Politics > Politics-USA > IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO?
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Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"Tom Sr." |
| Date: |
27 May 2007 01:39:36 PM |
| Object: |
IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
......
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
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| User: "David R KEŽŠT" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
28 May 2007 12:12:06 AM |
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"Tom Sr." <tomswiftsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180291176.047299.316890@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
.....
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
Of course not, 650,000 have died, they have little hope for the future, the
war is lost and they don't have a clue which faction
will eventually prevail. Who and how many die depends on who eventually
gains control.
Their future is bleak, unless a country capable of conducting and winning a
war takes over, probably Iran,Syria, or both.
Eventually bush and cheney, true to their hillbilly coward nature will
desert and cut and run, they're just trying to
set someone else up to take the blame.
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| User: "David R" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
29 May 2007 11:50:05 PM |
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"Kevin Cunningham" <smskjv@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:%bU6i.14561$Ut6.3936@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"David R KEŽŠT" <ho.ho@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:Mut6i.7792$4Y.3176@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net...
Geez, don't blame we hillbillies for Bush and Cheney. Bush comes from New
England and Cheney from Montana. We hillbillies may have our problems but
were no Bush and Cheney.
by " hillbillies" I'm referring to the losing, failing,inbred, gutless,bow
legged, cross eyed,
ignorant fuckups who belong to the republicon Nazi,KKK party, and who fuckup
everything they touch
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| User: "Roger" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
28 May 2007 05:44:30 AM |
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"Tom Sr." <tomswiftsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180291176.047299.316890@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
.....
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
Is anything Bush has touched better off?
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| User: "A Veteran" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
28 May 2007 09:00:16 AM |
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In article <465ab28e$0$10144$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
"Roger" <rogerfx@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Tom Sr." <tomswiftsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180291176.047299.316890@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
.....
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
Is anything Bush has touched better off?
No,
How 'bout the cost of the Iraq War?
http://tagheuerblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/republican-nightmare.html
So far $392.6 Billion and adding about $4 thousand a second.
--
when you believe the only tool you have is a hammer.
All problems look like nails.
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| User: "Tom Sr." |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
28 May 2007 06:23:01 AM |
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On May 28, 6:44 am, "Roger" <roge...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Is anything Bush has touched better off?
Still about 30% of the people of America believe so.
I very much doubt they will ever ask themselves this question.
-Tom Sr.
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| User: "Billzz" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
27 May 2007 02:23:17 PM |
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"Tom Sr." <tomswiftsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180291176.047299.316890@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
.....
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
That is a loaded question because you are comparing a war situation to an
economic situation.
You could ask the same question of the Germans and Japanese in 1945, or
Americans at the end of the civil war, and get any number of answers, but,
framed within the political perspective, the answers would simply reflect
the person's politics.
But I'm posting from soc.veterans so I don't know any political stuff.
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| User: "Nebuchadnezzar II" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
27 May 2007 03:58:07 PM |
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"Billzz" <billzzstring@starband.net> wrote in message
news:963a$4659daaa$9440b19b$10052@STARBAND.NET...
"Tom Sr." <tomswiftsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180291176.047299.316890@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
.....
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
That is a loaded question because you are comparing a war situation to
an economic situation.
You could ask the same question of the Germans and Japanese in 1945,
or Americans at the end of the civil war, and get any number of
answers, but, framed within the political perspective, the answers
would simply reflect the person's politics.
But I'm posting from soc.veterans so I don't know any political stuff.
Even if you want to go down the road of comparing apples to oranges,
West Germany and Japan were unquestionably far better off 4 years after
WWII ended.
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| User: "David R KEŽŠ" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
28 May 2007 12:13:01 AM |
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"Nebuchadnezzar II" <Nebuchadnezzar@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:zhm6i.6039$3B1.2537@trnddc08...
"Billzz" <billzzstring@starband.net> wrote in message
news:963a$4659daaa$9440b19b$10052@STARBAND.NET...
"Tom Sr." <tomswiftsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180291176.047299.316890@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
.....
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
That is a loaded question because you are comparing a war situation to an
economic situation.
You could ask the same question of the Germans and Japanese in 1945, or
Americans at the end of the civil war, and get any number of answers,
but, framed within the political perspective, the answers would simply
reflect the person's politics.
But I'm posting from soc.veterans so I don't know any political stuff.
Even if you want to go down the road of comparing apples to oranges, West
Germany and Japan were unquestionably far better off 4 years after WWII
ended.
they started their wars, and weren't in a civil war at the end
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| User: "Cormagh" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
28 May 2007 06:26:48 AM |
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On May 27, 1:58 pm, "Nebuchadnezzar II" <Nebuchadnez...@microsoft.com>
wrote:
"Billzz" <billzzstr...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:963a$4659daaa$9440b19b$10052@STARBAND.NET...
"Tom Sr." <tomswif...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180291176.047299.316890@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
.....
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
That is a loaded question because you are comparing a war situation to
an economic situation.
You could ask the same question of the Germans and Japanese in 1945,
or Americans at the end of the civil war, and get any number of
answers, but, framed within the political perspective, the answers
would simply reflect the person's politics.
But I'm posting from soc.veterans so I don't know any political stuff.
Even if you want to go down the road of comparing apples to oranges,
West Germany and Japan were unquestionably far better off 4 years after
WWII ended.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
That's simply not true. One tiny part of one city, West Berlin, may
have been better off that when the war started, but that does not mean
that the whole country, both East and West, was better. Large sections
of Germany were laid to waste by the Americans and Soviets, and there
was no "German miracle" as early as 1949. Without going it the
justifications, prior to the American attack, Germany had clearly
achieved the strongest economy in Europe or Asia.
As for Japan, ditto, it was not until the 60's that Japan began to
expand again at the rate they had prior to the war. Once again, I am
not moralizing about America's right to attack these countries, I am
merely stating that both of these countries were in a strong period of
economic growth and competition with America at the time the were
attacked, and to compare their situations 4 years after they were
destroyed with their prewar vigor is simply ridiculous. It is like
thinking that they "were better off", because they thought more like
Americans.
I don't think the question about Iraq is loaded, because you don't
have to compare it with the U.S. under Reagan; that is really
irrelevant, because we weren't attacked by a foreign power, and we
were not in a civil war. Ask an Iraqi (one who lives there) if they
are better off. Better yet, read a book by Khaled Hosseini, or by one
of the several Iraqi politicians who have recently published their
memoirs if you want to understand their country's situation from their
perspective.
Cormagh
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| User: "Billzz" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
28 May 2007 05:20:02 PM |
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"Cormagh" <cookleon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180351608.812327.150950@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On May 27, 1:58 pm, "Nebuchadnezzar II" <Nebuchadnez...@microsoft.com>
wrote:
"Billzz" <billzzstr...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:963a$4659daaa$9440b19b$10052@STARBAND.NET...
"Tom Sr." <tomswif...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180291176.047299.316890@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
.....
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
That is a loaded question because you are comparing a war situation to
an economic situation.
You could ask the same question of the Germans and Japanese in 1945,
or Americans at the end of the civil war, and get any number of
answers, but, framed within the political perspective, the answers
would simply reflect the person's politics.
But I'm posting from soc.veterans so I don't know any political stuff.
Even if you want to go down the road of comparing apples to oranges,
West Germany and Japan were unquestionably far better off 4 years after
WWII ended.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
That's simply not true. One tiny part of one city, West Berlin, may
have been better off that when the war started, but that does not mean
that the whole country, both East and West, was better. Large sections
of Germany were laid to waste by the Americans and Soviets, and there
was no "German miracle" as early as 1949. Without going it the
justifications, prior to the American attack, Germany had clearly
achieved the strongest economy in Europe or Asia.
As for Japan, ditto, it was not until the 60's that Japan began to
expand again at the rate they had prior to the war. Once again, I am
not moralizing about America's right to attack these countries, I am
merely stating that both of these countries were in a strong period of
economic growth and competition with America at the time the were
attacked, and to compare their situations 4 years after they were
destroyed with their prewar vigor is simply ridiculous. It is like
thinking that they "were better off", because they thought more like
Americans.
I don't think the question about Iraq is loaded, because you don't
have to compare it with the U.S. under Reagan; that is really
irrelevant, because we weren't attacked by a foreign power, and we
were not in a civil war. Ask an Iraqi (one who lives there) if they
are better off. Better yet, read a book by Khaled Hosseini, or by one
of the several Iraqi politicians who have recently published their
memoirs if you want to understand their country's situation from their
perspective.
Cormagh
I used the number 4, but if you like a different number, 8 is okay. The
point is that no one knows how well-off they will be once the war is over.
Presumably the power of democracy will make them bloom like south Korea,
et.al. We just don't know now, and are not likely to know for some time.
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| User: "Tom Sr." |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
27 May 2007 04:16:16 PM |
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On May 27, 3:23 pm, "Billzz" <billzzstr...@starband.net> wrote:
"Tom Sr." <tomswif...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180291176.047299.316890@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
.....
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
That is a loaded question because you are comparing a war situation to an
economic situation.
Nope. Not in the slightest. I am not talking about any economy, I am
talking about being *better*. There are lots and lots of ways things
can be better or worse as a whole, merely than financial.
I noticed, of course, you used this excuse to avoid answering the
question.
But I'm posting from soc.veterans so I don't know any political stuff.
You are saying you only follow orders?
-Tom Sr.
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| User: "Billzz" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
27 May 2007 07:24:02 PM |
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"Tom Sr." <tomswiftsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180300576.592787.233320@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On May 27, 3:23 pm, "Billzz" <billzzstr...@starband.net> wrote:
"Tom Sr." <tomswif...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180291176.047299.316890@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
.....
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
That is a loaded question because you are comparing a war situation to an
economic situation.
Nope. Not in the slightest. I am not talking about any economy, I am
talking about being *better*. There are lots and lots of ways things
can be better or worse as a whole, merely than financial.
I noticed, of course, you used this excuse to avoid answering the
question.
Oh, what the heck. I was trying to say that only an Iraqi can answer that
question, and then only after a period of time. I was on the DMZ in Korea,
after the war, and the average South Korean was in very bad shape. Look at
them now. I was in Germany in the 1960s, and talked to a number of people
who had received Marshall Plan aid. One even had American cows shipped to
Germany. They were Displaced Persons after the war, but look at them now.
So I'm not avoiding the question. You just can't ask *me* to have an answer
(and if I did have an answer I'm unsure how *real* it would be.) I don't
vote in Iraq.
But I'm posting from soc.veterans so I don't know any political stuff.
You are saying you only follow orders?
No, I enlisted in the army as a private and retired as a colonel, and am
mostly apolitical, which is why I recognized that what a number of
politicized people see in Iraq is a reflection of their politics, not any
concrete measure of effectiveness. You seem to see it bad. Four years from
now may be different - well, hopefully.
-Tom Sr.
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| User: "Stop The War" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
27 May 2007 04:57:34 PM |
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"Tom Sr." <tomswiftsr@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1180291176.047299.316890@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
BAGHDAD, Dec. 29 [2006] (UPI) -- About 90 percent of Iraqis feel the situation
in the country was better before the U.S.-led invasion than it is
today, according to a new ICRSS poll. ... Only five percent of those
questioned said Iraq is better today than in 2003.
<http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20061229-101021-1168r>
I believe this answers the question.
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| User: "Tom Sr." |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
27 May 2007 06:28:03 PM |
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On May 27, 5:57 pm, "Stop The War" <stopthe...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
"Tom Sr." <tomswif...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1180291176.047299.316890@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
BAGHDAD, Dec. 29 [2006] (UPI) -- About 90 percent
of Iraqis feel the situation in the country was better before
the U.S.-led invasion than it is today, according to a new
ICRSS poll. ... Only five percent of those questioned said
Iraq is better today than in 2003.
<http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=2006122...>
I believe this answers the question.
Well, not really.
You gave the true Iraqi perspective.
Then there are what some Americans *believe*.
-Tom Sr.
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| User: "Bill Dunkenfield" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOURYEARS AGO? |
30 May 2007 09:16:20 AM |
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"Tom Sr." wrote:
.....
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
No
JAM
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| User: "cavvie" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
27 May 2007 09:21:13 PM |
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Tom Sr. wrote:
In the 1980 Presidential debates, Ronald Reagan asked the memorable
question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?"
Now to paraphrase it on this Memorial Day weekend of 2007:
"Is Iraq better off today than it was 4 years ago?"
-Tom Sr.
Yes. Iraq is economically, socially and spiritually far, far worse off
than it was before our president invaded. In fact, in a recent survey
the majority of Iraqis stated that they were much better off under
Saddam Hussein than they are under the American-led coalition.
During WW2 our country defeated the Nazi's and Italians in Iraq in
less than three weeks. Our current Army has been in Iraq for over four
years, with no victory in sight.
Perhaps those who voted for a draft-dodger, illegal drug abuser,
alcoholic... not to mention the first president in our history to have
a criminal conviction on his record... will not make a similar error
in 2008.
Unfortantly, it was the alcholics, drug abusers, military wannabes and
losers in our country who voted for Bush. We cannot expect these
morons to see their wrong. In fact, they continue to defend Bush.
In reality, we all know that they are really defending their own
personal failures in life.
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| User: "David R KEŽŠT" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
28 May 2007 12:16:26 AM |
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"cavvie" <thefirstcav@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180318873.849053.283170@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Yes. Iraq is economically, socially and spiritually far, far worse off
than it was before our president invaded. In fact, in a recent survey
the majority of Iraqis stated that they were much better off under
Saddam Hussein than they are under the American-led coalition.
During WW2 our country defeated the Nazi's and Italians in Iraq in
less than three weeks. Our current Army has been in Iraq for over four
years, with no victory in sight.
Perhaps those who voted for a draft-dodger, illegal drug abuser,
alcoholic... not to mention the first president in our history to have
a criminal conviction on his record... will not make a similar error
in 2008.
Unfortantly, it was the alcholics, drug abusers, military wannabes and
losers in our country who voted for Bush. We cannot expect these
morons to see their wrong. In fact, they continue to defend Bush.
In reality, we all know that they are really defending their own
personal failures in life.
very nice, jump on those ignorant, losing, failing hillbilly fuckups,
there was a time when hillbillies were seen and not heard, and the world was
a better place,
***** slap a hillbilly today and show him his place
keep the North Beautiful, put a hillbilly on a bus, to Mexico
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: IMPORTANT MEMORIAL DAY QUESTION: Is Iraq BETTER OFF than it was FOUR YEARS AGO? |
28 May 2007 08:27:22 AM |
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On May 27, 10:16 pm, "David R KE=AE=A9T" <h...@yahoo.net> wrote:
"cavvie" <thefirst...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180318873.849053.283170@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Yes. Iraq is economically, socially and spiritually far, far worse off
than it was before our president invaded. In fact, in a recent survey
the majority of Iraqis stated that they were much better off under
Saddam Hussein than they are under the American-led coalition.
During WW2 our country defeated the Nazi's and Italians in Iraq in
less than three weeks. Our current Army has been in Iraq for over four
years, with no victory in sight.
Perhaps those who voted for a draft-dodger, illegal drug abuser,
alcoholic... not to mention the first president in our history to have
a criminal conviction on his record... will not make a similar error
in 2008.
Unfortantly, it was the alcholics, drug abusers, military wannabes and
losers in our country who voted for Bush. We cannot expect these
morons to see their wrong. In fact, they continue to defend Bush.
In reality, we all know that they are really defending their own
personal failures in life.
very nice, jump on those ignorant, losing, failing hillbilly fuckups,
there was a time when hillbillies were seen and not heard, and the world =
was
a better place,
***** slap a hillbilly today and show him his place
keep the North Beautiful, put a hillbilly on a bus, to Mexico
I never thought that PNAC, the CFR, Pearle, Feith, Wolfowitz, Scooter,
and the Chamber of Commerce could all be lumped together as
"hillbillies"..
.
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