Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.

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Topic:	Politics > Politics-USA
User:	"Harry Hope"
Date:	16 Feb 2007 03:31:38 PM
Object:	Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.

From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb16,1,7126527.story?track=rss
In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn
PRESIDENT BUSH HAS now definitively stated that bombs known as
explosively formed penetrators — EFPs, which have proved especially
deadly for U.S. troops in Iraq — are made in Iran and exported to
Iraq.
But in November, U.S. troops raiding a Baghdad machine shop came
across a pile of copper disks, 5 inches in diameter, stamped out as
part of what was clearly an ongoing order.
This ominous discovery, unreported until now, makes it clear that
Iraqi insurgents have no need to rely on Iran as the source of EFPs.
The truth is that EFPs are simple to make for anyone who knows how to
do it.
Far from a sophisticated assembly operation that might require state
supervision, all that is required is one of those disks, some
high-powered explosive (which is easy to procure in Iraq) and a
container, such as a piece of pipe.
I asked a Pentagon analyst specializing in such devices how much each
one would cost to make.
"Twenty bucks," he answered after a brief calculation.
"Thirty at most."
EFPs work by using explosives to compress, melt and shoot a metal
projectile — formed from those disks, molded in a concave shape — in a
particular direction.
They are feared above all else by troops in Iraq because not only can
they punch a hole through the armor of an M-1 tank, they are small and
light, and thus far easier to carry and plant undetected than the
traditional Iraqi improvised explosive device, which is often made
from hefty artillery shells.
"You can do as much or more damage with a 5-pound EFP, which is aimed,
as with a 200-pound conventional IED, where most of the energy is
dissipated away from the target," the Pentagon analyst said.
The U.S. has (belatedly) responded to the IED threat by "up-armoring"
Humvees and other vulnerable vehicles, but EFPs can cleave through the
very thickest armor "like butter," as one Iraq veteran told me.
As of now, these weapons represent only a small fraction of the bombs
used against U.S. forces.
Last month, according to my Pentagon sources, out of 3,000 IEDs
directed at occupation troops, only 2.5% were EFPs.
But a further statistic explains why these particular weapons are so
feared by soldiers encased in their armored vehicles:
Despite the relatively tiny number deployed, since November they have
accounted for fully 15% of U.S. bomb casualties, and that percentage
is ticking up.
Anyone pondering the implications of this trend need only look to the
Israeli experience in Lebanon during the 1990s to see where it might
end.
"These bombs drove the Israelis out of Lebanon," a former Pentagon
weapons-effects expert told me unequivocally.
Hezbollah's expertise with EFPs is one reason why the administration,
despite minimal intelligence, has been quick to blame Hezbollah's
Iranian allies for the proliferation of the devices in Iraq.
But EFPs have a venerable history.
The IRA used them with lethal effect against British troops in
Northern Ireland, as did French resistance fighters against the
Germans in World War II.
It is only a question of time before someone shows the Taliban how to
make them, and then NATO forces in Afghanistan will begin the same
ordeal.
Despite their known lethality, these weapons weren't taken into
account by former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's program of
military "transformation."
Indeed, Rumsfeld bequeathed the Army the Future Combat Systems, a
$168-billion extravaganza of computers, sensors and robots deemed by
its proponents so deadly to a foe that armor on U.S. military vehicles
might be dispensed with altogether.
Once it became impossible to ignore the threat of all kinds of
"home-made" bombs, and EFPs in particular, Rumsfeld responded in
orthodox fashion by throwing money at the problem.
A "joint IED defeat" task force was created to address the issue, and
last year it was granted $3.32 billion, but with little result.
_________________________________________________
hARRY
.

User: "Neolibertarian"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	16 Feb 2007 09:08:21 PM

In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is against the
US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed together
since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.
You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can see the
fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this LA Times
article.
Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.
--
NeoLibertarian
"Nobody inherits their civilisation.
You always inherit the /ruins/ of your civilisation.
Beginning with yourself."
--Dennis M. Hammes
.

User: "Kevin Cunningham"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 08:55:43 AM

"Neolibertarian" <cognac756@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cognac756-D25266.21082116022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...

In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is against the
US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed together
since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.

You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can see the
fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this LA Times
article.

Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.

--
NeoLibertarian

Here we go again! The same lies, the same stuff with a new country thrown
in. Just change all the old press releases for Iraq to Iran. Now we have
the next WMD, a small, deadly type of bomb that has been generally known
since WWII. Two drunk red necks could make them but Bushco wants you to
believe that Iran has the technology. Geez, the technology was in a machine
shop in Baghdad, oh, Baghdad is not in Iran.
So lets have another war! We're doing so well in the other two.
.

User: "Neolibertarian"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 11:07:05 AM

In article <PHEBh.2479$x74.40@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"Kevin Cunningham" <smskjv@mindspring.com> wrote:

"Neolibertarian" <cognac756@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cognac756-D25266.21082116022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...

In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is against the
US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed together
since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.

You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can see the
fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this LA Times
article.

Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.

--
NeoLibertarian

Here we go again! The same lies, the same stuff with a new country thrown
in. Just change all the old press releases for Iraq to Iran. Now we have
the next WMD, a small, deadly type of bomb that has been generally known
since WWII. Two drunk red necks could make them but Bushco wants you to
believe that Iran has the technology. Geez, the technology was in a machine
shop in Baghdad, oh, Baghdad is not in Iran.

So lets have another war! We're doing so well in the other two.

Iran's involvement with the rejectionists in Iraq is not new--it was
firmly established about twenty years before the commencement of
Operation: Iraqi Freedom.
Who was behind the assassination attempt at Dujail?
Proof does not revolve around a relatively new kind of IED. And Cockburn
knows this far better than you.
--
NeoLibertarian
"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people,
and therefore deprive them of their arms."
---Aristotle
.

User: "fiend999"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 10:14:49 AM

In article
<cognac756-D25266.21082116022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
Neolibertarian <cognac756@yahoo.com> wrote:

In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is against the
US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed together
since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.

You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can see the
fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this LA Times
article.

Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.

If you are done shooting the messenger, would you like to point out the
"lies and misrepresentations" in the article?
--
~~~
.

User: "Neolibertarian"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 11:46:53 AM

In article <170220071114494345%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com>,
fiend999 <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote:

In article
<cognac756-D25266.21082116022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
Neolibertarian <cognac756@yahoo.com> wrote:

In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is against the
US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed together
since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.

You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can see the
fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this LA Times
article.

Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.

If you are done shooting the messenger, would you like to point out the
"lies and misrepresentations" in the article?

The misrepresentations are that Iran is not heavily involved in the
resistance movements inside Iraq.
I assure you they are (and when I say "they" I mean the Mullahs, Qods
forces, Hizbullah, and various militia groups the Mullahs have created
for this very purpose), and have been since 1982.
--
NeoLibertarian
"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people,
and therefore deprive them of their arms."
---Aristotle
.

User: "fiend999"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 07:39:22 PM

In article
<cognac756-47CD02.11465317022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
Neolibertarian <cognac756@yahoo.com> wrote:

In article <170220071114494345%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com>,
fiend999 <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote:

In article
<cognac756-D25266.21082116022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
Neolibertarian <cognac756@yahoo.com> wrote:

In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is against the
US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed together
since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.

You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can see the
fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this LA Times
article.

Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.

If you are done shooting the messenger, would you like to point out the
"lies and misrepresentations" in the article?

The misrepresentations are that Iran is not heavily involved in the
resistance movements inside Iraq.

Well, that is your problem - there are no such misrepresentations in
the article. The article says absolutely nothing regarding the level of
Iran's involvement in resistance movement. It does, however, point out
that there is no foreign assistance necessary to make EFPs.

I assure you they are (and when I say "they" I mean the Mullahs, Qods
forces, Hizbullah, and various militia groups the Mullahs have created
for this very purpose), and have been since 1982.

I don't doubt that at all, but what does that have to do with the fact
that Iraqis are perfectly capable of making their own bombs?
--
~~~
.

User: "Balanced View"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 02:51:57 PM

Neolibertarian wrote:

In article <170220071114494345%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com>,
fiend999 <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote:

In article
<cognac756-D25266.21082116022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
Neolibertarian <cognac756@yahoo.com> wrote:

In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is against the
US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed together
since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.

You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can see the
fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this LA Times
article.

Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.

If you are done shooting the messenger, would you like to point out the
"lies and misrepresentations" in the article?

The misrepresentations are that Iran is not heavily involved in the
resistance movements inside Iraq.

I assure you they are (and when I say "they" I mean the Mullahs, Qods
forces, Hizbullah, and various militia groups the Mullahs have created
for this very purpose), and have been since 1982.

None of them were in Iraq long before the war, The graves were not just
filled with Iraqi's who pissed on Saddam's rose gardens. George's
destabilization of the country has allowed them in.
.

User: "Defendario"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 09:24:01 PM

Balanced View wrote:

Neolibertarian wrote:

In article <170220071114494345%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com>,
fiend999 <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote:

In article
<cognac756-D25266.21082116022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
Neolibertarian <cognac756@yahoo.com> wrote:

In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is against
the US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed
together since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.

You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can see
the fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this LA
Times article.

Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.

If you are done shooting the messenger, would you like to point out the
"lies and misrepresentations" in the article?

The misrepresentations are that Iran is not heavily involved in the
resistance movements inside Iraq.

I assure you they are (and when I say "they" I mean the Mullahs, Qods
forces, Hizbullah, and various militia groups the Mullahs have created
for this very purpose), and have been since 1982.

None of them were in Iraq long before the war, The graves were not just
filled with Iraqi's who pissed on Saddam's rose gardens. George's
destabilization of the country has allowed them in.

Exactly. The US has supported anti-Baath militant groups throughout the
conflict, even though many had been created by and proxies for Iran in
the past. No one minded back in '06, to use Shi'ites to murder Sunnis
in the streets of al-Falloojah.
.

User: "Gogarty"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 08:40:04 AM

In article <cognac756-D25266.21082116022007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
cognac756@yahoo.com says...

In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

From The Los Angeles Times, 2/16/07:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-

cockburn16feb16,1,71265

27.story?track=rss

In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb

Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.

By Andrew Cockburn

Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is against the
US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed together
since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.

You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can see the
fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this LA Times
article.

Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.

Well, you may be right. But I would have more confidence in your position
if you had taken the writers text and rebut that it line by line.
.

User: "PagCal"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 05:00:34 AM

Neolibertarian wrote:

In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is against the
US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed together
since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.

You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can see the
fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this LA Times
article.

Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.

If the US army would provide me with a humvee, some copper disks, a
pipe, and some explosives (10 lbs plastique, a detonator cap, some fuse
cord), I would gladly go out and build an IED on their site and
throughly destroy the humvee with one blast.
Of course, they won't, because they know how silly it is to build an
explosive AP round and bury it in the ground.
It takes as little as four pounds of explosive to destroy a humvee. It's
public knowledge by now.
All this hype about you need some sort of sophisticated manufacturing
process is pure rubbish.
.

User: "PLMerite"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 05:42:30 AM

"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:igBBh.3405$963.923@newsfe03.lga...

Neolibertarian wrote:

In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is against the
US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed together
since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.

You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can see the
fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this LA Times
article.

Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.

If the US army would provide me with a humvee, some copper disks, a
pipe, and some explosives (10 lbs plastique, a detonator cap, some fuse
cord), I would gladly go out and build an IED on their site and
throughly destroy the humvee with one blast.

Of course, they won't, because they know how silly it is to build an
explosive AP round and bury it in the ground.

It takes as little as four pounds of explosive to destroy a humvee. It's
public knowledge by now.

All this hype about you need some sort of sophisticated manufacturing
process is pure rubbish.

I believe the complaint is that these new gizmos are a bit more
sophisticated than burying an artillery shell or a blob of plastique.
Regards, PLMerite
.

User: "PagCal"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 05:47:10 AM

PLMerite wrote:

"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:igBBh.3405$963.923@newsfe03.lga...

Neolibertarian wrote:

In article <kl8ct2lurdflj970h8tr2ijghv636ntp6r@4ax.com>,
Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Andy's no bomb expert, nor an intelligence expert. But he is against the
US winning the war in Iraq. Every noun and verb he's pushed together
since 2003 has been directed to that purpose.

You need to do research into Hizbullah and Iran before you can see the
fantastically transparent lies and misrepresentations in this LA Times
article.

Therefore all those who are opposed to US victory will undoubtedly
gobble this right up.

If the US army would provide me with a humvee, some copper disks, a
pipe, and some explosives (10 lbs plastique, a detonator cap, some fuse
cord), I would gladly go out and build an IED on their site and
throughly destroy the humvee with one blast.

Of course, they won't, because they know how silly it is to build an
explosive AP round and bury it in the ground.

It takes as little as four pounds of explosive to destroy a humvee. It's
public knowledge by now.

All this hype about you need some sort of sophisticated manufacturing
process is pure rubbish.

I believe the complaint is that these new gizmos are a bit more
sophisticated than burying an artillery shell or a blob of plastique.

In Iraq, anyone can make a bomb
Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.
By Andrew Cockburn, ANDREW COCKBURN is the author of "Rumsfeld, His
Rise, Fall and Catastrophic Legacy," published this month by Scribner.
February 16, 2007
PRESIDENT BUSH HAS now definitively stated that bombs known as
explosively formed penetrators â€” EFPs, which have proved especially
deadly for U.S. troops in Iraq â€” are made in Iran and exported to Iraq.
But in November, U.S. troops raiding a Baghdad machine shop came across
a pile of copper disks, 5 inches in diameter, stamped out as part of
what was clearly an ongoing order. This ominous discovery, unreported
until now, makes it clear that Iraqi insurgents have no need to rely on
Iran as the source of EFPs.
The truth is that EFPs are simple to make for anyone who knows how to do
it. Far from a sophisticated assembly operation that might require state
supervision, all that is required is one of those disks, some
high-powered explosive (which is easy to procure in Iraq) and a
container, such as a piece of pipe. I asked a Pentagon analyst
specializing in such devices how much each one would cost to make.
"Twenty bucks," he answered after a brief calculation. "Thirty at most."
EFPs work by using explosives to compress, melt and shoot a metal
projectile â€” formed from those disks, molded in a concave shape â€” in a
particular direction. They are feared above all else by troops in Iraq
because not only can they punch a hole through the armor of an M-1 tank,
they are small and light, and thus far easier to carry and plant
undetected than the traditional Iraqi improvised explosive device, which
is often made from hefty artillery shells.
"You can do as much or more damage with a 5-pound EFP, which is aimed,
as with a 200-pound conventional IED, where most of the energy is
dissipated away from the target," the Pentagon analyst said. The U.S.
has (belatedly) responded to the IED threat by "up-armoring" Humvees and
other vulnerable vehicles, but EFPs can cleave through the very thickest
armor "like butter," as one Iraq veteran told me.
As of now, these weapons represent only a small fraction of the bombs
used against U.S. forces. Last month, according to my Pentagon sources,
out of 3,000 IEDs directed at occupation troops, only 2.5% were EFPs.
But a further statistic explains why these particular weapons are so
feared by soldiers encased in their armored vehicles: Despite the
relatively tiny number deployed, since November they have accounted for
fully 15% of U.S. bomb casualties, and that percentage is ticking up.
Anyone pondering the implications of this trend need only look to the
Israeli experience in Lebanon during the 1990s to see where it might
end. "These bombs drove the Israelis out of Lebanon," a former Pentagon
weapons-effects expert told me unequivocally.
Hezbollah's expertise with EFPs is one reason why the administration,
despite minimal intelligence, has been quick to blame Hezbollah's
Iranian allies for the proliferation of the devices in Iraq. But EFPs
have a venerable history. The IRA used them with lethal effect against
British troops in Northern Ireland, as did French resistance fighters
against the Germans in World War II. It is only a question of time
before someone shows the Taliban how to make them, and then NATO forces
in Afghanistan will begin the same ordeal.
Despite their known lethality, these weapons weren't taken into account
by former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's program of military
"transformation." Indeed, Rumsfeld bequeathed the Army the Future Combat
Systems, a $168-billion extravaganza of computers, sensors and robots
deemed by its proponents so deadly to a foe that armor on U.S. military
vehicles might be dispensed with altogether.
Once it became impossible to ignore the threat of all kinds of
"home-made" bombs, and EFPs in particular, Rumsfeld responded in
orthodox fashion by throwing money at the problem.
A "joint IED defeat" task force was created to address the issue, and
last year it was granted $3.32 billion, but with little result. True,
each Humvee patrolling Iraqi roads now carries two specially designed
jammers, costing $100,000 apiece, that jam radio signals detonating
roadside bombs. The other side has simply switched to wire detonators or
infrared systems. One hundred towers spouting remote cameras, at $12
million each, watch main roads for bomb planters, with no improvement in
attack and casualty statistics.
Rumsfeld's mentor, defense intellectual Andrew Marshall, marketed the
phrase "revolution in military affairs" as a justification for high-tech
programs such as Future Combat Systems. But those copper disks represent
the real revolution in military affairs, and it is not in our favor.

Regards, PLMerite

User: "PLMerite"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 10:03:44 AM

"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:XXBBh.209$vg7.69@newsfe05.lga...
http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1692347&page=1
The Left wants to pretend Iran isn't involved but that doesn't make it the
truth.
Regards, PLMerite
--
"When contemplating...liberals, you really regret once again that John
Walker is not getting the death penalty. We need to execute people like John
Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize
that they can be killed too. Otherwise they will turn out to be outright
traitors." Ann Coulter
.

User: "Gogarty"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 02:50:14 PM

In article <AHFBh.109$4J4.55@trnddc01>,

says...

I don't think that's true at all. Iran has a disaster playing out on its
doorstep and has to be deeply concerned that it could spill over. On the other
hand, that's their part of the world, not the US's, and they naturally have a
deep interest in doing what they can to shape events to thier benefit. That
may be inconvenient for the US, which has no business being there in the
first place, but that's the way it is. Saber rattling will have no effect.
They won't back down and nothing will make them do so. That's the reality.
.

User: "PLMerite"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 06:55:22 PM

"Gogarty" <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote in message
news:GI2dnUwtKfwf90rYnZ2dnUVZ_hzinZ2d@bway.net...

In article <AHFBh.109$4J4.55@trnddc01>,

says...

I don't think that's true at all. Iran has a disaster playing out on its
doorstep and has to be deeply concerned that it could spill over. On the
other
hand, that's their part of the world, not the US's, and they naturally
have a
deep interest in doing what they can to shape events to thier benefit.
That
may be inconvenient for the US, which has no business being there in the
first place, but that's the way it is. Saber rattling will have no effect.
They won't back down and nothing will make them do so. That's the reality.

The western (civilized) world runs on oil. The Middle East has oil. That
makes it our business.
Regards, PLMerite
.

User: "Gogarty"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	17 Feb 2007 10:14:46 PM

In article <_tNBh.459$CG5.148@trnddc03>,

says...

"Gogarty" <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote in message
news:GI2dnUwtKfwf90rYnZ2dnUVZ_hzinZ2d@bway.net...

In article <AHFBh.109$4J4.55@trnddc01>,

says...

I don't think that's true at all. Iran has a disaster playing out on its
doorstep and has to be deeply concerned that it could spill over. On the
other
hand, that's their part of the world, not the US's, and they naturally
have a
deep interest in doing what they can to shape events to thier benefit.
That
may be inconvenient for the US, which has no business being there in the
first place, but that's the way it is. Saber rattling will have no effect.
They won't back down and nothing will make them do so. That's the reality.

The western (civilized) world runs on oil. The Middle East has oil. That
makes it our business.

Really? The Middle East needs iron. Should they invade us to ensure their
iron supply? Anyway, we were nopt having a problem with oil supply until Bush
attacked Iraq.
.

User: "PLMerite"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	18 Feb 2007 07:06:44 AM

"Gogarty" <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote in message
news:0rydnZCTpMowT0rYnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@bway.net...

In article <_tNBh.459$CG5.148@trnddc03>,

says...

"Gogarty" <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote in message
news:GI2dnUwtKfwf90rYnZ2dnUVZ_hzinZ2d@bway.net...

In article <AHFBh.109$4J4.55@trnddc01>,

says...

I don't think that's true at all. Iran has a disaster playing out on its
doorstep and has to be deeply concerned that it could spill over. On the
other
hand, that's their part of the world, not the US's, and they naturally
have a
deep interest in doing what they can to shape events to thier benefit.
That
may be inconvenient for the US, which has no business being there in the
first place, but that's the way it is. Saber rattling will have no
effect.
They won't back down and nothing will make them do so. That's the
reality.

The western (civilized) world runs on oil. The Middle East has oil. That
makes it our business.

Really? The Middle East needs iron. Should they invade us to ensure their
iron supply?

How very pithy. If it were water or food, would it be okay then?
Oil is the food of industry and tranportation and thus the enconomy. I can
only imagine how much you'd squeal if gasoline went up to $10/gal - if you
had a car, that is.

Anyway, we were nopt having a problem with oil supply until Bush
attacked Iraq.

Obviously you didn't live through the oil embargo of 1973 or the oil crisis
of 1979.
Regards, PLMerite
.

User: "Gogarty"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	18 Feb 2007 09:55:29 AM

In article <EbYBh.1662$EU.293@trnddc07>,

says...

"Gogarty" <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote in message
news:0rydnZCTpMowT0rYnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@bway.net...

In article <_tNBh.459$CG5.148@trnddc03>,

says...

"Gogarty" <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote in message
news:GI2dnUwtKfwf90rYnZ2dnUVZ_hzinZ2d@bway.net...

In article <AHFBh.109$4J4.55@trnddc01>,

says...

I don't think that's true at all. Iran has a disaster playing out on its
doorstep and has to be deeply concerned that it could spill over. On the
other
hand, that's their part of the world, not the US's, and they naturally
have a
deep interest in doing what they can to shape events to thier benefit.
That
may be inconvenient for the US, which has no business being there in the
first place, but that's the way it is. Saber rattling will have no
effect.
They won't back down and nothing will make them do so. That's the
reality.

The western (civilized) world runs on oil. The Middle East has oil. That
makes it our business.

Really? The Middle East needs iron. Should they invade us to ensure their
iron supply?

How very pithy. If it were water or food, would it be okay then?

Many a war has been fought over water and arable land. Your point?

Oil is the food of industry and tranportation and thus the enconomy. I can
only imagine how much you'd squeal if gasoline went up to $10/gal - if you
had a car, that is.

Anyway, we were nopt having a problem with oil supply until Bush
attacked Iraq.

Obviously you didn't live through the oil embargo of 1973 or the oil crisis
of 1979.

Why do you make assumptions based on nothing at all? In February 1974 I was
trying to drive from Philadelphia to New Orleans with my family. I very
nearly abandoned them along the way so I could catch a train or plane and
make my business appointments. But we found a line that actually had gas at
the head of it and made it by car. An odd thing then was that the majors all
ran out of gas and the only place you could find any, at least on that route,
was from independent gas stations. As for my knowledge of petroleum, well, I
wrote a book. Big fat book. Published in 1984.
.

User: "PLMerite"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	18 Feb 2007 02:23:32 PM

"Gogarty" <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote in message
news:S9KdnW4unep360XYnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@bway.net...

In article <EbYBh.1662$EU.293@trnddc07>,

says...

Many a war has been fought over water and arable land. Your point?

Oil is just as valuable. No oil and the economy of every western nation
tanks.

Oil is the food of industry and tranportation and thus the enconomy. I
can
only imagine how much you'd squeal if gasoline went up to $10/gal - if you
had a car, that is.

Anyway, we were nopt having a problem with oil supply until Bush
attacked Iraq.

Obviously you didn't live through the oil embargo of 1973 or the oil
crisis
of 1979.

Why do you make assumptions based on nothing at all? In February 1974 I
was
trying to drive from Philadelphia to New Orleans with my family. I very
nearly abandoned them along the way so I could catch a train or plane and
make my business appointments. But we found a line that actually had gas
at
the head of it and made it by car. An odd thing then was that the majors
all
ran out of gas and the only place you could find any, at least on that
route,
was from independent gas stations. As for my knowledge of petroleum, well,
I
wrote a book. Big fat book. Published in 1984.

Does this book have a title? I bet I could still find it on Amazon.
Imagine if the oil embargo had lasted a little longer, fueled as it were not
by greedy Arabs, but by Islamists believing it was the "will of Allah" that
they use oil as a weapon against us infidels?
If there was no gas to move the trucks hauling food to the cities (Democrat
strongholds that they are), how quickly do you think Hillary, Kerry,
Edwards, Sharpton, etc., would be squealing "nuke their ***** and take the
gas!" ?
Regards, PLMerite
.

User: "fiend999"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	18 Feb 2007 09:17:18 AM

In article <EbYBh.1662$EU.293@trnddc07>, PLMerite
<

> wrote:

"Gogarty" <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote in message
news:0rydnZCTpMowT0rYnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@bway.net...

In article <_tNBh.459$CG5.148@trnddc03>,

says...

"Gogarty" <Gogarty@Clongowes.edu> wrote in message
news:GI2dnUwtKfwf90rYnZ2dnUVZ_hzinZ2d@bway.net...

In article <AHFBh.109$4J4.55@trnddc01>,

says...

I don't think that's true at all. Iran has a disaster playing out on its
doorstep and has to be deeply concerned that it could spill over. On the
other
hand, that's their part of the world, not the US's, and they naturally
have a
deep interest in doing what they can to shape events to thier benefit.
That
may be inconvenient for the US, which has no business being there in the
first place, but that's the way it is. Saber rattling will have no
effect.
They won't back down and nothing will make them do so. That's the
reality.

The western (civilized) world runs on oil. The Middle East has oil. That
makes it our business.

Really? The Middle East needs iron. Should they invade us to ensure their
iron supply?

How very pithy. If it were water or food, would it be okay then?

Oil is the food of industry and tranportation and thus the enconomy. I can
only imagine how much you'd squeal if gasoline went up to $10/gal - if you
had a car, that is.

Anyway, we were nopt having a problem with oil supply until Bush
attacked Iraq.

Obviously you didn't live through the oil embargo of 1973 or the oil crisis
of 1979.

Are you willing to die for cheap oil? No? Then why in the hell do you
expect other people to go die in your place?
--
~~~
.

User: "PLMerite"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	18 Feb 2007 02:17:04 PM

"fiend999" <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:180220071017184540%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com...

Are you willing to die for cheap oil? No? Then why in the hell do you
expect other people to go die in your place?

You say that until the oil stops flowing. Then prices go up, important
commodities become unavailable, people lose their jobs, the economy tanks,
etc.
Unless you were one of the very few people self-sufficient people in the
country, it would matter a lot in a hurry. If the Great Depression could
have been fixed in 1934 by invading another country, I'd be willing to bet
that's what would have happened.
Regards, PLMerite
--
"If you rub it in both at home and abroad that you are ready for instant
war... and intend to be first in and hit your enemy in the belly and kick
him when he is down and boil your prisoners in oil (if you take any)... and
torture his women and children, then people will keep clear of you."
Vice Admiral Sir John Fisher, Royal Navy, 1898.
.

User: "fiend999"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	18 Feb 2007 02:49:05 PM

In article <4v2Ch.2472$Cr1.1854@trnddc08>, PLMerite
<stockade@smokebombhill.com> wrote:

"fiend999" <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:180220071017184540%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com...

Are you willing to die for cheap oil? No? Then why in the hell do you
expect other people to go die in your place?

So are you willing to go fight and maybe die for oil or not?
--
~~~
.

User: "PLMerite"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	18 Feb 2007 03:30:14 PM

"fiend999" <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:180220071549059036%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com...

So are you willing to go fight and maybe die for oil or not?

How were your tours in Bosnia and Kosovo?
Somalia?
Haiti?
Regards, PLMerite
--
"Whether they admit it or not, the Democrats need lawbreakers such as
illegal aliens -- who are being illegally registered as Democrats -- and
killers, rapists and robbers in order to increase their base of far-left
voters." Mike Baker, political strategist and pollster.

--
~~~

User: "Gogarty"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	18 Feb 2007 09:47:03 PM

In article <Gz3Ch.2477$Cr1.623@trnddc08>,

says...

"fiend999" <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:180220071549059036%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com...

So are you willing to go fight and maybe die for oil or not?

How were your tours in Bosnia and Kosovo?

Somalia?

Haiti?

Mine in Kosovo was quite good. Accomplished a lot.
.

User: "fiend999"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	19 Feb 2007 06:22:42 PM

In article <Gz3Ch.2477$Cr1.623@trnddc08>, PLMerite
<stockade@smokebombhill.com> wrote:

"fiend999" <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:180220071549059036%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com...

So are you willing to go fight and maybe die for oil or not?

How were your tours in Bosnia and Kosovo?

Somalia?

Haiti?

I guess that answers the question. You are what is known as a chicken
hawk. You post from the safety of a computer and spout off about how
important the invasion of Iraq is because you think you need the oil,
yet you are unwilling to do more than hope that enough others are
willing to go die for your comfort.
--
~~~
.

User: "PLMerite"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	22 Feb 2007 11:23:00 PM

"fiend999" <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:190220071922421762%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com...

In article <Gz3Ch.2477$Cr1.623@trnddc08>, PLMerite
<stockade@smokebombhill.com> wrote:

"fiend999" <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:180220071549059036%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com...

So are you willing to go fight and maybe die for oil or not?

How were your tours in Bosnia and Kosovo?

Somalia?

Haiti?

And you, of course, don't use any imported oil.
So, tell me about your time in the military. You must not think anything is
worth fighting for.
Regards, PLMerite

--
~~~

User: "fiend999"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	23 Feb 2007 06:52:00 PM

In article <USuDh.1923$4J4.868@trnddc01>, PLMerite
<stockade@smokebombhill.com> wrote:

"fiend999" <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:190220071922421762%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com...

In article <Gz3Ch.2477$Cr1.623@trnddc08>, PLMerite
<stockade@smokebombhill.com> wrote:

"fiend999" <dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:180220071549059036%dontspamfiend999@newsguy.com...

So are you willing to go fight and maybe die for oil or not?

How were your tours in Bosnia and Kosovo?

Somalia?

Haiti?

And you, of course, don't use any imported oil.

Sure I do. I don't think it is worth risking my life or anyone else's,
though. That is why I try to conserve, use alternative fuel sources,
and want to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Oh, and maintaining
good relationships with other oil producing countries is a good idea
too. Invading them kind of messes that up.

So, tell me about your time in the military.

Irrelevant.

You must not think anything is
worth fighting for.

Are you willing to go fight and die for your oil?
If not, why do you expect someone else to do it for you?
You keep dodging those questions, chickenhawk.
--
~~~
.

User: "Docky Wocky"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	23 Feb 2007 11:27:04 PM

Hey, fiend99, I saw you on your new tricycle the other day. Anazing how fast
you were going. And in and out between those pedestrians - just as speedy as
they get.
I didn't know you were so against importing foreign oil you switched to the
old trike instead of your Hummer.
And those new Nike tennies. Sharp!
Good thing those are all made out of foreign oil by foreigners - so that
don't count.
.

User: "Jack A. Lopes"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	24 Feb 2007 08:18:09 AM

In article <I0QDh.170$Tg7.117@trnddc03>, Docky Wocky <mrchuck@lst.net>
wrote:

Hey, fiend99, I saw you on your new tricycle the other day. Anazing how fast
you were going. And in and out between those pedestrians - just as speedy as
they get.

I didn't know you were so against importing foreign oil you switched to the
old trike instead of your Hummer.

And those new Nike tennies. Sharp!

Good thing those are all made out of foreign oil by foreigners - so that
don't count.

So what have you done to stop funding terrorism this week? Hmmm?
--
1+1+1+1...
.

User: "Gogarty"
Title: Re: Improvised explosive devices don't require international conspiracies.	18 Feb 2007 09:58:27 AM

P.S. The next oil crunch should Bush's antics shut off the Persian Gulf will
make 1974 look like a mere belt tightening. You don't ensure your oil
supplies by attempting to steal them. It works for awhile but then the people
who actually own the oil get *****.
.

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International court may decide not to hear fence case

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