

Vaguely right.

These solutions are governed by the uncertainty principle.

Vaguely right.

We can view the
uncertainty principle as nothing more than a criterion of
accuracy due to the quantum mechanical method of solution and
that classical fields are used at atomic dimensions.

Balderdash. He should read up on Bell's inequality.

Part of the
procedure of QFT is a 'coupling' of the centre-of-motion field
variables that are decoupled in Maxwell's classical equations.

???

This 'smears' the field solution; the centre-of-motion E- and
H-fields being intertwined numerically.

Centre of motion of fields??? Utter nonsense.

So with high-energy
physics, as with QED, the probability densities are as good as we
can get;

Wrong, we can get a lot more things.

our 'observables' are unable to untangle the true atomic
fields.

Balderdash.

As with QED, the computations require lengthy 'random
walk' simulations on large supercomputers.

In some applications, yes. In a lot of others, wrong.

A discretized version
of QCD suitable for numerical calculations is called Lattice QCD
<h ttp://www.unifiedph
ysics.com/The%20discretized%20version%20of%20QCD%20is%20called%20Lattice%20QCD.>.
This lattice numerically seeks the energy profile that constrains
our equations to obey the known laws governing them including
gauge symmetries that apply.

Ouch. Yet again, a totally nonsensical formulation.

"It took nearly a year to do the calculations, but when the
computer finally disgorged the numbers, physicists had for the
first time extracted from theory predictions of the ratios of the
masses of eight subatomic particles. These computed,
theoretically derived ratios differ from experimentally observed
values by less than 6 percent." Ivars Peterson
<http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/q1/quantumch.asp>

And how does Dr. Fleming explains this success, if QCD is wrong?
Is he able to do this, too? I sincerely doubt that.

In SFT we do
NOT assume anything apart from the spinorial (rotating vector)
forms for the motion of the fields; the positions and velocities
of the interacting photons also have the shape of a spinor
(rotating vector). These periodically rotating fields are assumed
since the solution must be a self-field and self-propagating.
The fields in SFT cause the motions of the particles which in turn
cause the field motions; any two particles and their interacting
fields are thus joined 'at the hip' so to speak. The
(mathematical) trick is to suggest a field form suitable for the
observed forces.

Word salad.

In strong nuclear SFT it is observed to be six
variables or 'flavours' of quark: up, down, charm, strange, top
and bottom; while the gluon fields have three 'colours': red,
green, and blue.

Wow, what a nonsense. He is free to explain confinement, breaking of
Bjorken scaling, three-jet events etc. based on this.

It is found that the six variables are
consistent with there being three spinorial motions per
sub-nuclear particle, and not two as with the EM forces, while
there are now three types of interactions possible correlating to
the two types of elemental charge, positive and negative,
associated with the EM forces.

Word salad.

DIRAC DELTA FUNCTIONS

One final point: the mathematical procedures of SFT can be
applied as a form of potential theory that incorporates the
centre of motion fields; a modern form of quantum field theory
that in principle goes 'beyond quantum'. As we already have a
simpler solution procedure this method's day has not yet arrived,
but indubitably it will come in due time.

Word salad.
Bye,
Bjoern
.
User: "Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 23 Aug 2005 05:31:31 AM
wrote:

"motions of the E- and H-fields"? That makes no sense! Fields don't
move!!! Again, he demonstrates that the does not know what "field"
actually means in physics.

Coming from someone who failed like a school-boy to understand that R^2
is a field shows that it takes one to know one.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: why can't fields be quantized too? 23 Aug 2005 06:07:04 AM