| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"Harry Hope" |
| Date: |
16 Feb 2007 03:31:38 PM |
| Object: |
Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb16,1,7126527.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
PRESIDENT BUSH HAS now definitively stated that bombs known as
explosively formed penetrators — EFPs, which have proved especially
deadly for U.S. troops in Iraq — are made in Iran and exported to
Iraq.
But in November, U.S. troops raiding a Baghdad machine shop came
across a pile of copper disks, 5 inches in diameter, stamped out as
part of what was clearly an ongoing order.
This ominous discovery, unreported until now, makes it clear that
Iraqi insurgents have no need to rely on Iran as the source of EFPs.
The truth is that EFPs are simple to make for anyone who knows how to
do it.
Far from a sophisticated assembly operation that might require state
supervision, all that is required is one of those disks, some
high-powered explosive (which is easy to procure in Iraq) and a
container, such as a piece of pipe.
I asked a Pentagon analyst specializing in such devices how much each
one would cost to make.
"Twenty bucks," he answered after a brief calculation.
"Thirty at most."
EFPs work by using explosives to compress, melt and shoot a metal
projectile — formed from those disks, molded in a concave shape — in a
particular direction.
They are feared above all else by troops in Iraq because not only can
they punch a hole through the armor of an M-1 tank, they are small and
light, and thus far easier to carry and plant undetected than the
traditional Iraqi improvised explosive device, which is often made
from hefty artillery shells.
"You can do as much or more damage with a 5-pound EFP, which is aimed,
as with a 200-pound conventional IED, where most of the energy is
dissipated away from the target," the Pentagon analyst said.
The U.S. has (belatedly) responded to the IED threat by "up-armoring"
Humvees and other vulnerable vehicles, but EFPs can cleave through the
very thickest armor "like butter," as one Iraq veteran told me.
As of now, these weapons represent only a small fraction of the bombs
used against U.S. forces.
Last month, according to my Pentagon sources, out of 3,000 IEDs
directed at occupation troops, only 2.5% were EFPs.
But a further statistic explains why these particular weapons are so
feared by soldiers encased in their armored vehicles:
Despite the relatively tiny number deployed, since November they have
accounted for fully 15% of U.S. bomb casualties, and that percentage
is ticking up.
Anyone pondering the implications of this trend need only look to the
Israeli experience in Lebanon during the 1990s to see where it might
end.
"These bombs drove the Israelis out of Lebanon," a former Pentagon
weapons-effects expert told me unequivocally.
Hezbollah's expertise with EFPs is one reason why the administration,
despite minimal intelligence, has been quick to blame Hezbollah's
Iranian allies for the proliferation of the devices in Iraq.
But EFPs have a venerable history.
The IRA used them with lethal effect against British troops in
Northern Ireland, as did French resistance fighters against the
Germans in World War II.
It is only a question of time before someone shows the Taliban how to
make them, and then NATO forces in Afghanistan will begin the same
ordeal.
Despite their known lethality, these weapons weren't taken into
account by former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's program of
military "transformation."
Indeed, Rumsfeld bequeathed the Army the Future Combat Systems, a
$168-billion extravaganza of computers, sensors and robots deemed by
its proponents so deadly to a foe that armor on U.S. military vehicles
might be dispensed with altogether.
Once it became impossible to ignore the threat of all kinds of
"home-made" bombs, and EFPs in particular, Rumsfeld responded in
orthodox fashion by throwing money at the problem.
A "joint IED defeat" task force was created to address the issue, and
last year it was granted $3.32 billion, but with little result.
_________________________________________________
hARRY
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
18 Feb 2007 11:15:14 AM |
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Gogarty wrote:
P.S. The next oil crunch should Bush's antics shut off the Persian Gulf will
make 1974 look like a mere belt tightening. You don't ensure your oil
supplies by attempting to steal them. It works for awhile but then the people
who actually own the oil get *****.
Attempting to steal Iraqi oil was actually the belt-tightening, IMO.
The cut in production from Iraqs fields has made many a Texan rich.
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 09:20:09 PM |
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Gogarty wrote:
In article <AHFBh.109$4J4.55@trnddc01>, says...
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:XXBBh.209$vg7.69@newsfe05.lga...
http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1692347&page=1
The Left wants to pretend Iran isn't involved but that doesn't make it the
truth.
I don't think that's true at all. Iran has a disaster playing out on its
doorstep and has to be deeply concerned that it could spill over. On the other
hand, that's their part of the world, not the US's, and they naturally have a
deep interest in doing what they can to shape events to thier benefit. That
may be inconvenient for the US, which has no business being there in the
first place, but that's the way it is. Saber rattling will have no effect.
They won't back down and nothing will make them do so. That's the reality.
But what if the Reichtards order the Joint Chiefs to execute an illegal
attack against the IRI? Will the old Warhorses strap on their sidearms
and take a ride to the Oval Office, with a mind to putting Chimpoleon
under arrest?
They ought to. Attacking Iran would precipitate the greatest disaster
in American history, or perhaps the history of planet Earth, should
things really get out of hand.
God Help Us All
:-\
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 09:16:11 PM |
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PLMerite wrote:
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:XXBBh.209$vg7.69@newsfe05.lga...
<OT DIVERSION DELETED>
Respond to the post, or start a new thread, Reichtard.
Here it is again, in full:
PLMerite wrote:
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:igBBh.3405$963.923@newsfe03.lga...
Neolibertarian wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb16,1,71265
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international
conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is
against the
US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed
together
since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.
You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can
see the
fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this
LA Times
article.
Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.
If the US army would provide me with a humvee, some copper disks, a
pipe, and some explosives (10 lbs plastique, a detonator cap,
some fuse
cord), I would gladly go out and build an IED on their site and
throughly destroy the humvee with one blast.
Of course, they won't, because they know how silly it is to build an
explosive AP round and bury it in the ground.
It takes as little as four pounds of explosive to destroy a
humvee. It's
public knowledge by now.
All this hype about you need some sort of sophisticated manufacturing
process is pure rubbish.
I believe the complaint is that these new gizmos are a bit more
sophisticated than burying an artillery shell or a blob of plastique.
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn, ANDREW COCKBURN is the author of "Rumsfeld, His
Rise, Fall and Catastrophic Legacy," published this month by Scribner.
February 16, 2007
PRESIDENT BUSH HAS now definitively stated that bombs known as
explosively formed penetrators — EFPs, which have proved especially
deadly for U.S. troops in Iraq — are made in Iran and exported to Iraq.
But in November, U.S. troops raiding a Baghdad machine shop came across
a pile of copper disks, 5 inches in diameter, stamped out as part of
what was clearly an ongoing order. This ominous discovery, unreported
until now, makes it clear that Iraqi insurgents have no need to rely on
Iran as the source of EFPs.
The truth is that EFPs are simple to make for anyone who knows how to do
it. Far from a sophisticated assembly operation that might require state
supervision, all that is required is one of those disks, some
high-powered explosive (which is easy to procure in Iraq) and a
container, such as a piece of pipe. I asked a Pentagon analyst
specializing in such devices how much each one would cost to make.
"Twenty bucks," he answered after a brief calculation. "Thirty at most."
EFPs work by using explosives to compress, melt and shoot a metal
projectile — formed from those disks, molded in a concave shape — in a
particular direction. They are feared above all else by troops in Iraq
because not only can they punch a hole through the armor of an M-1 tank,
they are small and light, and thus far easier to carry and plant
undetected than the traditional Iraqi improvised explosive device, which
is often made from hefty artillery shells.
"You can do as much or more damage with a 5-pound EFP, which is aimed,
as with a 200-pound conventional IED, where most of the energy is
dissipated away from the target," the Pentagon analyst said. The U.S.
has (belatedly) responded to the IED threat by "up-armoring" Humvees and
other vulnerable vehicles, but EFPs can cleave through the very thickest
armor "like butter," as one Iraq veteran told me.
As of now, these weapons represent only a small fraction of the bombs
used against U.S. forces. Last month, according to my Pentagon sources,
out of 3,000 IEDs directed at occupation troops, only 2.5% were EFPs.
But a further statistic explains why these particular weapons are so
feared by soldiers encased in their armored vehicles: Despite the
relatively tiny number deployed, since November they have accounted for
fully 15% of U.S. bomb casualties, and that percentage is ticking up.
Anyone pondering the implications of this trend need only look to the
Israeli experience in Lebanon during the 1990s to see where it might
end. "These bombs drove the Israelis out of Lebanon," a former Pentagon
weapons-effects expert told me unequivocally.
Hezbollah's expertise with EFPs is one reason why the administration,
despite minimal intelligence, has been quick to blame Hezbollah's
Iranian allies for the proliferation of the devices in Iraq. But EFPs
have a venerable history. The IRA used them with lethal effect against
British troops in Northern Ireland, as did French resistance fighters
against the Germans in World War II. It is only a question of time
before someone shows the Taliban how to make them, and then NATO forces
in Afghanistan will begin the same ordeal.
Despite their known lethality, these weapons weren't taken into account
by former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's program of military
"transformation." Indeed, Rumsfeld bequeathed the Army the Future Combat
Systems, a $168-billion extravaganza of computers, sensors and robots
deemed by its proponents so deadly to a foe that armor on U.S. military
vehicles might be dispensed with altogether.
Once it became impossible to ignore the threat of all kinds of
"home-made" bombs, and EFPs in particular, Rumsfeld responded in
orthodox fashion by throwing money at the problem.
A "joint IED defeat" task force was created to address the issue, and
last year it was granted $3.32 billion, but with little result. True,
each Humvee patrolling Iraqi roads now carries two specially designed
jammers, costing $100,000 apiece, that jam radio signals detonating
roadside bombs. The other side has simply switched to wire detonators or
infrared systems. One hundred towers spouting remote cameras, at $12
million each, watch main roads for bomb planters, with no improvement in
attack and casualty statistics.
Rumsfeld's mentor, defense intellectual Andrew Marshall, marketed the
phrase "revolution in military affairs" as a justification for high-tech
programs such as Future Combat Systems. But those copper disks represent
the real revolution in military affairs, and it is not in our favor.
Regards, PLMerite
Care to respond to that article, dipwad?
The one that Bushlerites can't wrap their brains around. The EPD has
been in use since the French Maquis, and was also effective in Ireland.
Are you in favor of invading/bombing Eire?
Regards, PLMerite
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| User: "PLMerite" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
18 Feb 2007 07:01:20 AM |
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"Defendario" <Defendario@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:53puj5F1svgb4U1@mid.individual.net...
PLMerite wrote:
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:XXBBh.209$vg7.69@newsfe05.lga...
<OT DIVERSION DELETED>
Respond to the post, or start a new thread, Reichtard.
First off, go ***** yourself. Maybe in the Faber College dorm you're
something. Here, you're just another leftist *****.
Here it is again, in full:
(snip)
A lot of the explosives, RPGs, MANPADS, etc. are traceable to Iran.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/pdf/iran-in-iraq.pdf
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/12/news/arms.php
Why is it so important to you that they not be from Iran?
Regards, PLMerite
--
"Whether they admit it or not, the Democrats need lawbreakers such as
illegal aliens -- who are being illegally registered as Democrats -- and
killers, rapists and robbers in order to increase their base of far-left
voters." Mike Baker, political strategist and pollster.
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
18 Feb 2007 11:20:26 AM |
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PLMerite wrote:
"Defendario" <Defendario@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:53puj5F1svgb4U1@mid.individual.net...
PLMerite wrote:
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:XXBBh.209$vg7.69@newsfe05.lga...
<OT DIVERSION DELETED>
Respond to the post, or start a new thread, Reichtard.
First off, go ***** yourself. Maybe in the Faber College dorm you're
something. Here, you're just another leftist *****.
You are a Reichtard *****. You ***** yourself in your mom's basement,
most likely.
Here it is again, in full:
(snip)
Can't address the content of the article, eh?
Figures :-\
A lot of the explosives, RPGs, MANPADS, etc. are traceable to Iran.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/pdf/iran-in-iraq.pdf
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/12/news/arms.php
I'm not clicking your links, shitbird. C&P some pithy bits if you are
interested in discussion.
Why is it so important to you that they not be from Iran?
We better not try to touch Persia, fool. If we do, we'll find out why
it's called the *Persian* Gulf. And precious IsReeL will get the
Holocaust they have coming to them, like they have never had before.
Finally, you better get yourself a bicycle, because gas is going to run
$10/gal or more.
Ready for those unintended consequences, Reichty? I'm not.
I'd rather deal with a few casualties in Iraq, or better yet, get out of
Iraq ASAP.
Mission there is over, 'tard. We lost.
Regards, PLMerite
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| User: "PLMerite" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
18 Feb 2007 02:37:28 PM |
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"Defendario" <Defendario@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:53rg22F1u8q4tU1@mid.individual.net...
PLMerite wrote:
"Defendario" <Defendario@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:53puj5F1svgb4U1@mid.individual.net...
PLMerite wrote:
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:XXBBh.209$vg7.69@newsfe05.lga...
<OT DIVERSION DELETED>
Respond to the post, or start a new thread, Reichtard.
First off, go ***** yourself. Maybe in the Faber College dorm you're
something. Here, you're just another leftist *****.
You are a Reichtard *****. You ***** yourself in your mom's basement,
most likely.
Here it is again, in full:
(snip)
Can't address the content of the article, eh?
Figures :-\
How many different ways do I have to say the article doesn't mean *****?
So they can make some shaped charges in Iraq. That doesn't change the fact
that they're also being supplied by Iran.
The Viet Cong made crude rifles in jungle workshops. They were also getting
better stuff from Russia and China.
A lot of the explosives, RPGs, MANPADS, etc. are traceable to Iran.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/pdf/iran-in-iraq.pdf
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/12/news/arms.php
I'm not clicking your links, shitbird. C&P some pithy bits if you are
interested in discussion.
No, you're a big boy, you can exert a little effort on your own.
Why is it so important to you that they not be from Iran?
We better not try to touch Persia, fool. If we do, we'll find out why
it's called the *Persian* Gulf. And precious IsReeL will get the
Holocaust they have coming to them, like they have never had before.
Finally, you better get yourself a bicycle, because gas is going to run
$10/gal or more.
Scratch a leftist and you uncover someone fantasizing about another
Holocaust.
And you imply I'm a Nazi.
Well, that's it for you, Adolf.
Regards, PLMerite
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
18 Feb 2007 03:59:56 PM |
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PLMerite wrote:
"Defendario" <Defendario@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:53rg22F1u8q4tU1@mid.individual.net...
PLMerite wrote:
"Defendario" <Defendario@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:53puj5F1svgb4U1@mid.individual.net...
PLMerite wrote:
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:XXBBh.209$vg7.69@newsfe05.lga...
<OT DIVERSION DELETED>
Respond to the post, or start a new thread, Reichtard.
First off, go ***** yourself. Maybe in the Faber College dorm you're
something. Here, you're just another leftist *****.
You are a Reichtard *****. You ***** yourself in your mom's basement,
most likely.
Here it is again, in full:
(snip)
Can't address the content of the article, eh?
Figures :-\
How many different ways do I have to say the article doesn't mean *****?
That's your (worthless) opinion Reichtard.
So they can make some shaped charges in Iraq. That doesn't change the fact
that they're also being supplied by Iran.
It doesn't mean that Iran is supplying them either, but it argues
against it. Why import what you can produce on site?
The Viet Cong made crude rifles in jungle workshops. They were also getting
better stuff from Russia and China.
And did we declare war on or attack them for doing so?
A lot of the explosives, RPGs, MANPADS, etc. are traceable to Iran.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/pdf/iran-in-iraq.pdf
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/12/news/arms.php
I'm not clicking your links, shitbird. C&P some pithy bits if you are
interested in discussion.
No, you're a big boy, you can exert a little effort on your own.
Sorry. I don't d/l pdfs from dodgy sources
Why is it so important to you that they not be from Iran?
We better not try to touch Persia, fool. If we do, we'll find out why
it's called the *Persian* Gulf. And precious IsReeL will get the
Holocaust they have coming to them, like they have never had before.
Finally, you better get yourself a bicycle, because gas is going to run
$10/gal or more.
Scratch a leftist and you uncover someone fantasizing about another
Holocaust.
That's what's coming, zioNist. Try not to cry.
And you imply I'm a Nazi.
You are. You're obviously a crypto-fascist who supports zioNazism
Well, that's it for you, Adolf.
That's not my handle, assKlown
Regards, PLMerite
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| User: "Sid9" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 10:20:50 AM |
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Right, they stamp all their
munitions in English so as
to keep their weaponry
secret from their Farsi
speaking citizens.
PLMerite wrote:
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:XXBBh.209$vg7.69@newsfe05.lga...
http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1692347&page=1
The Left wants to pretend Iran isn't involved but that doesn't make
it the truth.
Regards, PLMerite
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 09:16:51 PM |
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Sid9 wrote:
Right, they stamp all their
munitions in English so as
to keep their weaponry
secret from their Farsi
speaking citizens.
Wouldn't you?
;-)
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| User: "Baldin Lee Pramer" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 10:21:33 AM |
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On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1...
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
Baldin Lee Pramer
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| User: "Neolibertarian" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 11:01:05 AM |
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In article <1171729293.863608.173240@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPramer@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1...
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
--
NeoLibertarian
"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people,
and therefore deprive them of their arms."
---Aristotle
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| User: "Gogarty" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 02:56:01 PM |
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In article <cognac756-836B9B.11010517022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
cognac756@yahoo.com says...
In article <1171729293.863608.173240@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPramer@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1...
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Writers interview people and do research. A non-expert can become a very good
expert in a relatively short time, especially on technology. (Disclaimer: made
my living as a writer on, inter alia, technology.) I don't much like the
Cockburn boys -- remind me of a certain type one runs into in Irish boarding
schools. But they are good writers who do their research. From what I have
read, it appears that any semi-competent machine shop could be turning these
things out by the hundreds. It's going to get a whole lot worse.
.
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| User: "Neolibertarian" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 05:17:02 PM |
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In article <GI2dnU8tKfx99krYnZ2dnUVZ_hzinZ2d@bway.net>,
Gogarty <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote:
In article <cognac756-836B9B.11010517022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
cognac756@yahoo.com says...
In article <1171729293.863608.173240@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPramer@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1...
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Writers interview people and do research. A non-expert can become a very good
expert in a relatively short time, especially on technology. (Disclaimer:
made
my living as a writer on, inter alia, technology.) I don't much like the
Cockburn boys -- remind me of a certain type one runs into in Irish boarding
schools. But they are good writers who do their research. From what I have
read, it appears that any semi-competent machine shop could be turning these
things out by the hundreds. It's going to get a whole lot worse.
They're lying to you.
--
NeoLibertarian
"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people,
and therefore deprive them of their arms."
---Aristotle
.
|
|
|
| User: "Gogarty" |
|
| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 06:39:15 PM |
|
|
In article <cognac756-33A1BE.17085917022007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>,
cognac756@yahoo.com says...
In article <GI2dnU8tKfx99krYnZ2dnUVZ_hzinZ2d@bway.net>,
Gogarty <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote:
In article <cognac756-836B9B.11010517022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
cognac756@yahoo.com says...
In article <1171729293.863608.173240@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPramer@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1...
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international
conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Writers interview people and do research. A non-expert can become a very
good
expert in a relatively short time, especially on technology. (Disclaimer:
made
my living as a writer on, inter alia, technology.) I don't much like the
Cockburn boys -- remind me of a certain type one runs into in Irish
boarding
schools. But they are good writers who do their research. From what I have
read, it appears that any semi-competent machine shop could be turning
these
things out by the hundreds. It's going to get a whole lot worse.
They're lying to you.
Bush and crowd? Yes indeed. They are lying to all of us and have been doing so
since Day One.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Defendario" |
|
| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 09:25:43 PM |
|
|
Neolibertarian wrote:
In article <GI2dnU8tKfx99krYnZ2dnUVZ_hzinZ2d@bway.net>,
Gogarty <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote:
In article <cognac756-836B9B.11010517022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
cognac756@yahoo.com says...
In article <1171729293.863608.173240@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPramer@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1...
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Writers interview people and do research. A non-expert can become a very good
expert in a relatively short time, especially on technology. (Disclaimer:
made
my living as a writer on, inter alia, technology.) I don't much like the
Cockburn boys -- remind me of a certain type one runs into in Irish boarding
schools. But they are good writers who do their research. From what I have
read, it appears that any semi-competent machine shop could be turning these
things out by the hundreds. It's going to get a whole lot worse.
They're lying to you.
Nothing but a little child's gainsay, NeoCon.
Your lies are exposed and not working anymore.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Neolibertarian" |
|
| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 11:23:01 PM |
|
|
In article <53pv4vF1svgb4U5@mid.individual.net>,
Defendario <Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
Neolibertarian wrote:
In article <GI2dnU8tKfx99krYnZ2dnUVZ_hzinZ2d@bway.net>,
Gogarty <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote:
In article <cognac756-836B9B.11010517022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
cognac756@yahoo.com says...
In article <1171729293.863608.173240@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPramer@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1..
.
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Writers interview people and do research. A non-expert can become a very
good
expert in a relatively short time, especially on technology. (Disclaimer:
made
my living as a writer on, inter alia, technology.) I don't much like the
Cockburn boys -- remind me of a certain type one runs into in Irish
boarding
schools. But they are good writers who do their research. From what I have
read, it appears that any semi-competent machine shop could be turning
these
things out by the hundreds. It's going to get a whole lot worse.
They're lying to you.
Nothing but a little child's gainsay, NeoCon.
Your lies are exposed and not working anymore.
I don't believe you can tell the difference between lies and truth.
--
NeoLibertarian
"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people,
and therefore deprive them of their arms."
---Aristotle
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Baldin Lee Pramer" |
|
| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 03:39:49 PM |
|
|
On Feb 17, 10:01 am, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171729293.863608.173...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1...
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Not at all. I know explosives and machining, and I could certainly
make these myself with little trouble in any machine shop with an
adequate sized mill and lathe, and a metal cutting bandsaw. Hell, you
could probably shape the copper by hand with a ball peen hammer and a
sand pit. There must be hundreds of people in Iraq who have sufficient
ability to make these. They are *improvised* explosives. All you need
is to be shown *how* to build one. After that it is just following a
recipe.
Baldin Lee Pramer
.
|
|
|
| User: "Neolibertarian" |
|
| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 05:16:26 PM |
|
|
In article <1171748389.092712.92010@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPramer@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 17, 10:01 am, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171729293.863608.173...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1..
.
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international
conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Not at all. I know explosives and machining, and I could certainly
make these myself with little trouble in any machine shop with an
adequate sized mill and lathe, and a metal cutting bandsaw. Hell, you
could probably shape the copper by hand with a ball peen hammer and a
sand pit. There must be hundreds of people in Iraq who have sufficient
ability to make these. They are *improvised* explosives. All you need
is to be shown *how* to build one. After that it is just following a
recipe.
I wouldn't even need a mill and a lathe.
That's not even close to the point.
--
NeoLibertarian
"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people,
and therefore deprive them of their arms."
---Aristotle
.
|
|
|
| User: "Baldin Lee Pramer" |
|
| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 08:12:29 PM |
|
|
On Feb 17, 4:16 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171748389.092712.92...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 17, 10:01 am, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171729293.863608.173...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1..
.
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international
conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Not at all. I know explosives and machining, and I could certainly
make these myself with little trouble in any machine shop with an
adequate sized mill and lathe, and a metal cutting bandsaw. Hell, you
could probably shape the copper by hand with a ball peen hammer and a
sand pit. There must be hundreds of people in Iraq who have sufficient
ability to make these. They are *improvised* explosives. All you need
is to be shown *how* to build one. After that it is just following a
recipe.
I wouldn't even need a mill and a lathe.
That's not even close to the point.
It is *exactly* the point, because that is the point of the article
that began this thread.
I quote:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"PRESIDENT BUSH HAS now definitively stated that bombs known as
explosively formed penetrators - EFPs, which have proved especially
deadly for U.S. troops in Iraq - are made in Iran and exported to
Iraq.
But in November, U.S. troops raiding a Baghdad machine shop came
across a pile of copper disks, 5 inches in diameter, stamped out as
part of what was clearly an ongoing order.
This ominous discovery, unreported until now, makes it clear that
Iraqi insurgents have no need to rely on Iran as the source of EFPs.
The truth is that EFPs are simple to make for anyone who knows
how to
do it.
Far from a sophisticated assembly operation that might require
state
supervision, all that is required is one of those disks, some
high-powered explosive (which is easy to procure in Iraq) and a
container, such as a piece of pipe. "
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Furthermore, nowhere in the article does the author claim that Iran is
*not* involved in supplying locals with the bombs or materials. He
merely points out that contrary to administration claims, it is not
*necessary* to have a large well equipped entity such as Iran
producing these. They can be made simply and easily from easily
obtainable supplies.
Baldin Lee Pramer
.
|
|
|
| User: "Neolibertarian" |
|
| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 11:21:26 PM |
|
|
In article <1171764749.036383.136720@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPramer@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 17, 4:16 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171748389.092712.92...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 17, 10:01 am, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171729293.863608.173...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16fe
b1..
.
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international
conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story.
Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Not at all. I know explosives and machining, and I could certainly
make these myself with little trouble in any machine shop with an
adequate sized mill and lathe, and a metal cutting bandsaw. Hell, you
could probably shape the copper by hand with a ball peen hammer and a
sand pit. There must be hundreds of people in Iraq who have sufficient
ability to make these. They are *improvised* explosives. All you need
is to be shown *how* to build one. After that it is just following a
recipe.
I wouldn't even need a mill and a lathe.
That's not even close to the point.
It is *exactly* the point, because that is the point of the article
that began this thread.
Try to think this through.
You have an insurgency that has been going on hot and heavy since the
assassination of Bakr al-Hakim (Summer 2003).
You've seen all sorts of IED's being manufactured and detonated for four
fucking years.
All of a sudden, you see new IED's, ones far more efficient than
previously seen, and that are of the exact same type used by Hizbullah
and IRRG in other theaters (Lebanon, Israel, and Bosnia).
Yes, the same ones you make in your basement tool shop, but they are
ALSO identical to ones you know are of Iranian design and manufacture.
Sure, it COULD be a fucking coincidence. But even if it IS a fucking
coincidence that they are appearing now, rather than four fucking years
ago (when you or I could "have easily manufactured them with the tools
in our basements") it PROBABLY has something to do with Iran anyway.
--
NeoLibertarian
"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people,
and therefore deprive them of their arms."
---Aristotle
.
|
|
|
| User: "Baldin Lee Pramer" |
|
| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
18 Feb 2007 01:34:00 AM |
|
|
On Feb 17, 10:21 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171764749.036383.136...@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 17, 4:16 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171748389.092712.92...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 17, 10:01 am, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171729293.863608.173...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16fe
b1..
.
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international
conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story.
Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Not at all. I know explosives and machining, and I could certainly
make these myself with little trouble in any machine shop with an
adequate sized mill and lathe, and a metal cutting bandsaw. Hell, you
could probably shape the copper by hand with a ball peen hammer and a
sand pit. There must be hundreds of people in Iraq who have sufficient
ability to make these. They are *improvised* explosives. All you need
is to be shown *how* to build one. After that it is just following a
recipe.
I wouldn't even need a mill and a lathe.
That's not even close to the point.
It is *exactly* the point, because that is the point of the article
that began this thread.
Try to think this through.
You have an insurgency that has been going on hot and heavy since the
assassination of Bakr al-Hakim (Summer 2003).
You've seen all sorts of IED's being manufactured and detonated for four
fucking years.
All of a sudden, you see new IED's, ones far more efficient than
previously seen, and that are of the exact same type used by Hizbullah
and IRRG in other theaters (Lebanon, Israel, and Bosnia).
Yes, the same ones you make in your basement tool shop, but they are
ALSO identical to ones you know are of Iranian design and manufacture.
Sure, it COULD be a fucking coincidence. But even if it IS a fucking
coincidence that they are appearing now, rather than four fucking years
ago (when you or I could "have easily manufactured them with the tools
in our basements") it PROBABLY has something to do with Iran anyway.
Very likely the Iranians, or some Iranians, or someone, gave the
insurgents some lessons. That's not the point. I know you want to make
it a big deal, but the *actual* point is that when the Bush admin
claimed that these devices could not be manufactured by anyone but a
sophisticated government supported progran, they were lying.
Look, we all know that Iran would like nothing better than to have
control of Iraq. So would we and a dozen others. It's a war involving
ancient enmities, world power politics, conspiracy, murder, and every
rotten thing under the sun. The situation is fucked up all around, and
the *last* thing we need is more ***** lies from the guys on our
side. Remember the aluminum tubes that couldn't possibly be used for
anything but centrifuge tubes? For God's sake, we're supposed to be
the good guys! Can't we just tell the fucking truth?
Baldin Lee Pramer
.
|
|
|
|
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|
|
| User: "Gogarty" |
|
| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 04:59:13 PM |
|
|
In article <1171748389.092712.92010@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
BaldinPramer@msn.com says...
On Feb 17, 10:01 am, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171729293.863608.173...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1...
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international
conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Not at all. I know explosives and machining, and I could certainly
make these myself with little trouble in any machine shop with an
adequate sized mill and lathe, and a metal cutting bandsaw. Hell, you
could probably shape the copper by hand with a ball peen hammer and a
sand pit. There must be hundreds of people in Iraq who have sufficient
ability to make these. They are *improvised* explosives. All you need
is to be shown *how* to build one. After that it is just following a
recipe.
Baldin Lee Pramer
Copper is wildly and widely available and cheap in those countries as it is
the basic material for most cookware and serving ware.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Defendario" |
|
| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 09:27:26 PM |
|
|
Gogarty wrote:
In article <1171748389.092712.92010@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
BaldinPramer@msn.com says...
On Feb 17, 10:01 am, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171729293.863608.173...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1...
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international
conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Not at all. I know explosives and machining, and I could certainly
make these myself with little trouble in any machine shop with an
adequate sized mill and lathe, and a metal cutting bandsaw. Hell, you
could probably shape the copper by hand with a ball peen hammer and a
sand pit. There must be hundreds of people in Iraq who have sufficient
ability to make these. They are *improvised* explosives. All you need
is to be shown *how* to build one. After that it is just following a
recipe.
Baldin Lee Pramer
Copper is wildly and widely available and cheap in those countries as it is
the basic material for most cookware and serving ware.
Iraq was a near-industrialized nation under Saddam's rule. The notion
that Iraqis could not build these shaped charges is pure bovine excreta.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Gogarty" |
|
| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
17 Feb 2007 10:20:37 PM |
|
|
In article <53pv86F1svgb4U6@mid.individual.net>,
says...
Gogarty wrote:
In article <1171748389.092712.92010@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
BaldinPramer@msn.com says...
On Feb 17, 10:01 am, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171729293.863608.173...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1...
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international
conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Not at all. I know explosives and machining, and I could certainly
make these myself with little trouble in any machine shop with an
adequate sized mill and lathe, and a metal cutting bandsaw. Hell, you
could probably shape the copper by hand with a ball peen hammer and a
sand pit. There must be hundreds of people in Iraq who have sufficient
ability to make these. They are *improvised* explosives. All you need
is to be shown *how* to build one. After that it is just following a
recipe.
Baldin Lee Pramer
Copper is wildly and widely available and cheap in those countries as it is
the basic material for most cookware and serving ware.
Iraq was a near-industrialized nation under Saddam's rule. The notion
that Iraqis could not build these shaped charges is pure bovine excreta.
Ochsenscheisse works too. Indeed, one of the last thing the Iraqis did under
the arms inspection was publicly destroy medium range rockets they had
designed and built.
All these rightards seem to think that Iraq is nothing but a desert. Do they
not look at their own TVs and see with their own eyes that there was a large
and modern infrastructure there before we destroyed it?
.
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies. |
18 Feb 2007 12:18:21 AM |
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Gogarty wrote:
In article <53pv86F1svgb4U6@mid.individual.net>,
says...
Gogarty wrote:
In article <1171748389.092712.92010@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
BaldinPramer@msn.com says...
On Feb 17, 10:01 am, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <1171729293.863608.173...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
"Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:08 pm, Neolibertarian <cognac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636nt...@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <riv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb1...
27.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international
conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert.
He is right, though. He interviewed experts and wrote the story. Check
it out:
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator
He's trading on your ignorance.
Not at all. I know explosives and machining, and I could certainly
make these myself with little trouble in any machine shop with an
adequate sized mill and lathe, and a metal cutting bandsaw. Hell, you
could probably shape the copper by hand with a ball peen hammer and a
sand pit. There must be hundreds of people in Iraq who have sufficient
ability to make these. They are *improvised* explosives. All you need
is to be shown *how* to build one. After that it is just following a
recipe.
Baldin Lee Pramer
Copper is wildly and widely available and cheap in those countries as it is
the basic material for most cookware and serving ware.
Iraq was a near-industrialized nation under Saddam's rule. The notion
that Iraqis could not build these shaped charges is pure bovine excreta.
Ochsenscheisse works too. Indeed, one of the last thing the Iraqis did under
the arms inspection was publicly destroy medium range rockets they had
designed and built.
But that doesn't square with their prejudices. You know, 7th Century
Raghead Camel jockeys can't do stuff like that.
All these rightards seem to think that Iraq is nothing but a desert. Do they
not look at their own TVs and see with their own eyes that there was a large
and modern infrastructure there before we destroyed it?
See response above. But that's inconsistent even within their own frame
of reference. IOW if Iraq was a potential WMD nation, they must have
had significant technical prowess. But now they cannot machine simple
parts...
Ochsnscheisse
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