| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-Economics |
| User: |
"Steve Dufour" |
| Date: |
29 Nov 2005 01:06:12 AM |
| Object: |
Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
United Press International
Berlin doctors strike for higher wages
Nov. 28, 2005 at 11:59PM
Medical workers at Europe's largest university hospital, Charite in
Berlin, Germany, are on a weeklong strike to protest pay cuts and
unpaid overtime.
Matthias Albrecht, regional chairman of the Marburger Bund
physicians' union, said 99 percent of the 2,200 doctors employed at the
hospital had joined the strike.
Doctors are urging hospital administrators to approve a
collective wage agreement for medical workers.
According to Charite medical workers, doctors' wages fell 7.5
percent from 1993 to 2002. The university hospital, which combines a
network of clinics across the once divided city, is expected to cut
$312 million in expenses by 2010, Deutsche Welle reported.
The medical school and university hospital of Berlin's Humboldt
University, Charite is the largest university hospital in Europe with
2,037 beds in 49 clinics. It treats roughly 123,000 inpatients and
900,000 outpatients a year.
.
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| User: "sam fisher" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
29 Nov 2005 04:59:04 AM |
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I spent the weekend with a dear friend who visited Chicago for a medical
conference and I couldn't beleive the conditions german doctors are in.
They make no money whatsoever, have no payed overtime, are forced to work
brutal overtimes, like 24 hours straight is an average every month about
twice. etc...this guy, as many of his collegues is now looking for ways to
immigrate: even in neighboring Switzerland he would make 2X the money, but
in the US and some middle easter countries money is many times his current
salary. Beleive it or not, in Germany a doctor with a PHD makes less money
than a union worker in many US factories.
"Steve Dufour" <hobbitfan111@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133247972.693200.129010@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
United Press International
Berlin doctors strike for higher wages
Nov. 28, 2005 at 11:59PM
Medical workers at Europe's largest university hospital, Charite in
Berlin, Germany, are on a weeklong strike to protest pay cuts and
unpaid overtime.
Matthias Albrecht, regional chairman of the Marburger Bund
physicians' union, said 99 percent of the 2,200 doctors employed at the
hospital had joined the strike.
Doctors are urging hospital administrators to approve a
collective wage agreement for medical workers.
According to Charite medical workers, doctors' wages fell 7.5
percent from 1993 to 2002. The university hospital, which combines a
network of clinics across the once divided city, is expected to cut
$312 million in expenses by 2010, Deutsche Welle reported.
The medical school and university hospital of Berlin's Humboldt
University, Charite is the largest university hospital in Europe with
2,037 beds in 49 clinics. It treats roughly 123,000 inpatients and
900,000 outpatients a year.
.
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| User: "euro" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
29 Nov 2005 12:44:21 PM |
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sam fisher schrieb:
I spent the weekend with a dear friend who visited Chicago for a medical
conference and I couldn't beleive the conditions german doctors are in.
They make no money whatsoever, have no payed overtime, are forced to work
brutal overtimes, like 24 hours straight is an average every month about
twice. etc...this guy, as many of his collegues is now looking for ways to
immigrate: even in neighboring Switzerland he would make 2X the money, but
in the US and some middle easter countries money is many times his current
salary. Beleive it or not, in Germany a doctor with a PHD makes less money
than a union worker in many US factories.
"Steve Dufour" <hobbitfan111@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133247972.693200.129010@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
United Press International
Berlin doctors strike for higher wages
Nov. 28, 2005 at 11:59PM
Medical workers at Europe's largest university hospital, Charite in
Berlin, Germany, are on a weeklong strike to protest pay cuts and
unpaid overtime.
Matthias Albrecht, regional chairman of the Marburger Bund
physicians' union, said 99 percent of the 2,200 doctors employed at the
hospital had joined the strike.
Doctors are urging hospital administrators to approve a
collective wage agreement for medical workers.
According to Charite medical workers, doctors' wages fell 7.5
percent from 1993 to 2002. The university hospital, which combines a
network of clinics across the once divided city, is expected to cut
$312 million in expenses by 2010, Deutsche Welle reported.
The medical school and university hospital of Berlin's Humboldt
University, Charite is the largest university hospital in Europe with
2,037 beds in 49 clinics. It treats roughly 123,000 inpatients and
900,000 outpatients a year.
first off all in Germany You finish the studies with a diploma and not
with a PhD and second, if that is really true, then why so many foreign
doctors work in Germany ???
I am sure ERIC can explain that ?
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| User: "Eric" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
29 Nov 2005 05:15:39 PM |
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In article <1133289861.885189.218320@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
euro <euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote:
sam fisher schrieb:
I spent the weekend with a dear friend who visited Chicago for a medical
conference and I couldn't beleive the conditions german doctors are in.
They make no money whatsoever, have no payed overtime, are forced to work
brutal overtimes, like 24 hours straight is an average every month about
twice. etc...this guy, as many of his collegues is now looking for ways to
immigrate: even in neighboring Switzerland he would make 2X the money, but
in the US and some middle easter countries money is many times his current
salary. Beleive it or not, in Germany a doctor with a PHD makes less money
than a union worker in many US factories.
"Steve Dufour" <hobbitfan111@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133247972.693200.129010@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
United Press International
Berlin doctors strike for higher wages
Nov. 28, 2005 at 11:59PM
Medical workers at Europe's largest university hospital, Charite in
Berlin, Germany, are on a weeklong strike to protest pay cuts and
unpaid overtime.
Matthias Albrecht, regional chairman of the Marburger Bund
physicians' union, said 99 percent of the 2,200 doctors employed at the
hospital had joined the strike.
Doctors are urging hospital administrators to approve a
collective wage agreement for medical workers.
According to Charite medical workers, doctors' wages fell 7.5
percent from 1993 to 2002. The university hospital, which combines a
network of clinics across the once divided city, is expected to cut
$312 million in expenses by 2010, Deutsche Welle reported.
The medical school and university hospital of Berlin's Humboldt
University, Charite is the largest university hospital in Europe with
2,037 beds in 49 clinics. It treats roughly 123,000 inpatients and
900,000 outpatients a year.
first off all in Germany You finish the studies with a diploma and not
with a PhD and second,
I think you are jealous of medical doctors, you keep pointing that they
aren't PhD's.
if that is really true, then why so many foreign
doctors work in Germany ???
I am sure ERIC can explain that ?
What you mean, like Swiss and French and Canadian and British and
American doctors come to work in Germany? Or do you mean Russian,
Turkish, Lebanese and Indian?
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| User: "sam fisher" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
29 Nov 2005 06:06:19 PM |
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"Eric" <lb@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:301120050815399410%lb@nospam.com...
In article <1133289861.885189.218320@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
euro <euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote:
sam fisher schrieb:
I spent the weekend with a dear friend who visited Chicago for a
medical
conference and I couldn't beleive the conditions german doctors are in.
They make no money whatsoever, have no payed overtime, are forced to
work
brutal overtimes, like 24 hours straight is an average every month
about
twice. etc...this guy, as many of his collegues is now looking for ways
to
immigrate: even in neighboring Switzerland he would make 2X the money,
but
in the US and some middle easter countries money is many times his
current
salary. Beleive it or not, in Germany a doctor with a PHD makes less
money
than a union worker in many US factories.
"Steve Dufour" <hobbitfan111@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133247972.693200.129010@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
United Press International
Berlin doctors strike for higher wages
Nov. 28, 2005 at 11:59PM
Medical workers at Europe's largest university hospital, Charite in
Berlin, Germany, are on a weeklong strike to protest pay cuts and
unpaid overtime.
Matthias Albrecht, regional chairman of the Marburger Bund
physicians' union, said 99 percent of the 2,200 doctors employed at
the
hospital had joined the strike.
Doctors are urging hospital administrators to approve a
collective wage agreement for medical workers.
According to Charite medical workers, doctors' wages fell 7.5
percent from 1993 to 2002. The university hospital, which combines a
network of clinics across the once divided city, is expected to cut
$312 million in expenses by 2010, Deutsche Welle reported.
The medical school and university hospital of Berlin's Humboldt
University, Charite is the largest university hospital in Europe with
2,037 beds in 49 clinics. It treats roughly 123,000 inpatients and
900,000 outpatients a year.
first off all in Germany You finish the studies with a diploma and not
with a PhD and second,
My friend is not simply a medical doctor, he's also a PHD and teaches
classes at the university. He has multiple diplomas and just recently got
his specialty certificate and working towards associate professorship. Yet
his salary is about 50,000 EUros.
I think you are jealous of medical doctors, you keep pointing that they
aren't PhD's.
if that is really true, then why so many foreign
doctors work in Germany ???
I am sure ERIC can explain that ?
What you mean, like Swiss and French and Canadian and British and
American doctors come to work in Germany? Or do you mean Russian,
Turkish, Lebanese and Indian?
.
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| User: "Thomas Koenig" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
01 Dec 2005 11:50:56 AM |
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X-Post fixed.
sam fisher wrote:
My friend is not simply a medical doctor, he's also a PHD and teaches
classes at the university.
Highly unlikely. He probably holds an M.D. (Dr. med.), unless he
obtained his PhD in a discipline other than medicine.
He has multiple diplomas and just recently got
his specialty certificate and working towards associate professorship. Yet
his salary is about 50,000 EUros.
In a country, where some full-time cleaning staff earns less than
$12,000 per year, this sounds fair to me.
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| User: "euro" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
30 Nov 2005 07:20:20 AM |
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either Your friend is talking nonesense or he is not what he is telling
to be.
Universities are run by the state and a person teaching there gets per
course
a maximum of maybe 200-300 Euros, depending on the academical degree.
A PhD
in America is a professorship basically. A doctor degree in Germany is
not equivalent to be
in the position of a professor. IN order to be a professor in Germany
You have to write another thesis
a socalled habilitation thesis like another doctorate and then You are
a professor. In
other words a doctor title has the immaterial function of respect which
does not exiost in the Us
as such, since Americans do not respect anything especially not
themselves.
So a doctor in Germany gets paid by the years in service even if he
reads the Washington Times all day
In the US a PhD is considered a professor`s qualification, which causes
of course slight misunderstandings
on the academical level people are in. Since American academics often
go though a rigorous school like
system the outcome is differnt from European scholls, that operate in a
differnt way. This means that
the higher education in the US , beyond the BA degree is tougher than
in Europe.
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| User: "sam fisher" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
30 Nov 2005 09:05:55 PM |
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I might not be clear because I am an engineer in the US and have no clue
what doctors study in Germany, so I might have missunderstood what my friend
was telling me, but I am pretty sure he was talking about a scientific
degree which he received 6 years after he received his MD and which enabled
him to teach classes beside his normal duties as a doctor at the University
Hospital.
Regardless, I think 50000 euros even for an MD is not too much.
"euro" <euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1133356820.395136.112550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
either Your friend is talking nonesense or he is not what he is telling
to be.
Universities are run by the state and a person teaching there gets per
course
a maximum of maybe 200-300 Euros, depending on the academical degree.
A PhD
in America is a professorship basically. A doctor degree in Germany is
not equivalent to be
in the position of a professor. IN order to be a professor in Germany
You have to write another thesis
a socalled habilitation thesis like another doctorate and then You are
a professor. In
other words a doctor title has the immaterial function of respect which
does not exiost in the Us
as such, since Americans do not respect anything especially not
themselves.
So a doctor in Germany gets paid by the years in service even if he
reads the Washington Times all day
In the US a PhD is considered a professor`s qualification, which causes
of course slight misunderstandings
on the academical level people are in. Since American academics often
go though a rigorous school like
system the outcome is differnt from European scholls, that operate in a
differnt way. This means that
the higher education in the US , beyond the BA degree is tougher than
in Europe.
.
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| User: "euro" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
01 Dec 2005 02:14:00 AM |
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it depends on the amount of taxes You have to pay
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| User: "euro" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
01 Dec 2005 02:14:07 AM |
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it depends on the amount of taxes You have to pay
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| User: "sam fisher" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
01 Dec 2005 02:23:18 AM |
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"euro" <euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1133424847.126514.71940@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
it depends on the amount of taxes You have to pay
in Germany it's about 50%
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| User: "euro" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
01 Dec 2005 10:50:22 AM |
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wrong again it is in general about 33 percent. Only if You have nothing
to deduct and a real gigh income You micht end up at 46 perrcent, but
big companies freelancers and people with high income pay absolutely no
tax since there are tax deductible items on the financial market
available. Please do not spread nonesense written by some American
authors who understand Germany based on hollywood movies and based on
the idea that Germans are by default born with a NAZI mind. This
opinion I find often in the United States of America the home of the
free, who preserve freedom by killing the rest of the world. Thank You
.
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| User: "sam fisher" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
01 Dec 2005 08:02:47 PM |
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as I said before, I heard this from a friend.
"euro" <euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1133455822.171699.210800@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
wrong again it is in general about 33 percent. Only if You have nothing
to deduct and a real gigh income You micht end up at 46 perrcent, but
big companies freelancers and people with high income pay absolutely no
tax since there are tax deductible items on the financial market
available. Please do not spread nonesense written by some American
authors who understand Germany based on hollywood movies and based on
the idea that Germans are by default born with a NAZI mind. This
opinion I find often in the United States of America the home of the
free, who preserve freedom by killing the rest of the world. Thank You
.
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| User: "Eric" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
02 Dec 2005 12:10:09 AM |
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In article <FPydnanZOoEZNhLenZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, sam fisher
<sam@home.info> wrote:
as I said before, I heard this from a friend.
Well now you heard from a German socialist, who thinks that it is USA's
fault that Germans have the lowest morale overall and one of the
highest unemployment rates of any country in Europe.
National or International, socialism is still socialism, it has the
same end results.
"euro" <euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1133455822.171699.210800@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
wrong again it is in general about 33 percent. Only if You have nothing
to deduct and a real gigh income You micht end up at 46 perrcent, but
big companies freelancers and people with high income pay absolutely no
tax since there are tax deductible items on the financial market
available. Please do not spread nonesense written by some American
authors who understand Germany based on hollywood movies and based on
the idea that Germans are by default born with a NAZI mind. This
opinion I find often in the United States of America the home of the
free, who preserve freedom by killing the rest of the world. Thank You
.
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| User: "C.Brady" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
02 Dec 2005 04:19:00 AM |
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On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:10:09 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <FPydnanZOoEZNhLenZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, sam fisher
<sam@home.info> wrote:
as I said before, I heard this from a friend.
Well now you heard from a German socialist, who thinks that it is USA's
fault that Germans have the lowest morale overall and one of the
highest unemployment rates of any country in Europe.
And you heard that from Bush, who heard it from God?
National or International, socialism is still socialism, it has the
same end results.
Regards, ---C.B.
"euro" <euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1133455822.171699.210800@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
wrong again it is in general about 33 percent. Only if You have nothing
to deduct and a real gigh income You micht end up at 46 perrcent, but
big companies freelancers and people with high income pay absolutely no
tax since there are tax deductible items on the financial market
available. Please do not spread nonesense written by some American
authors who understand Germany based on hollywood movies and based on
the idea that Germans are by default born with a NAZI mind. This
opinion I find often in the United States of America the home of the
free, who preserve freedom by killing the rest of the world. Thank You
.
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| User: "Eric" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
03 Dec 2005 12:25:49 AM |
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In article <4270p11dcrmki2rs818a3ihtihui2gbj6e@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:10:09 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <FPydnanZOoEZNhLenZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, sam fisher
<sam@home.info> wrote:
as I said before, I heard this from a friend.
Well now you heard from a German socialist, who thinks that it is USA's
fault that Germans have the lowest morale overall and one of the
highest unemployment rates of any country in Europe.
And you heard that from Bush, who heard it from God?
No, recent polls confirmed the morale, and Germany instituted a
government program to try and reverse the low morale in response. The
unemployment stats are also available.
National or International, socialism is still socialism, it has the
same end results.
Regards, ---C.B.
And my regards to you as well.
"euro" <euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1133455822.171699.210800@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
wrong again it is in general about 33 percent. Only if You have nothing
to deduct and a real gigh income You micht end up at 46 perrcent, but
big companies freelancers and people with high income pay absolutely no
tax since there are tax deductible items on the financial market
available. Please do not spread nonesense written by some American
authors who understand Germany based on hollywood movies and based on
the idea that Germans are by default born with a NAZI mind. This
opinion I find often in the United States of America the home of the
free, who preserve freedom by killing the rest of the world. Thank You
.
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| User: "C.Brady" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
04 Dec 2005 02:14:45 AM |
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On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:25:49 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <4270p11dcrmki2rs818a3ihtihui2gbj6e@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:10:09 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <FPydnanZOoEZNhLenZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, sam fisher
<sam@home.info> wrote:
as I said before, I heard this from a friend.
Well now you heard from a German socialist, who thinks that it is USA's
fault that Germans have the lowest morale overall and one of the
highest unemployment rates of any country in Europe.
And you heard that from Bush, who heard it from God?
No, recent polls confirmed the morale, and Germany instituted a
government program to try and reverse the low morale in response.
Any poll attempting to measure "low morale" is problematic.
The very definition of that term, i.e. state of mind would prove to be
highly subjective and arbitrary. For instance, I know of no consensus
whatsoever over the denotation "low morale". Unless you are
possessing unique insight (feel free to establish a yardstick by which
to judge the relative merit of "morale" amongst different countries)
others lack, your claim that Germans have the lowest morale overall is
a bizarre claim.
The unemployment stats are also available.
Germany's unemployment figures are often cited by American
right-wingers to deflect from their own domestic and foreign debacles.
However, if you like, we can discuss and examine unemployment stats as
well. As you know, often the official national numbers are used
despite the fact that they differ fundamentally on what they measure
and how they measure it. For instance, the official German rate
includes people working less than 15 hours a week but who want a
full-time job as unemployed while the headline US figures count anyone
who works for even one hour a week as employed. There are many other
important factors which explain the discrepancies among unemployment
figures, and last but not least what constitutes economic "success".
I look forward to your clarification, i.e. Germany's lowest morale &
highest unemployment figures.
Regards, ---C.B.
National or International, socialism is still socialism, it has the
same end results.
Regards, ---C.B.
And my regards to you as well.
"euro" <euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1133455822.171699.210800@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
wrong again it is in general about 33 percent. Only if You have nothing
to deduct and a real gigh income You micht end up at 46 perrcent, but
big companies freelancers and people with high income pay absolutely no
tax since there are tax deductible items on the financial market
available. Please do not spread nonesense written by some American
authors who understand Germany based on hollywood movies and based on
the idea that Germans are by default born with a NAZI mind. This
opinion I find often in the United States of America the home of the
free, who preserve freedom by killing the rest of the world. Thank You
.
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| User: "euro" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
04 Dec 2005 06:00:56 AM |
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ERIC RICHARDSON, the clean shaven ERIC will do anything to discriminate
and bully around others. He has never been to Germany but knows the
problems and the answers to them. As an American he will do anything to
put Germany into the corner of being a socialist country. Socialism for
Americans is a buzz word and he and his fellows at the MONNIES will not
stop discrimination. What is meant by that ? They will not admit any
of the accusations against the master of the universe. They will defend
him whatever it takes. Thats by the way called true love from A MOONIE
perspective. He will twist around statistics. He will do anything to
proove that the divine principle history part will appear as being the
ultimate answer to a historian who wishes to interprate the human
history. Any other interpretation is not allowed in his mind. His only
weapon is to call someone with a different opinion a liar. Most of the
allegations against his church he calls a lie, but would not come up
with a proof that it is a lie. While he himself calls for proof he will
not proove anything to anybody. Thats what I call a clean shaven. The
man is more than a real bad example and he serves as that for me and my
people who study this phenomena in depth. While it is true that Germany
is facing severe consequences from the globalisation large companies
and banks are playing he will do anything to denounce the German
implementation of democracy and freedom as a socialist dictatorship not
knowing himself what he is talking about. Once caught he will get very
emotional and will call You a liar. A real great personality.
.
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| User: "Eric" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
04 Dec 2005 06:19:55 PM |
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In article <1133697656.891830.48400@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, euro
<euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote:
ERIC RICHARDSON, the clean shaven ERIC will do anything to discriminate
and bully around others. He has never been to Germany
Actually, I have.
but knows the
problems and the answers to them. As an American he will do anything to
put Germany into the corner of being a socialist country.
No, but I think you are. And many problems result from socialist
policies.
Socialism for
Americans is a buzz word and he and his fellows at the MONNIES will not
stop discrimination. What is meant by that ? They will not admit any
of the accusations against the master of the universe. They will defend
him whatever it takes. Thats by the way called true love from A MOONIE
perspective. He will twist around statistics. He will do anything to
proove that the divine principle history part will appear as being the
ultimate answer to a historian who wishes to interprate the human
history. Any other interpretation is not allowed in his mind. His only
weapon is to call someone with a different opinion a liar. Most of the
allegations against his church he calls a lie, but would not come up
with a proof that it is a lie.
Actually, I have been pretty careful to demonstrate either proof of the
lie or asked repeatedly for proof of the allegation. After years of
making the same allegations without furnishing any proof, then we must
assume that those who make them are lying.
While he himself calls for proof he will
not proove anything to anybody. Thats what I call a clean shaven. The
man is more than a real bad example and he serves as that for me and my
people who study this phenomena in depth.
"your people"? Ha ha, that's pretty funny.
While it is true that Germany
is facing severe consequences from the globalisation large companies
and banks are playing he will do anything
Spoken like a socialist Luddite. Thanks for demonstrating tht you are a
socialist.
to denounce the German
implementation of democracy and freedom
I would never ever do that.
as a socialist dictatorship
Never have. Current Germany has some very strong socialist tendencies
and it has been a socialist dictatorship in the past. Those are two
very different statements.
not
knowing himself what he is talking about. Once caught he will get very
emotional and will call You a liar. A real great personality.
This is a 300 word rant attacking me personally in response to a two
sentence statement that Germany has a low morale and high unemployment.
But I am the overly emotional one? Heehee, you are a funny guy.
.
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| User: "Eric" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
04 Dec 2005 05:52:30 PM |
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In article <0495p1ttk7ia5djh504pnkuo5jnmdg3beu@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:25:49 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <4270p11dcrmki2rs818a3ihtihui2gbj6e@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:10:09 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <FPydnanZOoEZNhLenZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, sam fisher
<sam@home.info> wrote:
as I said before, I heard this from a friend.
Well now you heard from a German socialist, who thinks that it is USA's
fault that Germans have the lowest morale overall and one of the
highest unemployment rates of any country in Europe.
And you heard that from Bush, who heard it from God?
No, recent polls confirmed the morale, and Germany instituted a
government program to try and reverse the low morale in response.
Any poll attempting to measure "low morale" is problematic.
The very definition of that term, i.e. state of mind would prove to be
highly subjective and arbitrary. For instance, I know of no consensus
whatsoever over the denotation "low morale". Unless you are
possessing unique insight (feel free to establish a yardstick by which
to judge the relative merit of "morale" amongst different countries)
others lack, your claim that Germans have the lowest morale overall is
a bizarre claim.
Apparently the German government didn't think so. They instituted a
large ad campaign to counter it.
The unemployment stats are also available.
Germany's unemployment figures are often cited by American
right-wingers to deflect from their own domestic and foreign debacles.
However, if you like, we can discuss and examine unemployment stats as
well. As you know, often the official national numbers are used
despite the fact that they differ fundamentally on what they measure
and how they measure it. For instance, the official German rate
includes people working less than 15 hours a week but who want a
full-time job as unemployed while the headline US figures count anyone
who works for even one hour a week as employed. There are many other
important factors which explain the discrepancies among unemployment
figures, and last but not least what constitutes economic "success".
I look forward to your clarification, i.e. Germany's lowest morale &
highest unemployment figures.
Regards, ---C.B.
So, everything is really, really great in Germany. Thanks me for
letting me know.
Didn't the French riots spread over to some German cities?
National or International, socialism is still socialism, it has the
same end results.
Regards, ---C.B.
And my regards to you as well.
"euro" <euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1133455822.171699.210800@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
wrong again it is in general about 33 percent. Only if You have
nothing
to deduct and a real gigh income You micht end up at 46 perrcent, but
big companies freelancers and people with high income pay absolutely
no
tax since there are tax deductible items on the financial market
available. Please do not spread nonesense written by some American
authors who understand Germany based on hollywood movies and based on
the idea that Germans are by default born with a NAZI mind. This
opinion I find often in the United States of America the home of the
free, who preserve freedom by killing the rest of the world. Thank You
.
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| User: "C.Brady" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
05 Dec 2005 02:37:00 AM |
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On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:52:30 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <0495p1ttk7ia5djh504pnkuo5jnmdg3beu@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:25:49 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <4270p11dcrmki2rs818a3ihtihui2gbj6e@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:10:09 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <FPydnanZOoEZNhLenZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, sam fisher
<sam@home.info> wrote:
as I said before, I heard this from a friend.
Well now you heard from a German socialist, who thinks that it is USA's
fault that Germans have the lowest morale overall and one of the
highest unemployment rates of any country in Europe.
And you heard that from Bush, who heard it from God?
No, recent polls confirmed the morale, and Germany instituted a
government program to try and reverse the low morale in response.
Any poll attempting to measure "low morale" is problematic.
The very definition of that term, i.e. state of mind would prove to be
highly subjective and arbitrary. For instance, I know of no consensus
whatsoever over the denotation "low morale". Unless you are
possessing unique insight (feel free to establish a yardstick by which
to judge the relative merit of "morale" amongst different countries)
others lack, your claim that Germans have the lowest morale overall is
a bizarre claim.
Apparently the German government didn't think so. They instituted a
large ad campaign to counter it.
You offered a proposition; not I. My aim has been to criticize your
proposition. You can't evade that criticism by insisting that the
German government didn't think so. As soon as you posted your
assertion on Usenet, it became your responsibility to prove your
position. If you are unwilling to debate in an intelligent, logical
manner, it would be very helpful to state that right up front.
The unemployment stats are also available.
Germany's unemployment figures are often cited by American
right-wingers to deflect from their own domestic and foreign debacles.
However, if you like, we can discuss and examine unemployment stats as
well. As you know, often the official national numbers are used
despite the fact that they differ fundamentally on what they measure
and how they measure it. For instance, the official German rate
includes people working less than 15 hours a week but who want a
full-time job as unemployed while the headline US figures count anyone
who works for even one hour a week as employed. There are many other
important factors which explain the discrepancies among unemployment
figures, and last but not least what constitutes economic "success".
I guess you didn't want to debate unemployment figures after all.
Why am I not surprised. Just another hit & run....
I look forward to your clarification, i.e. Germany's lowest morale &
highest unemployment figures.
Regards, ---C.B.
So, everything is really, really great in Germany.
Surely you don't expect me to defend a position I never took.
Thanks me for letting me know.
Don't thank me. It wasn't meant to be complimentary.
Didn't the French riots spread over to some German cities?
You hop great distances from one topic to another without any logical
connection between them. Please explain.
Regards, ---C.B.
National or International, socialism is still socialism, it has the
same end results.
Regards, ---C.B.
And my regards to you as well.
"euro" <euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1133455822.171699.210800@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
wrong again it is in general about 33 percent. Only if You have
nothing
to deduct and a real gigh income You micht end up at 46 perrcent, but
big companies freelancers and people with high income pay absolutely
no
tax since there are tax deductible items on the financial market
available. Please do not spread nonesense written by some American
authors who understand Germany based on hollywood movies and based on
the idea that Germans are by default born with a NAZI mind. This
opinion I find often in the United States of America the home of the
free, who preserve freedom by killing the rest of the world. Thank You
.
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| User: "Eric" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
05 Dec 2005 10:17:37 AM |
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In article <peu7p19tiqmc2bvj3chmhuaecf6iaq3sf2@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:52:30 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <0495p1ttk7ia5djh504pnkuo5jnmdg3beu@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:25:49 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <4270p11dcrmki2rs818a3ihtihui2gbj6e@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:10:09 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <FPydnanZOoEZNhLenZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, sam fisher
<sam@home.info> wrote:
as I said before, I heard this from a friend.
Well now you heard from a German socialist, who thinks that it is USA's
fault that Germans have the lowest morale overall and one of the
highest unemployment rates of any country in Europe.
And you heard that from Bush, who heard it from God?
No, recent polls confirmed the morale, and Germany instituted a
government program to try and reverse the low morale in response.
Any poll attempting to measure "low morale" is problematic.
The very definition of that term, i.e. state of mind would prove to be
highly subjective and arbitrary. For instance, I know of no consensus
whatsoever over the denotation "low morale". Unless you are
possessing unique insight (feel free to establish a yardstick by which
to judge the relative merit of "morale" amongst different countries)
others lack, your claim that Germans have the lowest morale overall is
a bizarre claim.
Apparently the German government didn't think so. They instituted a
large ad campaign to counter it.
You offered a proposition; not I.
No, I made a statement. It was based on the recent article posted on my
news group that Germany is under criticism for starting an ad campaign
to counter their morale problems which were reported as lower than
other nations.The criticism that they were under is because the ad
campaign is seen by some as echoing the Nazis.
My aim has been to criticize your
proposition.
Really? I could never have guessed.
Well I really don't care enough about it to get into a dogfight. In
fact I really don't have a dog in this at all.
You can't evade that criticism by insisting that the
German government didn't think so.
I am not evading it, I am informing you that people with much greater
authority and expertise, and a much larger budget than either of ours
are spending a great deal of money to counter something that you want
to play semantics with.
As soon as you posted your
assertion on Usenet, it became your responsibility to prove your
position. If you are unwilling to debate in an intelligent, logical
manner, it would be very helpful to state that right up front.
This is from the man that entered this thread with the comment, "And
you heard that from Bush, who heard it from God?" Right? Thanks for the
tip. I will try to be as logical and intelligent as you.
The unemployment stats are also available.
Germany's unemployment figures are often cited by American
right-wingers to deflect from their own domestic and foreign debacles.
However, if you like, we can discuss and examine unemployment stats as
well. As you know, often the official national numbers are used
despite the fact that they differ fundamentally on what they measure
and how they measure it. For instance, the official German rate
includes people working less than 15 hours a week but who want a
full-time job as unemployed while the headline US figures count anyone
who works for even one hour a week as employed. There are many other
important factors which explain the discrepancies among unemployment
figures, and last but not least what constitutes economic "success".
I guess you didn't want to debate unemployment figures after all.
You're right. How perceptive. But if you are really interested in
ejumacating me, prove to me that US employment figures count everyone
who works only one hour a week as fully employed, and that Germany
counts people who work 15 as unemployed.
Why am I not surprised. Just another hit & run....
I look forward to your clarification, i.e. Germany's lowest morale &
highest unemployment figures.
Regards, ---C.B.
So, everything is really, really great in Germany.
Surely you don't expect me to defend a position I never took.
Sorry my mistake. I thought you were defending how good life in Germany
is and were offended that someone said the German people have a lower
morale than their neighbors (it wasn't me, again, I referred you back
to the German government saying so) and that their unemployment is also
higher.
Thanks me for letting me know.
Don't thank me. It wasn't meant to be complimentary.
I thought you were just trying to be helpful.
Didn't the French riots spread over to some German cities?
You hop great distances from one topic to another without any logical
connection between them. Please explain.
Regards, ---C.B.
Having large segments of your population rioting is just another
example of the high-spirited high jinks that run amok in Germany.
That's all.
National or International, socialism is still socialism, it has the
same end results.
Regards, ---C.B.
And my regards to you as well.
"euro" <euroxpoo@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1133455822.171699.210800@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
wrong again it is in general about 33 percent. Only if You have
nothing
to deduct and a real gigh income You micht end up at 46 perrcent,
but
big companies freelancers and people with high income pay
absolutely
no
tax since there are tax deductible items on the financial market
available. Please do not spread nonesense written by some American
authors who understand Germany based on hollywood movies and based
on
the idea that Germans are by default born with a NAZI mind. This
opinion I find often in the United States of America the home of the
free, who preserve freedom by killing the rest of the world. Thank You
.
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| User: "thomsen" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
05 Dec 2005 11:53:15 AM |
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Eric wrote:
Apparently the German government didn't think so. They instituted a
large ad campaign to counter it.
You offered a proposition; not I.
No, I made a statement. It was based on the recent article posted on my
news group that Germany is under criticism for starting an ad campaign
to counter their morale problems which were reported as lower than
other nations.The criticism that they were under is because the ad
campaign is seen by some as echoing the Nazis.
Well, he ad campaign exists, but it was not started by the government.
It is a private initiative. Though to me it looks quite silly, it
certainly is no nazi issue. But there are people who get everything
wrong, because they don't understand anything, and react by reflex.
My aim has been to criticize your
proposition.
Really? I could never have guessed.
Well I really don't care enough about it to get into a dogfight. In
fact I really don't have a dog in this at all.
You can't evade that criticism by insisting that the
German government didn't think so.
Well, as I wrote above, t'was not the government.
I am not evading it, I am informing you that people with much greater
authority and expertise, and a much larger budget than either of ours
are spending a great deal of money to counter something that you want
to play semantics with.
I must take a note on that "playing semantics with" thing. Looks like a
cute argument when you're out of arguments...
As soon as you posted your
assertion on Usenet, it became your responsibility to prove your
position. If you are unwilling to debate in an intelligent, logical
manner, it would be very helpful to state that right up front.
This is from the man that entered this thread with the comment, "And
you heard that from Bush, who heard it from God?" Right? Thanks for the
tip. I will try to be as logical and intelligent as you.
The unemployment stats are also available.
Germany's unemployment figures are often cited by American
right-wingers to deflect from their own domestic and foreign debacles.
However, if you like, we can discuss and examine unemployment stats as
well. As you know, often the official national numbers are used
despite the fact that they differ fundamentally on what they measure
and how they measure it. For instance, the official German rate
includes people working less than 15 hours a week but who want a
full-time job as unemployed while the headline US figures count anyone
who works for even one hour a week as employed. There are many other
important factors which explain the discrepancies among unemployment
figures, and last but not least what constitutes economic "success".
I guess you didn't want to debate unemployment figures after all.
You're right. How perceptive. But if you are really interested in
ejumacating me, prove to me that US employment figures count everyone
who works only one hour a week as fully employed, and that Germany
counts people who work 15 as unemployed.
Why am I not surprised. Just another hit & run....
I look forward to your clarification, i.e. Germany's lowest morale &
highest unemployment figures.
Th fact that German unemployment rates are higher than in other western
countries, as well as Germany's economic difficulties, is for a large
part due to the combined effects of unification - West Germany alone
would compare quite well to other EU countries, and even to the US - our
big enterprises' export statistics are quite well, thanks - and of an
economic policy that overemphasizes the aim of keeping the currency
strong, even if that hampers economic growth. Compare that to Bush's
policy of letting the dollar go down - with positive effects in the
short run. As for the long run, we'll see.
Imagine the US uniting with say Mexico, just to give an image of
economic difference, and then applying a stiff currency and tight budget
policy to the resulting economy ...
Didn't the French riots spread over to some German cities?
You hop great distances from one topic to another without any logical
connection between them. Please explain.
Regards, ---C.B.
Having large segments of your population rioting is just another
example of the high-spirited high jinks that run amok in Germany.
That's all.
Nothing like Watts, L.A. in Germany as yet. Don't confound Germany with
France or Britain. As yet Berlin is not Bradford. (Funny how Thatcherism
didn't help to solve those problems).
National or International, socialism is still socialism, it has the
same end results.
Well, do you really think that the Swedish welfare state or the English
National Health Service is the same as Stalin's Gulag, or the present
Chinese dictatorship (oops, they are going capitalist though staying
totalitarian ...)? Open up your mind just a tiny bit, have a look at
reality, and see how beautifully diverse it is!
regards,
A.
.
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| User: "Eric" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
05 Dec 2005 06:32:51 PM |
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In article <3vjd9bF15n2oiU1@individual.net>, thomsen <a.thomsen@gmx.de>
wrote:
Eric wrote:
Apparently the German government didn't think so. They instituted a
large ad campaign to counter it.
You offered a proposition; not I.
No, I made a statement. It was based on the recent article posted on my
news group that Germany is under criticism for starting an ad campaign
to counter their morale problems which were reported as lower than
other nations.The criticism that they were under is because the ad
campaign is seen by some as echoing the Nazis.
Well, he ad campaign exists, but it was not started by the government.
It is a private initiative.
Here is the link to the original message:
<1132987477.659038.299630@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
It never stated that it was either private or government backed, but it
seemed to me to be government backed. Thanks for the clarification.
Though to me it looks quite silly, it
certainly is no nazi issue. But there are people who get everything
wrong, because they don't understand anything, and react by reflex.
My aim has been to criticize your
proposition.
Really? I could never have guessed.
Well I really don't care enough about it to get into a dogfight. In
fact I really don't have a dog in this at all.
You can't evade that criticism by insisting that the
German government didn't think so.
Well, as I wrote above, t'was not the government.
I am not evading it, I am informing you that people with much greater
authority and expertise, and a much larger budget than either of ours
are spending a great deal of money to counter something that you want
to play semantics with.
I must take a note on that "playing semantics with" thing. Looks like a
cute argument when you're out of arguments...
It's not, I posted about low German morale, he said I must have heard
it from Bush who heard it from God, which was a pretty stupid argument,
and I told him what I based it on. Then he proceeded to argue by
sematics "It all depends on what your definiton of is, is." He is
trying to define an issue out of existence that people have spent a lot
of money and taken action concerning.
As soon as you posted your
assertion on Usenet, it became your responsibility to prove your
position. If you are unwilling to debate in an intelligent, logical
manner, it would be very helpful to state that right up front.
This is from the man that entered this thread with the comment, "And
you heard that from Bush, who heard it from God?" Right? Thanks for the
tip. I will try to be as logical and intelligent as you.
The unemployment stats are also available.
Germany's unemployment figures are often cited by American
right-wingers to deflect from their own domestic and foreign debacles.
However, if you like, we can discuss and examine unemployment stats as
well. As you know, often the official national numbers are used
despite the fact that they differ fundamentally on what they measure
and how they measure it. For instance, the official German rate
includes people working less than 15 hours a week but who want a
full-time job as unemployed while the headline US figures count anyone
who works for even one hour a week as employed. There are many other
important factors which explain the discrepancies among unemployment
figures, and last but not least what constitutes economic "success".
I guess you didn't want to debate unemployment figures after all.
You're right. How perceptive. But if you are really interested in
ejumacating me, prove to me that US employment figures count everyone
who works only one hour a week as fully employed, and that Germany
counts people who work 15 as unemployed.
Why am I not surprised. Just another hit & run....
I look forward to your clarification, i.e. Germany's lowest morale &
highest unemployment figures.
Th fact that German unemployment rates are higher than in other western
countries, as well as Germany's economic difficulties, is for a large
part due to the combined effects of unification - West Germany alone
would compare quite well to other EU countries, and even to the US - our
big enterprises' export statistics are quite well, thanks - and of an
economic policy that overemphasizes the aim of keeping the currency
strong, even if that hampers economic growth.
A reasonable argument... for a while.
Compare that to Bush's
policy of letting the dollar go down - with positive effects in the
short run. As for the long run, we'll see.
Imagine the US uniting with say Mexico, just to give an image of
economic difference, and then applying a stiff currency and tight budget
policy to the resulting economy ...
Didn't the French riots spread over to some German cities?
You hop great distances from one topic to another without any logical
connection between them. Please explain.
Regards, ---C.B.
Having large segments of your population rioting is just another
example of the high-spirited high jinks that run amok in Germany.
That's all.
Nothing like Watts, L.A. in Germany as yet. Don't confound Germany with
France or Britain. As yet Berlin is not Bradford. (Funny how Thatcherism
didn't help to solve those problems).
National or International, socialism is still socialism, it has the
same end results.
Well, do you really think that the Swedish welfare state or the English
National Health Service is the same as Stalin's Gulag, or the present
Chinese dictatorship (oops, they are going capitalist though staying
totalitarian ...)?
Nope.
Open up your mind just a tiny bit, have a look at
reality, and see how beautifully diverse it is!
regards,
A.
Thanks for the tip.
.
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| User: "C.Brady" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
06 Dec 2005 03:20:36 AM |
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On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:32:51 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <3vjd9bF15n2oiU1@individual.net>, thomsen <a.thomsen@gmx.de>
wrote:
Eric wrote:
Apparently the German government didn't think so. They instituted a
large ad campaign to counter it.
You offered a proposition; not I.
No, I made a statement. It was based on the recent article posted on my
news group that Germany is under criticism for starting an ad campaign
to counter their morale problems which were reported as lower than
other nations.The criticism that they were under is because the ad
campaign is seen by some as echoing the Nazis.
Well, he ad campaign exists, but it was not started by the government.
It is a private initiative.
Here is the link to the original message:
<1132987477.659038.299630@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
It never stated that it was either private or government backed, but it
seemed to me to be government backed. Thanks for the clarification.
Wrong. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that
you merely forgot your statement as opposed to deliberately distorting
the facts. Below is your quote:
[quote]
Apparently the German government didn't think so. They instituted a
large ad campaign to counter it.
[/quote]
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.german/browse_thread/thread/eee314d7ce26c265/d2d860343bc828b7?hl=en#d2d860343bc828b7
C.B.
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| User: "euro" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
06 Dec 2005 07:14:15 AM |
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Another proof that ERIC is not serious as a person. He is clean shaven
thats all.
.
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| User: "Eric" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
06 Dec 2005 07:39:56 AM |
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In article <4dlap1d8dbutoovr11lqek6212p7mvt3b1@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:32:51 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <3vjd9bF15n2oiU1@individual.net>, thomsen <a.thomsen@gmx.de>
wrote:
Eric wrote:
Apparently the German government didn't think so. They instituted a
large ad campaign to counter it.
You offered a proposition; not I.
No, I made a statement. It was based on the recent article posted on my
news group that Germany is under criticism for starting an ad campaign
to counter their morale problems which were reported as lower than
other nations.The criticism that they were under is because the ad
campaign is seen by some as echoing the Nazis.
Well, he ad campaign exists, but it was not started by the government.
It is a private initiative.
Here is the link to the original message:
<1132987477.659038.299630@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
It never stated that it was either private or government backed, but it
seemed to me to be government backed. Thanks for the clarification.
Wrong. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that
you merely forgot your statement as opposed to deliberately distorting
the facts. Below is your quote:
[quote]
Apparently the German government didn't think so. They instituted a
large ad campaign to counter it.
[/quote]
And what I just did is say that I thought it was government backed but
on review of the article it didn't say either way. I thanked the person
who said it was a private study for the clarification.
Is English your second language?
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.german/browse_thread/thread/eee314d7ce26c265/d2d860343bc828b7?hl=en#d2d860343bc828b7
C.B.
.
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| User: "Kleuskes & Moos" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
06 Dec 2005 08:54:17 AM |
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On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 22:39:56 +0900, Eric wrote:
<snippage occurs>
Apparently the German government didn't think so. They instituted a
large ad campaign to counter it.
<snip>
It never stated that it was either private or government backed, but
it seemed to me to be government backed. Thanks for the clarification.
<snip>
And what I just did is say that I thought it was government backed but
on review of the article it didn't say either way.
See above. You did and got corrected on it.
I thanked the person who said it was a private study for the
clarification.
That's a _very_ nice way of wiggling out when caught bullshitting.
Is English your second language?
It's my third and even I know the expression "backpedalling". It's
disingenious to do so when the evidence its quoted in the same post.
At least <snip> it, or suffer to look like an idiot.
.
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| User: "C.Brady" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
06 Dec 2005 02:46:08 AM |
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On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 01:17:37 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <peu7p19tiqmc2bvj3chmhuaecf6iaq3sf2@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:52:30 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <0495p1ttk7ia5djh504pnkuo5jnmdg3beu@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:25:49 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <4270p11dcrmki2rs818a3ihtihui2gbj6e@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:10:09 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <FPydnanZOoEZNhLenZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, sam fisher
<sam@home.info> wrote:
as I said before, I heard this from a friend.
Well now you heard from a German socialist, who thinks that it is USA's
fault that Germans have the lowest morale overall and one of the
highest unemployment rates of any country in Europe.
And you heard that from Bush, who heard it from God?
No, recent polls confirmed the morale, and Germany instituted a
government program to try and reverse the low morale in response.
Any poll attempting to measure "low morale" is problematic.
The very definition of that term, i.e. state of mind would prove to be
highly subjective and arbitrary. For instance, I know of no consensus
whatsoever over the denotation "low morale". Unless you are
possessing unique insight (feel free to establish a yardstick by which
to judge the relative merit of "morale" amongst different countries)
others lack, your claim that Germans have the lowest morale overall is
a bizarre claim.
Apparently the German government didn't think so. They instituted a
large ad campaign to counter it.
You offered a proposition; not I.
No, I made a statement.
Proposition ==> (logic) a statement that affirms or denies something
and is either true or false.
It was based on the recent article posted on my
news group that Germany is under criticism for starting an ad campaign
to counter their morale problems which were reported as lower than
other nations.
You posted an assertion based on one article that you read somewhere
without ever bothering to verify the accuracy of the information. Once
you were questioned on the authenticity of your assertions, you choose
to hide behind the "the information did not originate with me".
Have you not been on Usenet long enough to know that one ought to be
prepared to assume responsibility for the argument one presents?
The criticism that they were under is because the ad
campaign is seen by some as echoing the Nazis.
I read the same article without giving it any credence.
Do you often except at face value anything which is printed?
Try being more discerning and you just may spare NG's from future
drivel.
My aim has been to criticize your
proposition.
Really? I could never have guessed.
That's not much of a rebuttal.
I am open to reason and logic. You provide neither.
Well I really don't care enough about it to get into a dogfight. In
fact I really don't have a dog in this at all.
You spread misinformation, and when challenged you refuse to provide a
reasoned reply because you don't have a _dog_ in this.
You can't evade that criticism by insisting that the
German government didn't think so.
I am not evading it, I am informing you that people with much greater
authority and expertise, and a much larger budget than either of ours
are spending a great deal of money to counter something that you want
to play semantics with.
Appeal to Argumentum ad populum & Argumentum ad lazarum.
Please develop a coherent counter argument. On second thought, that's
not very likely.....
As soon as you posted your
assertion on Usenet, it became your responsibility to prove your
position. If you are unwilling to debate in an intelligent, logical
manner, it would be very helpful to state that right up front.
This is from the man that entered this thread with the comment, "And
you heard that from Bush, who heard it from God?" Right?
You presume too much. I'm not a _he_. Not that my gender is even
marginally germane to the subject at issue. Just one more example of
you taking liberties with too much confidence without verification or
evidence. Translation: it would behoove you to argue the merits of
this case and not engage in mere speculations.
Thanks for the tip. I will try to be as logical and intelligent as you.
Still dancing around the evidence issue, aren't you?
The unemployment stats are also available.
Germany's unemployment figures are often cited by American
right-wingers to deflect from their own domestic and foreign debacles.
However, if you like, we can discuss and examine unemployment stats as
well. As you know, often the official national numbers are used
despite the fact that they differ fundamentally on what they measure
and how they measure it. For instance, the official German rate
includes people working less than 15 hours a week but who want a
full-time job as unemployed while the headline US figures count anyone
who works for even one hour a week as employed. There are many other
important factors which explain the discrepancies among unemployment
figures, and last but not least what constitutes economic "success".
I guess you didn't want to debate unemployment figures after all.
You're right. How perceptive.
It was YOU who first raised the issue of Germany's unemployment
figures. Please refrain from posting if you are unwilling/unable to
debate your statements.
But if you are really interested in ejumacating me,
Say again - in English this time.
prove to me that US employment figures count everyone
who works only one hour a week as fully employed, and that Germany
counts people who work 15 as unemployed.
LOL - That's a good one. You're asking me to provide supporting
evidence for my assertions. Couldn't I just say I read it somewhere
and let it go at that? After all, isn't that your standard modus
operandi…? (Actually, I was hoping you would ask).
HIGH GERMAN UNEMPLOYMENT: REPORTING IS HALF THE PROBLEM
http://maxspeak.org/mt/archives/001616.html
It is also worth noting that unemployment is measured differently in
Germany than in the United States. If the U.S. method were used, the
unemployment rate for all Germany would be close to 8.0 percent, and
the unemployment rate for former West Germany would be approximately
6.0 percent, almost the same as the rate in the United States.
New York Times, September 23, 2002, page A8
http://query.nytimes.com/search/abstract?res=F10C16FF3F5D0C708EDDA00894DA404482
Many independent economists accept that the true level of unemployment
in the United States of America is at least double the official
figure.
http://www.efn.org/~rolanda/discovering/chapter9.html
U.S. Unemployment Rate -- Tops E.U.
http://www.thinkandask.com/news/jobs.html
Please let me know if you would like additional resources.
[...]
So, everything is really, really great in Germany.
Surely you don't expect me to defend a position I never took.
Sorry my mistake. I thought you were defending how good life in Germany
is and were offended that someone said the German people have a lower
morale than their neighbors (it wasn't me, again, I referred you back
to the German government saying so) and that their unemployment is also
higher.
Thanks me for letting me know.
Don't thank me. It wasn't meant to be complimentary.
I thought you were just trying to be helpful.
Didn't the French riots spread over to some German cities?
You hop great distances from one topic to another without any logical
connection between them. Please explain.
Regards, ---C.B.
Having large segments of your population rioting is just another
example of the high-spirited high jinks that run amok in Germany.
That's all.
How predictable (your response) and yet appropriate considering our
expertise in dealing with riots in Gods country. Alas, I must admit
that I take a certain misanthropic glee in comparative
trivialization?) - the word escapes me right now, but you get my
drift. So before you salivate too much over those riots, let's put
things in perspective, shall we…
riots in France
nights: 20 (Oct 27-Nov 16)
deaths: 1
injuries: 126 (police & firefighters)
property damage: 200 million Euros (includes torched cars)
fires set: [n/a]
vehicles torched: 8,973
arrests: 2,888
govt response: curfew, state of emergency
riots in Los Angeles
days: 6 (April 29-May 4)
deaths: 50-60
injuries: 2,000
property damage: $800 million - $1 billion
fires set: 3,600
buildings destroyed: 1,100
arrests: 10,000
govt response: curfew, California National Guard, federal troops
Regards, ---C.B.
.
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| User: "Eric" |
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| Title: Re: Berlin doctors strike for higher wages |
06 Dec 2005 08:21:28 AM |
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In article <oqcap1d9935nr9judfn60qa7c1vi4it9rk@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 01:17:37 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <peu7p19tiqmc2bvj3chmhuaecf6iaq3sf2@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:52:30 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <0495p1ttk7ia5djh504pnkuo5jnmdg3beu@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:25:49 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <4270p11dcrmki2rs818a3ihtihui2gbj6e@4ax.com>, C.Brady
<c.h.brady@comcastREMOVE.net> wrote:
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:10:09 +0900, Eric <lb@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <FPydnanZOoEZNhLenZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, sam
fisher
<sam@home.info> wrote:
as I said before, I heard this from a friend.
Well now you heard from a German socialist, who thinks that it is
USA's
fault that Germans have the lowest morale overall and one of the
highest unemployment rates of any country in Europe.
And you heard that from Bush, who heard it from God?
No, recent polls confirmed the morale, and Germany instituted a
government program to try and reverse the low morale in response.
Any poll attempting to measure "low morale" is problematic.
The very definition of that term, i.e. state of mind would prove to be
highly subjective and arbitrary. For instance, I know of no consensus
whatsoever over the denotation "low morale". Unless you are
possessing unique insight (feel free to establish a yardstick by which
to judge the relative merit of "morale" amongst different countries)
others lack, your claim that Germans have the lowest morale overall is
a bizarre claim.
Apparently the German government didn't think so. They instituted a
large ad campaign to counter it.
You offered a proposition; not I.
No, I made a statement.
Proposition ==> (logic) a statement that affirms or denies something
and is either true or false.
Wow, thanks. Here's my dictionary definition of proposition: 1 a (1) :
something offered for consideration or acceptance : PROPOSAL (2) : a
request for sexual intercourse b : the point to be discussed or
maintained in argument usually stated in sentence form near the outset
I was a little worried that you were making the 1a definition.
But I never intended to start a discussion or argument. You apparently
assume you can make it something it was not, but I'm old enough not to
fall for your confrontational manner.
It was based on the recent article posted on my
news group that Germany is under criticism for starting an ad campaign
to counter their morale problems which were reported as lower than
other nations.
You posted an assertion based on one article that you read somewhere
without ever bothering to verify the accuracy of the information. Once
you were questioned on the authenticity of your assertions, you choose
to hide behind the "the information did not originate with me".
Tell me what originated with you? Don't be silly, I just told you what
I was referring to. You can take it or leave it, I don't really care,
except to laugh at you.
Have you not been on Usenet long enough to know that one ought to be
prepared to assume responsibility for the argument one presents?
Besides the fact that I wasn't and never intended to present an
argument, you must be a newbie on Usenet if you think that those are
the rules people live by here.
The criticism that they were under is because the ad
campaign is seen by some as echoing the Nazis.
I read the same article without giving it any credence.
Didn't give what any credence?
Do you often except at face value anything which is printed?
Try being more discerning and you just may spare NG's from future
drivel.
Are you trying to be fatuous or does it just come natural?
My aim has been to criticize your
proposition.
Really? I could never have guessed.
That's not much of a rebuttal.
I am open to reason and logic. You provide neither.
I really don't care enough about this particular topic to humor you.
Well I really don't care enough about it to get into a dogfight. In
fact I really don't have a dog in this at all.
You spread misinformation, and when challenged you refuse to provide a
reasoned reply because you don't have a _dog_ in this.
You can't evade that criticism by insisting that the
German government didn't think so.
I am not evading it, I am informing you that people with much greater
authority and expertise, and a much larger budget than either of ours
are spending a great deal of money to c | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
