| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"Captain Compassion" |
| Date: |
01 Jun 2007 12:23:30 AM |
| Object: |
Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
May 31, 2007
Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices
By Thomas Sowell
With gasoline prices rising, political rhetoric is rising even faster.
Liberals in Congress and in the media have launched a war of words,
whose net result may well be a demand for some form of price control.
Price controls are not a new idea. There have been price controls in
countries around the world. There were price controls during ancient
times in Babylon and in the Roman Empire.
Whatever the hopes that may have inspired price controls, economists
have studied their actual consequences, which have been remarkably
similar from one place to another and from one time to another -- and
almost invariably bad.
That history has even included higher prices in places with price
controls. For example, New York and San Francisco have severe rent
control laws -- and some of the highest average rents in the country.
But those pushing for price controls on gasoline are not likely to go
into facts about the consequences of price controls, much less go into
the economics that explains why such bad consequences have repeatedly
followed price controls.
This issue, like so many others, is likely to be settled on the basis
of rhetoric. And, on that basis, the left has always had the
advantage.
As former House Majority Leader ***** Armey -- an economist by trade --
has put it: "Demagoguery beats data" in political battles.
The demagoguery in this case is that "price gouging" and "greed"
explain rising gasoline prices -- and that price controls will put a
stop to it.
It is an exercise in futility to try to refute words that are
meaningless. If a word has no concrete meaning, then there is nothing
that can be refuted. "Price gouging" is a classic example.
The phrase is used when prices are higher than most people are used
to. But there is nothing special or magic about what we happen to be
used to.
When the conditions that determined the old prices change, the new
prices are likely to be very different. That is not rocket science.
How have conditions changed in recent years? The biggest change is
that China and India -- with more than a billion people each -- have
had rapidly growing economies ever since they began relaxing
government controls and allowing markets to operate more freely.
When there are rising incomes in countries of this size, the demand
for more petroleum for both industry and consumers is huge. Increasing
the supply of oil to meet these escalating demands is not nearly as
easy.
In the United States, liberals have made it virtually impossible, by
banning drilling in all sorts of places and preventing any new
refinery from being built anywhere in the country in the last 30
years.
Prices are like messengers carrying the news of supply and demand.
Like other messengers carrying bad news, they face the danger that
some people think the answer is to kill the messenger, rather than
taking steps to change the news.
The strongest proponents of price controls are the strongest opponents
of producing more oil. They say the magic words "alternative energy
sources" and we are supposed to swoon -- and certainly not ask any
rude questions like "At what cost?"
Then there are the famous "obscene" profits of oil companies. Again,
there is no definition and no criterion by which you could tell
obscene profits from PG-13 profits or profits rated G.
There is not the slightest interest in how large the investments are
that produced those profits. Relative to the vast investments
involved, oil company profits do not begin to approach the rate of
return received by someone who bought a house in California ten years
ago and sells it today.
Oil company executives make big bucks incomes, almost as much as
liberal movie stars who are never criticized for "greed." And if Big
Oil CEOs worked for nothing, it is unlikely to be enough to bring the
price of a gallon of gas down by a nickel.
But facts are not nearly as exciting as rhetoric -- and the role of
most political rhetoric is to be a substitute for facts.
--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.
Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS
Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion
"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.
Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
.
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| User: "Kevin Cunningham" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
01 Jun 2007 08:21:30 AM |
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"Captain Compassion" <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:p5bv539eac3ntroicetl9q8e8117l04a5f@4ax.com...
May 31, 2007
Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices
By Thomas Sowell
With gasoline prices rising, political rhetoric is rising even faster.
Liberals in Congress and in the media have launched a war of words,
whose net result may well be a demand for some form of price control.
Remember Harding? Remember his response to the great depression? All
voluntary, all the time. He failed miserably. So Roosevelt took over and
ran the country straight into success after success all due to goverment
action and the will of the people.
What you repug perverts want is the will of the rich people to rule.
.
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| User: "Biscuits and Books" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
01 Jun 2007 10:31:39 AM |
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First, it was Hoover, Herbert "Hoobert Heever" Hoover. But Harding was
asleep at the wheel while Albert Fall took bribes to sell off US oil
resrerves.
"Kevin Cunningham" <smskjv@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:u3V7i.15667$Ut6.8698@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Captain Compassion" <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:p5bv539eac3ntroicetl9q8e8117l04a5f@4ax.com...
May 31, 2007
Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices
By Thomas Sowell
With gasoline prices rising, political rhetoric is rising even faster.
Liberals in Congress and in the media have launched a war of words,
whose net result may well be a demand for some form of price control.
Remember Harding? Remember his response to the great depression? All
voluntary, all the time. He failed miserably. So Roosevelt took over and
ran the country straight into success after success all due to goverment
action and the will of the people.
Roosevelt set about to create a strong middle class, which is the basis for
any democratic society. That's why neocons hate him -- he empowered
"regular people."
There comes a time when we have to recognize these corporations for what
they are -- enemies of the state. We should declare war on Aera and Chevron
et al and sieze their assets for high treason against the US.
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| User: "Kevin Cunningham" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
02 Jun 2007 09:46:37 AM |
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"Biscuits and Books" <Cheney_did_Barney@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:vZW7i.12258$296.4196@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
First, it was Hoover, Herbert "Hoobert Heever" Hoover. But Harding was
asleep at the wheel while Albert Fall took bribes to sell off US oil
resrerves.
Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry... a thousand times!
"Kevin Cunningham" <smskjv@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:u3V7i.15667$Ut6.8698@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Captain Compassion" <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:p5bv539eac3ntroicetl9q8e8117l04a5f@4ax.com...
May 31, 2007
Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices
By Thomas Sowell
With gasoline prices rising, political rhetoric is rising even faster.
Liberals in Congress and in the media have launched a war of words,
whose net result may well be a demand for some form of price control.
Remember Harding? Remember his response to the great depression? All
voluntary, all the time. He failed miserably. So Roosevelt took over
and ran the country straight into success after success all due to
goverment action and the will of the people.
Roosevelt set about to create a strong middle class, which is the basis
for any democratic society. That's why neocons hate him -- he empowered
"regular people."
There comes a time when we have to recognize these corporations for what
they are -- enemies of the state. We should declare war on Aera and
Chevron et al and sieze their assets for high treason against the US.
.
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| User: "Christopher Helms" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
02 Jun 2007 05:07:57 PM |
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On Jun 1, 10:31 am, "Biscuits and Books"
<Cheney_did_Bar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
First, it was Hoover, Herbert "Hoobert Heever" Hoover. But Harding was
asleep at the wheel while Albert Fall took bribes to sell off US oil
resrerves.
Albert Fall was a rank amateur next to the oil hustlers in charge
today. So he took a few bribes so his friends could enrich themselves
at public expense. Big deal. Not even Amy Goodman would bother to
report on something like that today. ***** Cheney has probably done
***** like that in his sleep; It's probably not even a crime anymore.
.
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| User: "Captain Compassion" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
01 Jun 2007 10:01:31 AM |
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On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:21:30 GMT, "Kevin Cunningham"
<smskjv@mindspring.com> wrote:
"Captain Compassion" <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:p5bv539eac3ntroicetl9q8e8117l04a5f@4ax.com...
May 31, 2007
Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices
By Thomas Sowell
With gasoline prices rising, political rhetoric is rising even faster.
Liberals in Congress and in the media have launched a war of words,
whose net result may well be a demand for some form of price control.
Remember Harding? Remember his response to the great depression? All
voluntary, all the time. He failed miserably. So Roosevelt took over and
ran the country straight into success after success all due to goverment
action and the will of the people.
What you repug perverts want is the will of the rich people to rule.
Harding? He died 6 years before the great depression in 1923. Go back
to school Kevin.
--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.
Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS
Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion
"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.
Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
.
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| User: "ZNUYBV" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
02 Jun 2007 04:00:59 PM |
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On Jun 1, 6:21 am, "Kevin Cunningham" <sms...@mindspring.com> wrote:
"Captain Compassion" <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:p5bv539eac3ntroicetl9q8e8117l04a5f@4ax.com...> May 31, 2007
Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices
By Thomas Sowell
With gasoline prices rising, political rhetoric is rising even faster.
Liberals in Congress and in the media have launched a war of words,
whose net result may well be a demand for some form of price control.
Remember Harding? Remember his response to the great depression? All
voluntary, all the time. He failed miserably. So Roosevelt took over and
ran the country straight into success after success all due to goverment
action and the will of the people.
What you repug perverts want is the will of the rich people to rule.
During the Roosevelt administration the unemployment rate hit 30%.
.
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| User: "Server 13" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
01 Jun 2007 09:55:56 AM |
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"Captain Compassion" <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:p5bv539eac3ntroicetl9q8e8117l04a5f@4ax.com...
May 31, 2007
Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices
By Thomas Sowell
AAAAAAAAAAAAAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
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| User: "PagCal" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
02 Jun 2007 02:38:01 AM |
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Captain Compassion wrote:
May 31, 2007
Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices
By Thomas Sowell
With gasoline prices rising, political rhetoric is rising even faster.
Liberals in Congress and in the media have launched a war of words,
whose net result may well be a demand for some form of price control.
The big oil flack (you) is at it again.
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| User: "Captain Compassion" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
02 Jun 2007 02:38:08 PM |
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On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 03:38:01 -0400, PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Captain Compassion wrote:
May 31, 2007
Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices
By Thomas Sowell
With gasoline prices rising, political rhetoric is rising even faster.
Liberals in Congress and in the media have launched a war of words,
whose net result may well be a demand for some form of price control.
The big oil flack (you) is at it again.
Gasoline prices are now falling. I only had to ask the oil CEOs real
nice like.
--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.
Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS
Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion
"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.
Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
.
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| User: "Docky Wocky" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
02 Jun 2007 03:03:10 PM |
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If the price keeps going up, just watch.
The poorer liberal lefties, you know, the ones who are employed to do the
voting and the day-to-day work for the elite lefties, won't be able to
afford gassing up their baby cars much longer, so they'll be yelling for
Bush to invade Iran.
The master class will just do a disappearing act and retreat to their
paradise islands leaving the morons to their own devices - until they need
them again.
.
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| User: "Phlip" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
02 Jun 2007 03:43:16 PM |
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Docky Wocky wrote:
If the price keeps going up, just watch.
The poorer liberal lefties, you know, the ones who are employed to do the
voting and the day-to-day work for the elite lefties, won't be able to
afford gassing up their baby cars much longer, so they'll be yelling for
Bush to invade Iran.
The master class will just do a disappearing act and retreat to their
paradise islands leaving the morons to their own devices - until they need
them again.
+1
--
Phlip
http://flea.sourceforge.net/PiglegToo_1.html
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| User: "Roger" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
01 Jun 2007 07:05:32 AM |
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Thomas Sowell.
Were you tired of the million chimps with a million ThinkPads to weigh in?
"Captain Compassion" <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:p5bv539eac3ntroicetl9q8e8117l04a5f@4ax.com...
May 31, 2007
Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices
By Thomas Sowell
With gasoline prices rising, political rhetoric is rising even faster.
Liberals in Congress and in the media have launched a war of words,
whose net result may well be a demand for some form of price control.
Price controls are not a new idea. There have been price controls in
countries around the world. There were price controls during ancient
times in Babylon and in the Roman Empire.
Whatever the hopes that may have inspired price controls, economists
have studied their actual consequences, which have been remarkably
similar from one place to another and from one time to another -- and
almost invariably bad.
That history has even included higher prices in places with price
controls. For example, New York and San Francisco have severe rent
control laws -- and some of the highest average rents in the country.
But those pushing for price controls on gasoline are not likely to go
into facts about the consequences of price controls, much less go into
the economics that explains why such bad consequences have repeatedly
followed price controls.
This issue, like so many others, is likely to be settled on the basis
of rhetoric. And, on that basis, the left has always had the
advantage.
As former House Majority Leader ***** Armey -- an economist by trade --
has put it: "Demagoguery beats data" in political battles.
The demagoguery in this case is that "price gouging" and "greed"
explain rising gasoline prices -- and that price controls will put a
stop to it.
It is an exercise in futility to try to refute words that are
meaningless. If a word has no concrete meaning, then there is nothing
that can be refuted. "Price gouging" is a classic example.
The phrase is used when prices are higher than most people are used
to. But there is nothing special or magic about what we happen to be
used to.
When the conditions that determined the old prices change, the new
prices are likely to be very different. That is not rocket science.
How have conditions changed in recent years? The biggest change is
that China and India -- with more than a billion people each -- have
had rapidly growing economies ever since they began relaxing
government controls and allowing markets to operate more freely.
When there are rising incomes in countries of this size, the demand
for more petroleum for both industry and consumers is huge. Increasing
the supply of oil to meet these escalating demands is not nearly as
easy.
In the United States, liberals have made it virtually impossible, by
banning drilling in all sorts of places and preventing any new
refinery from being built anywhere in the country in the last 30
years.
Prices are like messengers carrying the news of supply and demand.
Like other messengers carrying bad news, they face the danger that
some people think the answer is to kill the messenger, rather than
taking steps to change the news.
The strongest proponents of price controls are the strongest opponents
of producing more oil. They say the magic words "alternative energy
sources" and we are supposed to swoon -- and certainly not ask any
rude questions like "At what cost?"
Then there are the famous "obscene" profits of oil companies. Again,
there is no definition and no criterion by which you could tell
obscene profits from PG-13 profits or profits rated G.
There is not the slightest interest in how large the investments are
that produced those profits. Relative to the vast investments
involved, oil company profits do not begin to approach the rate of
return received by someone who bought a house in California ten years
ago and sells it today.
Oil company executives make big bucks incomes, almost as much as
liberal movie stars who are never criticized for "greed." And if Big
Oil CEOs worked for nothing, it is unlikely to be enough to bring the
price of a gallon of gas down by a nickel.
But facts are not nearly as exciting as rhetoric -- and the role of
most political rhetoric is to be a substitute for facts.
--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.
Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS
Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion
"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.
Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
.
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| User: "Blazing Laser" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
01 Jun 2007 02:02:44 AM |
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Whenever anyone mentions 'price control' the Repubs trot out their old
bromides about how price controls ALWAYS lead to disaster. Actually,
I haven't heard anyone suggest price controls for gas. Maybe I missed
it. Maybe Sowell just likes to beat that particular drum. Perhaps
he's trying to convince us that price controls is the only alternative
to the current system. The last president I remember who fostered
large-scale price controls was Nixon.
Instead of price controls, Repubs profess to favor the price being set
by the 'free market'. The magic of the market, yessir, that'll solve
all our problems.
The problem here, though, is that there isn't a free market. And they
know it. Every proposal Repubs come up with has the side-effect
(supposedly incidental) of reducing competition. Repubs don't like
free markets at all! They like oligopoly.
What would happen, for instance, if we broke oil companies up into
drilling, transporting, refining and retail companies? You can do one
thing, or maybe two things. You can pull the oil out of the ground,
but then you have to sell that oil in a free market for the going
price. You can buy oil and refine it, but then you have to sell it to
a retailer (or retail distributor) at the going price?
I can hear not just oil execs but neocons (and even paleocons)
screaming "OH NOOOO!!!! That wouldn't work!" But the real effect
would be to impose a free market, let the prices be set by the market,
not by collusion or executive fiat.
The way it is now, oil profits soar when there's a shortage. The less
oil they have to sell, the more money they make. This is completely
backwards from how 'free markets' are supposed to work. Under the new
system, for instance, refining companies would have no incentive to
pull refineries offline for 'maintenance' to create artificial
shortages and drive up prices, because this would hurt their profits.
Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?
As for demagoguery beating data--Sowell knows that! Boy, does he know
that! 8^)
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| User: "Phlip" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
01 Jun 2007 08:49:34 PM |
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Whenever anyone mentions 'price control' the Repubs trot out their old
bromides
Dude, the _only_ people who use that 1920s expression, "bromides", are
Randroids.
The problem here, though, is that there isn't a free market.
I _knew_ it!
What would happen, for instance, if we broke oil companies up into
drilling, transporting, refining and retail companies?
You mean like we broke up AT&T? That's what they tried to do to the
Terminator II in the movie "Terminator II". They froze it and shot it, and
it fell into a zillion pieces.
Then what did the pieces do, hmm?
--
Phlip
http://flea.sourceforge.net/PiglegToo_1.html
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| User: "Blazing Laser" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
02 Jun 2007 02:04:58 AM |
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On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 18:49:34 -0700, "Phlip" <phlipcpp@yahoo.com> wrote:
Whenever anyone mentions 'price control' the Repubs trot out their old
bromides
Dude, the _only_ people who use that 1920s expression, "bromides", are
Randroids.
Sorry. I went to school a long time ago. 8^< (Still, I think the
political writing was better then.)
The Repubs trot out their old cliches. But the word cliche is itself
a cliche these days. The Repubs trot out their old straw men.
The problem here, though, is that there isn't a free market.
I _knew_ it!
Aha, they can't fool you! Thomas Friedman and George Will and Thomas
Sowell haven't got the message yet.
What would happen, for instance, if we broke oil companies up into
drilling, transporting, refining and retail companies?
You mean like we broke up AT&T? That's what they tried to do to the
Terminator II in the movie "Terminator II". They froze it and shot it, and
it fell into a zillion pieces.
Then what did the pieces do, hmm?
Actually, Reagan decided not to enforce anti-trust laws, that's what
happened.
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| User: "Christopher Helms" |
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| Title: Re: Demagoguery Beats Data on Gas Prices |
02 Jun 2007 05:44:06 PM |
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On Jun 2, 2:04 am, Blazing Laser wrote:
On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 18:49:34 -0700, "Phlip" <phlip...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Whenever anyone mentions 'price control' the Repubs trot out their old
bromides
Dude, the _only_ people who use that 1920s expression, "bromides", are
Randroids.
Sorry. I went to school a long time ago. 8^< (Still, I think the
political writing was better then.)
The Repubs trot out their old cliches. But the word cliche is itself
a cliche these days. The Repubs trot out their old straw men.
The problem here, though, is that there isn't a free market.
How can there be a free market when something like five politically
*very* well connected oil companies control what? 95% of what's
available in the US? Standard Oil was declared a Monopoly in 1911 and
was split into 34 different companies at a time when US oil
production, consumption, capacity and demand were a fraction of what
they are today. I've gotten used to Republican millionaires like
Sewell, O'Reilly, Limbaugh and the rest of them droning on and on
about an imaginary "free market" in oil that has translated into a
monopolistic, nationwide rip off of consumers carried out in broad
daylight while the oil conglomerates, The Oil President and
Halliburton ***** smile approvingly, nod and wink at each other. I've
gotten used to those blockheads on the radio intimating that the
reason for high gas prices at Shell stations in New York is because of
a Texas Arco refinery shutdown that has been planned for the last six
months and has somehow mysteriously affected Shells east coast
refining and distribution capacity, thus forcing Shell to raise their
prices in lockstep with the other four oil conglomerates, all of whom
are making literally world record profits at a time when supplies are
alleged to be tight. But "It's a supply/demand issue" is what the
Republican Noise Machine has been told to say and that's what they are
going to say. That's what everybody from Chimp down to Glenn Beck will
faithfully parrot and nevermind the fact that there is no actual
evidence of a shortage. Nevermind the absence of gas lines, gas price
rising when oil prices drop, gas prices rising when oil prices stay
still or gas prices rising faster than inflation. Let's just listen to
Rush, Glenn and the rest of them, who could fill their respective
Escalades with 92 Octane three times a day if gas goes to $50.00 a
gallon and not even be fazed. Let's listen to people who don't care
because they really don't need to care. Let's listen to the parrots
because that's who the "free market" has decided are the ones who tell
the truth.
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