| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"15 years to get Zarqawi" |
| Date: |
11 Jun 2006 11:07:47 AM |
| Object: |
Haditha-Why Good People Kill |
Haditha - Why Good People Kill---
Iraq murders reveal the warping power of conformity and
dehumanization.
by Rosa Brooks
Are Americans good people?
After Vietnam - after My Lai, after the free-fire zones - many
Americans were no longer sure.
After Haditha, the same question is again beginning to haunt us. We're
supposed to be a virtuous nation; our troops are supposed to be the good
guys. If it turns out that Marines murdered 24 civilians, including children
and infants, how could that have happened?
In response to Haditha, U.S. government officials quickly reverted to
the "bad apple" theory.
It's a tempting theory, and not just for the Bush administration. It
suggests a vast and reassuring divide between "us" (the virtuous majority,
who would never, under any circumstances, commit coldblooded murder) and
"them" (the sociopathic, bad-apple minority). It allows us to hold on to our
belief in our collective goodness. If we can just toss the few rotten
Americans out of the barrel quickly enough, the rot won't spread.
The problem with this theory is that it rests on a false assumption
about the relationship between character and deeds. Yes, sociopaths exist,
but ordinary, "good" people are also perfectly capable of committing
atrocities.
In 1961, Yale psychologist Stanley Milgram conducted a famous
experiment. He told subjects to administer electric shocks to other people,
ostensibly to assess the effect of physical punishment on learning. In fact,
Milgram wanted to "test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on
another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental
scientist."
Quite a lot of pain, it turned out. Most of Milgram's subjects
continued to administer what they believed to be severe and agonizing shocks
even when their "victims" (actually Milgram's assistants) screamed and
begged them to stop.
Milgram's subjects weren't sociopaths. On the contrary, most expressed
extreme distress about administering progressively more severe shocks. But
almost all of them did it anyway.
Milgram's basic findings have been extended and confirmed since the
1960s. Depressingly, experimental evidence and historical experience suggest
that even the gentlest people can usually be induced to inflict or ignore
suffering.
There are several key factors that lead "good people" to do terrible
things. The first, as the Milgram experiments powerfully demonstrated, is
authority: Most ordinary people readily allow the dictates of "authorities"
to trump their own moral instincts.
The second is conformity. Few people have the courage to go against
the crowd.
The third is dehumanization of the victims. The Nazis routinely
depicted Jews as "vermin" in need of extermination, for instance. Similarly,
forcing victims to wear distinctive clothing (yellow stars, prison
uniforms), shave their heads and so on can powerfully contribute to their
dehumanization.
Orders, peer expectations and dehumanization need not be explicit to
have a powerful effect. In adversarial settings such as prisons or conflict
zones, subtle cues and omissions - the simple failure of authorities to send
frequent, clear and consistent messages about appropriate behavior, for
instance - can be as powerful as direct orders.
Against this backdrop, is it really surprising that ordinary, decent
Marines may have committed atrocities in Haditha? All the key ingredients
were present in one form or another: intense pressure from authorities to
capture or kill insurgents; intense pressure from peers to seem tough and to
avenge the deaths of comrades; the almost inevitable dehumanization that
occurs when two groups look different, speak different languages, live apart
and are separated by a chasm of mistrust.
Add in the discomfort, the fear, the constant uncertainty about the
identity and location of the enemy and the relative youth of so many of our
soldiers, and you have a recipe for atrocities committed not by "bad apples"
but by ordinary people little different, and probably no worse, than most of
us.
Of course, individuals still make their own choices. Most of Milgram's
experimental subjects administered severe electric shocks - but a few
refused. If Marines are proved to have massacred civilians at Haditha, they
should be punished accordingly.
But let's not let the Bush administration off the hook. It's the duty
of the government that sends troops to war to create a context that enables
and rewards compassion and courage rather than callousness and cruelty. This
administration has done just the opposite.
Our troops were sent to fight an unnecessary war, without adequate
resources or training for the challenges they faced. At the same time,
senior members of the administration made clear their disdain for the Geneva
Convention's rules on war and for the principles and traditions of the
military. Belated and halfhearted investigations into earlier abuses sent
the message that brutality would be winked at - unless the media noticed, in
which case a few bad apples would be ceremoniously ejected from the barrel,
while higher-ups would go unpunished.
If we're talking about apples, we should also keep another old proverb
in mind: The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Rosa Brooks is a professor at the University of Virginia School of
Law. Her experience includes service as a senior advisor at the U.S. State
Department's Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, as a consultant
for the Open Society Institute and Human Rights Watch, as a board member of
Amnesty International USA, and as a lecturer at Yale Law School. Brooks has
authored articles on international law, human rights, and the law of war,
and her book, "Can Might Make Rights? The Rule of Law After Military
Interventions" (with Jane Stromseth and David Wippman), will be published in
2006 by Cambridge University Press.
Copyright 2006 Los Angeles Times
###
.
|
|
| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
|
| Title: Re: Haditha-Why Good People Kill |
11 Jun 2006 02:23:53 PM |
|
|
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:ndXig.146036$F_3.12558@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Our troops were sent to fight an unnecessary war, without adequate
resources or training for the challenges they faced. At the same time,
senior members of the administration made clear their disdain for the
Geneva Convention's rules on war and for the principles and traditions of
the military. Belated and halfhearted investigations into earlier abuses
sent the message that brutality would be winked at - unless the media
noticed, in which case a few bad apples would be ceremoniously ejected
from the barrel, while higher-ups would go unpunished.
That is pure silliness. In order to say that any war is unnecesaary one
should define what "unnecessary" means. Saying it is "unnecessary" does not
make it "unnecessary". As for this claim that the President sent our people
to war, without adequate resources or traning, is also a meaningless
statement. We went to war with Japan and Germany when both of them had far
superior fighters than we had. We put up Sherman tanks which could not
knock out a German Panzer even with a direct hit. We went to war in Korea,
pitting F-51's against Soviet made MIG jets. Our fighters were no match for
the soviet supplied fighters that the North Vietnamese had.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jim E" |
|
| Title: Re: Haditha-Why Good People Kill |
12 Jun 2006 12:04:25 AM |
|
|
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:ndXig.146036$F_3.12558@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Haditha - Why Good People Kill---
As a defense against bad people.
Jim E
.
|
|
|
| User: "15 years to get Zarqawi" |
|
| Title: Re: Haditha-Why Good People Kill |
12 Jun 2006 09:40:16 AM |
|
|
"Jim E" <YD652326@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:4f4auhF1hff0rU1@individual.net...
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:ndXig.146036$F_3.12558@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Haditha - Why Good People Kill---
As a defense against bad people.
Jim E
Yes, sleeping women and children are terribly bad people. Who knows, they
might even have nightmares of American Soldiers kicking in their doors while
they're in bed and slaughtering their whole family with grenades and high
powered assault rifles.
Maybe their snoring was too much for the Marines, huh?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jim E" |
|
| Title: Re: Haditha-Why Good People Kill |
12 Jun 2006 03:52:03 PM |
|
|
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:k1fjg.44303$4L1.32845@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
"Jim E" <YD652326@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:4f4auhF1hff0rU1@individual.net...
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:ndXig.146036$F_3.12558@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Haditha - Why Good People Kill---
As a defense against bad people.
Jim E
Yes, sleeping women and children are terribly bad people. Who knows, they
might even have nightmares of American Soldiers kicking in their doors
while they're in bed and slaughtering their whole family with grenades and
high powered assault rifles.
Maybe their snoring was too much for the Marines, huh?
When information is lacking you just go into fantasy mode.
This is not the greatest method of appearing rational.
Jim E
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bush Kills Women" |
|
| Title: Re: Haditha-Why Good People Kill |
12 Jun 2006 06:01:33 PM |
|
|
"Jim E" <YD652326@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:4f62evF1gsdqsU1@individual.net...
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:k1fjg.44303$4L1.32845@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
"Jim E" <YD652326@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:4f4auhF1hff0rU1@individual.net...
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:ndXig.146036$F_3.12558@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Haditha - Why Good People Kill---
As a defense against bad people.
Jim E
Yes, sleeping women and children are terribly bad people. Who knows,
they might even have nightmares of American Soldiers kicking in their
doors while they're in bed and slaughtering their whole family with
grenades and high powered assault rifles.
Maybe their snoring was too much for the Marines, huh?
When information is lacking you just go into fantasy mode.
This is not the greatest method of appearing rational.
Jim E
Do keep up with current events, Jimmuh.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jim E" |
|
| Title: Re: Haditha-Why Good People Kill |
12 Jun 2006 06:44:54 PM |
|
|
"Bush Kills Women" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:hnmjg.147155$F_3.131683@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
"Jim E" <YD652326@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:4f62evF1gsdqsU1@individual.net...
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:k1fjg.44303$4L1.32845@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
"Jim E" <YD652326@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:4f4auhF1hff0rU1@individual.net...
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:ndXig.146036$F_3.12558@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Haditha - Why Good People Kill---
As a defense against bad people.
Jim E
Yes, sleeping women and children are terribly bad people. Who knows,
they might even have nightmares of American Soldiers kicking in their
doors while they're in bed and slaughtering their whole family with
grenades and high powered assault rifles.
Maybe their snoring was too much for the Marines, huh?
When information is lacking you just go into fantasy mode.
This is not the greatest method of appearing rational.
Jim E
Do keep up with current events, Jimmuh.
The blathering of liberals is not a source of knowledge about current
events.
Jim E
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bush Kills Women" |
|
| Title: Re: Haditha-Why Good People Kill |
13 Jun 2006 12:20:38 AM |
|
|
"Jim E" <YD652326@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:4f6cjoF1hh2geU1@individual.net...
"Bush Kills Women" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:hnmjg.147155$F_3.131683@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
"Jim E" <YD652326@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:4f62evF1gsdqsU1@individual.net...
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:k1fjg.44303$4L1.32845@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
"Jim E" <YD652326@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:4f4auhF1hff0rU1@individual.net...
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:ndXig.146036$F_3.12558@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Haditha - Why Good People Kill---
As a defense against bad people.
Jim E
Yes, sleeping women and children are terribly bad people. Who knows,
they might even have nightmares of American Soldiers kicking in their
doors while they're in bed and slaughtering their whole family with
grenades and high powered assault rifles.
Maybe their snoring was too much for the Marines, huh?
When information is lacking you just go into fantasy mode.
This is not the greatest method of appearing rational.
Jim E
Do keep up with current events, Jimmuh.
The blathering of liberals is not a source of knowledge about current
events.
Jim E
Maybe, maybe not but soldiers ARE kicking in doors and ARE shooting people
in their sleep.
You are proof that Pugs' brains are neanderthal.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jim E" |
|
| Title: Re: Haditha-Why Good People Kill |
13 Jun 2006 10:00:33 AM |
|
|
"Bush Kills Women" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:GWrjg.95454$H71.72707@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
"Jim E" <YD652326@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:4f6cjoF1hh2geU1@individual.net...
"Bush Kills Women" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:hnmjg.147155$F_3.131683@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
"Jim E" <YD652326@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:4f62evF1gsdqsU1@individual.net...
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:k1fjg.44303$4L1.32845@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
"Jim E" <YD652326@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:4f4auhF1hff0rU1@individual.net...
"15 years to get Zarqawi" <throwshit@bush.net> wrote in message
news:ndXig.146036$F_3.12558@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Haditha - Why Good People Kill---
As a defense against bad people.
Jim E
Yes, sleeping women and children are terribly bad people. Who knows,
they might even have nightmares of American Soldiers kicking in their
doors while they're in bed and slaughtering their whole family with
grenades and high powered assault rifles.
Maybe their snoring was too much for the Marines, huh?
When information is lacking you just go into fantasy mode.
This is not the greatest method of appearing rational.
Jim E
Do keep up with current events, Jimmuh.
The blathering of liberals is not a source of knowledge about current
events.
Jim E
Maybe, maybe not but soldiers ARE kicking in doors and ARE shooting people
in their sleep.
You are proof that Pugs' brains are neanderthal.
So you defend the blathering of liberals with liberal blathering.
Idjit!
Jim E
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "PagCal" |
|
| Title: Re: Haditha-Why Good People Kill |
11 Jun 2006 10:51:25 PM |
|
|
15 years to get Zarqawi wrote:
Haditha - Why Good People Kill---
Iraq murders reveal the warping power of conformity and
dehumanization.
by Rosa Brooks
Are Americans good people?
Humanity has a certain amount of 'evil' built into their genes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Roedy Green" |
|
| Title: Re: Haditha-Why Good People Kill |
12 Jun 2006 12:40:08 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:07:47 GMT, "15 years to get Zarqawi"
<throwshit@bush.net> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
said :
Yes, sociopaths exist,
but ordinary, "good" people are also perfectly capable of committing
atrocities.
These men were not a random selection of Americans. They are people
who put their lives at risk, accepted appalling living conditions, and
rotten pay why?
For a chance to kill, torture, rape and maim at will without worry of
a criminal record.
Any serial murderer or violent pedophile leaps at the opportunity.
..
..
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green, http://mindprod.com
"It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory."
~ W. Edwards Deming
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Haditha-Why Good People Kill |
12 Jun 2006 01:45:01 AM |
|
|
Roedy Green wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:07:47 GMT, "15 years to get Zarqawi"
<throwshit@bush.net> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
said :
Yes, sociopaths exist,
but ordinary, "good" people are also perfectly capable of committing
atrocities.
These men were not a random selection of Americans. They are people
who put their lives at risk, accepted appalling living conditions, and
rotten pay why?
For a chance to kill, torture, rape and maim at will without worry of
a criminal record.
Any serial murderer or violent pedophile leaps at the opportunity.
Did you hurt yourself, masturbating so hard while writing your
fantasies about military men?
--
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
