Science > Physics > why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.???
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Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Bob" |
| Date: |
24 Sep 2004 11:40:34 PM |
| Object: |
why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
Why is it that shorter the wavelength or higher the frequency of the
electromagnetic wave, the wave penetrates deeper and deeper.?
eg. gamma rays penetrates through solid objects, x ray penetrates
through soft tissues but light or radio or microwaves couldn't.
regards,
Bob
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| User: "terry smith" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 01:26:36 PM |
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"Bob" <bob_peterson@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
news:e80b0472.0409242040.524fe78f@posting.google.com...
Why is it that shorter the wavelength or higher the frequency of the
electromagnetic wave, the wave penetrates deeper and deeper.?
eg. gamma rays penetrates through solid objects, x ray penetrates
through soft tissues but light or radio or microwaves couldn't.
Does it not depend if a material can absorb waves of a particular
wave length?
regards,
Bob
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| User: "tadchem" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 07:53:53 AM |
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"Bob" <bob_peterson@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
news:e80b0472.0409242040.524fe78f@posting.google.com...
Why is it that shorter the wavelength or higher the frequency of the
electromagnetic wave, the wave penetrates deeper and deeper.?
eg. gamma rays penetrates through solid objects, x ray penetrates
through soft tissues but light or radio or microwaves couldn't.
Radio waves (centimeters to meters long) pass right through the walls of my
house, but light waves (a few hundred nanometers) do not.
The question is disqualified because it contains a false presumption.
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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| User: "ZZBunker" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 06:33:02 AM |
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(Bob) wrote in message news:<e80b0472.0409242040.524fe78f@posting.google.com>...
Why is it that shorter the wavelength or higher the frequency of the
electromagnetic wave, the wave penetrates deeper and deeper.?
eg. gamma rays penetrates through solid objects, x ray penetrates
through soft tissues but light or radio or microwaves couldn't.
The whole point of QM is that that is not true.
That's classical wave inference. Electrons
have much smaller wavelengths that photons
typically, and sometimes they go around
the photons, instead of hitting them.
And gamma rays hardly ever penetrate solids,
since you usually only find them in plasmas,
rather than solids.
regards,
Bob
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| User: "Harry Conover" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 03:28:00 PM |
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(ZZBunker) wrote in message news:<e4a0829b.0409250333.76fb2130@posting.google.com>...
bob_peterson@rediffmail.com (Bob) wrote in message news:<e80b0472.0409242040.524fe78f@posting.google.com>...
Why is it that shorter the wavelength or higher the frequency of the
electromagnetic wave, the wave penetrates deeper and deeper.?
eg. gamma rays penetrates through solid objects, x ray penetrates
through soft tissues but light or radio or microwaves couldn't.
The whole point of QM is that that is not true.
That's classical wave inference. Electrons
have much smaller wavelengths that photons
typically, and sometimes they go around
the photons, instead of hitting them.
Sorry Bob, that that's a pretty bizarre concept that you will not find
in any QM text. If that is what your QM course taught you, best to
repeat the course!
Harry C.
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| User: "ZZBunker" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
26 Sep 2004 10:05:07 AM |
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(Harry Conover) wrote in message news:<7ce4e226.0409251228.4d93d2ff@posting.google.com>...
zzbunker@netscape.net (ZZBunker) wrote in message news:<e4a0829b.0409250333.76fb2130@posting.google.com>...
bob_peterson@rediffmail.com (Bob) wrote in message news:<e80b0472.0409242040.524fe78f@posting.google.com>...
Why is it that shorter the wavelength or higher the frequency of the
electromagnetic wave, the wave penetrates deeper and deeper.?
eg. gamma rays penetrates through solid objects, x ray penetrates
through soft tissues but light or radio or microwaves couldn't.
The whole point of QM is that that is not true.
That's classical wave inference. Electrons
have much smaller wavelengths that photons
typically, and sometimes they go around
the photons, instead of hitting them.
Sorry Bob, that that's a pretty bizarre concept that you will not find
in any QM text. If that is what your QM course taught you, best to
repeat the course!
You should Bob to skip QM EM completely. Since all the morons
who teach QM EM courses ever tell you about EM is that
Maxwell invited it. Not CERNians with
a Newton chair in apples and oranges, or some Mathematicians
and Physicists (AKA chemists with a degree in degrees,
and insufficient intelligence to understand
that not everything in the universe is
the Dynamic Fusion of Astronomers with Spandex)
a well-trimmed Resume in the Null Set,
and a pocket full of Bozo-ons.
Harry C.
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
24 Sep 2004 11:54:33 PM |
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Bob wrote:
Why is it that shorter the wavelength or higher the frequency of the
electromagnetic wave, the wave penetrates deeper and deeper.?
eg. gamma rays penetrates through solid objects, x ray penetrates
through soft tissues but light or radio or microwaves couldn't.
regards,
Bob
Not always true
http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/fix/student/chapter6/06f28.html
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| User: "Maleki" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 05:19:43 PM |
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On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:54:33 GMT, Sam Wormley wrote:
http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/fix/student/chapter6/06f28.html
How much radio wave does sun emit? If the amount is
substantial, then according to this diagram there must be
creatures on earth who can naturally see the waves around 1m
wavelengths or so. Are there such creatures? Do trees
(leaves) use them?
--
dosad gofteh chon nim kerdAr nist
bozorgi sarAsar be goftAr nist
"Ferdowsi"
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 06:01:50 PM |
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Dear Maleki:
"Maleki" <maleki_m_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:15hcypfi2ohpk.w6zm79y9737v.dlg@40tude.net...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:54:33 GMT, Sam Wormley wrote:
http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/fix/student/chapter6/06f28.html
How much radio wave does sun emit? If the amount is
substantial, then according to this diagram there must be
creatures on earth who can naturally see the waves around 1m
wavelengths or so. Are there such creatures? Do trees
(leaves) use them?
There was a bit of apocryphal information, that the space shuttle (sorry
Uncle Al, "Space Scuttle") passing overhead ionized the atmosphere, and the
radio waves produced thereby could be heard in the vegetation below it. So
perhaps they do "use them".
Detectors for radio waves are typically large, unless fractal antennae are
imployed. Not too likely that a detector would develop naturally for a
source that *all* objects much above absolute zero radiate at. I am
reminded of the movie "Pitch Black", and the radio transmissions could
serve for object location in a vacuum. Know of any higher lifeforms that
evolved in a vacuum?
David A. Smith
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| User: "sooly" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 08:00:42 PM |
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"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
message news:wNm5d.232622$4o.151898@fed1read01...
Dear Maleki:
"Maleki" <maleki_m_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:15hcypfi2ohpk.w6zm79y9737v.dlg@40tude.net...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:54:33 GMT, Sam Wormley wrote:
http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/fix/student/chapter6/06f28.html
How much radio wave does sun emit? If the amount is
substantial, then according to this diagram there must be
creatures on earth who can naturally see the waves around 1m
wavelengths or so. Are there such creatures? Do trees
(leaves) use them?
There was a bit of apocryphal information, that the space shuttle (sorry
Uncle Al, "Space Scuttle") passing overhead ionized the atmosphere, and
the
radio waves produced thereby could be heard in the vegetation below it.
So
perhaps they do "use them".
Heard by what? not human ears, not vegie ears. takes at least a Diode to
detect RF.
Space Scuttle has flown overhead many time here, even blown up (Tx)
Detectors for radio waves are typically large, unless fractal antennae are
imployed.
Not so. depends upon band, an AM radio can work fine. Fractal antenna
offer no real advantage over older designs, just hype.
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 08:30:13 PM |
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Dear sooly:
"sooly" <soolymirly@nothome.twrp> wrote in message
news:2rmilbF1c6m9vU1@uni-berlin.de...
"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
message news:wNm5d.232622$4o.151898@fed1read01...
Dear Maleki:
"Maleki" <maleki_m_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:15hcypfi2ohpk.w6zm79y9737v.dlg@40tude.net...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:54:33 GMT, Sam Wormley wrote:
http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/fix/student/chapter6/06f28.html
How much radio wave does sun emit? If the amount is
substantial, then according to this diagram there must be
creatures on earth who can naturally see the waves around 1m
wavelengths or so. Are there such creatures? Do trees
(leaves) use them?
There was a bit of apocryphal information, that the space shuttle (sorry
Uncle Al, "Space Scuttle") passing overhead ionized the atmosphere, and
the
radio waves produced thereby could be heard in the vegetation below it.
So
perhaps they do "use them".
Heard by what? not human ears, not vegie ears. takes at least a Diode to
detect RF.
Space Scuttle has flown overhead many time here, even blown up (Tx)
Depends on the background noise, I would guess. And this site indicates it
may all be in our head:
URL:http://www.phys.ucalgary.ca/satellites/html/aur_sound.html
Detectors for radio waves are typically large, unless fractal antennae
are
imployed.
Not so. depends upon band, an AM radio can work fine. Fractal antenna
offer no real advantage over older designs, just hype.
Is AM 1m wavelength?
David A. Smith
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| User: "tadchem" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
26 Sep 2004 02:38:01 AM |
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"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
message news:CYo5d.232905$4o.181151@fed1read01...
<snip>
Is AM 1m wavelength?
The standard AM broadcast band is 535kHz to 1705kHz in North America, but
remains only up to 1615kHz elsewhere.
That gives wavelengths of from 176 to 561 meters.
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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| User: "Maleki" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
27 Sep 2004 10:23:44 AM |
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On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:01:50 -0700, N:dlzc D:aol T:com
(dlzc) wrote:
Not too likely that a detector would develop naturally for a
source that *all* objects much above absolute zero radiate at.
But I thought that would be the infrared range. What about
radio wave range. Do objects at room temperature emit radio
waves? If not, then the sun's illumination of earth's
surface with radio waves would prompt some creatures to use
it for seeing their surroundings, perhaps even in a densely
cloudy sky, or during a sand storm.
--
dar eslAm rowhAni nadArim, Alem dArim. rAbeteye
AnAn bA mardom rAbeteye Alem va Ami, motekhasses
va gheyre-motekhasses ast, na moghaddas va
gheyre-moghaddas, motebarrek va gheyre-motebarrek,
rownAni va mAddi, morid va morAd!
"Ali Shari'ati"
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
27 Sep 2004 07:35:35 PM |
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Dear Maleki:
"Maleki" <maleki_m_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bq7d6kwieths.6bsol8vhb3wm$.dlg@40tude.net...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:01:50 -0700, N:dlzc D:aol T:com
(dlzc) wrote:
Not too likely that a detector would develop naturally for a
source that *all* objects much above absolute zero radiate at.
But I thought that would be the infrared range. What about
radio wave range. Do objects at room temperature emit radio
waves?
Yes. Intensity is *very low*. Planck law:
URL:http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/PlanckLaw.html
.... and could still be an artifact of the model, and not actual fact.
If not, then the sun's illumination of earth's
surface with radio waves would prompt some creatures to use
it for seeing their surroundings, perhaps even in a densely
cloudy sky, or during a sand storm.
Infrared is superior. And sand also radiates with temperature.
David A. Smith
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| User: "Richard Herring" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
06 Oct 2004 11:37:18 AM |
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In message <ol26d.249000$4o.176704@fed1read01>, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com
(dlzc)" <N@?.D.invalid> writes
Dear Maleki:
"Maleki" <maleki_m_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bq7d6kwieths.6bsol8vhb3wm$.dlg@40tude.net...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:01:50 -0700, N:dlzc D:aol T:com
(dlzc) wrote:
Not too likely that a detector would develop naturally for a
source that *all* objects much above absolute zero radiate at.
But I thought that would be the infrared range. What about
radio wave range. Do objects at room temperature emit radio
waves?
Yes. Intensity is *very low*. Planck law:
URL:http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/PlanckLaw.html
... and could still be an artifact of the model, and not actual fact.
Radiation isn't everything. Their own kTR thermal noise is often the
limiting factor for receivers at VHF and above. There's not much hope
for a natural detector if the relevant energy levels are already
completely saturated by its own body temperature.
--
Richard Herring
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 05:29:42 PM |
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Maleki wrote:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:54:33 GMT, Sam Wormley wrote:
http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/fix/student/chapter6/06f28.html
How much radio wave does sun emit? If the amount is
substantial, then according to this diagram there must be
creatures on earth who can naturally see the waves around 1m
wavelengths or so. Are there such creatures? Do trees
(leaves) use them?
Why?
.
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| User: "Maleki" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 05:35:12 PM |
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On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 22:29:42 GMT, Sam Wormley wrote:
Maleki wrote:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:54:33 GMT, Sam Wormley wrote:
http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/fix/student/chapter6/06f28.html
How much radio wave does sun emit? If the amount is
substantial, then according to this diagram there must be
creatures on earth who can naturally see the waves around 1m
wavelengths or so. Are there such creatures? Do trees
(leaves) use them?
Why?
mmm two dollars for that.
--
Freemasons = Zionists V2.35
"lAmassab"
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| User: "John Denker" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 12:20:03 AM |
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Bob wrote:
Why is it that shorter the wavelength or higher the frequency of the
electromagnetic wave, the wave penetrates deeper and deeper.?
eg. gamma rays penetrates through solid objects, x ray penetrates
through soft tissues but light or radio or microwaves couldn't.
Before asking "why" this is true, you might want to ask *whether*
this is true.
Do you really think light waves are more penetrating than radio
waves? Try doing the experiment.
-- Turn on a pocket-sized radio receiver and put it inside a
closed cardboard box. Does it still communicate with the
outside?
-- Turn on a flashlight or a camcorder and put it inside a
closed cardboard box. Does it still communicate with the
outside?
Do you really think light is more penetrating than microwaves?
Why don't they sell 700-watt bright-light ovens instead of
700-watt microwave ovens?
It turns out the navy uses extremely _low_ frequency radio,
(not light, not gamma rays) to communicate with submarines.
Penetration depends radically on what material is being
penetrated. For more info, see
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00321.htm
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| User: "Randy Poe" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 06:16:50 PM |
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John Denker <jsd@av8n.com> wrote in message news:<cj2v63$orr$0$216.39.142.124@theriver.com>...
It turns out the navy uses extremely _low_ frequency radio,
(not light, not gamma rays) to communicate with submarines.
Nitpick. While the Navy does have an ELF communication network
(300-3000 Hz) as a last ditch mechanism to get messages to
submarines, the first line of communication is VLF (3-30 kHz).
VLF because of the higher frequency can carry a reasonable amount
of information, while ELF, once you put on all the parity bits
and encryption, is on the order of bits per minute.
- Randy
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| User: "hanson" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
26 Sep 2004 12:00:44 PM |
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"Randy Poe" <poespam-trap@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:df76407e.0409251516.38073e01@posting.google.com...
John Denker <jsd@av8n.com> wrote in message
news:<cj2v63$orr$0$216.39.142.124@theriver.com>...
It turns out the navy uses extremely _low_ frequency radio,
(not light, not gamma rays) to communicate with submarines.
Nitpick. While the Navy does have an ELF communication network
(300-3000 Hz) as a last ditch mechanism to get messages to
submarines, the first line of communication is VLF (3-30 kHz).
VLF because of the higher frequency can carry a reasonable amount
of information, while ELF, once you put on all the parity bits
and encryption, is on the order of bits per minute.
- Randy
Nitpick. Not if you do some elegant amplitude modification
on the ELF wave train........but that's for special eyes only
and then on a need to know basis only........ahahahahaha....
ahahaha....ahahahanson
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| User: "Richard Herring" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
06 Oct 2004 11:42:16 AM |
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In message <df76407e.0409251516.38073e01@posting.google.com>, Randy Poe
<poespam-trap@yahoo.com> writes
John Denker <jsd@av8n.com> wrote in message
news:<cj2v63$orr$0$216.39.142.124@theriver.com>...
It turns out the navy uses extremely _low_ frequency radio,
(not light, not gamma rays) to communicate with submarines.
Nitpick. While the Navy does have an ELF communication network
(300-3000 Hz) as a last ditch mechanism to get messages to
submarines, the first line of communication is VLF (3-30 kHz).
VLF because of the higher frequency can carry a reasonable amount
of information, while ELF, once you put on all the parity bits
and encryption, is on the order of bits per minute.
Unfortunately, the attenuation of sea water scales with frequency as
something like sqrt(f/kHz) dB per *metre*. Swings and roundabouts.
--
Richard Herring
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| User: "Randy Poe" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
07 Oct 2004 12:11:53 PM |
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Richard Herring <junk@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message news:<$4uRXdWoBCZBFwzb@baesystems.com>...
Unfortunately, the attenuation of sea water scales with frequency as
something like sqrt(f/kHz) dB per *metre*. Swings and roundabouts.
So you try to get your antenna within a few skin depths of the
surface. With one of these for instance:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/an-bsq-5.htm
- Randy
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
24 Sep 2004 11:56:39 PM |
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In article <e80b0472.0409242040.524fe78f@posting.google.com>, (Bob) writes:
Why is it that shorter the wavelength or higher the frequency of the
electromagnetic wave, the wave penetrates deeper and deeper.?
eg. gamma rays penetrates through solid objects, x ray penetrates
through soft tissues but light or radio or microwaves couldn't.
Well, let me see. Visible light doesn't penetrate through walls, but
radio waves manage very nicely. Visible light is almost fully
transmitted through a glass pane, but x-rays at 1A wavelength are
neraly fully absorbed. The mean absorption length for visible light
in clear air is tens of kilometers, for high energy gammas it is just
few hundred meters.
As you see, the picture is far from simple.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
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| User: "Maleki" |
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| Title: Re: why higher frequency wave penetrates and other won't.??? |
25 Sep 2004 05:32:02 PM |
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On 24 Sep 2004 21:40:34 -0700, Bob wrote:
Why is it that shorter the wavelength or higher the frequency of the
electromagnetic wave, the wave penetrates deeper and deeper.?
eg. gamma rays penetrates through solid objects, x ray penetrates
through soft tissues but light or radio or microwaves couldn't.
regards,
Bob
Photon doesn't just go away, it must get absorbed somewhere.
Find out what can absorve what packets of energy and go from
there. Check both atomic and nuclear energy levels of
substances the light goes through.
--
Ashpaz ke dotA shod Ash yA shur misheh yA binamak.
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