Bill Rood wrote:

Rich Travsky wrote:

Bill Rood wrote:

Charlie Edmondson wrote:

mimus wrote:

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 07:32:34 -0500, Paul F. Dietz wrote:

Culture Warrior Melanie wrote:

The real story is, a Purdue University engineer and National Medal
of Technology winner says he`s found a way to replace gasoline with
-- get this -- water, but the U.S. Department of Energy is now
standing in his way.

Sigh. This doesn't replace gasoline with water

Yes, actually, it does. But see below.

, it replaces it with
aluminum alloy. Much energy is needed to make aluminum, so the whole
idea makes very little sense.

Gallium catalyst. Expensive and toxic (same as with the
platinum-based catalytic converters). A cheaper and safer catalyst is
needed.

No, the basic process is h2o + Al -> h2 + AlO (exact ratios not
accounted for...) so what you do is strip the oxygen from the water by
combining it with aluminum, which yields hydrogen. Aparently, the
gallium is just there to prevent the surface layer of Al03? from forming
to poison the reaction, so it just flakes off instead...

However, let's keep in mind that the production of elemental aluminum is
very energy intensive. That's why recyclers pay relatively high prices
for aluminum. The h2o in the above reaction is not the energy source or
the costly portion. The Al is the energy source, and the reactant you'll
have to pay for when you refuel your vehicle.

This is similar to the hydrogen fuel-cell concept, in that it is NOT an
energy source, but a transport mechanism. You still have to pay for the
energy that went into the production of the aluminum, and every joule of
energy you purchase in the form of elemental aluminum is going to cost
more than a similar joule in the form of gasoline.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070518163146.htm

A Purdue University engineer has developed a method that uses an aluminum alloy
to extract hydrogen from water for running fuel cells or internal combustion
engines, and the technique could be used to replace gasoline.

The method makes it unnecessary to store or transport hydrogen - two major
challenges in creating a hydrogen economy, said Jerry Woodall, a distinguished
professor of electrical and computer engineering at Purdue who invented the
process.

"The hydrogen is generated on demand, so you only produce as much as you need
when you need it," said Woodall, who presented research findings detailing how
the system works during a recent energy symposium at Purdue.
...
The technology could be used to drive small internal combustion engines in various
applications, including portable emergency generators, lawn mowers and chain saws.
The process could, in theory, also be used to replace gasoline for cars and
trucks, he said.

Hydrogen is generated spontaneously when water is added to pellets of the alloy,
which is made of aluminum and a metal called gallium.
...
"When water is added to the pellets, the aluminum in the solid alloy reacts because
it has a strong attraction to the oxygen in the water," Woodall said.

This reaction splits the oxygen and hydrogen contained in water, releasing hydrogen
in the process.

The gallium is critical to the process because it hinders the formation of a skin
normally created on aluminum's surface after oxidation. This skin usually prevents
oxygen from reacting with aluminum, acting as a barrier. Preventing the skin's
formation allows the reaction to continue until all of the aluminum is used.
...
Woodall said that because the technology makes it possible to use hydrogen instead
of gasoline to run internal combustion engines it could be used for cars and trucks.
In order for the technology to be economically competitive with gasoline, however,
the cost of recycling aluminum oxide must be reduced, he said.

"Right now it costs more than $1 a pound to buy aluminum, and, at that price, you
can't deliver a product at the equivalent of $3 per gallon of gasoline," Woodall
said.

I believe that's what I said. The aluminum costs more than gasoline, at

This backs it up.

least at present. That could change in the future, but possibly not.
Increased fuel efficiency can keep the cost of gasoline down by reducing
demand.

However, the cost of aluminum could be reduced by recycling it from the alumina
using a process called fused salt electrolysis. The aluminum could be produced at
competitive prices if the recycling process were carried out with electricity
generated by a nuclear power plant or windmills.

In which case the nuclear plants or windmills won't be generating
electricity.

Why?

Because the electricity would not
need to be distributed on the power grid, it would be less costly than power
produced
by plants connected to the grid,

What about the transport cost of shipping the aluminum? Why is it
cheaper than simply shipping liquid hydrogen from hydrolysis, which
apparently takes half the energy input that converting AlO to Al does
(based on statements below).

That's covered in "the cost of aluminum could be reduced by..." since transportation
is after all part of the cost.

and the generators could be located in remote
locations, which would be particularly important for a nuclear reactor to ease
political and social concerns, Woodall said.
...
Even at the current cost of aluminum, however, the method would be economically
competitive with gasoline if the hydrogen were used to run future fuel cells.

"Using pure hydrogen, fuel cell systems run at an overall efficiency of 75 percent,
compared to 40 percent using hydrogen extracted from fossil fuels and with 25
percent
for internal combustion engines," Woodall said. "Therefore, when and if fuel cells
become economically viable, our method would compete with gasoline at $3 per gallon
even if aluminum costs more than a dollar per pound."
...
"Most people don't realize how energy intensive aluminum is," Woodall said. "For
every pound of aluminum you get more than two kilowatt hours of energy in the form
of hydrogen combustion and more than two kilowatt hours of heat from the reaction
of aluminum with water.

OK, so half the energy output is hydrogen combustion in a fuel cell and
half is heat from the h2o + Al => h2 + AlO + heat reaction? How is the
heat energy to be used, or is it simply free energy (entropy)?

The hydrogen is what's wanted - gasoline engines put out a lot of heat too - that's
why cars have radiators.

A midsize car with a full tank of aluminum-gallium pellets,

which amounts to about 350 pounds of aluminum, could take a 350-mile trip and it
would cost $60, assuming the alumina is converted back to aluminum on-site at a
nuclear power plant.

"How does this compare with conventional technology? Well, if I put gasoline in a
tank, I get six kilowatt hours per pound, or about two and a half times the energy
than I get for a pound of aluminum. So I need about two and a half times the weight
of aluminum to get the same energy output, but I eliminate gasoline entirely, and I
am using a resource that is cheap and abundant in the United States. If only the
energy of the generated hydrogen is used, then the aluminum-gallium alloy would
require about the same space as a tank of gasoline, so no extra room would be
needed,
and the added weight would be the equivalent of an extra passenger, albeit a pretty
large extra passenger."
...

I'm not saying such technology is impossible, just that there's a hell
of a lot of development work to do, and even if aluminum fuel could
eventually be cheaper than gasoline, why wouldn't plain old hydrogen be
even cheaper?

Ok, YOU sit in a multi car pileup of hyrodgen fueled cars and get back to us on
what it's like ;)

The major point is that both aluminum and hydrogen are not naturally
occurring resources and take large energy inputs to produce. They are
both transport mechanisms, not energy sources, as the above article
points out when talking about nuclear plants and windmills. I'm not sure
I want a proliferation of nuclear plants even in remote areas. Chernobyl
fallout hit other countries of Europe. How many windmills are we talking
about to fuel all US transportation needs?

Bill Rood wrote:

Rich Travsky wrote:

Bill Rood wrote:

Charlie Edmondson wrote:

mimus wrote:

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 07:32:34 -0500, Paul F. Dietz wrote:

Culture Warrior Melanie wrote:

The real story is, a Purdue University engineer and National Medal
of Technology winner says he`s found a way to replace gasoline with
-- get this -- water, but the U.S. Department of Energy is now
standing in his way.

Sigh. This doesn't replace gasoline with water

Yes, actually, it does. But see below.

, it replaces it with
aluminum alloy. Much energy is needed to make aluminum, so the whole
idea makes very little sense.

Gallium catalyst. Expensive and toxic (same as with the
platinum-based catalytic converters). A cheaper and safer catalyst is
needed.

No, the basic process is h2o + Al -> h2 + AlO (exact ratios not
accounted for...) so what you do is strip the oxygen from the water by
combining it with aluminum, which yields hydrogen. Aparently, the
gallium is just there to prevent the surface layer of Al03? from forming
to poison the reaction, so it just flakes off instead...

However, let's keep in mind that the production of elemental aluminum is
very energy intensive. That's why recyclers pay relatively high prices
for aluminum. The h2o in the above reaction is not the energy source or
the costly portion. The Al is the energy source, and the reactant you'll
have to pay for when you refuel your vehicle.

This is similar to the hydrogen fuel-cell concept, in that it is NOT an
energy source, but a transport mechanism. You still have to pay for the
energy that went into the production of the aluminum, and every joule of
energy you purchase in the form of elemental aluminum is going to cost
more than a similar joule in the form of gasoline.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070518163146.htm

A Purdue University engineer has developed a method that uses an aluminum alloy
to extract hydrogen from water for running fuel cells or internal combustion
engines, and the technique could be used to replace gasoline.

The method makes it unnecessary to store or transport hydrogen - two major
challenges in creating a hydrogen economy, said Jerry Woodall, a distinguished
professor of electrical and computer engineering at Purdue who invented the
process.

"The hydrogen is generated on demand, so you only produce as much as you need
when you need it," said Woodall, who presented research findings detailing how
the system works during a recent energy symposium at Purdue.
...
The technology could be used to drive small internal combustion engines in various
applications, including portable emergency generators, lawn mowers and chain saws.
The process could, in theory, also be used to replace gasoline for cars and
trucks, he said.

Hydrogen is generated spontaneously when water is added to pellets of the alloy,
which is made of aluminum and a metal called gallium.
...
"When water is added to the pellets, the aluminum in the solid alloy reacts because
it has a strong attraction to the oxygen in the water," Woodall said.

This reaction splits the oxygen and hydrogen contained in water, releasing hydrogen
in the process.

The gallium is critical to the process because it hinders the formation of a skin
normally created on aluminum's surface after oxidation. This skin usually prevents
oxygen from reacting with aluminum, acting as a barrier. Preventing the skin's
formation allows the reaction to continue until all of the aluminum is used.
...
Woodall said that because the technology makes it possible to use hydrogen instead
of gasoline to run internal combustion engines it could be used for cars and trucks.
In order for the technology to be economically competitive with gasoline, however,
the cost of recycling aluminum oxide must be reduced, he said.

"Right now it costs more than $1 a pound to buy aluminum, and, at that price, you
can't deliver a product at the equivalent of $3 per gallon of gasoline," Woodall
said.

I believe that's what I said. The aluminum costs more than gasoline, at

This backs it up.

least at present. That could change in the future, but possibly not.
Increased fuel efficiency can keep the cost of gasoline down by reducing
demand.

However, the cost of aluminum could be reduced by recycling it from the alumina
using a process called fused salt electrolysis. The aluminum could be produced at
competitive prices if the recycling process were carried out with electricity
generated by a nuclear power plant or windmills.

In which case the nuclear plants or windmills won't be generating
electricity.

Why?

Because the electricity would not
need to be distributed on the power grid, it would be less costly than power
produced
by plants connected to the grid,

What about the transport cost of shipping the aluminum? Why is it
cheaper than simply shipping liquid hydrogen from hydrolysis, which
apparently takes half the energy input that converting AlO to Al does
(based on statements below).

That's covered in "the cost of aluminum could be reduced by..." since transportation
is after all part of the cost.

and the generators could be located in remote
locations, which would be particularly important for a nuclear reactor to ease
political and social concerns, Woodall said.
...
Even at the current cost of aluminum, however, the method would be economically
competitive with gasoline if the hydrogen were used to run future fuel cells.

"Using pure hydrogen, fuel cell systems run at an overall efficiency of 75 percent,
compared to 40 percent using hydrogen extracted from fossil fuels and with 25
percent
for internal combustion engines," Woodall said. "Therefore, when and if fuel cells
become economically viable, our method would compete with gasoline at $3 per gallon
even if aluminum costs more than a dollar per pound."
...
"Most people don't realize how energy intensive aluminum is," Woodall said. "For
every pound of aluminum you get more than two kilowatt hours of energy in the form
of hydrogen combustion and more than two kilowatt hours of heat from the reaction
of aluminum with water.

OK, so half the energy output is hydrogen combustion in a fuel cell and
half is heat from the h2o + Al => h2 + AlO + heat reaction? How is the
heat energy to be used, or is it simply free energy (entropy)?

The hydrogen is what's wanted - gasoline engines put out a lot of heat too - that's
why cars have radiators.

A midsize car with a full tank of aluminum-gallium pellets,

which amounts to about 350 pounds of aluminum, could take a 350-mile trip and it
would cost $60, assuming the alumina is converted back to aluminum on-site at a
nuclear power plant.

"How does this compare with conventional technology? Well, if I put gasoline in a
tank, I get six kilowatt hours per pound, or about two and a half times the energy
than I get for a pound of aluminum. So I need about two and a half times the weight
of aluminum to get the same energy output, but I eliminate gasoline entirely, and I
am using a resource that is cheap and abundant in the United States. If only the
energy of the generated hydrogen is used, then the aluminum-gallium alloy would
require about the same space as a tank of gasoline, so no extra room would be
needed,
and the added weight would be the equivalent of an extra passenger, albeit a pretty
large extra passenger."
...

I'm not saying such technology is impossible, just that there's a hell
of a lot of development work to do, and even if aluminum fuel could
eventually be cheaper than gasoline, why wouldn't plain old hydrogen be
even cheaper?

Ok, YOU sit in a multi car pileup of hyrodgen fueled cars and get back to us on
what it's like ;)

The major point is that both aluminum and hydrogen are not naturally
occurring resources and take large energy inputs to produce. They are
both transport mechanisms, not energy sources, as the above article
points out when talking about nuclear plants and windmills. I'm not sure
I want a proliferation of nuclear plants even in remote areas. Chernobyl
fallout hit other countries of Europe. How many windmills are we talking
about to fuel all US transportation needs?