Science > Physics > Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time?
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Science > Physics |
| User: |
"brad" |
| Date: |
12 Jan 2006 06:52:23 PM |
| Object: |
Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
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| User: "Greg Neill" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
12 Jan 2006 07:04:50 PM |
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"brad" <sjtjohnson2004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137113543.059018.203610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
It largely depends upon what exactly you mean by "things".
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| User: "Maulana Gott" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
12 Jan 2006 08:13:27 PM |
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"brad" <sjtjohnson2004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137113543.059018.203610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
They can, salt and water.
Mercury and aluminum.
the list goes on and on........
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| User: "brad" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
12 Jan 2006 08:25:46 PM |
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to mark martin re: bosons . please explain further thank you.
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 09:18:10 AM |
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In article <1137113543.059018.203610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
brad <sjtjohnson2004@yahoo.com> wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
But what about two liquids that dissolve into each other, like alcohal
and water? They occupy the same place at the same time, unless you look
at individual molecules.
A beer can on the table has the same explanation as individual molecules--
electrostatic repulsion between nuclei when you bring them close together.
But when you get small enough to go quantum, the notion of position gets
fuzzy. For instance, in the hydrogen atom the electron has the highest
density right in the middle where the proton is. And why not? Opposite
charges attract, so there's no repulsion to push them away. A proton and
an electron can occupy the same space at the same time. The two electrons
in a helium atom repel each other, but they're both attracted by the +2e
charge of the nucleus, and their positions are highly overlapping.
Like Neill said, it depends on what a "thing" is.
--
"Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were a member of
Congress... But I repeat myself." - Mark Twain
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| User: "Traveler" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 10:21:41 AM |
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On 12 Jan 2006 16:52:23 -0800, "brad" <sjtjohnson2004@yahoo.com>
wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
You're mistaken. Particles ocupy the same position all the time. How
do you think two particles (e.g., a photon and an electron) interact?
By telepathy? The idea that two particles cannot occupy the same
position is a clasical idea that originates from macroscopic
observations. It is not true at the micro level.
Having said that, you must also realize that size is an illusion of
perception. Size, distance, space, etc... are abstract concepts. They
don't exist physically.
More Nasty Little Truths About Physics:
http://www.rebelscience.org/Crackpots/nasty.htm
Caveat: Not your dad's physics.
Louis Savain
Why Software Is Bad and What We Can Do to Fix It:
http://www.rebelscience.org/Cosas/Reliability.htm
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| User: "Schoenfeld" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 12:17:46 PM |
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Traveler wrote:
On 12 Jan 2006 16:52:23 -0800, "brad" <sjtjohnson2004@yahoo.com>
wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
You're mistaken. Particles ocupy the same position all the time. How
do you think two particles (e.g., a photon and an electron) interact?
By telepathy? The idea that two particles cannot occupy the same
position is a clasical idea that originates from macroscopic
observations. It is not true at the micro level.
The probability that two points collide is 0.
Having said that, you must also realize that size is an illusion of
perception. Size, distance, space, etc... are abstract concepts. They
don't exist physically.
More Nasty Little Truths About Physics:
http://www.rebelscience.org/Crackpots/nasty.htm
Caveat: Not your dad's physics.
Louis Savain
Why Software Is Bad and What We Can Do to Fix It:
http://www.rebelscience.org/Cosas/Reliability.htm
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| User: "Traveler" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
14 Jan 2006 01:33:06 PM |
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On 13 Jan 2006 10:17:46 -0800, "Schoenfeld" <schoenfeld1@gmail.com>
wrote:
Traveler wrote:
On 12 Jan 2006 16:52:23 -0800, "brad" <sjtjohnson2004@yahoo.com>
wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
You're mistaken. Particles ocupy the same position all the time. How
do you think two particles (e.g., a photon and an electron) interact?
By telepathy? The idea that two particles cannot occupy the same
position is a clasical idea that originates from macroscopic
observations. It is not true at the micro level.
The probability that two points collide is 0.
Particles are not points. "No size" is not synonymous with "size = 0"
or "size > 0". Size is simply not a property of anything that exists.
Also, in a discrete universe, particles have discrete position. Two
particles can certainly have equal position. There is no other way for
them to interact, unless they are psychic. I hate superstitious
*****.
Nasty Little Truth About Size:
http://rebelscience.org/Crackpots/nasty.htm#Size
Physics is so much phucking phun! ahahaha...
Louis Savain
Why Software Is Bad and What We Can Do to Fix It:
http://www.rebelscience.org/Cosas/Reliability.htm
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| User: "Schoenfeld" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
14 Jan 2006 09:12:36 PM |
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Traveler wrote:
On 13 Jan 2006 10:17:46 -0800, "Schoenfeld" <schoenfeld1@gmail.com>
wrote:
Traveler wrote:
On 12 Jan 2006 16:52:23 -0800, "brad" <sjtjohnson2004@yahoo.com>
wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
You're mistaken. Particles ocupy the same position all the time. How
do you think two particles (e.g., a photon and an electron) interact?
By telepathy? The idea that two particles cannot occupy the same
position is a clasical idea that originates from macroscopic
observations. It is not true at the micro level.
The probability that two points collide is 0.
Particles are not points. "No size" is not synonymous with "size = 0"
or "size > 0". Size is simply not a property of anything that exists.
I don't know what your model is, but if a particle exists in space it
must have a position in space. The fact that something exists in space
at some position implies that this thing occupies at least some but not
all space, otherwise you could not distinguish it from space itself
(and vice-versa). This leads to notions to it having 'size'. If you
draw a sphere around your 'particle' and find the minimal encapsulating
radius you can start to more precisely define these notions and you're
back to classical-limit theories of physics..
Also, in a discrete universe, particles have discrete position. Two
particles can certainly have equal position.
Sure in a discrete space point particles can collide. But even then if
they have equal position they must differ in at least 1 other property
otherwise you could not distinguish between the two (just like fermions
in QM which can occupy the same space but differ in 'spin').
There is no other way for
them to interact, unless they are psychic. I hate superstitious
*****.
Nasty Little Truth About Size:
http://rebelscience.org/Crackpots/nasty.htm#Size
Physics is so much phucking phun! ahahaha...
Louis Savain
Why Software Is Bad and What We Can Do to Fix It:
http://www.rebelscience.org/Cosas/Reliability.htm
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
12 Jan 2006 08:36:06 PM |
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brad wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
In the case fermions, no two fermions may occupy the same
quantum state. Pauli Exclusion Principle.
Fermions
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Fermion.html
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| User: "Mark Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
12 Jan 2006 07:05:27 PM |
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brad wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
Some things can be at the same place simultaneously. Any two
ordinary waves on the ocean can pass cleanly through each other. Bosons
also do so very commonly. In fact, they not only can be on top of each
other, they also have a strong probablistic tendency to be near each
other.
-Mark Martin
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
12 Jan 2006 07:36:59 PM |
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Mark Martin wrote:
brad wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
Some things can be at the same place simultaneously. Any two
ordinary waves on the ocean can pass cleanly through each other. Bosons
also do so very commonly. In fact, they not only can be on top of each
other, they also have a strong probablistic tendency to be near each
other.
-Mark Martin
You haven't been in a boat then, at that point. The amplitudes ADD (and
can be bloody dangerous).
Do the bosons double in mass/energy ?
Jim G
c'=c+v
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| User: "Mark Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
12 Jan 2006 10:29:37 PM |
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wrote:
Mark Martin wrote:
brad wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
Some things can be at the same place simultaneously. Any two
ordinary waves on the ocean can pass cleanly through each other. Bosons
also do so very commonly. In fact, they not only can be on top of each
other, they also have a strong probablistic tendency to be near each
other.
-Mark Martin
You haven't been in a boat then, at that point. The amplitudes ADD (and
can be bloody dangerous).
What makes you think I have no practical boating experience? As a
matter of fact, my dad used to have a 22 ft sailboat that he & I spent
a great deal of time piloting, including on the Great Lakes, where the
wave heights can be hairy.
Tha fact that wave amplitudes interfere constructively (if they
happen to be in phase) is beside the point. Two or more wave crests
can, in fact, occupy the same location.
Do the bosons double in mass/energy ?
If two identical bosons happen to be superposed at location x, then
there will be two units of that species' mass/energy content at x.
-Mark Martin
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
12 Jan 2006 11:56:56 PM |
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Mark Martin wrote:
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
Mark Martin wrote:
brad wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
Some things can be at the same place simultaneously. Any two
ordinary waves on the ocean can pass cleanly through each other. Bosons
also do so very commonly. In fact, they not only can be on top of each
other, they also have a strong probablistic tendency to be near each
other.
-Mark Martin
You haven't been in a boat then, at that point. The amplitudes ADD (and
can be bloody dangerous).
What makes you think I have no practical boating experience? As a
matter of fact, my dad used to have a 22 ft sailboat that he & I spent
a great deal of time piloting, including on the Great Lakes, where the
wave heights can be hairy.
Tha fact that wave amplitudes interfere constructively (if they
happen to be in phase) is beside the point. Two or more wave crests
can, in fact, occupy the same location.
No. The hairy bit is where the waves cross at angles.
That intersection does NOT remain at the same position; my boat was
twice as high on the crest! (the position (in the space analogy) moved
(in this case, vertically)
Do the bosons double in mass/energy ?
If two identical bosons happen to be superposed at location x, then
there will be two units of that species' mass/energy content at x.
..........If two, why not 200000000?
Jim G
c'=c+v
-Mark Martin
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 03:19:51 AM |
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"Buford, ain't it uh got sumthin ta do wid them electron shells, an uh
how them shells does real vigorous-like repel onest another, so iffen
you tries ta shove one piece uh matter through another them thar
electron shells wont letchya? Ah knows I done got technical here on
ya, but try ta see it in yo Mind's I whilst you brand another little
doaggie thar. Hand me a piece uh Darlene's pee-can
3.14159265358979.... Whoo-whee! To die for!"
"Sounds good, Waldo. Say.....are you dating anyone?????"
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| User: "Mark Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 10:28:09 AM |
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wrote:
No. The hairy bit is where the waves cross at angles.
That intersection does NOT remain at the same position; my boat was
twice as high on the crest! (the position (in the space analogy) moved
(in this case, vertically)
Sure. I didn't say anything to the contrary.
Do the bosons double in mass/energy ?
If two identical bosons happen to be superposed at location x, then
there will be two units of that species' mass/energy content at x.
.........If two, why not 200000000?
Did I say it couldn't be 200000000?
-Mark Martin
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 07:38:32 PM |
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Mark Martin wrote:
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
No. The hairy bit is where the waves cross at angles.
That intersection does NOT remain at the same position; my boat was
twice as high on the crest! (the position (in the space analogy) moved
(in this case, vertically)
Sure. I didn't say anything to the contrary.
Do the bosons double in mass/energy ?
If two identical bosons happen to be superposed at location x, then
there will be two units of that species' mass/energy content at x.
.........If two, why not 200000000?
Did I say it couldn't be 200000000?
Are you paranoid? Did I say that you "did"?
Yes or no? (can they)
Jim G
c'=c+v
-Mark Martin
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| User: "Greg Neill" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 09:33:31 PM |
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"jgreenfield@seol.net.au" <jgreen@seol.net.au> wrote in message
news:1137202712.924738.105980@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Mark Martin wrote:
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
No. The hairy bit is where the waves cross at angles.
That intersection does NOT remain at the same position; my boat was
twice as high on the crest! (the position (in the space analogy) moved
(in this case, vertically)
Sure. I didn't say anything to the contrary.
Do the bosons double in mass/energy ?
If two identical bosons happen to be superposed at location x, then
there will be two units of that species' mass/energy content at x.
.........If two, why not 200000000?
Did I say it couldn't be 200000000?
Are you paranoid? Did I say that you "did"?
Yes or no? (can they)
Jim G
What a maroon.
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| User: "Mark Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 10:52:17 PM |
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Greg Neill wrote:
What a maroon.
Sounds like a novel by Martin Caidin: "Maroon"
-Mark Martin
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
14 Jan 2006 08:30:03 PM |
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So are the baboons able to answer?
If 2 "things" can occupy the same space, can 3 (or more)
Jim G
c'=c+v
PS: A banana for the best answer.
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| User: "Mark Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
14 Jan 2006 08:37:36 PM |
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wrote:
So are the baboons able to answer?
If 2 "things" can occupy the same space, can 3 (or more)
Baboons? Just what is your damn problem, *****? Can't you do some
actual research and find the answer yourself? Yes. In principle,
objects which can occupy a spatial position simultaneously ought to be
able to do so in any number. At this moment light waves from g'zillions
of various sources are all passing through each other in space.
-Mark Martin
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
15 Jan 2006 08:53:55 PM |
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Mark Martin wrote:
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
So are the baboons able to answer?
If 2 "things" can occupy the same space, can 3 (or more)
Baboons? Just what is your damn problem, *****?
Maroon = ?
Can't you do some
actual research and find the answer yourself?
Trivial: Walk into a door. You will find that your nose and the wood
CAN'T occupy the same
space (Position in Space)
Yes. In principle,
objects which can occupy a spatial position simultaneously ought to be
able to do so in any number. At this moment light waves from g'zillions
of various sources are all passing through each other in space.
Well done!
The Big Bang neatly accounted for- ALL the matter (sic things) in the
universe, were occupying the same position in space, right?
Wave = Object is surely philisophical, otherwise you may as well
include such abstracts as "thoughts"
Jim G
c'=c+v
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| User: "Schoenfeld" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 04:11:04 AM |
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Mark Martin wrote:
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
Mark Martin wrote:
brad wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
Some things can be at the same place simultaneously. Any two
ordinary waves on the ocean can pass cleanly through each other. Bosons
also do so very commonly. In fact, they not only can be on top of each
other, they also have a strong probablistic tendency to be near each
other.
-Mark Martin
You haven't been in a boat then, at that point. The amplitudes ADD (and
can be bloody dangerous).
What makes you think I have no practical boating experience? As a
matter of fact, my dad used to have a 22 ft sailboat that he & I spent
a great deal of time piloting, including on the Great Lakes, where the
wave heights can be hairy.
Tha fact that wave amplitudes interfere constructively (if they
happen to be in phase) is beside the point. Two or more wave crests
can, in fact, occupy the same location.
Those waves aren't physical and their superposition is only
mathematical. The underlying medium is physical, and two of such object
cannot be classically superposed.
[...]
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| User: "Mark Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 10:34:43 AM |
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Schoenfeld wrote:
Tha fact that wave amplitudes interfere constructively (if they
happen to be in phase) is beside the point. Two or more wave crests
can, in fact, occupy the same location.
Those waves aren't physical and their superposition is only
mathematical. The underlying medium is physical, and two of such object
cannot be classically superposed.
Perhaps. But the OP asked about co-positional "objects", and I
provided an example of such. I also disagree that their superposition
is *only* mathematical. The addition of amplitudes is clearly
measurable physically.
-Mark Martin
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 09:18:44 AM |
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In article <1137116219.836864.305460@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
jgreenfield@seol.net.au <jgreen@seol.net.au> wrote:
Mark Martin wrote:
brad wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
Some things can be at the same place simultaneously. Any two
ordinary waves on the ocean can pass cleanly through each other. Bosons
also do so very commonly. In fact, they not only can be on top of each
other, they also have a strong probablistic tendency to be near each
other.
-Mark Martin
You haven't been in a boat then, at that point. The amplitudes ADD (and
can be bloody dangerous).
So which wave is on the top, and which wave is on the bottom?
--
"When the fool walks through the street, in his lack of understanding he
calls everything foolish." -- Ecclesiastes 10:3, New American Bible
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 07:35:55 PM |
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Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
In article <1137116219.836864.305460@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
jgreenfield@seol.net.au <jgreen@seol.net.au> wrote:
Mark Martin wrote:
brad wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
Some things can be at the same place simultaneously. Any two
ordinary waves on the ocean can pass cleanly through each other. Bosons
also do so very commonly. In fact, they not only can be on top of each
other, they also have a strong probablistic tendency to be near each
other.
-Mark Martin
You haven't been in a boat then, at that point. The amplitudes ADD (and
can be bloody dangerous).
So which wave is on the top, and which wave is on the bottom?
Are you slightly pregnant?
1000cmeters in one wave, did NOT occupy the 1000 in the other
Jim G
c'=c+v
"a fool thinks 1000+1000=1000"
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| User: "Greg Neill" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 09:36:35 PM |
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"jgreenfield@seol.net.au" <jgreen@seol.net.au> wrote in message
news:1137202555.456530.220050@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
So which wave is on the top, and which wave is on the bottom?
Are you slightly pregnant?
Non sequitur.
1000cmeters in one wave, did NOT occupy the 1000 in the other
"cmeters"?
What *are* you on about? If they did not co-occupy the space,
then, as GH asked, which one was on top?
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| User: "Y.Porat" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 09:49:11 AM |
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waves do not fill all the volume that they seem to occupy
th matter part is only Small portion of that volume:
think about the volume our earth is occupying while orbiting around the
sun
at a certain point of time it is only the volume of the earth
if the earth would move around the sun with the speed of light
it will practically will be able to collide with much more
interfering objects in that orbit
if the interfering object will as well move with the speed of light
than again the chances of collision will reduce to nearly the chances
of the earth to collide with an intruder that moves with the speed of
earth around the sun (:-)
(more complicated than seems at first glance ??)
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
13 Jan 2006 11:49:18 AM |
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brad wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
"Things" happen to be made of atoms -- most of the time.
Atoms happen to be surrounded by electrons -- most of the time.
Electrons are fermions and fermions are known to exhibit this behavior.
PD
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
12 Jan 2006 07:32:47 PM |
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brad wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
No. Actually less complicated.
"Space" is where "things" are NOT.
Thus the whole scenario is an oxymoron
Jim G
c'=c+v
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| User: "Schoenfeld" |
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| Title: Re: Why cant two things occupy the same space at the same time? |
12 Jan 2006 09:15:44 PM |
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brad wrote:
this may be more complicated than it seems at first glance. any ideas
from the cogniscanti?
From a classical context, since there would be _no way_ to distinguish
between the two things they would have to be a single thing which
contradicts your original premise that two separate things existed.
In QM this doesn't necessarily hold, since two fermions can occupy same
position/time so long as they have opposing spin..
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