<tomaxo@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1137982766.775090.304700@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Zigler wrote:

<tomaxo@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1137907098.092332.158100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

Rick Hohensee wrote:

In article <bDAAf.1265$CC1.8162@news.uswest.net>,
Zigler <reply@thegroup.please> wrote:

***** McCain... I have long respected the guy as a person, and I may
have
even voted for him, given lesser options, but as long as he condones
the
slaughter of innocent civilians (in countries not even at war with
the
US)
and believes that thousands of Pakistanis marching the streets
chanting
"DEATH TO AMERICA" makes us safer, then he is a goddmamn fool like
all
the
rest, and is part of the problem, not the solution.

DEATH TO AMERICA

Sad.

He's a good Republican soldier. He takes his orders from the White
House.
That's what good soldiers do. That's not what good Senators do. He's a
war
hero, in a war he shouldn't have been in. He's not a leader.


--

Rick (Richard Allen) Hohensee Party of one
candidate, President of the United States of America
humbubba@smart.net Maryland, USA
Ground troops out of Iraq Put the CIA under INS
Semi-legalize drugs Prosecute Bush Tighten the borders
Isolate Israel Tax churches halve military aquisitions
platform http://www.smart.net/~humbubba/platform
Hohensee-Feingold Amendment http://www.smart.net/~humbubba

You guys can say what you will about McCain, but there is an important
message that Democrats should note in the poll result.

My interpretation of the poll is that McCain is percieved as the more
centrist of the two potential candidates. In my opinion, the
Democrats' best bet in '08 in Evan Bayh. Not only is he a very popular
Democratic Senator from a Red state (Indiana), but he was also a very
popular Governor of that same state.

As Republicans will likely (Stupidly) allow the neo-con machinery to
destroy McCain's chances at being their nominee, the Dem's have a very
big chance of gaining that huge portion of unrepresented Americans at
the center by running a centrist.

Additionally, an Indiana Democrat would have strong appeal, not only in
Red-state Indiana, but in the mid-west states of Ohio, Iowa and
Missouri too.

I think you need to look deeper into McCain's record before you
discount him so casually. He is a politician with a lot of guts in my
book.

like I said, from what I knew hitherto (hitherto?), I had only respect
for
McCain, up until his condoning the disgraceful and inexcusable US
military
blunder in Pakistan of late. His comments did not seem to be in
accordance
with his anti-torture logic. Believing that trading (supposedly) 4 al
Qaeda
operatives for over a dozen innocent civilians is going to quell
anti-American sentiment and terrorism is just utterly absurd; it can only
worsen the problem.

O.K., you are making a point about the wisdom of strategic policy he
embraces. That's a legitimate dissagreement, and I'm not going to try
to convince you of the rightness or wrongness of his position on the
matter (especially since I haven't seen the quote you are refering
too).

What I will say though, is McCain carries a credibility on military
matters than can be very effective when it comes to pulling for a more
rational policy. While often malligned (incorrectly) by many as a "do
nothing", President Eisenhower actually accomplished a great deal for
peace than a man of lesser credibility would have been able to
accomplish. Who else could have allowed America to, for the first time
in it's history, end a war through negotiated settlement (as he did in
Korea) and may well have prevented World War III. Who else could have
the legitimacy to stand before us as the Republican President, and tell
us to beware of the "military industrial complex".

I'm not supporting McCain because I think he's perfect. I'm proposing
McCain, because he is in a rare and unique position to effect positive
change. It is often, ironically, the exact opposite party that effects
the changes fought for by the other. Reagan or Bush would never have
been able to effect welfare reform without it causing riots, for
example, but Clinton could accomplish it, due to his credibiliity with
poor people.

McCain's views do not match my own, but I believe him to be of enough
confidence to work with those accross the aisle when good ideas are
presented. It is for this same reason I would support and Evan Bayh
type of Moderate on the Democratic side, if the Democrats should have
the wisdom to nominate one.

If Republicans nominate another Bush-type corporate lacky instead of
McCain, I'll strongly support any sensible moderate candidate the
Democrats present.

Yeah, I know I get a little passionate (outraged) about the reckless
slaughter of innocents, especially when it is condoned as "collateral
damage", let alone in a country not at war with the US...

But here's the
deal--and I think I am more or less in accordance with your response--when
it comes to politics and government, people get all wrapped up in polarizing
differences in view points and minimize thre basic character of the
individual far too much. This is why a lot of people respect politicians
like McCain, even when they disagree with his perspective on things, because
he seems to have a good deal of character. Now if you compare him to someone
like Bush or Cheney, it seems obvious to some of us, at least, that these
characters are basically bankrupt in the character department; to me that is
an understatement.

Oh, well. Like I said, the more folks chanting "DEATH TO AMERICA", the
better off we'll all be, right?

had the audacity to say in alt.politics.bush:

Winston Smith, American Patriot wrote:

tomaxo@aol.com wrote in
news:1137907098.092332.158100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

Rick Hohensee wrote:

In article <bDAAf.1265$CC1.8162@news.uswest.net>,
Zigler <reply@thegroup.please> wrote:

***** McCain... I have long respected the guy as a person, and I
may have even voted for him, given lesser options, but as long as
he condones the slaughter of innocent civilians (in countries not
even at war with the US) and believes that thousands of
Pakistanis marching the streets chanting "DEATH TO AMERICA" makes
us safer, then he is a goddmamn fool like all the rest, and is
part of the problem, not the solution.

DEATH TO AMERICA

Sad.

He's a good Republican soldier. He takes his orders from the White
House. That's what good soldiers do. That's not what good Senators
do. He's a war hero, in a war he shouldn't have been in. He's not
a leader.


--

Rick (Richard Allen) Hohensee Party of one
candidate, President of the United States of America
humbubba@smart.net Maryland, USA
Ground troops out of Iraq Put the CIA under INS
Semi-legalize drugs Prosecute Bush Tighten the borders
Isolate Israel Tax churches halve military aquisitions
platform http://www.smart.net/~humbubba/platform
Hohensee-Feingold Amendment http://www.smart.net/~humbubba

You guys can say what you will about McCain, but there is an
important message that Democrats should note in the poll result.

My interpretation of the poll is that McCain is percieved as the
more centrist of the two potential candidates. In my opinion, the
Democrats' best bet in '08 in Evan Bayh. Not only is he a very
popular Democratic Senator from a Red state (Indiana), but he was
also a very popular Governor of that same state.

As Republicans will likely (Stupidly) allow the neo-con machinery
to destroy McCain's chances at being their nominee, the Dem's have
a very big chance of gaining that huge portion of unrepresented
Americans at the center by running a centrist.

Additionally, an Indiana Democrat would have strong appeal, not
only in Red-state Indiana, but in the mid-west states of Ohio, Iowa
and Missouri too.

I think you need to look deeper into McCain's record before you
discount him so casually. He is a politician with a lot of guts in
my book.

The Senator from Arizona John McCain
http://hume.realisticpolitics.com/mccain.html

Here's a number of facts the blog you site left out:

McCain fought for campaign finance reform with Russ Feingold
McCain has criticised this administrations policies in Iraq
McCain successfully pushed for a reversal in policy by this
administration regarding the torture ban.
McCain met with Cindy Shehan

As for his being a tool for the Bush camp...then why was it his speach
on the Senate floor that sank the anti-gay marriage legislation Bush
favored.

As for his being a tool for the military industrial complex, try this
quote out for size:

"We have unsustainable defense spending," said McCain, a chief
proponent of military acquisition reform. "Refurbishment or
replacement sooner than planned is putting further pressure on DOD's
investment accounts. We cannot sustain the number of weapons programs
that are in the program of record."
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20051115-093116-3176r

You left out that McCain was one of the Keating Five, and his coming to
campaign finance reform was one prompted by humiliation.

The general question though is:


Is McCain a follower or a leader?

Can he form the order, or does he merely execute well the order given to
him?

He grew up under a dad who was a high-ranking military officer, so did
son move to the bark of his dad, and did McCain develop that type of
personality?

Some people are meant to implement the details, while others are good at
designing them first.

Some people are meant to be president, while others excel at aiding him.

--
http://hume.realisticpolitics.com/


The real danger to the future of humanity is the preference
for surrendering to fear, superstition, and faith
in absolutist belief systems, and so to submit to these
willingly and to the control of those demagogues who
make use of these, rather than preferring
to reason with one's own mind.

--
http://hume.realisticpolitics.com/


The real danger to the future of humanity is the preference
for surrendering to fear, superstition, and faith
in absolutist belief systems, and so to submit to these
willingly and to the control of those demagogues who
make use of these, rather than preferring
to reason with one's own mind.