Does anyone really think this is random?



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Topic: Games > Poker
User: ""
Date: 03 Jan 2007 01:19:31 AM
Object: Does anyone really think this is random?
Does anyone really pay attention on JokerStars and think that they
might be dealing at random? I really doubt that anyone could really
think that the frequency of bad beats is anywhere near normal. They
must have never played live if they think JokerStars is poker. It's
nothing even slightly close to real poker.
.

User: "Old Wolf"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 04 Jan 2007 08:13:37 PM
wrote:

Does anyone really pay attention on JokerStars and think that they
might be dealing at random?

I played a tourney just now, and on the first two hands, the same guy
won with quads both times. Totally random.
.

User: "Kenneth Sloan"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 01:28:54 AM
wrote:

Does anyone really pay attention on JokerStars and think that they
might be dealing at random?

yes

I really doubt that anyone could really
think that the frequency of bad beats is anywhere near normal.

what frequency have you observed?
what frequency do you think is "normal"?

They
must have never played live if they think JokerStars is poker.

incorrect.

It's
nothing even slightly close to real poker.

I take it you're a sore loser?
--
Kenneth Sloan

Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/
.
User: "A Man Beaten by Jacks"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 07:27:19 AM
On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 01:28:54 -0600, Kenneth Sloan <KennethRSloan@gmail.com>
wrote:

It's
nothing even slightly close to real poker.

I take it you're a sore loser?

No. Like 100% of the other rigged theorists, he is a huge winner.
.
User: "ShuffletownKid"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 03:06:32 PM
"A Man Beaten by Jacks" <nobody@fool.foo> wrote in message
news:0pbnp21v8454vdr43pgt75kgd4b3gj3q6l@4ax.com...

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 01:28:54 -0600, Kenneth Sloan
<KennethRSloan@gmail.com>
wrote:

It's
nothing even slightly close to real poker.


I take it you're a sore loser?


No. Like 100% of the other rigged theorists, he is a huge winner.

How much is huge? I'm not sure if I fit your mold or not. I'm in the black
in B&M for 40 years and online for the 2+ that I have played. If I didn't
know something about possibilities and probabilities of scams, I doubt I
would still be playing in the black.
--
In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would
be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might
start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in
physics classrooms.
-Stephen Jay Gould
.
User: "da pickle"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 07:54:51 PM
"ShuffletownKid"

In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would
be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might
start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in
physics classrooms.
-Stephen Jay Gould

It's turtles all the way down ...
I had a physics professor that always looked "up" when he dropped something
.... something about not really believing in Browning movement being "random"
.... his RNG was a little off.
.


User: "Kenneth Sloan"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 02:22:05 PM
A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 01:28:54 -0600, Kenneth Sloan <

>
wrote:

It's
nothing even slightly close to real poker.


I take it you're a sore loser?


No. Like 100% of the other rigged theorists, he is a huge winner.

You misspelled "whiner".
--
Kenneth Sloan

Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/
.



User: "Bill Ricardi"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 06:11:20 AM
wrote:

Does anyone really pay attention on JokerStars and think that they
might be dealing at random? I really doubt that anyone could really
think that the frequency of bad beats is anywhere near normal. They
must have never played live if they think JokerStars is poker. It's
nothing even slightly close to real poker.

Friend of mine just showed me his 700K hand database on Stars actually.
The curve was amazingly dead on, from winning on pre-flop all in's, to
PP deal percentages. I'm guessing the RNG issues, if any, even out long
term or something?
.
User: "A Man Beaten by Jacks"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 07:28:22 AM
On 3 Jan 2007 04:11:20 -0800, "Bill Ricardi" <billricardi@googlemail.com> wrote:

rgposter@yahoo.com wrote:

Does anyone really pay attention on JokerStars and think that they
might be dealing at random? I really doubt that anyone could really
think that the frequency of bad beats is anywhere near normal. They
must have never played live if they think JokerStars is poker. It's
nothing even slightly close to real poker.

Friend of mine just showed me his 700K hand database on Stars actually.
The curve was amazingly dead on, from winning on pre-flop all in's, to
PP deal percentages. I'm guessing the RNG issues, if any, even out long
term or something?

They rig it so the people who check the stats get stats that are right. It's
like psychic powers. They go away in the presence of unbelievers.
.
User: "Charlie Foxtrot"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 03:54:12 PM
On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 08:28:22 -0500, A Man Beaten by Jacks
<nobody@fool.foo> wrote:

On 3 Jan 2007 04:11:20 -0800, "Bill Ricardi" <billricardi@googlemail.com> wrote:

rgposter@yahoo.com wrote:

Does anyone really pay attention on JokerStars and think that they
might be dealing at random? I really doubt that anyone could really
think that the frequency of bad beats is anywhere near normal. They
must have never played live if they think JokerStars is poker. It's
nothing even slightly close to real poker.


Friend of mine just showed me his 700K hand database on Stars actually.
The curve was amazingly dead on, from winning on pre-flop all in's, to
PP deal percentages. I'm guessing the RNG issues, if any, even out long
term or something?


They rig it so the people who check the stats get stats that are right. It's
like psychic powers. They go away in the presence of unbelievers.

Okay, so here's the challenge all the true believers throw out every
time: Put that 700K hand database up online so we can all examine it.
Then the "it's rigged" crowd might give you a little credence.
I won't be holding my breath.
Foxtrot
.
User: "da pickle"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 07:46:36 PM
"Charlie Foxtrot"

I won't be holding my breath.

Is this a joke? Surely you are responding to a joke with a joke?
.

User: "Bill Ricardi"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 07:49:52 PM
Charlie Foxtrot wrote:

Okay, so here's the challenge all the true believers throw out every
time: Put that 700K hand database up online so we can all examine it.
Then the "it's rigged" crowd might give you a little credence.

You want me to post my friend's entire hand history on RGP? I'd like to
keep my friends, thank you very much.
Besides, anyone who knows it isn't rigged will want to CONTINUE to play
there. Why don't you people who think it's rigged post YOUR results,
since you have no fucking reason to play at a rigged site, right?
You're going to quit playing there if it's rigged, and quit playing
online if you think all of online is rigged, because to do anything
else is stupid. You aren't stupid. So show us your proof.
.
User: "Kenneth Sloan"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 10:16:30 PM
Bill Ricardi wrote:

Charlie Foxtrot wrote:


Okay, so here's the challenge all the true believers throw out every
time: Put that 700K hand database up online so we can all examine it.
Then the "it's rigged" crowd might give you a little credence.


You want me to post my friend's entire hand history on RGP? I'd like to
keep my friends, thank you very much.

If they convinced you, you must have performed some sort of
statistical tests. Perhaps you could just post the results of those tests?
--
Kenneth Sloan

Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/
.
User: "Bill Ricardi"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 04 Jan 2007 01:28:58 PM
Kenneth Sloan wrote:

If they convinced you, you must have performed some sort of
statistical tests. Perhaps you could just post the results of those tests?

He performed the tests, but as I already said, we hit a damned near
perfect curve of all-in preflop results, within one half of one percent
all along the curve. We got the normal number of pocket pairs dealt
within one tenth of one percent (5.92 percent I believe), with a very
even distribution.
Those are the vital statistics, because both happen without knowledge
of the community cards, and the PP stat requires zero player
interaction to see the correct level of normality.
Now let's see those databases of all the 'it's rigged' crowd, who
should clearly be quitting online poker anyway, right?
.


User: "Charlie Foxtrot"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 04 Jan 2007 06:12:36 AM
On 3 Jan 2007 17:49:52 -0800, "Bill Ricardi"
<billricardi@googlemail.com> wrote:


Charlie Foxtrot wrote:


Okay, so here's the challenge all the true believers throw out every
time: Put that 700K hand database up online so we can all examine it.
Then the "it's rigged" crowd might give you a little credence.


You want me to post my friend's entire hand history on RGP? I'd like to
keep my friends, thank you very much.

Besides, anyone who knows it isn't rigged will want to CONTINUE to play
there. Why don't you people who think it's rigged post YOUR results,
since you have no fucking reason to play at a rigged site, right?

You're going to quit playing there if it's rigged, and quit playing
online if you think all of online is rigged, because to do anything
else is stupid. You aren't stupid. So show us your proof.

Alright, here's the same response that the true believers give the
"it's rigged" crowd:
So, you are lying. You are making this up. There is no 700K hand
database. You are full of *****. You have absolutely no proof that it
is not rigged.
Foxtrot
.
User: "Bill Ricardi"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 04 Jan 2007 01:33:27 PM
Charlie Foxtrot wrote:

Alright, here's the same response that the true believers give the
"it's rigged" crowd:

So, you are lying. You are making this up. There is no 700K hand
database. You are full of *****. You have absolutely no proof that it
is not rigged.

We have no motivation to post databases! Why? Because the 'its rigged'
players are all supposedly winning players. Why the hell would we want
to give them proof that it isn't rigged? You make money by playing
against losing players. If supposedly winning players want to quit, I
think that's fucking FANTASTIC! Buh bye!
.
User: "Charlie Foxtrot"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 04 Jan 2007 04:51:03 PM
On 4 Jan 2007 11:33:27 -0800, "Bill Ricardi"
<billricardi@googlemail.com> wrote:


Charlie Foxtrot wrote:


Alright, here's the same response that the true believers give the
"it's rigged" crowd:

So, you are lying. You are making this up. There is no 700K hand
database. You are full of *****. You have absolutely no proof that it
is not rigged.


We have no motivation to post databases! Why? Because the 'its rigged'
players are all supposedly winning players. Why the hell would we want
to give them proof that it isn't rigged? You make money by playing
against losing players. If supposedly winning players want to quit, I
think that's fucking FANTASTIC! Buh bye!

Wow. That's probably the first truthful post I've ever seen on the
subject.
It's always been my theory that those who scream to the heavens every
time someone points out how and why online poker is rigged are
actually pretty decent players with the fatal flaw of being extremely
loose. The kind of players that will tell you about their "extremely
aggressive form" of playing poker. Players that, despite their
understanding and knowledge of the game, can't seem to win live
because they want to get fancy and "use their stack as a weapon," etc.
Online is a haven for them. They get their chips in with the best of
it and meet up with the weighted loses the software generates for
those hand situations but more than make up for it with their *****
pushes, trying to be aggressive, when the software saves their asses.
Now they get the best of both worlds. They are coinflips in
out-donking the donks and they become semi-favorites in dumb-*****
situations they push themselves into with more solid players.
Hence the "it's a different game online" mantra of those claiming it's
not rigged. They like it because now they are "winning" players,
where as they weren't when or if they played live. Their form of
poker has become a winning form for them and they just want to take
what they know is true, in the backs of their minds - that the
software is propping them up - and brush that little bit of nuisance
information under the rug.
The guy who was bed-ridden that used to put money on Stars for me when
I'd go shopping for him and stuff... That was him to a "T." He loved
online poker and when he got better, refused to actually go play live
with me. He was one of those "very aggressive players... Just as
likely to be raising with AA in position as to be raising 3 7 off suit
from out of position." He described his style of play in, exactly,
this way and made a ***** load on Poker Stars while I rake in money
playing live and can't win with a highly favored hand at PS. He
continues to play and win - by playing like ***** - at PS and won't
even dream of putting his money on the real felt.
Why? He knows, deep down inside, that his "aggressive form of poker"
isn't going to fair to well for him in real live play. It never did,
it never will. Online, he's in heaven.
Foxtrot
.
User: "da pickle"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 04 Jan 2007 06:12:20 PM
"Charlie Foxtrot"

Wow. That's probably the first truthful post I've ever seen on the
subject.
Online is a haven for them. They get their chips in with the best of
it and meet up with the weighted loses the software generates for
those hand situations but more than make up for it with their *****
pushes, trying to be aggressive, when the software saves their asses.

< some critical material redacted>
Your argument has come almost completely around. It is illustrated in the
second item pictured below:
http://www.strumpette.com/categories/14-Fans-and-Fanatics
(And Paul might be interested in the third item!)
.

User: "Bill Ricardi"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 04 Jan 2007 07:55:56 PM
Charlie Foxtrot wrote:

We have no motivation to post databases! Why? Because the 'its rigged'
players are all supposedly winning players. Why the hell would we want
to give them proof that it isn't rigged? You make money by playing
against losing players. If supposedly winning players want to quit, I
think that's fucking FANTASTIC! Buh bye!


Wow. That's probably the first truthful post I've ever seen on the
subject.

I'm nothing if not, well, brutally honest. :)
.

User: "MysteriAce"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 04 Jan 2007 05:24:35 PM
On Jan 4 2007 3:51 PM, Charlie Foxtrot wrote:

On 4 Jan 2007 11:33:27 -0800, "Bill Ricardi"
<billricardi@googlemail.com> wrote:


Charlie Foxtrot wrote:


Alright, here's the same response that the true believers give the
"it's rigged" crowd:

So, you are lying. You are making this up. There is no 700K hand
database. You are full of *****. You have absolutely no proof that it
is not rigged.


We have no motivation to post databases! Why? Because the 'its rigged'
players are all supposedly winning players. Why the hell would we want
to give them proof that it isn't rigged? You make money by playing
against losing players. If supposedly winning players want to quit, I
think that's fucking FANTASTIC! Buh bye!


Wow. That's probably the first truthful post I've ever seen on the
subject.

It's always been my theory that those who scream to the heavens every
time someone points out how and why online poker is rigged are
actually pretty decent players with the fatal flaw of being extremely
loose. The kind of players that will tell you about their "extremely
aggressive form" of playing poker. Players that, despite their
understanding and knowledge of the game, can't seem to win live
because they want to get fancy and "use their stack as a weapon," etc.

Online is a haven for them. They get their chips in with the best of
it and meet up with the weighted loses the software generates for
those hand situations but more than make up for it with their *****
pushes, trying to be aggressive, when the software saves their asses.

Now they get the best of both worlds. They are coinflips in
out-donking the donks and they become semi-favorites in dumb-*****
situations they push themselves into with more solid players.

Hence the "it's a different game online" mantra of those claiming it's
not rigged. They like it because now they are "winning" players,
where as they weren't when or if they played live. Their form of
poker has become a winning form for them and they just want to take
what they know is true, in the backs of their minds - that the
software is propping them up - and brush that little bit of nuisance
information under the rug.

The guy who was bed-ridden that used to put money on Stars for me when
I'd go shopping for him and stuff... That was him to a "T." He loved
online poker and when he got better, refused to actually go play live
with me. He was one of those "very aggressive players... Just as
likely to be raising with AA in position as to be raising 3 7 off suit
from out of position." He described his style of play in, exactly,
this way and made a ***** load on Poker Stars while I rake in money
playing live and can't win with a highly favored hand at PS. He
continues to play and win - by playing like ***** - at PS and won't
even dream of putting his money on the real felt.

Why? He knows, deep down inside, that his "aggressive form of poker"
isn't going to fair to well for him in real live play. It never did,
it never will. Online, he's in heaven.

Foxtrot

Your ignorance and closed-mindedness is simply astounding.
~ MysteriAce
"If I go insane
Please don't stick your wires in my brain"
------- 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
.
User: "Palooka"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 04 Jan 2007 08:05:45 PM
"MysteriAce" <a9c1edc@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
news:jue074xbgd.ln2@recgroups.com...


Your ignorance and closed-mindedness is simply astounding.

I beg to differ. It is entirely stupid, but not in the least surprising.
Palooka
.

User: "A Man Beaten by Jacks"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 05 Jan 2007 06:31:32 AM
On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 15:24:35 -0800, "MysteriAce" <a9c1edc@webnntp.invalid>
wrote:
On Jan 4 2007 3:51 PM, CF, aka "A Man Beaten by Better Players" wrote:
Assumption 1: Online is rigged.

It's always been my theory that those who scream to the heavens every
time someone points out how and why online poker is rigged are
actually pretty decent players with the fatal flaw of being extremely
loose. The kind of players that will tell you about their "extremely
aggressive form" of playing poker. Players that, despite their
understanding and knowledge of the game, can't seem to win live
because they want to get fancy and "use their stack as a weapon," etc.
Online is a haven for them. They get their chips in with the best of
it and meet up with the weighted loses the software generates for
those hand situations but more than make up for it with their *****
pushes, trying to be aggressive, when the software saves their asses.

Assumption 2: There is a style of play which is rewarded online, and
you win by playing that way.
[More bla bla bla rant ***** moan drool gibber bla bla bla snipped.]

Why? He knows, deep down inside, that his "aggressive form of poker"
isn't going to fair to well for him in real live play. It never did,
it never will. Online, he's in heaven.

Conclusion: Instead of playing online, adopting the winning style, raking
in the bucks, and being "in heaven," I'd rather whine and cry like a little
*****.
Of course, this is if we assume this crying little punk actually is a winner
anywhere at all, which is pretty doubtful.

Your ignorance and closed-mindedness is simply astounding.

His ignorance and closed-mindedness is actually kind of boring.
.





User: "storman99"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 10:24:15 PM
there is proof poker is rigged and it's right under your nose
just look for it on your poker site and you will find it
Bill Ricardi wrote:

Charlie Foxtrot wrote:


Okay, so here's the challenge all the true believers throw out every
time: Put that 700K hand database up online so we can all examine it.
Then the "it's rigged" crowd might give you a little credence.


You want me to post my friend's entire hand history on RGP? I'd like to
keep my friends, thank you very much.

Besides, anyone who knows it isn't rigged will want to CONTINUE to play
there. Why don't you people who think it's rigged post YOUR results,
since you have no fucking reason to play at a rigged site, right?

You're going to quit playing there if it's rigged, and quit playing
online if you think all of online is rigged, because to do anything
else is stupid. You aren't stupid. So show us your proof.

.





User: "JockoJ"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 01:16:35 PM
I think it's pretty obvious that cheating is going on at least by the
players, if not by the house rigging the deal to keep weaker players in
the game.
People are just too gullable and naive realize it, and many don't want
people to realize it because they make money off people playing online
through other websites/affiliate programs.
I thought I made an insightful post the other day, but didn't get many
responses. Just some examples to why rampant cheating is most likely
taking place by both the players and the house.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.gambling.poker/browse_frm/thread/4933e3d041dca4b4/f2413bd710e74cf0?hl=en#f2413bd710e74cf0
rgposter@yahoo.com wrote:

Does anyone really pay attention on JokerStars and think that they
might be dealing at random? I really doubt that anyone could really
think that the frequency of bad beats is anywhere near normal. They
must have never played live if they think JokerStars is poker. It's
nothing even slightly close to real poker.

.
User: "A Man Beaten by Jacks"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 02:34:45 PM
On 3 Jan 2007 11:16:35 -0800, "JockoJ" <jocko911@inbox.com> wrote:

I think it's pretty obvious that cheating is going on at least by the
players, if not by the house rigging the deal to keep weaker players in
the game.

I don't think anyone reasonable will deny that collusion is going on.
.
User: "Bill Ricardi"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 07:39:27 PM
A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:

On 3 Jan 2007 11:16:35 -0800, "JockoJ" <jocko911@inbox.com> wrote:

I think it's pretty obvious that cheating is going on at least by the
players, if not by the house rigging the deal to keep weaker players in
the game.


I don't think anyone reasonable will deny that collusion is going on.

In fact a lot of us have caught collusion rings and seen their asses
kicked kicked off of various sites. It's the far, FAR more likely
source of 'suck outs', because these people are playing with 3 hands
worth of information, vs your one hand. But it's easier to blame the
house than admit you've been cheated.
I'll admit that I've been cheated online, and I spent a long time
learning to detect team play and avoid them, while reporting the
activity to the site. Sometimes you'll even get your money back!
.



User: "XaQ Morphy"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 02:43:35 PM
Re: Does anyone really think this is random?
No. Your inane ramblings seem to have a very distinct pattern to them.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
________________________________________________________________________ 
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com
.

User: "Shimmy Shammy"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 01:32:02 AM
Your problem is that most people are fish and so they are not the ones
getting screwed. It's a small percentage of sharks who are getting the
sirty deals so that they don't chase away the fish and cash out.
Collect your hand history's and look for noteworthy anamolies. For
example... how often does domination fail you all in, how often do you
pairs hit a set when they see a flop, how often does someone flop a
higher set, how often does your opponent have AA when you have KK,
etc... There are plenty of little ways you can get screwed and they
all need to be looked at and analyzed -- request all your hand
history's and look for a few anamolies to start with -- if you find
something you might want to submit them for review to serious
statisticians. I suspect that these sites will either start giving a
fair deal or they will anger the wrong people and subsequently face a
class action lawsuit. It's a shame these sites are so damn greedy and
corrupt -- but that's big business.
rgposter@yahoo.com wrote:

Does anyone really pay attention on JokerStars and think that they
might be dealing at random? I really doubt that anyone could really
think that the frequency of bad beats is anywhere near normal. They
must have never played live if they think JokerStars is poker. It's
nothing even slightly close to real poker.

.
User: "skillsaw777"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 05:20:21 AM
It's a small percentage of sharks who are getting the

shitty deals so that they don't chase away the fish and cash out.

Yes. Perfectly Said.
"Pokerstars is engineered to balance play between good and bad players
so that more money stays in the middle and the rake potential is
maximized."
.

User: "Johnny T"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 11:33:36 AM
Guess what the number one hand for going out is at the WSOP. What are
the odds? It is rigged.
.

User: "Lucas Ford"

Title: Re: Does anyone really think this is random? 03 Jan 2007 03:07:26 PM
Shimmy Shammy wrote:

suspect that these sites will either start giving a
fair deal or they will anger the wrong people and subsequently face a
class action lawsuit.

Really? Ya think so? I wonder Einstein, where do you think such a
suit will be filed?
.



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