February 12, 2004
AN INTERVIEW WITH BILL BURKETT....As promised earlier, here's the interview with
former Lt. Colonel Bill Burkett regarding his charges that George Bush's
National Guard files in Texas were "cleansed" back in 1997. This is not the
entire enchilada, but it includes most of the interview directly relevant to
the charges.
I'm posting this for two reasons. First, since Burkett's story has already been
picked up by the mainstream media I think it's valuable to hear an extended
interview with him that allows you to decide for yourself if his charges are
credible - especially since there are some less than flattering moments that
may hurt as well as help his story. As with any verbatim transcript, it can be
a little hard to follow in places, but it's worth plowing through the whole
thing if you're really interested in all this.
Second, although I said I was skeptical about Burkett yesterday, several things
have convinced me that his story is at least believable enough that it deserves
wider exposure:
I talked to him on the phone for nearly two hours on Wednesday and his story
hung together pretty well. In particular, his story of how he overheard the
conversation in General James' office and then saw some of Bush's files in a
trashcan makes more sense when you hear the details. It's fairly melodramatic,
but it does make sense.
In addition, although I haven't yet transcribed this part of the interview, he
explained his "clarification" in 2000 that, as he puts it, seemed to
"over-retract": basically, he got scared by the attention and backed down. He
now admits it was a mistake.
And finally, in the interview he provided the names of several fellow guardsmen
who can corroborate his story. Although details are lacking this early, various
of these people have already been contacted by reporters and have backed up
Burkett's story so far.
The first (partial) corroboration is from George Conn. According to the New York
Times, he declined specific comment on the charges but said via email, "I know
LTC Bill Burkett and served with him several years ago in the Texas Army
National Guard. I believe him to be honest and forthright. He 'calls things
like he sees them.'"
Also from the Times is this: "A retired officer, Lt. Col. Dennis Adams, said Mr.
Burkett told him of the incidents shortly after they happened. 'We talked about
them several different times,' said Mr. Adams, who spent 15 years in the Texas
Guard and 12 years on active duty in the Army."
A third person, Harvey Gough, was interviewed last year by Sander Hicks.
Although the conversation was not specifically about Burkett's charges, Hough
did confirm that he believed Bush's records had been scrubbed: "He says that
Dan Bartlett and Danny James came to him at Camp Mabry in 1993, right after
Bush was inaugurated as Governor, and deleted portions of Bush's TANG file. I
asked Gough what he believed was scrubbed? 'I think quite a bit. I think all
his time in Alabama.'"
Finally, USA Today has a corroborating quote from an anonymous source: "A second
former Texas Guard official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, was told
by a participant that commanders and Bush advisers were particularly worried
about mentions in the records of arrests of Bush before he joined the National
Guard in 1968, the second official said."
In addition, Jim Moore, a longtime Texas reporter (and, granted, hardly a fan of
Bush), has talked with Burkett extensively for a soon to be published book
titled Bush's War For Reelection: Iraq, the White House, and the People. Moore
emailed me that he finds Burkett "immensely credible."
Put all this together and I think that Burkett's story is one worth hearing
about from the horse's mouth. Here it is.
First, a bit of background about Burkett's service in the Guard.
I was a traditional guardsman, Vietnam era guardsman, lieutenant colonel,
midlevel to senior level in rank and time. I was serving as the Mobilization
Plans Officer for the Texas National Guard at the state headquarters, Camp
Mabry, Austin, Texas, Building 8. Within that capacity as a traditional
guardsman my primary objective was to assist units in planning and for
mobilization and conducting mobilization of units either to training or to
active duty mission situations.
How long were you with the Guard?
I was medically retired in 1999 after 28 years.
Burkett worked as a private management consultant, but after business dropped
off in 1996 he accepted a full-time job with the Texas National Guard.
When did you go on active duty?
Spring of '96, I believe the actual order dates began in May of '96....That was
all approved and I was granted unimpeded access to the Adjutant General's
office. I only bring this up to you because this establishes accessibility.
You probably have not been at headquarters building at Camp Mabry?
No.
It's a large structure, two stories, runs north to south with a long hallway,
primarily north to south. The Adjutant General's office is in roughly the
center of the building, second floor, northwest corner. My office was again
second floor.
Within his office, which is the command suite, there are a group of eight or ten
offices. There's two entrances to it, which is a horseshoe type thing, and off
of that goes into his secretary's office, which is his outer office, roughly
eight by ten foot at most in size, with a receptionist type desk and his
secretary, Henrietta Valderes. I customarily would go through her and with all
due courtesies would see the general.
In some cases when the door was open or slightly ajar I would lightly knock and
do the courtesies and I'd ask a quick question and be on my way. I tried not to
bother him, but I still tried to maintain constant and continuous contact. We
worked very well together for a long time.
Following is the account of how Burkett overheard the conversation about
"cleansing" George Bush's National Guard files.
The occurrences here occurred in the early months, the spring months of
1997....I had meant to simply go in and, best I recall....I went in to ask a
quick question, it was just a passing question, or maybe pass along some
information, I don't remember specifically. I went into General [Daniel] James'
outer office, Henrietta Valderes was not there, but the door was slightly ajar,
I'd say roughly eight inches, and the reason I say eight inches is only because
I wear a size seven and a half hat and I just basically stuck my head inside.
I heard voices, I figured somebody was on the blue couch or in the two wingback
chairs that face his desk, and that's not seen unless you slightly stick your
head inside the door. I stuck my head inside the door, saw that no one was
there, and I was embarrassed. I stepped back and I waited for a second and I
overheard this conversation.
And it was a short conversation that I overheard, I only heard a line or two of
it, and I stepped out into the hallway because I was uncomfortable at this
point.
And what was the conversation?
Well, that's where you really need to get Jim [Moore] because we have made sure
that the words, I'm not going to get messed up on that deal. We've tried to
make sure that the words were exact. I wish that you could get at least that
part of the book faxed to you or something, I think that's very important that
the words are exactly right.
I'd sure like to have as much I could here to make sure it's accurate....
I'm taking a look at one of his, and I'm going to have to, I've got a little
draft of it, I'm trying to find the location as we speak, and maybe I can come
back to that in a moment. Kevin, I'm going to try to help you all I can, and
I'm going to trust that you'll at least treat me fairly.
At the end of our conversation Burkett said he would call me back with the
correct quote later, but I was being injected with cortisone when he called. We
played phone tag for the rest of the day but never got back in touch. However,
today's USA Today story fills in the gap:
[Burkett] says he was just outside James' open office door when his boss
discussed the records on a speakerphone with Joe Allbaugh, who was then Gov.
Bush's chief of staff. In Burkett's account, Allbaugh told James that Bush's
press secretary, Karen Hughes, was preparing a biography and needed information
on Bush's military service.
In an interview, Burkett said he recalled Allbaugh's words: "We certainly don't
want anything that is embarrassing in there."
So what happened next?
I was embarrassed, I know that was an emotion and a reaction, a driver. I was
ashamed, my mother and dad didn't raise me that way to eavesdrop on people's
conversations. I was troubled.
I don't guess I really realized the extent of being troubled except that that
evening at dinner Chief Warrant Officer [George] Conn and I - I lived in
Abilene and he lived in Dallas or Cedar Hill - we both went down during the
workweek and stayed in officer's quarters there, so as he called it we were
geographical bachelors. So at night, a couple or three days a week, I'd say an
average of three days a week, we would have dinner together. And we didn't just
casually comment on things, but I brought it up to him, I looked to him, he was
also a preacher's kid, and we both had that haunting of sorts, of living right,
of doing right, and preparing for the next life, so we talked about it that
evening. I brought it up to him, so I must have been troubled.
I told him the next morning, I was again in the command suite, I was in the
doorwell of the Quality Coordinator's office, and there was a gathering of
people about to go into a meeting in the conference room of the command group.
That gathering included General James, General [Wayne] Marty, Colonel Goodwin,
and maybe one or two others. And I was standing there and we were talking
slightly and an individual walked into that horseshoe hallway. The coffee
machine is just in the hallway, is what it is, and anytime there's a group
there at the coffeepot they block traffic. And general officers, as people will
tell you, block traffic anyway.
Two individuals walked in. I didn't know either one of them personally, but I do
know that General James addressed one and said, General [John] Scribner, the
folks from downtown are going to come out, Karen Hughes and [Dan] Bartlett are
going to come out and they're, and I'm paraphrasing here, are going to come out
and they're going to write a book about the governor for use in the reelection
campaign or whatever else is going to follow on, and they need you to open
access to your files and retained records. And there was a quick addition to
that by General Marty, "and make sure there's nothing in there that'll
embarrass the governor."
Now these are just matter-of-fact statements, I won't qualify intent necessarily
at this point. I'll come back and say some things about intent later if you'll
remind me. General Scribner, who is what we call a political general of sorts,
he is a Texas state Guard general, not a federal general, and he had the job of
running the museum, and still has that job. Scribner just replied, basically in
the affirmative, OK or something along that line, and he and the individual who
was with him, who I did not know and have not identified, but believe he was
the retained records person, left, immediately left. They just, like all of us
were prone to do when two or three generals are standing around, the best thing
you can do is leave the area. So they left.
I mentioned this again to George in passing at dinner and told him again,
renewed that I was troubled about it. I don't know in what detail we talked
about it, but I know we talked.
Following is the account of finding Bush's records in a trashcan, ready to be
tossed away.
This went approximately ten days or a little bit later and Mr. Conn - you'll
read all of this, you really, really need this book - Mr. Conn came to my desk,
he and I, when I was moved to Plans Officer he became the Mobilization Plans
Officer, his desk and mine were in cubicles across from each other.
Everybody knew me to be pretty much a workaholic, I'd say the minimum hours that
I was at that desk was 12 and more likely 14 to 16 per day, and George
sometimes would mother me a little bit, he'd come by and force me to take a
break or something like that, so he came by at that occasion and he said,
Colonel, get your hat, which implied to me that he wanted to take a break or we
were going to go do something, and I probably laced back with him. I do have,
even though I'm a preacher's kid, I do have a bad habit with my language, and I
probably laced a little profanity back at him, just in banter, and he again
repeated that term, get your hat, and I knew he was pretty serious. I knew
George was a man of pretty few words, so I got my hat and we took a walk.
This is the second floor of the command building, building 8, long building,
primarily laid out north to south. Typically what you do is go to the center of
the building and there are a series of elevators and hallways there and you go
to the first floor and then you go out and go where you want to go. In fact,
very very seldom unless you had a need to go to the north side of that
building, which was a low traffic area, would you go to the north side on the
second floor. We went on the north side of the second floor to the north edge
of the building, down a stairwell, out the north door, across a parking lot -
and I know you think I'm getting into extreme detail, but I want you to know
that obviously this was a path and there was intention to it. I asked him when
we got outside, I said, where are we going, George? And he said, Colonel, just
walk with me.
This is the day after you overheard the conversation?
No this is about ten days.
OK, ten days after.
And I left out something. George Conn is a smoker. George Conn knew everything
that was happening on Camp Mabry, he picked up every rumor, he knew where
everybody was, what they were doing, George knew it all. When I asked him where
we were going, I believe I asked him three times in our little walk, and once I
remember he said, "Trust me." There may have been a little retort at some
point, but basically it was a "trust me" response, whether it was one time or
three or two or whatever.
We go behind the building, headed toward the academy building, which goes behind
a dormitory structure, and then we go over to the museum and we walk into the
doors of the museum. The museum is an old armory, World War II-Korean War era
vintage armory, which is a large structure. You walk into these doors and
there's a concrete floor there with a larger open space than a high school
gymnasium.
To the left of that are several offices built in Korean War style with basically
little or no top to them, they're basically walled units, and offices are 8 by
12 to 10 by 12, in that size. And at approximately 30 or so feet from that on
this concrete floor, or as we call it, the drill hall floor area, was a folding
table, just a commercial grade folding table, and what I recognized as a - and
you may know what I'm talking about. Do you know what a 15-gallon trashcan
looks like?
Yeah, sure.
A metal gunbarrel style that we used for years and years in the military, that's
what it was, and it was setting at the end of the table. George obviously knew
General Scribner extremely well, and he says hello to him and there's little
pleasantries and we walk up there, and as soon as we get there he introduces me
to General Scribner, who I did not know. I said hello and very little if
anything more. General Scribner was very polite, very punctual, very nice, and
George carried on a conversation with him, basically asked him, OK, what are
you doing, how's it coming? And obviously they had had previous conversations
that he was working on files.
At that point I remember General Scribner saying that people downtown were
coming out and they were going to do a book, and Bartlett and Hughes were
coming out, and he'd been told to get all the files together and go through
them and kind of clean them up a bit. And George said, well, what are you
finding? And he says, well, he says he's been through it, and I'm paraphrasing
all of this, he says, obviously lots of people have been through it, you know,
there's just not as much here as I'd expected, mostly old press releases and
that sort of stuff.
I'm standing there on one foot and another, very uncomfortable with this
situation, I knew I'd been guided here and I knew why at that point. I was
standing right next to the trash can. I mention that only for one reason, and
that is my own alibi to my own conscience. I believe if I'd been one step away
from the trash can I would not have done what I did, I would have been forced
to make an obvious decision.
Instead I looked down into the trashcan. Underneath most of the trash - the
trash level was within two inches of the top - I saw that the trash on the
bottom was basically packing cartons, I do remember that there were a couple of
elastic type straps and that sort of thing, and on top there was a little bit
of paper. And on top of that pile of paper, approximately five-eighths of an
inch thick, and Jim wanted me to estimate the number of pages and I said
probably between 20 and 40 pages of documents that were clearly originals and
photocopies. And it wasn't any big deal, I looked at it, it was a glance
situation, and it made no sense to me at all except at the top of that top page
was Bush, George W., 1LT.
And I look back at it now and I know I was troubled that those documents were in
the trashcan. I did ruffle through the top six to eight pages.
And what were they?
Those documents were performance, what I term performance documents, which would
include retirement points, [unintelligible] type documents, which would be a
record of drill performance or nonperformance, and there was at least one pay
document copy within the top six to eight pages of that stack that was in the
trash….
Now, George Conn had brought you here deliberately....
I believe so. And that's the reason I traced the path, I don't think there's any
doubt about it.
And was there any further conversation with General Scribner?
We were there talking just for a second, and as the conversation went on George
and General Scribner moved back to the corner office, so I'm left alone. They
talked, the maximum time that we were in the museum, from the time I shook the
man's hand until we left, the time of the conversation and everything else
could not have been less than five minutes or more than eight minutes.
What did George Conn tell General Scribner about why he'd brought you there?
He didn't.
He just showed up and....
We were just there, we just happened there. Just walking by and visiting. Now,
General Scribner did not act, and I still do not believe to this day, that he
felt like he was doing anything wrong. Now I'm going a little offline here
about intent....
Even though he was throwing away documents from a file?
Well, I'll carry through with that. I do not believe General James at the time
felt he was doing any more than taking care of the boss. I do not believe that
General Marty or anyone else at the Texas National Guard saw it as anything
other - you have to understand the culture. If you understand that, in so many
cases, especially when there is someone that is somewhat political in nature,
and I think it proves itself throughout this whole case even down to a
congressman's son in a unit, that when they want to promote somebody, they will
oftentimes take full-time personnel and they'll go back and they'll make sure
that that personnel file looks better than anyone else's when it goes forward
for consideration before promotion boards.
[At this point there was a long digression about routine cleaning up of
personnel files for officers up for promotion.]
So I'm telling you that from their intent I do not believe that Major General
Daniel James, and I'm not trying to alibi him, I am trying to bend over
backwards to be fair, I do not believe General Wayne Marty, Colonel Goodwin,
General Scribner, or anybody else thought they were doing anything but taking
care of the boss.
OK, what next?
All the way from the museum back I was terribly bothered and I obviously wanted
to talk. I slowed down our walk and at one point I stopped our walk and I told
George, I said, "God bless, George, what in the hell is going on and who in the
hell is in charge?" I was upset, and he obviously, in looking back at it, I
don't think he wanted to slow down or be seen, but at that point I wasn't
really all that cautious of being seen.
In addition to George Conn, Burkett says he talked about this to four other
people: Harvey Gough, Dennis Adams, and two unnamed friends.
So we talked about this again at a time approximately three weeks later. Mr.
Harvey Gough, a Chief Warrant Officer, a traditional guardsman who had been the
special projects officer under four or five governors and I don't know how many
adjutant generals, he was the conduit for trying to gain missions for the Texas
National Guard and improve the way we were doing business, and I had developed
his role of being out there with the four stars like General Wes Clark and
others. He was out there trying to do good things for the Guard and I was doing
the strategic plan. We developed this working relationship along with everybody
else that was on the same team, we were trying to improve the Guard.
Harvey Gough is very political, extremely political. He runs Goff's, [a
restaurant] in Dallas, Texas, which is the old haunt of Governor Bill Clements.
Many of the early actions to plan the Bush campaign in 1994 for governor were
done right there at Goff's Restaurant. Jim Francis, who's the head of the Bush
pioneer program, is Harvey's best friend, as background. I mean, Dan Bartlett
got his job by seeing Harvey to get access to Jim Francis, that sort of thing.
Highly political, all of this sort of thing. Harvey's a guardsman, I was
registered as a Democrat but totally nonpolitical, had made sure that it stayed
out of my consulting practice because the first thing you do when you get that
into a consulting practice is you cut your own throat.
Anyway, I talked to Harvey about three weeks after the incident at the museum,
only because I was very concerned that a very dangerous action had taken place
that probably politically endangered Governor Bush, who I considered my
ultimate boss. And I didn't know how to get that message through because I
really didn't know who I could trust. And I thought the guys at the Guard out
there were just, I mean, they were just good 'ol boys and didn't know better.
They were just taking care of the boss.
If that was true this had to go direct, you know, get a handle on this darn
thing, get it corrected. I did not know, for example, that in 1994 at the
debates, didn't know this until November of last year, that in the '94 debates
Wayne Slater of the Dallas Morning News, and I believe Jim Moore at that time
was either ABC, CBS, or CNN, or something, they asked the question about Bush's
military record in the fifth and sixth year in the '94 debates. I didn't know
that. I was naive to all this stuff. I was just the wrong guy, wrong place,
wrong time. So I mentioned to Harvey, and my objective was pure, you know,
somebody get this worked out before it gets worse.
I had mentioned it to Conn, I kept it to myself, kept it under button, there
were a couple of people that I did mention it to about the same time I did
Harvey, who have told me plain and simple their job is in jeopardy and don't
mention them to anyone, and I won't.
I did mention to a fellow that I had worked with, a fellow by the name of
Lieutenant Colonel Dennis Adams, and told him also. I told him I was troubled
about it. I trusted Dennis to serve maybe a little bit as an ethical advisor,
maybe a little bit as a friend. He knew the system since he was a full timer
for so many years, he knew the system far better than I. So I asked his counsel
and advice on the situation too. So I had told about five or six people within
the first three weeks of this occurring.
In all honesty I didn't know what to do. I did not know what to do. It was a
moral dilemma for me, it was an ethical dilemma, it was a military uniform
dilemma because I had breached the oath and creed of an officer in the United
States Army. I was in that dilemma and I didn't know what to do. That's as
straight as I can be. I swallowed it and I didn't do anything.
Nine months later, in January 1998, Burkett became ill during a trip to Panama
for the Army and collapsed at the Abilene airport when he returned home. He
spent the next five months trying to get medical care from the military and
believes he was denied this care as a result of retaliation against him for
earlier trying to raise the issue of "ghost soldiers" in the National Guard, a
story that was eventually reported nationally in USA Today by Dave Moniz and
Jim Drinkard. He eventually filed a suit against the officers involved but lost
the case.
In the process of trying to gain access to medical care, Mr. Conn, who is
probably as good a personnel expert as there was at the time, even though he
was not assigned in personnel. I relied on his expertise, he'd been in the
field for so many years and he'd been on active duty for so many years, and I
asked for his advice and counsel.
They downloaded his hard drive off his computer and....found an email that he
had sent to me. They brought him in to the Chief of Staff's office where the
senior JAG officer was, who read George Conn his rights. They offered him an
attorney and began a court martial proceeding against him and showed him the
email that he had sent to me. The only thing he was told as far as the reason
for the court martial was that he had made derogatory remarks about the
governor. What George had actually done in that email was tell me that this
might require political leverage to include, and one of the issues was the
governor's own military files.
So this email said exactly what?
This email indicated to me that, well, first it indicated that they had no legal
or regulation right to keep me from medical care, that they were obviously
blocking that and in order to just get access to medical care I might have to
play the card at the governor's office. This is paraphrased, play the card at
the governor's office, which might require some political leverage. And
included within that information was including the governor's own military
files.
Burkett says Conn was fired from the Guard the same day, presumably for advising
him to threaten the governor's office with information about the missing files.
Next up is Harvey Gough.
At the same time, Chief Harvey Gough, who had helped Colonel Goodwin get his job
as Chief of Staff, and had helped Bartlett and all of these other people, was
trying to run interference and trying to get me access to medical care. He
confronted the Chief of Staff, Colonel Goodwin, and the way it's been told to
me by Mr. Gough is that he and Colonel Goodwin had - Mr. Gough is a real
in-your-face kind of guy, he can sure get rank on you in a hurry - that Colonel
Goodwin had befriended him and asked for help, and Gough is the political guy,
had asked for help to become Chief of Staff for the Texas National Guard, the
state Chief of Staff, which he had done. There was a degree of familiarity,
they cussed at each other quite normally and in fact Gough changed his clothes
in the chief's office every time he came down to Austin. There was a
familiarity there, but when Gough confronted Goodwin about my health situation
Goodwin got angry, retorted back to him, and Gough called him a name, or
referred to him in some manner with profanity, for which he was then submitted
for court martial.
Now I want to bring up the background to that for this reason. About ten days or
so later, this was not just an inner fight, it did seem it had gotten out of
hand, so I called Dan Bartlett in Austin. And he did take my call that time,
and I talked to Dan, and I was pleading for common sense on the case of Harvey
especially, and on the case of all of this. I was just basically pleading that
the whole thing had gotten out of hand, that it was all out of control, and
that somebody needed to, well, I said somebody needed to pull their head out of
their ***** and get control of this deal. And Harvey Gough had served valuably,
even though he was very political and we all knew him to be very political,
Harvey Gough had done tremendous things for many governors, and for many
adjutants general, and he was still being very well [unintelligible] and was
bringing great profit to the organization, and he needed to stop this bull.
And Dan didn't respond a lot except he baited me on a couple of questions, and I
told him, this is out of control. And he indicated, well, who would you put in
charge out there? And he basically I think was asking me who should be the
Adjutant General, I don't know, which I don't want to get into that, but there
was some side loops in the conversation.
I know Dan was wary of the conversation at the time, but I did tell him, and I
look back at this and I know he should have taken it different, I told him, I
said Dan, Harvey's political, this whole situation has gotten political, and
you know, there's a downside to this. There's some risks, including this
personnel readiness issue, the readiness reports, even the governor's own
files.
And he should have retorted back to me, "Are you threatening me?" But he did
not. I was probably out of line in a way and yet I will tell you now that I was
begging for what I at that point considered life saving help. I could not walk
at that time. I was poured into a chair. We finished our call, nothing
happened, they court martialed Gough, they kicked him out of the Guard....That
was the first time that I personally know that the knowledge that the records
issue was an issue was passed to Bartlett, Allbaugh, or somebody else.
The "ghost soldiers" story finally broke in late 2001 in USA Today at the time
that General James had been nominated to be national head of the Air National
Guard. At about this time, Burkett was able to tell his entire story to the DOD
Inspector General's Office.
Within that time frame there were several people who submitted letters of
concern to the Senate Armed Services Committee, both to the majority staff and
minority staff and to individual senators. I was aware of those because I was
sent many copies by a lot of people, but I sent one that included the
assertions about what I had seen on the governor's record.
I got a telephone call here and they had to have an immediate response. They
wanted to do an interview and I wanted my attorney present and they didn't want
my attorney present, and we did a basic dance and finally put something
together there and responded. And they had five, six, or seven attorneys in the
room and my attorney was not allowed to be there, and we did it by
teleconference, which, it was not a real fair setting but it didn't make any
difference, it went off what I considered fairly. I don't know if anything else
was done fairly, I would doubt it, but they took my testimony and I detailed
this issue of the governor's military records and what I had seen....
And this is what date now?
January, I think it's going to be either the fifth, sixth, or seventh of 2002.
That's the date that that interview took place.
Let me go back and make sure I understand this. This is a teleconference among
who and for what purpose?
I submitted a letter of concern to the Senate Armed Services Committee about the
appointment of Daniel James as director of the Air National Guard. That
prompted the DOD Inspector General's Office to conduct this interview. All of
my concerns were brought up in this teleconference.
And during this teleconference one of the things that you mentioned was the
George Bush records?
Yes. The entire story. I detailed the entire story. And they asked for
corroboration and I gave them names, Gough, I gave them Adams, I gave them
Conn, and as requested by those other two individuals I left them out.
http://www.calpundit.com/mt/mt-tb.cgi?__mode=view&entry_id=3249
--
"There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas -- that says, fool
me once, shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again."
http://www.diymedia.net/audio/mp3/tdntb-bushwack2.mp3
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