Evolution of Man Doubted in Study



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Topic: Politics > Politics-USA
User: "Fool For Christ"
Date: 19 Aug 2006 11:04:21 AM
Object: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study
A recent article being touted as a "proof" of evolution actually show
the reverse. In a recent study...
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/08/17/chimpgene_ani.html?category=animals&guid=20060817103030
...scientists were trying to figure out why man "evolved" so much faster
than chimps and others animals. What they found was that a certain
area of our brain would have had to have evolved faster than the rest
of the creature and, indeed, faster than would be normal for evolution.
In the article, the scientists say that this area of the brain
would've had to have evolved 70 times faster than the rest of our
genetic code. One of the scientists in the study said that they had a
hard time believing this could be possible, saying that it's not part
of normal evolution and that some unusual mutation would've had to have
occurred to make it happen.
There you go. Suddenly, those who choose evolution as the easy
explanation have lost their foundation. Evolution and creation BOTH
would require an unusual, sudden, change that is not part of evolution
in order for evolution to be the answer.
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
.

User: "Paulapalooooozaa"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 19 Aug 2006 12:05:51 PM
"Fool For Christ" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156003461.032270.58340@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

A recent article being touted as a "proof" of evolution actually show
the reverse. In a recent study...

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/08/17/chimpgene_ani.html?category=animals&guid=20060817103030

..scientists were trying to figure out why man "evolved" so much faster
than chimps and others animals. What they found was that a certain
area of our brain would have had to have evolved faster than the rest
of the creature and, indeed, faster than would be normal for evolution.
In the article, the scientists say that this area of the brain
would've had to have evolved 70 times faster than the rest of our
genetic code. One of the scientists in the study said that they had a
hard time believing this could be possible, saying that it's not part
of normal evolution and that some unusual mutation would've had to have
occurred to make it happen.

There you go. Suddenly, those who choose evolution as the easy
explanation have lost their foundation. Evolution and creation BOTH
would require an unusual, sudden, change that is not part of evolution
in order for evolution to be the answer.

Why would anyone take this source, and their baseless opinions seriously?
Only someone who doesn't understand science would assert that one finding
(if it were true) would tear down the foundation science.
.
User: "ZenIsWhen"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 19 Aug 2006 01:22:47 PM
"Paulapalooooozaa" <Palooza@r57.com> wrote in message
news:12eeh7ht8bnoa0e@corp.supernews.com...


"Fool For Christ" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156003461.032270.58340@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

A recent article being touted as a "proof" of evolution actually show
the reverse. In a recent study...

Where; othert than in your corrupt and misguided imagination?


http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/08/17/chimpgene_ani.html?category=animals&guid=20060817103030

..scientists were trying to figure out why man "evolved" so much faster
than chimps and others animals.

I read the article - that does not appear ANYWHERE!
What they found was that a certain

area of our brain would have had to have evolved faster than the rest
of the creature and, indeed, faster than would be normal for evolution.

There is no such thing as "faster" and "slower" (except as a reference to
other things) in evolution.
as scientists are CONSTANTLY finding out - the whole concept of "normal
evolution" is a farce!

In the article, the scientists say that this area of the brain
would've had to have evolved 70 times faster than the rest of our
genetic code. One of the scientists in the study said that they had a
hard time believing this could be possible, saying that it's not part
of normal evolution and that some unusual mutation would've had to have
occurred to make it happen.

HE was then one who posited the opinion - THERE WAS NO THEY!!!!
He,obviously, still is one of the people who has not understaod that
evolution is not something that can fit in a nice neaty box called "normal".


There you go. Suddenly, those who choose evolution as the easy
explanation have lost their foundation. Evolution and creation BOTH
would require an unusual, sudden, change that is not part of evolution
in order for evolution to be the answer.

You spout this as thought it were fact - but all that is shown is that you
DID NOT quote the page - you only, corruptly, warped it to fit your insane
and uneducated claims.


Why would anyone take this source, and their baseless opinions seriously?

Only someone who doesn't understand science would assert that one finding
(if it were true) would tear down the foundation science.

While it is true, one source is not as reliable as many, and some sources
are more reliable than others; ...........
we're not talking about one source ........ we're talking about a moron who
not only warps and distorts that source - but is stupid enough to provide
us with a URL so that we can SEE how much he warps and distorts that source.
.
User: "Fool For Christ"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 19 Aug 2006 07:44:35 PM
ZenIsWhen wrote:

"Paulapalooooozaa" <Palooza@r57.com> wrote in message
news:12eeh7ht8bnoa0e@corp.supernews.com...


"Fool For Christ" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156003461.032270.58340@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

A recent article being touted as a "proof" of evolution actually show
the reverse. In a recent study...


Where; othert than in your corrupt and misguided imagination?


http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/08/17/chimpgene_ani.html?category=animals&guid=20060817103030

..scientists were trying to figure out why man "evolved" so much faster
than chimps and others animals.


I read the article - that does not appear ANYWHERE!



What they found was that a certain

area of our brain would have had to have evolved faster than the rest
of the creature and, indeed, faster than would be normal for evolution.


There is no such thing as "faster" and "slower" (except as a reference to
other things) in evolution.
as scientists are CONSTANTLY finding out - the whole concept of "normal
evolution" is a farce!


In the article, the scientists say that this area of the brain
would've had to have evolved 70 times faster than the rest of our
genetic code. One of the scientists in the study said that they had a
hard time believing this could be possible, saying that it's not part
of normal evolution and that some unusual mutation would've had to have
occurred to make it happen.


HE was then one who posited the opinion - THERE WAS NO THEY!!!!
He,obviously, still is one of the people who has not understaod that
evolution is not something that can fit in a nice neaty box called "normal".



There you go. Suddenly, those who choose evolution as the easy
explanation have lost their foundation. Evolution and creation BOTH
would require an unusual, sudden, change that is not part of evolution
in order for evolution to be the answer.


You spout this as thought it were fact - but all that is shown is that you
DID NOT quote the page - you only, corruptly, warped it to fit your insane
and uneducated claims.


Why would anyone take this source, and their baseless opinions seriously?

Only someone who doesn't understand science would assert that one finding
(if it were true) would tear down the foundation science.


While it is true, one source is not as reliable as many, and some sources
are more reliable than others; ...........
we're not talking about one source ........ we're talking about a moron who
not only warps and distorts that source - but is stupid enough to provide
us with a URL so that we can SEE how much he warps and distorts that source.

Let others go to the source and see who is right. I don't fear it, do
you?
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
.
User: "Carl"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 19 Aug 2006 08:57:25 PM

Let others go to the source and see who is right.

I did and I'm in agreement with those other guys. You twisted the article's
information to conform to your need. You are, after all, just another
religious fundamentalist in the world, aren't you? And we just need to look
at today's middle east to see what havoc they wreak.
"Fool For Christ" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156034675.151599.278620@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...


ZenIsWhen wrote:

"Paulapalooooozaa" <Palooza@r57.com> wrote in message
news:12eeh7ht8bnoa0e@corp.supernews.com...


"Fool For Christ" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156003461.032270.58340@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

A recent article being touted as a "proof" of evolution actually show
the reverse. In a recent study...


Where; othert than in your corrupt and misguided imagination?


http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/08/17/chimpgene_ani.html?category=animals&guid=20060817103030

..scientists were trying to figure out why man "evolved" so much
faster
than chimps and others animals.


I read the article - that does not appear ANYWHERE!



What they found was that a certain

area of our brain would have had to have evolved faster than the rest
of the creature and, indeed, faster than would be normal for
evolution.


There is no such thing as "faster" and "slower" (except as a reference to
other things) in evolution.
as scientists are CONSTANTLY finding out - the whole concept of "normal
evolution" is a farce!


In the article, the scientists say that this area of the brain
would've had to have evolved 70 times faster than the rest of our
genetic code. One of the scientists in the study said that they had a
hard time believing this could be possible, saying that it's not part
of normal evolution and that some unusual mutation would've had to
have
occurred to make it happen.


HE was then one who posited the opinion - THERE WAS NO THEY!!!!
He,obviously, still is one of the people who has not understaod that
evolution is not something that can fit in a nice neaty box called
"normal".



There you go. Suddenly, those who choose evolution as the easy
explanation have lost their foundation. Evolution and creation BOTH
would require an unusual, sudden, change that is not part of evolution
in order for evolution to be the answer.


You spout this as thought it were fact - but all that is shown is that
you
DID NOT quote the page - you only, corruptly, warped it to fit your
insane
and uneducated claims.


Why would anyone take this source, and their baseless opinions
seriously?

Only someone who doesn't understand science would assert that one
finding
(if it were true) would tear down the foundation science.


While it is true, one source is not as reliable as many, and some sources
are more reliable than others; ...........
we're not talking about one source ........ we're talking about a moron
who
not only warps and distorts that source - but is stupid enough to
provide
us with a URL so that we can SEE how much he warps and distorts that
source.


Let others go to the source and see who is right. I don't fear it, do
you?

Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken

.
User: "Fool For Christ"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 19 Aug 2006 09:13:57 PM
Carl wrote:

Let others go to the source and see who is right.


I did and I'm in agreement with those other guys. You twisted the article's
information to conform to your need. You are, after all, just another
religious fundamentalist in the world, aren't you? And we just need to look
at today's middle east to see what havoc they wreak.

As if you were not an atheist fundamentalist...we know from Lenin and
Stalin what to expect from them.
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
.
User: "Dave Oldridge"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 19 Aug 2006 10:16:26 PM
"Fool For Christ" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1156040037.529771.51030@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:


Carl wrote:

Let others go to the source and see who is right.


I did and I'm in agreement with those other guys. You twisted the
article's information to conform to your need. You are, after all,
just another religious fundamentalist in the world, aren't you? And
we just need to look at today's middle east to see what havoc they
wreak.


As if you were not an atheist fundamentalist...we know from Lenin and
Stalin what to expect from them.

The difference between your atheism and theirs is that you pretend you
believe in God when, in point of fact, you believe in telling lies about
science.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
User: "Timothy Sutter"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 20 Aug 2006 04:48:19 AM
Dave Oldridge wrote:

The difference between your atheism and theirs is that you pretend you
believe in God when, in point of fact, you believe in telling lies about
science.

===
"Fool" says:
...scientists were trying to figure out why man "evolved" so much faster
than chimps and others animals. What they found was that a certain
area of our brain would have had to have evolved faster than the rest
of the creature and, indeed, faster than would be normal for evolution.
In the article, the scientists say that this area of the brain
would've had to have evolved 70 times faster than the rest of our
genetic code. One of the scientists in the study said that they had a
hard time believing this could be possible, saying that it's not part
of normal evolution and that some unusual mutation would've had to have
occurred to make it happen.
=
Message-ID: <1156003461.032270.58340@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
===
===
article says:
<...>
In just a few million years, one area of the human genome seems to have
evolved about 70 times faster than the rest of our genetic code since
humans and chimps diverged from their common ancestor.
<...>
Looking at 49 areas of the genome that have changed the most between
the human and chimpanzee genomes, Haussler zeroed in on an area with
"a very dramatic change in a relatively short period of time."
<...>
However, the reported genetic change is so fast that Clark said he
has a hard time believing it, unless something unusual happened in
a mutation. It's not part of normal evolution, he said.
<...>
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/08/17/chimpgene_ani.html?category=animals&guid=20060817103030
===

looks like this 'fool' paraphrases
what is said in the article.
this 'fool' basically wants to say that there
is some drift away from the idea of a slow gradual
progression from simple forms to more complex
forms and uses this article in support.
the contention is that, in general, the evidence
is not showing any sort of slow gradual progression
from inert chemicals, gravity and electromagnetism
to bacteria to worms to mice to human beings,
but some other set of events.
if it isn't a slow gradual progression,
it isn't 'evolution'
you need a more clearly descriptive word.
.
User: "Dave Oldridge"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 20 Aug 2006 12:33:02 PM
Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote in
news:44E82FE3.6C33@lycos.com:

Dave Oldridge wrote:

The difference between your atheism and theirs is that you pretend
you believe in God when, in point of fact, you believe in telling
lies about science.



===
"Fool" says:

..scientists were trying to figure out why man "evolved" so much
faster than chimps and others animals. What they found was that a
certain area of our brain would have had to have evolved faster than
the rest of the creature and, indeed, faster than would be normal for
evolution.
In the article, the scientists say that this area of the brain
would've had to have evolved 70 times faster than the rest of our
genetic code. One of the scientists in the study said that they had a
hard time believing this could be possible, saying that it's not part
of normal evolution and that some unusual mutation would've had to
have occurred to make it happen.
=
Message-ID: <1156003461.032270.58340@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
===

===
article says:

<...>
In just a few million years, one area of the human genome seems to
have evolved about 70 times faster than the rest of our genetic code
since humans and chimps diverged from their common ancestor.
<...>
Looking at 49 areas of the genome that have changed the most between
the human and chimpanzee genomes, Haussler zeroed in on an area with
"a very dramatic change in a relatively short period of time."
<...>
However, the reported genetic change is so fast that Clark said he
has a hard time believing it, unless something unusual happened in
a mutation. It's not part of normal evolution, he said.
<...>
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/08/17/chimpgene_ani.html?category=an
imals&guid=20060817103030 ===


looks like this 'fool' paraphrases
what is said in the article.

this 'fool' basically wants to say that there
is some drift away from the idea of a slow gradual
progression from simple forms to more complex
forms and uses this article in support.

The idea that evolution is ALWAYS a slow gradual progression died about
twenty years age. And areas of the human genome, life baseball players,
sometimes have streaks. It's the nature of physical phenomena.
[snip]

if it isn't a slow gradual progression,

it isn't 'evolution'

you need a more clearly descriptive word.

According to whom? You speaking ex cathedra from under your tinfoil hat?
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
User: "Timothy Sutter"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 20 Aug 2006 02:22:45 PM

Dave Oldridge wrote:

The idea that evolution is ALWAYS a slow gradual progression died about
twenty years age. And areas of the human genome, life baseball players,
sometimes have streaks. It's the nature of physical phenomena.

Timothy Sutter wrote:

the article says that the rapidity
doesn't agree with 'normal evoluton'
where 'normal evolution' is an attribute
associated with the 'genetic molecular clock.'
the suggestion that these 'streaks' occur
essentially relegate the 'genetic molecular
clock' to being rather meaningless.
if streaks occur, then the idea that you can
assign a linear time line to qualities
of divergence is unwarranted,

see, if you suggest that 'streaks' occur
which fall -outside- of 'slow gradual change':
-outside- of the 'normal' time line,
then you can just as easily attribute hard genomic
differences as -inherent- in the genomes requiring
-no- time lapses to explain.
you're just comparing sequences.
there are differences, now you cannot reliably
say that they took -time- to manifest themselves.
.
User: "Dave Oldridge"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 21 Aug 2006 09:44:15 AM
Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote in
news:44E8B685.1046@lycos.com:

Dave Oldridge wrote:

The idea that evolution is ALWAYS a slow gradual progression died
about twenty years age. And areas of the human genome, life
baseball players, sometimes have streaks. It's the nature of
physical phenomena.



Timothy Sutter wrote:

the article says that the rapidity
doesn't agree with 'normal evoluton'
where 'normal evolution' is an attribute
associated with the 'genetic molecular clock.'
the suggestion that these 'streaks' occur
essentially relegate the 'genetic molecular
clock' to being rather meaningless.
if streaks occur, then the idea that you can
assign a linear time line to qualities
of divergence is unwarranted,



see, if you suggest that 'streaks' occur
which fall -outside- of 'slow gradual change':

-outside- of the 'normal' time line,

then you can just as easily attribute hard genomic
differences as -inherent- in the genomes requiring
-no- time lapses to explain.

you're just comparing sequences.

there are differences, now you cannot reliably
say that they took -time- to manifest themselves.

When you start to single out particular sets of genes--especially those
that mark the greatest changes, you may also be singling out those that
depart furthest from the mean when it comes to the rate of fixed
mutations. Genetic clocks are statistical by nature and must be computed
over large portions of a genome. Otherwise sampling errors are apt to
distort the results.
I can see where this has some bearing on religion, but on US politics?
Unless you're admitting that US religion is determined to overthrow the
constitution...
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
User: "Timothy Sutter"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 21 Aug 2006 10:42:06 AM

Dave Oldridge wrote:

The idea that evolution is ALWAYS a slow gradual progression died
about twenty years age. And areas of the human genome, life
baseball players, sometimes have streaks. It's the nature of
physical phenomena.

Timothy Sutter wrote:

the article says that the rapidity
doesn't agree with 'normal evoluton'
where 'normal evolution' is an attribute
associated with the 'genetic molecular clock.'
the suggestion that these 'streaks' occur
essentially relegate the 'genetic molecular
clock' to being rather meaningless.
if streaks occur, then the idea that you can
assign a linear time line to qualities
of divergence is unwarranted,

Timothy Sutter wrote

see, if you suggest that 'streaks' occur
which fall -outside- of 'slow gradual change':
-outside- of the 'normal' time line,
then you can just as easily attribute hard genomic
differences as -inherent- in the genomes requiring
-no- time lapses to explain.
you're just comparing sequences.
there are differences, now you cannot reliably
say that they took -time- to manifest themselves.

Dave Oldridge wrote:

When you start to single out particular sets of genes--especially those
that mark the greatest changes, you may also be singling out those that
depart furthest from the mean when it comes to the rate of fixed
mutations.

for one thing, 'they' don't even know what that gene does.
from the article
"The scientists still don't know specifically what the gene does.
But they know that this same gene turns on in human fetuses at
seven weeks after conception and then shuts down at 19 weeks,
Haussler said."
so, for you to infer that it marks
a great -change- may be unwarranted,
it could be just different
in humans than it is in monkeys.
also, we haven't sufficiently established that
there is a direct linear time relationship nor
any other type of time relationship.
some people simply assume that there is
and approach the genetic sequences accordingly.
look at this again;
from http://www.peripatus.gen.nz/Paleontology/CamExp.html
"I find that the more I learn about molecular clocks,
the more I despair that they can ever be trusted. But
the reason I keep working in the field of molecular
clocks, rather than giving up, is this: wouldn’t it
be great if we could make them work?"
but, he wants them to work,
but, they may simply be telling you that the
absence of a reliably direct linear time relationship
is telling you that there is none to be found.
what you need to address is the mechanism that would
account -for- such enrichment of -new- genetic materials
and show how this should act in an irregular manner
with respect to time displacement.
usually, Darwinian evolution maintains that it is the
pre-existing strength of the genome that allows for
an organism to adapt successfully to varied
surroundings and the like.
the white moth can survive in the coal covered
trees because it already has a gray variety in
the genotype which is expressed in the phenotype
in a population inversion and not because it immediately
developes a new genotype in response to soot covered trees.
but you would be claiming that -new- genetic materials
are being manufactured over time which are expressed
-later- than when they are manufactured in response
to an environmental stressor that did not prsent
itself when the organism began rewriting
its genetic materials.
for instance, you would be saying that a worm,
manufactured extra genetic materials which lay
dormant on the organism while it was rewritten over
time to manufacture a new leg apparatus which simply
expressed itself in response to no apparent
environmental stress and found that the
new organism simply survived.
but, it's survival during the rewrite periods
when extra chromosome materials oftentimes are
lethal is another problem.
and when you get to purely sexually reproducing
organsisms, such dormant extra chromosomes
are highly implausible.
there is no good mechanism to account for this.
so, you get stuck suggesting that some slow
regular pattern of point mutations must
be taking place, and this should have a
certain regularity across the organism.
etc.
Dave Oldridge wrote:

Genetic clocks are statistical by nature and must be computed
over large portions of a genome. Otherwise sampling errors
are apt to distort the results.

there's lots of things which may 'distort' a result
not least of which is an improper a priori assumption
abot the absolute befhavior of the gene shuffling
in the first place.
but they're 'zeroing in' because it allows
them to hold more variables constant.
if you hold a string at both ends and in the middle
and along the thread itself you can easily make
it a straight line,
but if you just look at how it fell on the floor,
you may have to look at small pieces to see any
straight lines at all.
which still doesn't make it a linear piece relationship.
it is apt to be noisy.
making straight lines out of noise
is possible but not very informative.
it's sort of a massive ink blot and
you can project whatever image you
like into it.
etc.
Dave Oldridge wrote:

I can see where this has some bearing on religion, but on US politics?
Unless you're admitting that US religion is determined to overthrow the
constitution...

i didn't start the thread so the choice
of news groups was not my own.
ask that 'fool' why he or she
posted it where he or she posted,
but, if one's politics is making one
lose scientific objectivity, then it
may have some bearing on the matter.
so, maybe that is why that 'fool' posted it there.
.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 22 Aug 2006 12:19:02 AM
Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

Dave Oldridge wrote:

When you start to single out particular sets of genes--especially those
that mark the greatest changes, you may also be singling out those that
depart furthest from the mean when it comes to the rate of fixed
mutations.


for one thing, 'they' don't even know what that gene does.

from the article

"The scientists still don't know specifically what the gene does.
But they know that this same gene turns on in human fetuses at
seven weeks after conception and then shuts down at 19 weeks,
Haussler said."

so, for you to infer that it marks
a great -change- may be unwarranted,

it could be just different
in humans than it is in monkeys.

It could be. But most likely it relates to something that changes in
human embryos between weeks 7 and 19, and which does not change in
other species.

also, we haven't sufficiently established that
there is a direct linear time relationship nor
any other type of time relationship.

For purposes of *this particular research*, which is not trying to
date anything, it doesn't matter whether there really is a linear time
relationship, so long as there is a relatively large amount of change
over the time in question (which shows up as a large coefficient on a
linear regression).

but, they may simply be telling you that the
absence of a reliably direct linear time relationship
is telling you that there is none to be found.

what you need to address is the mechanism that would
account -for- such enrichment of -new- genetic materials
and show how this should act in an irregular manner
with respect to time displacement.
usually, Darwinian evolution maintains that it is the
pre-existing strength of the genome that allows for
an organism to adapt successfully to varied
surroundings and the like.

Incoherent misrepresentation.

but you would be claiming that -new- genetic materials
are being manufactured over time

Mutations tend to do that, yes.

for instance, you would be saying that a worm,
manufactured extra genetic materials which lay
dormant on the organism while it was rewritten over
time to manufacture a new leg apparatus which simply
expressed itself in response to no apparent
environmental stress and found that the
new organism simply survived.

That is one plausible explanation for the large amount of noncoding
data on the genome. That it is accumulated mutations that are waiting
for the conditions wherein they might be useful.

but, it's survival during the rewrite periods
when extra chromosome materials oftentimes are
lethal is another problem.

That is why they call it "selection". Those who extra materials are
lethal don't survive. The rest of them live.

and when you get to purely sexually reproducing
organsisms, such dormant extra chromosomes
are highly implausible.

You may think them implausible, but the reality is that our genome has
a lot of non-coding regions.

there is no good mechanism to account for this.

Obviously, there is.

so, you get stuck suggesting that some slow
regular pattern of point mutations must
be taking place, and this should have a
certain regularity across the organism.

Not necessarily.

Dave Oldridge wrote:

Genetic clocks are statistical by nature and must be computed
over large portions of a genome. Otherwise sampling errors
are apt to distort the results.


there's lots of things which may 'distort' a result
not least of which is an improper a priori assumption
abot the absolute befhavior of the gene shuffling
in the first place.

but they're 'zeroing in' because it allows
them to hold more variables constant.

If the assumption leads to a useful predictive result, then that
supports the validity of the assumption as a hypothesis.

i didn't start the thread so the choice
of news groups was not my own.

ask that 'fool' why he or she
posted it where he or she posted,

Because he IS trying to make political points. And apparently not
realizing that the only political point he is making is that he is
clueless about everything he posts.
lojbab
.
User: "Timothy Sutter"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 22 Aug 2006 06:11:24 AM
====
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=adiabatic
adiabatic.
adj.
Of, relating to, or being a reversible
thermodynamic process that occurs without
gain or loss of heat and without
a change in entropy.
====
see, unless one can posit that the expansion
of the universe was something of this sort,
one doesn't get a reversible process,
and positting something of this sort will
likewise fail because it will not allow
for the formation of distinguishable
particulate objects.
meaning, if one were to suggest,
that some 'other unknowable universe'
was simply holding a gaseous deposit in 'it'
until such time as 'it' spewed 'its' contents
into what we would call 'our' spacial domain,
the only way such a process could be reversible
would be one in which no materials were ever
formed and simply a 'plasmic' 'heat exchange'
between dual spacial domains.
very slow inflation from one
spacial domain to the 'other' domain.
the fact that we see integrated particulate matter
tells us that we do not have a reversble adiabatic
process between dual spacial domains and therefore
are not looking at such a reversible process and
therefore, our 'beginning' remains as the first
and only knowable beginning.
in other words, this relegates the
'cosmic flatulence' to an
invalid sentiment.
meaning, if we don't have a reversible
adiabatic process, we dissipate all our
heat and run out of fuels before the
surface of endless time is even
scratched and we should not be here
to ponder the question,
and if we do have a reversible
adiabatic process, we don't
get any particles.
therefore, a primary singular one time
initiation of the entire process by
conscious intent remains as the only
valid mechanism.
the prospect of collapsing this universe
into a zero order nothingness also remains
as a possibility given conscious control
of the system.
the logistics of which only need take into
account the possibility of some lynch pin
collapse mechanism placed in our domain
by the Creator.
a minor alteration in any of
the six numbers and the entire
thing collapses into a
zero order nothingness.
likewise,
ordering the six numbers
initiates genesis.
the magnificent concentration of design will.
be it so
.

User: "Timothy Sutter"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 22 Aug 2006 05:53:25 AM
Bob LeChevalier wrote:

Timothy Sutter wrote:

Dave Oldridge wrote:

When you start to single out particular sets of genes--especially those
that mark the greatest changes, you may also be singling out those that
depart furthest from the mean when it comes to the rate of fixed
mutations.


for one thing, 'they' don't even know what that gene does.

from the article

"The scientists still don't know specifically what the gene does.
But they know that this same gene turns on in human fetuses at
seven weeks after conception and then shuts down at 19 weeks,
Haussler said."
so, for you to infer that it marks
a great -change- may be unwarranted,
it could be just different
in humans than it is in monkeys.

It could be. But most likely it relates to something that changes in
human embryos between weeks 7 and 19, and which does not change in
other species.

right, it's just an inherent difference
in humans and other organisms.
that's all you get from that.

also, we haven't sufficiently established that
there is a direct linear time relationship nor
any other type of time relationship.

For purposes of *this particular research*, which is not trying to
date anything, it doesn't matter whether there really is a linear time
relationship, so long as there is a relatively large amount of change
over the time in question (which shows up as a large coefficient on a
linear regression).

it's not an amount of -change- that can be
established, but only an amount of -difference-.
you won't be able to use these dubious molecular
clocks to support -change- from one organism to the other.
all you -see- is the differences.

but, they may simply be telling you that the
absence of a reliably direct linear time relationship
is telling you that there is none to be found.
what you need to address is the mechanism that would
account -for- such enrichment of -new- genetic materials
and show how this should act in an irregular manner
with respect to time displacement.
usually, Darwinian evolution maintains that it is the
pre-existing strength of the genome that allows for
an organism to adapt successfully to varied
surroundings and the like.

Incoherent misrepresentation.

no, it is a genetic richness that
affords an organisms adaptability.

but you would be claiming that -new- genetic materials
are being manufactured over time

Mutations tend to do that, yes.

no, the neutral theory tends to suggest
that most mutations are neutral.

for instance, you would be saying that a worm,
manufactured extra genetic materials which lay
dormant on the organism while it was rewritten over
time to manufacture a new leg apparatus which simply
expressed itself in response to no apparent
environmental stress and found that the
new organism simply survived.

That is one plausible explanation for the large amount of noncoding
data on the genome. That it is accumulated mutations that are waiting
for the conditions wherein they might be useful.

you have genes that do nothing after gestation periods
but which are certainly necessary during gestation,
so you cannot suggest that these sites are fee to
rewrite themselves during the course
of successive generations.

but, it's survival during the rewrite periods
when extra chromosome materials oftentimes are
lethal is another problem.

That is why they call it "selection". Those who extra materials are
lethal don't survive. The rest of them live.

the lethal bits -are- the extra chromosomes.

and when you get to purely sexually reproducing
organsisms, such dormant extra chromosomes
are highly implausible.

You may think them implausible, but the reality is that our genome has
a lot of non-coding regions.

it has much -duplication-
but this duplication is necessary during gestation
while not necessary after juvenile periods.
much of the locations you do not know what they do,
do very specific things during gestation periods.
they then sut off and do nothing.
this doesn't leave them available
to rewrite new materials on.

there is no good mechanism to account for this.

Obviously, there is.

in sexually reporducing species, offspring spits
out extra chromosome sets and these chromosome sets
lay dormant on the organism while they are
rewritten to form new apparati.
to suggest that cultivated brassicas spit out extra
chromosomes when they revert to wild type forms and
then translate this to an entirely different form
of cell division and propose it for sexual reproduction
is implausible, and yet, that is the mechanism you may see proposed.
but what you see in practice is that
extra chromosome sets are all
too often lethal.
try again.

so, you get stuck suggesting that some slow
regular pattern of point mutations must
be taking place, and this should have a
certain regularity across the organism.

Not necessarily.

that's the basis for the molecular clocks.
point by point codon reconfiguration.

Dave Oldridge wrote:

Genetic clocks are statistical by nature and must be computed
over large portions of a genome. Otherwise sampling errors
are apt to distort the results.

there's lots of things which may 'distort' a result
not least of which is an improper a priori assumption
abot the absolute befhavior of the gene shuffling
in the first place.
but they're 'zeroing in' because it allows
them to hold more variables constant.

If the assumption leads to a useful predictive result, then that
supports the validity of the assumption as a hypothesis.

and it does not do this.
in fact you citation says just this.

shall i repost your citation?
i'm sure you can find it.

i didn't start the thread so the choice
of news groups was not my own.
ask that 'fool' why he or she
posted it where he or she posted,

Because he IS trying to make political points. And apparently not
realizing that the only political point he is making is that he is
clueless about everything he posts.

but his paraphrase of the artical was not dishonest.
.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 22 Aug 2006 10:11:35 PM
Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

It could be. But most likely it relates to something that changes in
human embryos between weeks 7 and 19, and which does not change in
other species.


right, it's just an inherent difference
in humans and other organisms.

that's all you get from that.

That may be all someone clueless like you gets from it. Scientists
get a lot more from it.

it's not an amount of -change- that can be
established, but only an amount of -difference-.

you won't be able to use these dubious molecular
clocks to support -change- from one organism to the other.

We *observe* change from one organism to another.

but, they may simply be telling you that the
absence of a reliably direct linear time relationship
is telling you that there is none to be found.


what you need to address is the mechanism that would
account -for- such enrichment of -new- genetic materials
and show how this should act in an irregular manner
with respect to time displacement.


usually, Darwinian evolution maintains that it is the
pre-existing strength of the genome that allows for
an organism to adapt successfully to varied
surroundings and the like.


Incoherent misrepresentation.


no, it is a genetic richness that
affords an organisms adaptability.

Sloppy misuse of terminology leading to incoherence.

but you would be claiming that -new- genetic materials
are being manufactured over time


Mutations tend to do that, yes.


no, the neutral theory tends to suggest
that most mutations are neutral.

So. Neutral or non neutral, the result of mutations tends to be "new
genetic materials".

for instance, you would be saying that a worm,
manufactured extra genetic materials which lay
dormant on the organism while it was rewritten over
time to manufacture a new leg apparatus which simply
expressed itself in response to no apparent
environmental stress and found that the
new organism simply survived.


That is one plausible explanation for the large amount of noncoding
data on the genome. That it is accumulated mutations that are waiting
for the conditions wherein they might be useful.


you have genes that do nothing after gestation periods
but which are certainly necessary during gestation,
so you cannot suggest that these sites are fee to
rewrite themselves during the course
of successive generations.

More incoherence.

but, it's survival during the rewrite periods
when extra chromosome materials oftentimes are
lethal is another problem.


That is why they call it "selection". Those who extra materials are
lethal don't survive. The rest of them live.


the lethal bits -are- the extra chromosomes.

Well certainly having extra chromosomes is usually lethal. On the
other hand, polyploidal species exist that were formed by extra
chromosomes. Something like 47% of flowering plants are polyploid.
I suspect that most lethal genes have had an insertion or a deletion
of several base pairs, although I'm sure that there are some that are
SNPs (Duchenne MD is, I think). No extra chromosomes are needed in
order to be lethal.
There are examples of trisomy (one extra copy) of single chromosomes.
Down's syndrome is usually caused by trisomy of chromosome 21. Down's
syndrome isn't lethal. There are small numbers of infants born with
trisomy in other chromosomes.

and when you get to purely sexually reproducing
organsisms, such dormant extra chromosomes
are highly implausible.


You may think them implausible, but the reality is that our genome has
a lot of non-coding regions.


it has much -duplication-

It has a lot of non-coding genetic material

but this duplication is necessary during gestation
while not necessary after juvenile periods.

The vast majority (about 98.5%) of the human genome is not used at any
time during gestation or life to code proteins. There is a single
cell amoeba that has 100 times as much DNA as a human cell, and it has
no gestation period whatsoever, just a lot of accumulated junk.
The genome has around 3 billion base pairs, so that means that less
than 100 million actually codes for proteins.

much of the locations you do not know what they do,
do very specific things during gestation periods.

Much does nothing useful at all. Something between 8% and 25% of the
genome is remnants from retrovirus infections, for example.

there is no good mechanism to account for this.


Obviously, there is.


in sexually reporducing species, offspring spits
out extra chromosome sets and these chromosome sets
lay dormant on the organism while they are
rewritten to form new apparati.

Really?
Please provide a cite discussing dormant extra chromosome sets in
human beings. Even one extra chromosome is usually lethal, but around
1 in a thousand may survive.

to suggest that cultivated brassicas spit out extra
chromosomes when they revert to wild type forms and
then translate this to an entirely different form
of cell division and propose it for sexual reproduction
is implausible, and yet, that is the mechanism you may see proposed.

I suspect that you are talking about polyploidal plants, but I also
suspect that you have no idea what you are talking about.

but what you see in practice is that
extra chromosome sets are all
too often lethal.

Show me a human being with an extra chromosome set.

so, you get stuck suggesting that some slow
regular pattern of point mutations must
be taking place, and this should have a
certain regularity across the organism.


Not necessarily.


that's the basis for the molecular clocks.

point by point codon reconfiguration.

You sling around buzzwords about which you know nothing. The result
is incoherency.
Googling on the phrase
"codon reconfiguration"
gives absolutely no hits.

If the assumption leads to a useful predictive result, then that
supports the validity of the assumption as a hypothesis.


and it does not do this.

in fact you citation says just this.

Actually it doesn't. I suspect this is the one where you see the
words "minimally useful" and think you are reading "useless".

Because he IS trying to make political points. And apparently not
realizing that the only political point he is making is that he is
clueless about everything he posts.


but his paraphrase of the artical was not dishonest.

It was clueless, like most of what you wrote.
It is plausible that someone who posts cluelessly is not being
intentionally dishonest. But the Fool has been caught repeatedly
lying about things, reposting stuff that has been refuted before, etc.
He therefore has lost the presumption of innocent cluelessness.
Your style of posting suggests that you also have been repeatedly
corrected, and you've accumulated a lot of incoherent gobbledygook
that you think answers what people tell you, but which in fact makes
no sense at all. If I go look at your posting history, I could
probably prove this to my own satisfaction, but you aren't worth the
bother.
lojbab
.
User: "Timothy Sutter"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 23 Aug 2006 04:25:15 AM
Bob LeChevalier wrote:

It could be. But most likely it relates to something that changes in
human embryos between weeks 7 and 19, and which does not change in
other species.

Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

right, it's just an inherent difference
in humans and other organisms.
that's all you get from that.
it's not an amount of -change- that can be
established, but only an amount of -difference-.
you won't be able to use these dubious molecular
clocks to support -change- from one organism to the other.

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

We *observe* change from one organism to another.

no, you observe a difference.
you assume only that the organisms
were ever the same species.

but you would be claiming that -new- genetic materials
are being manufactured over time

Mutations tend to do that, yes.

no, the neutral theory tends to suggest
that most mutations are neutral.

So. Neutral or non neutral, the result of mutations tends to be "new
genetic materials".

no, actually in a neutral mutation, the amount of
material remains the same but a single codon is
altered in such a manner as to allow no
significant damage to the coding of a given protein.
that's why it's neutral.

but, it's survival during the rewrite periods
when extra chromosome materials oftentimes are
lethal is another problem.


That is why they call it "selection". Those who extra materials are
lethal don't survive. The rest of them live.

the lethal bits -are- the extra chromosomes.

Well certainly having extra chromosomes is usually lethal. On the
other hand, polyploidal species exist that were formed by extra
chromosomes. Something like 47% of flowering plants are polyploid.

flowers and mammals have different types
of cell division, for one thing,
they don't serve as good examples of how sexually
reproducing mammals add new genetic materials on
which rewrites may occur.

I suspect that most lethal genes have had an insertion or a deletion
of several base pairs, although I'm sure that there are some that are
SNPs (Duchenne MD is, I think). No extra chromosomes are needed in
order to be lethal.

right, most major mutations are deleterious and
are quickly removed from the genome by virtue
of the organisms failure to reproduce itself.
in this manner, mutations, when and as they occur
in the wild tend to be written off before they have
time to pass deeply into the genome.
there is also some problem in your calling Duchenne's MD
and hemophilia 'mutations' inasmuch as they may be just
the entailments of an expression of a trait that already
exists on the genome that is -not- deleterious when covered
up by masking traits on other genes but as inbreedings
occur, these masking traits are removed and the deleterious
trait expresses and decreases survivability.
sort of like the cheetah having severe difficulties because
the family is very small and they have no other quality cheetahs
to mate with and traits that were hidden in the rich genome
become epxressed in the thinnned out genome and they lose viability.
not mutations, but a thinning of bloodlines over time
which result in lethalities which were masked.
etc.

There are examples of trisomy (one extra copy) of single chromosomes.
Down's syndrome is usually caused by trisomy of chromosome 21. Down's
syndrome isn't lethal. There are small numbers of infants born with
trisomy in other chromosomes.

see, the problem here is that you want an organism that
has a genetic disorder which greatly reduces its
survival fitness to survive multiple generations
in the wild while new better attributes are recoded
onto the genertic materials that are mor likely
to keep it from producing offspring at all.
human beings can be nice, thank God for Jerry Lewis, -but-
but a mouse with muscular dystrophy is likely
to be left to die or even killed outright
before it has any chance of producing offspring.
the very simple fact of this matter is that
organisms actually greatly -resist- change.

and when you get to purely sexually reproducing
organsisms, such dormant extra chromosomes
are highly implausible.


You may think them implausible, but the reality is that our genome has
a lot of non-coding regions.


it has much -duplication-


It has a lot of non-coding genetic material

large sections of stop codons just give
larger proteins a little elbow room as they
are being transcribed so these areas of stops
are quite necessary for the production
of the coded areas.
that one protein doesn't -stop- with a single stop codon
just allows for more room when the protein is very large.
not sufficient for dramatic rewrites of new materials.

but this duplication is necessary during gestation
while not necessary after juvenile periods.

The vast majority (about 98.5%) of the human genome is not used at any
time during gestation or life to code proteins.

you don't know how much of these genes are used
for only a week or two during gestation like this
gene in the artical which turns on from week
7 to 19 and then shuts off.
prematur of you to say that you do know when in
that artical alone, they say that don't even
know what it does, just that it does something
for a brief time during gestation.

There is a single
cell amoeba that has 100 times as much DNA as a human cell, and it has
no gestation period whatsoever, just a lot of accumulated junk.

by your argument, organisms tend more towards
amassing junk drawers than amassing new and
useful genetic traits.
most people see nature as rigorously efficient
and so, your statement that such junk drawers
are being amassed is more liklely just a
consideration of the fact that you haven't
found out what these sections do, and simply
immediately assume that they are useless.
an amoeba with a larger genome that a human being
that does not manage to convert any of this 'junk'
to useful attributes doesn't bode well for any
assertion that new genetic materials form the
basis of new and useful qualities but just
amass as useless artifacts.
this sort of entailment tends to ruin any proposition
of a mechanism whereby new materials are being actively
used to write new and improved qualities into the genome
but simply amass as junk which never again serves
a useful purpose.
not that yuo have rigorously shown
your statements to be truthful.

The genome has around 3 billion base pairs, so that means that less
than 100 million actually codes for proteins.

according to you, when mutations occur, they
are relegated to junk drawers and not used any more,
and then you want to claim that these junk drawers
form the basis of new and valuable genetic traits
even after they have stopped being useful within
the organism itself.
not that i say your statement is
a clear presentation of fact.
so, your mechanism is this;
an organism forms a mutation, this mutation
is shoved off to a junk drawer where it no
longer perfoms actively in the organism and
subsequently, new mutations on this junk slowly
and gradually give that junk new and vital importance
and the organism pulls it out of the junk drawer
and starts coding more useful proteins with it.
what your mechanism actually tends to support is
the exact opposite in which junk drawers simply
amass and the organism rigorously maintains
its -present- condition and never changes form.
your mechanism would tend to -prevent-
changes in form and not encourage them.
so, your mechanism does not support
the theory but, again, discredit it.

much of the locations you do not know what they do,
do very specific things during gestation periods.

Much does nothing useful at all. Something between 8% and 25% of the
genome is remnants from retrovirus infections, for example.

your junk dawer theory discredits any
idea that new forms -ever- develop.
your junk drawer theory supports only the consideration
that a given organism as the ability to maintain exactly
it's -present- form even in light of disease attacks
and other deleterious outside influence.

there is no good mechanism to account for this.

Obviously, there is.

in sexually reporducing species, offspring spits
out extra chromosome sets and these chromosome sets
lay dormant on the organism while they are
rewritten to form new apparati.

Really?
Please provide a cite discussing dormant extra chromosome sets in
human beings. Even one extra chromosome is usually lethal, but around
1 in a thousand may survive.

exactly, so this isn't helpful in providing
new material for rewrites to occur.

to suggest that cultivated brassicas spit out extra
chromosomes when they revert to wild type forms and
then translate this to an entirely different form
of cell division and propose it for sexual reproduction
is implausible, and yet, that is the mechanism you may see proposed.

I suspect that you are talking about polyploidal plants, but I also
suspect that you have no idea what you are talking about.

the contention would be that you can cite
plant behavior as relevant to mammalian behavior.
two entirely different types of cell division at work though.
one with a cell wall forms in the middle
and one that pinches in the middle.

but what you see in practice is that
extra chromosome sets are all
too often lethal.

Show me a human being with an extra chromosome set.

exactly, not a plausible mechanism for genetic enrichment
from generation to generation to get from a simple 2 chromosome
creature which reproduces sexually to one of 46 chromosomes.
.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 23 Aug 2006 10:56:49 AM
Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

We *observe* change from one organism to another.


no, you observe a difference.

you assume only that the organisms
were ever the same species.

I assume that my parents and I are in the same species.

but you would be claiming that -new- genetic materials
are being manufactured over time


Mutations tend to do that, yes.


no, the neutral theory tends to suggest
that most mutations are neutral.


So. Neutral or non neutral, the result of mutations tends to be "new
genetic materials".


no, actually in a neutral mutation, the amount of
material remains the same but a single codon is
altered in such a manner as to allow no
significant damage to the coding of a given protein.

that's why it's neutral.

Actually, most neutral mutations occur in the 98% of the genome that
doesn't code for any protein.

I suspect that most lethal genes have had an insertion or a deletion
of several base pairs, although I'm sure that there are some that are
SNPs (Duchenne MD is, I think). No extra chromosomes are needed in
order to be lethal.


right, most major mutations are deleterious and
are quickly removed from the genome by virtue
of the organisms failure to reproduce itself.

But they AREN'T quickly removed. In most cases they are masked by
there being an unmutated version on the other chromosome. Only those
errors on the X and Y chromosome show up (in males which only have a
single copy of each).
Simulations have suggested that a harmful mutation can persist for
several dozen generations.

there is also some problem in your calling Duchenne's MD
and hemophilia 'mutations' inasmuch as they may be just
the entailments of an expression of a trait that already
exists on the genome that is -not- deleterious when covered
up by masking traits on other genes but as inbreedings
occur, these masking traits are removed and the deleterious
trait expresses and decreases survivability.

They are mutations. 1/3 of Duchenne's cases are caused by new
mutations that are not present in either parent.

but a mouse with muscular dystrophy is likely
to be left to die or even killed outright
before it has any chance of producing offspring.

So? His siblings, who may not have Duchenne's may be carriers.

There is a single
cell amoeba that has 100 times as much DNA as a human cell, and it has
no gestation period whatsoever, just a lot of accumulated junk.



by your argument, organisms tend more towards
amassing junk drawers than amassing new and
useful genetic traits.

They amass junk drawers. Some of those junk drawers contain traits
that may become useful in some future environmental change.

most people see nature as rigorously efficient

Nature isn't either rigorous or efficient. Nature is sloppy. It
makes mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes are beneficial to the
organism.
Go learn some biology.
lojbab
.
User: "Timothy Sutter"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 23 Aug 2006 12:33:57 PM
Bob LeChevalier wrote:


Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

We *observe* change from one organism to another.

no, the neutral theory tends to suggest
that most mutations are neutral.

So. Neutral or non neutral, the result of mutations tends to be "new
genetic materials".

no, actually in a neutral mutation, the amount of
material remains the same but a single codon is
altered in such a manner as to allow no
significant damage to the coding of a given protein.
that's why it's neutral.

Actually, most neutral mutations occur in the 98% of the genome that
doesn't code for any protein.

no, excess dormant and even atrophied
older traits just lay in junk drawers.

I suspect that most lethal genes have had an insertion or a deletion
of several base pairs, although I'm sure that there are some that are
SNPs (Duchenne MD is, I think). No extra chromosomes are needed in
order to be lethal.

right, most major mutations are deleterious and
are quickly removed from the genome by virtue
of the organisms failure to reproduce itself.

But they AREN'T quickly removed. In most cases they are masked by
there being an unmutated version on the other chromosome. Only those
errors on the X and Y chromosome show up (in males which only have a
single copy of each).

right, the traits are passed by carriers
who already have the trait.
the trait can become unmasked as bloodlines thin out.
it's not necessarily a mutation, it's just a regular trait
that has been cordoned off into a smaller segment
of the population somewhat like a beagle doesn't
carry all the genetic richness of its forbears and
it's forbears have bred the trait out but the beagle
has a trait that has been passed along -only- to
it and now it is stuck with the short legs.
the wold used to have the short leg trait masked,
but at some time after the beagle was bred from
a wolf like dog, the beagles traits were lost to
the wolf and only exist now in the beagle.
and now the smaller segment of the population
which carruies the trait has little protection
against it being expressed.
where the trait itself has a useful purpose in
musculature developement, but in improper
regulation, it damages like one may die of
iron poisioning in high doses but need iron
to survive in the proper dose.
if you can't distinguish the example
from the duchesne, i will rewrite it.

Simulations have suggested that a harmful mutation can persist for
several dozen generations.

a harmful expression of a pre-existing trait
can last for as long as the smaller segment of
the population who carries it remains reproducing.
the trait was there in the past,
it bred into a smaller segment of the
population and was significantly diminished
and then lost in the larger population.
and as the smaller segemnt breeds witin itself
more exclusiveley, it may become damging when
expressed in to great a dose with no regulation.
no new material,
just a distorted expression of old material.

there is also some problem in your calling Duchenne's MD
and hemophilia 'mutations' inasmuch as they may be just
the entailments of an expression of a trait that already
exists on the genome that is -not- deleterious when covered
up by masking traits on other genes but as inbreedings
occur, these masking traits are removed and the deleterious
trait expresses and decreases survivability.

They are mutations. 1/3 of Duchenne's cases are caused by new
mutations that are not present in either parent.

no, the unexpressed version was laying dormant
in a junk drawer and fell into place because a
regulating gene was absent in one of the parents.
there are several potential copies of the
trait and some lay dormant in junk drawers
when neither has the actual expressed trait,
there is still a potential for a junk drawer
expression in a given smaller segment
of the population.
the trait was there, got buried
in a junk drawer and expressed
by pure happenstance.

but a mouse with muscular dystrophy is likely
to be left to die or even killed outright
before it has any chance of producing offspring.

So? His siblings, who may not have Duchenne's may be carriers.

and all of it can be explained without
suggesting that there is new genetic
material being developed.

There is a single
cell amoeba that has 100 times as much DNA as a human cell, and it has
no gestation period whatsoever, just a lot of accumulated junk.

by your argument, organisms tend more towards
amassing junk drawers than amassing new and
useful genetic traits.

They amass junk drawers. Some of those junk drawers contain traits
that may become useful in some future environmental change.

and some may hold buried traits that
when expressed may have a deleterious effect
like a random occurance of duchesne which
was laying dormant and not a mutation at all.
but, this also assumes that environmental stressors educe
the expression of traits that have simply been
lying dormant and doing nothing
and not that the traits are -being- expressed and
this expression makes the organism more viable.
like saying that in a specie of birds
who never -express- a large beak
a large beak is immediately expressed
when the small nuts all disappear.
the large beak is laying completely dormant,
but as soon as the small nuts run out,
a big beak is exprssed.
this may or may not be due to any mutation at all.
but it is far fetched that such a thing would ever happen.
so, somehow, sayingh that junk drawers just
lay in wait for future necessity is a vague straw.
but, random expression of junk drawer traits that
may be laying dormant is possible, only not
new genetic material.
just regulated by other homeobox devices which
get focused and unfocused as bloodlines thin
out or what have you.

most people see nature as rigorously efficient

Nature isn't either rigorous or efficient.

dna replication itself whether subject to
misprints or not is rigorous and efficient.
dna replicates itself using itself
rigorously and efficiently as it's own template.

Nature is sloppy.

no, garlic has two tiny packets that each have
a different chemical that when crushed together
form a third chemical in situ.
that's not sloppy that's elegant.

It makes mistakes. Sometimes those
mistakes are beneficial to the organism.

no it just has no visible agenda as
to when and where junk drawer
traits express themselves.
.
User: "Timothy Sutter"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 23 Aug 2006 12:42:34 PM
see, and as an aside
this so-called 'junk drawer' thing is exactly
what i was considering the other day when i
was watching thelast of the Mohicans.
the Mohican is -out there- somewhere
but he is buried in a junk drawer
and -may- express himself.
-that's- what i was tring to say.
this 'junk drawer' is already filled with
traits some of which are simply unexpresswed
to the point of atrophy.
just remember, i don't say that
we sprang -up- from a single cell.
our progenitors were more gentically rich than we are now.
but much is still present atrophied in junk drawers.
it's a different look.
.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 24 Aug 2006 10:44:30 AM
Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

see, and as an aside

this so-called 'junk drawer' thing is exactly
what i was considering the other day when i
was watching thelast of the Mohicans.

Your mind is clearly a junk drawer. It is filled with junk.
"The Last of the Mohicans" is a piece of fiction. You've never seen a
Mohican and you never will.
Indeed, there never were any Mohicans, since the word is a misspelling
of either of one tribal names and another tribal confederation
(Mahican and Mohegan).
lojbab
.
User: "Timothy Sutter"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 24 Aug 2006 01:03:57 PM

Timothy Sutter wrote:

see, and as an aside
this so-called 'junk drawer' thing is exactly
what i was considering the other day when i
was watching thelast of the Mohicans.

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

Your mind is clearly a junk drawer. It is filled with junk.

i may have a junk floating around in there somewhere,
but also sampans and other types of boats that
float very well.

"The Last of the Mohicans" is a piece of fiction. You've never seen a
Mohican and you never will.

they're buried in some non-coding dna strains.
you don't know -how- that stuff -is- being expressed now.

Indeed, there never were any Mohicans, since the word is a misspelling
of either of one tribal names and another tribal confederation
(Mahican and Mohegan).

in crossword puzzles, Mohican would be
considered an acceptible variation for mohegan.
so, i can use the word i like and be understood.
even you understood that mohican
could be a form of mohegan.
.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 24 Aug 2006 03:01:45 PM
Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

Indeed, there never were any Mohicans, since the word is a misspelling
of either of one tribal names and another tribal confederation
(Mahican and Mohegan).


in crossword puzzles, Mohican would be
considered an acceptible variation for mohegan.

Rially? I rathir doubt it, sinci thi cross words at the "i" and the
"c" would thin bi irronious dui to thi misspillinc.

so, i can use the word i like and be understood.

Not by othirs.

even you understood that mohican
could be a form of mohegan.

It could bi a misspillinc of that word.
lojbab
.
User: "Timothy Sutter"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 24 Aug 2006 03:25:31 PM
Bob LeChevalier wrote:


Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

Indeed, there never were any Mohicans, since the word is a misspelling
of either of one tribal names and another tribal confederation
(Mahican and Mohegan).


in crossword puzzles, Mohican would be
considered an acceptible variation for mohegan.


Rially? I rathir doubt it, sinci thi cross words at the "i" and the
"c" would thin bi irronious dui to thi misspillinc.

well, when i feel like proofing my text i do and when i don't i don't.
.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 25 Aug 2006 03:32:17 AM
Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

Bob LeChevalier wrote:


Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

Indeed, there never were any Mohicans, since the word is a misspelling
of either of one tribal names and another tribal confederation
(Mahican and Mohegan).


in crossword puzzles, Mohican would be
considered an acceptible variation for mohegan.


Rially? I rathir doubt it, sinci thi cross words at the "i" and the
"c" would thin bi irronious dui to thi misspillinc.


well, when i feel like proofing my text i do and when i don't i don't.

I notice tonight that when you feel like having conversations with
yourself in Gibberish, you do that as well.
However, if you had "proofed your text" as you described, then your
statement would have referred to the "Last of the Mohegans". But
since that tribal confederation ceased to exist while there were still
many members of the formerly-confederated tribes, the statement would
still have made no sense, and it would not have been a Fenimore Cooper
title either.
Kinda like "the last citizen of the USSR", a phrase which has no
referent because before the USSR ceased to exist, there were millions
of such citizens, while instantaneously afterwards there were none.
I guess you could call this the theory of quantum collective nouns. I
also guess that you could spawn 30 posts on the subject, talking to
yourself and saying nothing.
lojbab
.
User: "Timothy Sutter"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 25 Aug 2006 04:34:51 AM

Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

Indeed, there never were any Mohicans, since the word is a misspelling
of either of one tribal names and another tribal confederation
(Mahican and Mohegan).

in crossword puzzles, Mohican would be
considered an acceptible variation for mohegan.

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

Rially? I rathir doubt it, sinci thi cross words at the "i" and the
"c" would thin bi irronious dui to thi misspillinc.

Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

well, when i feel like proofing my text i do and when i don't i don't.

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

I notice tonight that when you feel like having conversations with
yourself in Gibberish, you do that as well.

if you don't like my writing, you can always read something else.
.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 25 Aug 2006 07:34:20 PM
Timothy Sutter <a202010@lycos.com> wrote:

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

I notice tonight that when you feel like having conversations with
yourself in Gibberish, you do that as well.


if you don't like my writing, you can always read something else.

Well, I certainly *didn't* read all that crap.
lojbab
.
User: "Timothy Sutter"

Title: Re: Evolution of Man Doubted in Study 25 Aug 2006 08:37:07 PM

Timothy Sutter wrote:

if you don't like my writing, you can always read something else.

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

Well, I certainly *didn't* read all that crap.

i read