Politics > Politics-USA > Incensed Americans hammer pair of pro-illegal heads-up-their-asses church representatives
| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"George Washington Admirer" |
| Date: |
07 Jul 2006 11:36:44 PM |
| Object: |
Incensed Americans hammer pair of pro-illegal heads-up-their-asses church representatives |
"... We will abide by the law, but are not obligated to abide by
immoral laws. Laws which do great harm and damage to God's children.
Laws of inequality, oppression, economic injustice."
Unfortunately, the above statement is complete HYPOCRISY AND *****
on the part of those who uttered it! Here's why:
The same pair of pro-illegal alien invasion idiots who said the above
are very active members of churches which view abortion as MURDER, a
crime FAR more serious than even sneaking into the USA illegally. Yet
do they openly admit to BREAKING THE LAW to oppose abortions? NO!
Thus, the same people (as well as the outlaw Cardinal Roger Mahoney
of Los Angeles, who publically vows that his underlings WON'T obey U.S.
immigration law) who openly say they'll break the law in regard to
immigration WON'T, in contrast, do so to save the life of an unborn
child!
The hypocrisy of the pro-illegal alien crowd is stunning.
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http://news.statesmanjournal.com/chat/archive/chat_48.cfm
Church response to immigration debate
Hosted by Sarah Harkness and Francisco López
Thursday, July 6, 2006,
On June 30, faith leaders representing 20 churches in Marion County met
to issue a signed statement outlining actions that the religious
community will undertake to address what they say is a growing climate
of tension in the community surrounding the issue of immigration.
Here's a chance to chat with two of the attendees.
Francisco López is a Salvadoran-American and member of Queen of
Catholic Church in South Salem. López came to the United States as a
refugee from the war in El Salvador in 1985. He has a Bachelors Degree
in electrical engineering and 21 years of experience working on
leadership development and implementing social service programs in the
United States and Latin America.
Sarah Harkness is a missionary with the United Methodist Church,
working with the Hispanic/Latino Ministry Training Institute.
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: Hello. We, Sarah Harkness, United
Methodist Missionary with Hispanic/Latino Ministry and Francisco Lopez,
member of Queen of Peace Catholic Church, welcome you to this chat this
afternoon! We look forward to a mutual dialogue in which we might
express varying points of view and we look foward to deepening
discussion around this important topic.
Please feel free to send us some questions?
SALEM, OREGON: I am an immigrant, a professional, who is now a citizen.
I was required to have a job, or adequate wealth, and be able to speak
English, and have thorough health checks before being allowed in, then
issued a Social Sec Card and a Green Card. There are millions of
immigrants waiting "in line" in countries around the world, who have
applied at the embassy, and have waited years. What is your group's
position on the illegals that just climb the fence and avoid the
immigration process, and pose a health and drug threat to the US. Will
you support the rounding up and deportation of illegals ? Do you
support Immigrants or Illegals ?
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: In response to your last question
we are here to be with God's children, regardless of their immigration
status.
We understand that the current immigration process is unjust, and does
not offer equal opportunities to those seeking to enter the country and
must be reformed. We believe that come here to work and contribute to
our economy and to seek refuge should be welcomed by a fair and just
immigration process.
What a blessing that you enjoy the benefits of our democracy and our
political system. We would like your same story to be available for
others, which with our current policies is not so.
Salem, Oregon: Why does your group seemingly advocate for the
acceptance of illegal aliens? Why would we want people surrounding us
in our society who show their disrespect for our laws by breaking them
to be here? Should we not support legal immigration but be firmly
opposed to those who are here illegally? Can't we have too many people
in America to provide for them all? A lifeboat which can hold 12 will
go under if it tries to hold 18. Is there not a limit to the number of
people our land can support? Is there such an abundance of money that
we can help all the people born here legally? If not why add the burden
of illegal aliens? My years as a member of 1st UMC have taught me it is
wrong to enter a country by illegal means. So how do you justify
illegal aliens openly breaking this law? What of rendering to Caesar
that which is Caesars
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: To answer your last comment, we
agree with Jesus' words of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's and
to God what is God's. In our case we decide to be with God's children,
regardless of their immigration status.
Actually the current wave of immigration is proportionately smaller
than it was in the late 1800's and early 1900's when people were
streaming (legally and illegally) into the United States ( According to
INS, now a part of Homeland Security Department). In that case the
"lifeboat" of American society was not only able to support these lives
without going under, but actually benefitted from the gifts, the
experience and the labor force offered by this wave of immigration. As
mentioned in another answer, the economic growth produced by
undocumented immigrants far outweighs the "burden" on society.
Archbishop Oscar Romero, Martin Luther King Jr. and numerous other
religious leaders, including some in the United Methodist church have
said that we will abide by the law, but are not obligated to abide by
immoral laws. Laws which do great harm and damage to God's children.
Laws of inequality, oppression, economic injustice. Remember that
segregation was the law of the land for several years, women were not
allowed to vote until the 1920s, individuals with developmental
disabilities were not able to fully participate in society until very
recently and it wasn't until 2000 that they had the option to
participate in society. Laws of the land are not always just.
SALEM, OREGON: THE PROBLEM REMAINS THAT UNDER SCRIPTURE WE ARE TO
SUBMIT TO THE LAWS OF THE LAND, SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? "OUR OWN
DISOBEIDENCE" AND SUBMITTING TO A HIGHER LAW. MAN HAS 'NEVER' WANTED TO
OBEY. AND CONDONING THIS ACTION TO ALLOW ILLEGALS IN THIS COUNTRY
PROVES THAT WE DON'T SUBMIT TO A HIGHER AUTHORITY
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: We understand Paul's assessment in
his letter to the Romans. Those were times when Paul wanted the Romans
to become Christians and to follow more Christian values. He also told
them about new life in Christ and about Christian conduct. Before Paul
validated their government institution, he wanted them to validate the
way of life that Jesus taught, a life that pointed to where the higher
authority comes from.
We also need to remember Jesus' words. Words of justice, mercy,
compassion, hospitality, forgiveness and inclusion. Hospitality is a
radical Christian concept and we are seeking to submit to the higher
authority that calls us to this radical act.
Lake Isabella CA (temp): Whyis the church's so interested in helping
these people break the law which they are just by coming over the
border. Why don't the churches get together and work on the problems
for the citizens like finding homes for the homeless or a way to get
jobs for the unemployed or food for the hungry. They need to go home
and come here legally and then there would be no problem. Help the
homeless, hungry and unemployed.
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: We are not advocating for people to
cross the border without documents.
Most of the churches that have signed the statement are fully involved
in affordable housing, food programs, social services, etc. Before the
federal government had social services programs, the churches were
taking care of the poor. The social security system was modeled after
church savings programs.
The war on poverty was initially declared by churches and not by the
government.
We are so blessed to have such active churches in the Salem/Keizer
community, churches that are advocating for everyone on the margins —
the poor, the homeless, the hungry, the unemployed and the undocumented
immigrant.
Salem, Or: Americans are not against immigration, they are against
illegals in this country, is it possible to actually use the correct
terms when speaking on this subject?
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: We think that the proper term is
undocumented immigrants since, from a faith perspective, no human being
is illegal. We are also concerned that in a national backlash against
undocumented immigrants that many have difficulty distinguishing
between documented and undocumented persons and so there is increased
usage of negative generalizations about all immigrants.
Aumsville, Oregon 97325: My ancestors came from Europe at the turn of
the 20th century with a sponsor and worked to become citizens. It is
wrong for immigrants to cross our borders illegally and drain our Human
Resourses. If they want citizenship, then let them do it legally, not
by having babies where welfare picks up the tab just to stay in the
country. Amnesty! that is a crock! Tell that to all the immigrants that
came here legally and worked hard for the privilege of becoming a US
Citizen! What happened to the LAWS? Why are they not enforced? If any
of us went to Mexico illegally what do you think would happen? PRISON!
CROPS: The government passed child labor laws, that kept children under
the age of 12 from working in the fields. My wife and I both worked
picking crops from the time we were 9 or 10 until we were old enough to
work in the cannery. We didn't need hispanics to take over. The
government has created havoc by their stupidity with the laws and by
not enforcing them! The crime rate has increased, Human Resourses funds
are drained, and taxpayers like myself are paying for it all! When does
it stop! It is not right! If they can't come in legally then send them
back to Mexico. If I were to enter in another country anywhere, without
the proper papers I would wind up in jail! It should be that way here.
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: Do you have a question?
Salem, Oregon: How many spaces do Queen of Peace and/or other Catholic
and religeous based schools offer for the children of illegal aliens
who are not able to pay for a private school education? Is there a
scholarship program?
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: Queen of Peace does have a
scholarship program and does not ask about immigration status because
that is not the role of the church, to police human beings. That is the
role of our government authorities.
salem, oregon: Do any of your churches receive "faith based" tax dollar
subsidies?
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: We are unable to answer this
question for each of the churches involved, however we do know Queen of
Peace does not receive this money and don't believe that many of the
churches at the local level who have signed the statement receive this
money.
Keizer, OR: Are you part of the OPEN BORDER group that believes that if
America has anything then anybody from South of the border is entitled
to come here illegally and take whatever they want?
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: This is one of the biggest
contradictions of economic globalization. In Europe there is free
movement across borders because of economic purposes. Here in the U.S.
we are not true to that statement. We want to benefit economically but
we do not want provide a sufficient policy for people to come here
legally.
We don't advocate for open borders but we must recognize the
contradictions inherent in our economic policy combined with secure
borders.
Salem, Oregon: Aside from my thoughts that the church (whatever
denomination) should succor the poor and suffering who are in their
community . . . how active is the church community on behalf of other
persons who have knowingly and willingly committed illegal acts; i.e.,
bank robbers, child molesters, etc., and how active will the church
community continue to be when their non-tax status is no more because
they have changed their role from "do gooders" to political change
activists?
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: Jesus' mission was to be present
with everybody. One of his main messages was that of forgiveness and
reconciliation. When asked how many times one should forgive — he
didn't say once or twice, but seventy times seven. Thank God that the
church has continued to be very active among people in all walks of
life — including those who have broken laws. We want to follow Christ's
example in accompanying ALL God's children.
Historically, implementation of democracy has not been isolated from
direction of a Higher Power. We hope that whatever the status of the
church that Christ's followers will continue to follow God's call to
accompany God's children.
Salem, OR: Why isn't the government of Mexico doing more for its own
citizens in terms of economic and job development, rooting out
political corruption in government and law enforcement and
redistibuting some of the country's wealth? No one blames people for
wanting a better life, but why can't they get it in Mexico? Does the
country have no responsiblity toward its own citizens who are risking
possible death and imprisonment to illegally enter the US?
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: This would be ideal for Mexico to
take better care of their people. Unfortunately the U.S. keeps "bailing
out" some corrupt governments in Mexico. I think we should condition
economic and military aid to advocate for better care of the citizens.
salem, or: To Mr. Lopez,
How do you feel about the Catholic church's anti-birth control
policies? Do you feel it is appropriate to encourage people in
impovershed countries to have children that they have no means to care
for? Shouldn't the Catholic church take responsibility to feed and
clothe these people rather than bringing them here illegally and
dumping them on the backs of the American tax payers?
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: These are the kind of questions
that distract us from the bigger issues. Few people question our
governmental policies regarding corporate welfare, military and
economic assistance to corrupt governments in Latin America, free trade
agreements that are not benefiting Latin Americans or North Americans
only larger corporations. We would like to address those issues rather
than issues that take us out of the real debate.
Eugene, OR: Why do you want Illegals to be able to enter this country?
This Country and this state cannot afford to keep giving handouts.
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: We are not advocating for
undocumented immmigrants to come into this country. We are looking for
the root causes that creates their migration here.
The first President Bush, President Clinton and the current President
Bush told us that, with the creation of free-trade agreements, these
agreements would deter undocumented migration to the United States.
This has not been the case. People keep coming because we provide
unconditional economic and military assistance to corrupt governments
in Latin America. With the free-trade agreements, larger corporations
decided to move their plants to Latin America so that the clothing that
you wear from Wal-Mart, Gap and Target and cars that are produced like
Ford Motor Co. and GM, are manufactured in Latin America and so that we
must remain conscious of this fact. So the question we are asking is
who is responsible — perhaps not the individual undocumented worker.
Many of these people make $2 a day for 8 hours of work with no benefits.
And we do agree that we cannot keep giving handouts to large U.S.
corporations and corrupt Latin American governments because they are
part of the cause for the migration to the United States.
Salem, Oregon: There will be a problem until the real problem is
identified. It is not with immigration. It is with illegal immigration
of all nationalities. First we must stop illegal immigration for many
reasons including crime, health concerns, education and overburdening
our social services programs. So lets call it what it is "a problem
with illegal immigration". Not an immigration problem. So now that we
have idetified the problem we can work together to solve it. First we
must control our boarders, idetnify the illegal population in the US,
create a guest worker program for those here illegally so that they can
receive a living wage for there work and support them selves and their
families. We also must preserve the American way of life since that is
why so many people want to become American citizens. That means we
speak english in this country, obay all laws including those that deal
with immigration, and not try to change this country or its traditions.
All immigrants legal and illegal must understand that Americans hold
their American traditions in high esteem and will resist any attempt to
change them. God Bless you and your work.
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: Crime, health concerns, education
and a lack of social services are real concerns, as are expensive wars
that we are conducting worldwide, gas prices, cost of prescription
drugs, the cost of health insurance and affordable housing. These
problems face our country and are large and systemic issues and often
have little to do with the presence with the undocumented worker in
this country. Unfortunately, we see undocumented immigrants being used
as scapegoats in order to hide from the root causes of our economic
problems.
Salem, Oregon: Do you feel that American citizens are having a problem
with immigration or with illegal immigration? Do you feel that there
should be heath concerns with illegal immigrants? Do you feel that
American tax payers should foot the bill for social service for illegal
immigrants? Thank You.
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: Thank you for your distinction. We
do feel that there are many levels of the discussion and that
immigration and undocumented immigration might be different issues.
However, unfortunately, in the backlash that we have seen nationally,
many people have difficulty distinguishing between immigrants and
undocumented immigrants. And indeed, how do you know, unless you ask?
So unfortunately, we are seeing increased racial tension, backlash
against immigrants with darker skin and a lumping together of all Latin
American immigrants as “illegals from Mexico.” There also is not much
discussion about undocumented immigrants from Canada or European
countries.
Our faith calls us to care for all children of God. Fortunately the
Samaritan didn’t ask whether the person was documented before he tended
to the victim’s wounds. There are certain acts of care and hospitality
that we feel each person, as God’s creation, is entitled to —
especially when it pertains to immediate survival needs. Continued
discussion needs to happen at governmental levels about how that is to
be covered economically, but please refer to an earlier question about
immigrants as taxpayers as well.
Thank you.
turner, oregon: I'm glad to see the church stepping in to help people
but am starting to feel a negative attitude towards our politicians
through this whole thing. I write letters to local congresspeople and
senators all the time asking them to please help support immigration
reform by way of granting legal status to all of the hardworking
immigrants already here as long as they don't have criminal records etc
and to prevent separating families. I have received two letters from
the same senators office that have conflicting views on the matter.
It's like the first one supports my views and then 3 months later I got
a very different letter with views strongly opposing those of the prior
letter; in fact the second letter states support of enforcement only
measures and refutes supporting anything equal to an amnesty including
earned legalization. I felt like they have two letters and depending on
what you wrote they send you form letter A or form letter B!! They
obviously sent me the wrong letter the second time by accident. How can
we trust that our lives are in the hands of people who can't even stand
up and be honest to all of their constituents. They have to truly have
a heartfelt opinion either way right?
I'm a US Citizen married to a Mexican who came (illegally) as a minor
(17) to work on a farm. We have been married for 4 years and have
children. He and I have been working on making him a legal resident for
the last 2 years. He voluntarily departed to Mexico in January and we
have been separated since then with me here raising the kids alone
struggling on one income (we aren't now nor ever have been on any type
of public assistance either).
We had to file what is called an I601 waiver and prove "extreme
hardship" to me and the kids(the US Citizens) and ask for an exception
to the 10 year ban he was subject to for entering the US illegally and
being present illegally in the US for over a year. He now is in a
country he hasn't lived in ever as an adult (had been in the US for 10
years)waiting for an answer.
I feel that this is tearing us apart as a family and the ones suffering
the most are the kids. It seems like family unity has not been taken
into consideration in recent debate. Why do you think that might be and
what would the church's position be on this issue and the one of
conflicting letters from the same senator?
Sincerely, Angela Torres
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: Thank you for your reply. You have
a powerful story and one that is true for millions of people in this
country. We would like to know if you would like to share this story
with others. Please get in touch with us at or
flopez@goccs.org
The church should be for family values and hope that we can advocate
for family reunification of families as much as that is possible. God
bless you in this time of separation. We will keep you in our prayers,
Angela.
salem, oregon: Currently the majority of illegal immigrants are
Hispnaic and of Catholic religious affiliation. Would the Catholic
church be interested in assisting the illegal immigrant community if it
were predominatley comprised of Muslums, Jews, or atheists?
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: Catholic churches and, indeed, many
of the protestant churches involved (this is an ecumenical group) serve
God's children regardless of their status or beliefs. The many
programs, such as food pantries and other social services, serve the
community at large without asking for their beliefs first.
Salem Oregon: Illegal immigrants are people that are in this country
illegally.
Why should taxpayers support illegal immigrants?
Why do illegal immigrants expect taxpayers to support them?
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: One of the most common
misconceptions is that the drain on the social services in this country
is greater than economic growth produced by undocumented immigrants. In
one estimate, immigrants earn about $240 billion a year, pay about $90
billion a year in taxes and use about $5 billion in public benefits. In
another cut of the data, immigration tax payments total $20 billion $30
billion more than the amount of government services they use. (Friends
Committee on National Legislation).
The other source of data are the U.S. Urban Institute and the General
Accounting Office, which is the independent branch of congress that
studies the use of tax dollars.
Undocumented workers are, for the most part, taxpayers. By using Social
Security numbers (albeit often false numbers) taxes are automatically
taken out of their paycheck each month — the same taxes that citizens
pay. Undocumented workers do not, however, file tax returns every year.
So taxes are being paid and the government keeps the refund to fund
other social problems.
Undocumented workers are seeking to support themselves and their
families, whether or not those families are blessed enough to be
together or separated across borders.
Salem, Oregon: Were you disappointed that more churches in the Salem
area did not take part in the signed statement? Do you have plans of
getting more churches involved?
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: We were excited by the level of
response in Marion County and will continue to educate and invite more
local churches to be involved in our goals of advocacy, further
education, assisting undocumented immigrants in the citizenship
process, and in participating in our delegations to go to the
U.S.-Mexico border and to Oaxaca, Mexico, and El Salvador to discover
the root causes of migration. We think that this is just the beginning
of a new understanding of our response as people of faith.
Salem, OR: Good afternoon,
How do you address critics who claim that the church should not involve
themselves in what – in their view – is a political issue? Some have
suggested that tax-exempt status be removed from those churches who
seek to educate their congregations about the illegal immigrant issue.
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: The care of God's children is not a
solely "political" issue it is a basic Gospel tenant. Federal law does
not say you cannot educate and advocate for justice and mercy for God's
people within the church. Churches are not social clubs or
entertainment centers, but are in the business of freeing people.
Churches were doing social services and programs throughout history —
even before they became government programs, including advocating and
educating for the common good.
SALEM, OR: You said you do not advocate the illegal crossing of our
borders, yet, with your actions you make it easier for those that have
done so to remain here, which would logically provide incentive to
others thinking about it to do so, knowing that groups such as yours
are waiting and willing to help them once they get here. How do you
reconcile your response with the reality the "if you offer it, they
will come" reality?
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: I (Francisco) came to this country
as a refugee from the war in El Salvador and my major motivation for
coming to the U.S. was not because the churches were offering help but
because I wanted to save my life from a U.S.-backed military
dictatorship. I am a U.S. citizen now and I love this country and one
of the ways in which I give back to this country is to help other
political or economic refugees that are already here escaping war or
major economic difficulties. These are conditions that our government
has helped co-create. We'd like to look out our responsibility in this
process.
We don't think that "samaritan" aid is a major incentive for immigrants
to come. Poverty, war, and political oppression are much greater
incentives. Many are suffering from institutional violence, when their
governments are not providing basic survival needs, many have to flee
that situation.
Sarah Harkness and Francisco López: We thank you very much for this
civilized dialogue. We hope that we will continue to ask the hard
questions, as that will lead us toward possible, hope-filled actions.
We also hope that this will help us to connect with our own
foundational stories and how these stories inform who we are and how we
are in the world.
Francisco, Sarah
--
http://www.predatoryaliens.com
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org
http://www.daylaborers.org
http://www.newnation.com/index2.html
"The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave" by Heather Mac Donald
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html
http://idexer.com
www.AmericanPatrol.com
www.SaveOurState.org
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| User: "NRen2k5" |
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| Title: Re: Incensed Americans hammer pair of pro-illegal heads-up-their-asseschurch representatives |
08 Jul 2006 06:21:35 AM |
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George Washington Admirer wrote:
"... We will abide by the law, but are not obligated to abide by
immoral laws. Laws which do great harm and damage to God's children.
Laws of inequality, oppression, economic injustice."
Unfortunately, the above statement is complete HYPOCRISY AND *****
on the part of those who uttered it! Here's why:
The same pair of pro-illegal alien invasion idiots who said the above
are very active members of churches which view abortion as MURDER, a
crime FAR more serious than even sneaking into the USA illegally. Yet
do they openly admit to BREAKING THE LAW to oppose abortions? NO!
Thus, the same people (as well as the outlaw Cardinal Roger Mahoney
of Los Angeles, who publically vows that his underlings WON'T obey U.S.
immigration law) who openly say they'll break the law in regard to
immigration WON'T, in contrast, do so to save the life of an unborn
child!
But how do you propose they passively break the law to save the life of
an unborn child when the mother-to-be herself does not even want the
child to be born?
It takes an idiot like you to label them as hypocrites.
--
http://pcguyelevated.ytmnd.com/
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Incensed Americans hammer pair of pro-illegal heads-up-their-asses church representatives |
08 Jul 2006 09:25:47 AM |
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George Washington Admirer wrote:
"... We will abide by the law, but are not obligated to abide by
immoral laws. Laws which do great harm and damage to God's children.
Laws of inequality, oppression, economic injustice."
As a former fisherman, I would occassionally hook into small catfish
that ruined my casts and wasted my time. We called them yellow-bellies.
Not only were they unexpected and unwelcome surprises that were a pain
to get off the hook, but that also had an unpleasant 'squishy' quality
to them compounded with sharp uprighteous spurred fins. Lugubrious too.
The point is that all yellowbellies should stay in their normal
habitats and not venture into waters where they are out of their depth.
There should be laws prohibiting this behavior.
And actually there are.
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