| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"burrah" |
| Date: |
20 Jan 2006 04:18:08 AM |
| Object: |
Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2458/
The Islamic Republic of Iran--under the new government of President Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad--is engaged in a major anti-homosexual pogrom targeting gays and
gay sex. This campaign includes Internet entrapment, blackmail to force
arrested gays to inform on others, torture and executions of those found
guilty of engaging in "homosexual acts."
Homosexual acts have been considered a capital crime in Iran since the 1979
revolution that brought the Ayatollah Khomeini to power. Iranians found
guilty of gay lovemaking are given a choice of four death styles: being
hanged, stoned, halved by a sword or dropped from the highest perch.
According to Article 152 of Iran's penal law, if two men not related by
blood are found naked under one cover without good reason, both will be
punished at a judge's discretion.
Iran's crackdown on gays drew worldwide protests (except in the United
States) after the hanging for "homosexual acts" of two teenagers--one 18,
the other believed to be 16 or 17--on July 19 in the city of Mashad. Charges
against the two teens included the alleged rape of another youth. But three
independent gay sources inside Mashad told Afdhere Jama, editor of Huriyah
(an Internet zine for gay Muslims), that the teens were well known in the
city's underground gay community as lovers who lived together, and that the
rape charge was fabricated. The editors of an underground Persian-language
zine in Iran (who requested anonymity out of fear) also confirm that their
own Mashad sources said that the rape charge was trumped up--a view now
generally accepted. In any case, the hangings were illegal under
international law because Iran is a signatory to two treaties that forbid
executing minors. Since then, there have been reports of at least a dozen
more gay victims who have been executed.
"Under Islamic law, which has been adopted by Iran's legal system, it takes
four witnesses to prove an act of homosexuality, which is a capital crime.
That's why it's much easier for the Islamic government to invent other
criminal charges against gay people to get rid of them," Jama told me. The
Iranian gay zine's editors said the same, urging Westerners to be "very
careful" before accepting such criminal charges at face value, as they are
"most likely false."
Amir is a 22-year-old gay Iranian who was arrested by Iran's religious
morality police as part of a massive Internet entrapment campaign targeting
gays. He escaped from Iran in August, and is now in Turkey seeking asylum in
a gay-friendly country. Through a Persian translator, Amir gave me a
terrifying, firsthand account of the anti-gay crackdown.
Amir's first arrest for being gay came when police raided a private party.
"The judge told me, 'If we send you to a physician who vouches that your
rectum has been penetrated in any way, you will be sentenced to death',"
says Amir. He was fined and released for lack of proof that a sexual act had
taken place.
Later, an unrepentant Amir set up a meeting with a man he met through a
Yahoo gay chat room. When his date turned out to be a member of the sex
police, Amir was arrested and taken to Intelligence Ministry headquarters,
"a very scary place," he says. "There I denied that I was gay--but they
showed me a printout from the chat room of my messages and my pictures."
Then, says Amir, the torture began. "There was a metal chair in the middle
of the room--they put a gas flame under the chair and made me sit on it as
the metal seat got hotter and hotter. They threatened to send me to an army
barracks where all the soldiers were going to rape me. The leader told one
of the other officers to take [a soft drink] bottle and shove it up my *****,
screaming, 'This will teach you not to want any more *****!' I was so afraid
of sitting in that metal chair as it got hotter and hotter that I confessed.
Then they brought out my file and told me that I was a 'famous *****' in
Shiraz. They beat me up so badly that I passed out and was thrown,
unconscious, into a holding cell.
"When I came to, I saw there were several dozen other gay guys in the cell
with me. One of them told me that after they had taken him in, they beat him
and forced him to set up dates with people through chat rooms--and each one
of those people had been arrested; those were the other people in that cell
with me."
Eventually tried, Amir was sentenced to 100 lashes. "I passed out before the
100 lashes were over. When I woke up, my arms and legs were so numb that I
fell over when they picked me up from the platform on which I'd been lashed.
They had told me that if I screamed, they would beat me even harder--so I
was biting my arms so hard, to keep from screaming, that I left deep teeth
wounds in my own arms."
After this entrapment and public flogging, Amir's life became unbearable. He
was rousted regularly at his home by the basiji (a para-police made up of
thugs recruited from the criminal classes and the lumpen unemployed) and by
agents of the Office for Promotion of Virtue and Prohibition of Vice, which
represses "moral deviance"--things like boys and girls walking around
holding hands, women not wearing proper Islamic dress and prostitution. Says
Amir, "In one of these arrests, Colonel Javanmardi told me that if they
catch me again that I would be put to death, 'just like the boys in Mashad.'
He said it just like that, very simply, very explicitly. He didn't mince
words. We all know that the boys who were hanged in Mashad were gay--the
rape charges against them were trumped up, just like the charges of theft
and kidnapping against them. When you get arrested, you are forced by
beatings, torture and threats to confess to crimes you didn't commit. It
happens all the time, and has to friends of mine."
Amir's experience is typical--as is the lack of concern evidenced by U.S.
LGBT oganizations. Both of the principal U.S. gay rights
organizations--Human Rights Campaign and the National Gay and Lesbian Task
Force--have failed to incorporate international solidarity with persecuted
gays into their fundraising-driven agendas, and neither have mobilized
public protests against Iran's anti-gay pogrom. Their European counterparts,
in contrast, organized multiple demonstrations at Iranian embassies across
the Continent.
The Persian Gay and Lesbian Organization (PGLO) is the principal group for
Iranian gays, claiming 29,000 on its e-mail list. The PGLO--which publishes
a monthly Internet magazine in Persian, hosts radio netcasts into Iran, and
has secretariats in Turkey and Norway--has appealed to Western gays to
mobilize international protests against the inhumane tragedy that has
befallen Iranian same-sexers. To find out how to help, visit
http://www.pglo.org.
.
|
|
| User: "David Moss" |
|
| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
20 Jan 2006 03:38:13 PM |
|
|
In article <dqr3h1$l04$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, burrah007
@hotmail.com writes...
"Under Islamic law, which has been adopted by Iran's legal system, it takes
four witnesses to prove an act of homosexuality, which is a capital crime.
A rape charge also requires four witnesses to succeed in Iran. The
feminists have been complaining about it for years.
Methinks the basis of this story might be true, but the "facts" in the
article might be suspect.
--
DM
personal opinion only
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Harbinger" |
|
| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
20 Jan 2006 05:24:31 PM |
|
|
David Moss wrote:
In article <dqr3h1$l04$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, burrah007
@hotmail.com writes...
"Under Islamic law, which has been adopted by Iran's legal system, it takes
four witnesses to prove an act of homosexuality, which is a capital crime.
A rape charge also requires four witnesses to succeed in Iran. The
feminists have been complaining about it for years.
Methinks the basis of this story might be true, but the "facts" in the
article might be suspect.
--
DM
personal opinion only
Its all too true I'm afraid.
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html
.
|
|
|
| User: "David Moss" |
|
| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
21 Jan 2006 06:12:00 AM |
|
|
In article <1137799471.210466.118360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
David Moss wrote:
In article <dqr3h1$l04$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, burrah007
@hotmail.com writes...
"Under Islamic law, which has been adopted by Iran's legal system, it takes
four witnesses to prove an act of homosexuality, which is a capital crime.
A rape charge also requires four witnesses to succeed in Iran. The
feminists have been complaining about it for years.
Methinks the basis of this story might be true, but the "facts" in the
article might be suspect.
--
DM
personal opinion only
Its all too true I'm afraid.
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html
If they were found guilty of rape under Sharia Law there must have been
four male witnesses testifying against them.
see: http://www.ishr.org/activities/campaigns/stoning/adultery.htm
Its practically impossible to get a rape conviction under normal
circumstances. Few people rape others with four independent male
witnesses just looking on. Anyone who does just look on in those
circumstances is unlikely to testify.
As I said, women's rights activists have been angry about the burden of
proof falling on the victim under Sharia Law for decades.
Claiming gays are being stitched up under the same conditions is plain
silly.
Yes, homosexuality is illegal in Iran. If you are homosexual, don't
engage in homosexual sex in Iran. Obvious really.
Incidentally, the Iranian Mullahs frown on heterosexual sex outside of
marriage too. The penalty for that is death too.
--
DM
personal opinion only
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Harbinger" |
|
| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
21 Jan 2006 11:06:17 AM |
|
|
David Moss wrote:
In article <1137799471.210466.118360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
David Moss wrote:
In article <dqr3h1$l04$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, burrah007
@hotmail.com writes...
"Under Islamic law, which has been adopted by Iran's legal system, it takes
four witnesses to prove an act of homosexuality, which is a capital crime.
A rape charge also requires four witnesses to succeed in Iran. The
feminists have been complaining about it for years.
Methinks the basis of this story might be true, but the "facts" in the
article might be suspect.
--
DM
personal opinion only
Its all too true I'm afraid.
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html
If they were found guilty of rape under Sharia Law there must have been
four male witnesses testifying against them.
see: http://www.ishr.org/activities/campaigns/stoning/adultery.htm
Its practically impossible to get a rape conviction under normal
circumstances. Few people rape others with four independent male
witnesses just looking on. Anyone who does just look on in those
circumstances is unlikely to testify.
As I said, women's rights activists have been angry about the burden of
proof falling on the victim under Sharia Law for decades.
Claiming gays are being stitched up under the same conditions is plain
silly.
Yes, homosexuality is illegal in Iran. If you are homosexual, don't
engage in homosexual sex in Iran. Obvious really.
Incidentally, the Iranian Mullahs frown on heterosexual sex outside of
marriage too. The penalty for that is death too.
Oh that's OK then. adultery, apostacy, gay sex, just execute them then.
Its good that you can be so blase about what is basically a prehistoric
regime that butchers people in the name of the law.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris X" |
|
| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
21 Jan 2006 11:07:52 AM |
|
|
"The Harbinger" <DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137863177.848643.20910@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
David Moss wrote:
In article <1137799471.210466.118360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
David Moss wrote:
In article <dqr3h1$l04$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, burrah007
@hotmail.com writes...
"Under Islamic law, which has been adopted by Iran's legal system,
it takes
four witnesses to prove an act of homosexuality, which is a capital
crime.
A rape charge also requires four witnesses to succeed in Iran. The
feminists have been complaining about it for years.
Methinks the basis of this story might be true, but the "facts" in
the
article might be suspect.
--
DM
personal opinion only
Its all too true I'm afraid.
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html
If they were found guilty of rape under Sharia Law there must have been
four male witnesses testifying against them.
see: http://www.ishr.org/activities/campaigns/stoning/adultery.htm
Its practically impossible to get a rape conviction under normal
circumstances. Few people rape others with four independent male
witnesses just looking on. Anyone who does just look on in those
circumstances is unlikely to testify.
As I said, women's rights activists have been angry about the burden of
proof falling on the victim under Sharia Law for decades.
Claiming gays are being stitched up under the same conditions is plain
silly.
Yes, homosexuality is illegal in Iran. If you are homosexual, don't
engage in homosexual sex in Iran. Obvious really.
Incidentally, the Iranian Mullahs frown on heterosexual sex outside of
marriage too. The penalty for that is death too.
Oh that's OK then. adultery, apostacy, gay sex, just execute them then.
Its good that you can be so blase about what is basically a prehistoric
regime that butchers people in the name of the law.
Just like Moronica.
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Harbinger" |
|
| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
21 Jan 2006 11:27:22 AM |
|
|
Chris X wrote:
"The Harbinger" <DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137863177.848643.20910@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
David Moss wrote:
In article <1137799471.210466.118360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
David Moss wrote:
In article <dqr3h1$l04$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, burrah007
@hotmail.com writes...
"Under Islamic law, which has been adopted by Iran's legal system,
it takes
four witnesses to prove an act of homosexuality, which is a capital
crime.
A rape charge also requires four witnesses to succeed in Iran. The
feminists have been complaining about it for years.
Methinks the basis of this story might be true, but the "facts" in
the
article might be suspect.
--
DM
personal opinion only
Its all too true I'm afraid.
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html
If they were found guilty of rape under Sharia Law there must have been
four male witnesses testifying against them.
see: http://www.ishr.org/activities/campaigns/stoning/adultery.htm
Its practically impossible to get a rape conviction under normal
circumstances. Few people rape others with four independent male
witnesses just looking on. Anyone who does just look on in those
circumstances is unlikely to testify.
As I said, women's rights activists have been angry about the burden of
proof falling on the victim under Sharia Law for decades.
Claiming gays are being stitched up under the same conditions is plain
silly.
Yes, homosexuality is illegal in Iran. If you are homosexual, don't
engage in homosexual sex in Iran. Obvious really.
Incidentally, the Iranian Mullahs frown on heterosexual sex outside of
marriage too. The penalty for that is death too.
Oh that's OK then. adultery, apostacy, gay sex, just execute them then.
Its good that you can be so blase about what is basically a prehistoric
regime that butchers people in the name of the law.
Just like Moronica.
In order to commit a capital crime in the States you have to be a
premeditated murderer. In Iran you need to have merely stepped outside
accepted social behaviour.
Can't you see the difference?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris X" |
|
| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
21 Jan 2006 11:32:30 AM |
|
|
"The Harbinger" <DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137864442.844068.16820@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Chris X wrote:
"The Harbinger" <DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com> wrote in
message
news:1137863177.848643.20910@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
David Moss wrote:
In article <1137799471.210466.118360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
David Moss wrote:
In article <dqr3h1$l04$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, burrah007
@hotmail.com writes...
"Under Islamic law, which has been adopted by Iran's legal
system,
it takes
four witnesses to prove an act of homosexuality, which is a
capital
crime.
A rape charge also requires four witnesses to succeed in Iran. The
feminists have been complaining about it for years.
Methinks the basis of this story might be true, but the "facts" in
the
article might be suspect.
--
DM
personal opinion only
Its all too true I'm afraid.
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html
If they were found guilty of rape under Sharia Law there must have
been
four male witnesses testifying against them.
see: http://www.ishr.org/activities/campaigns/stoning/adultery.htm
Its practically impossible to get a rape conviction under normal
circumstances. Few people rape others with four independent male
witnesses just looking on. Anyone who does just look on in those
circumstances is unlikely to testify.
As I said, women's rights activists have been angry about the burden
of
proof falling on the victim under Sharia Law for decades.
Claiming gays are being stitched up under the same conditions is plain
silly.
Yes, homosexuality is illegal in Iran. If you are homosexual, don't
engage in homosexual sex in Iran. Obvious really.
Incidentally, the Iranian Mullahs frown on heterosexual sex outside of
marriage too. The penalty for that is death too.
Oh that's OK then. adultery, apostacy, gay sex, just execute them then.
Its good that you can be so blase about what is basically a prehistoric
regime that butchers people in the name of the law.
Just like Moronica.
In order to commit a capital crime in the States you have to be a
premeditated murderer. In Iran you need to have merely stepped outside
accepted social behaviour.
Can't you see the difference?
All countries are different, thank Christ. Just learn to mind your own
business, eh ?
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Harbinger" |
|
| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
21 Jan 2006 04:57:07 PM |
|
|
Chris X wrote:
"The Harbinger" <DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137864442.844068.16820@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Chris X wrote:
"The Harbinger" <DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com> wrote in
message
news:1137863177.848643.20910@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
David Moss wrote:
In article <1137799471.210466.118360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
David Moss wrote:
In article <dqr3h1$l04$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, burrah007
@hotmail.com writes...
"Under Islamic law, which has been adopted by Iran's legal
system,
it takes
four witnesses to prove an act of homosexuality, which is a
capital
crime.
A rape charge also requires four witnesses to succeed in Iran. The
feminists have been complaining about it for years.
Methinks the basis of this story might be true, but the "facts" in
the
article might be suspect.
--
DM
personal opinion only
Its all too true I'm afraid.
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html
If they were found guilty of rape under Sharia Law there must have
been
four male witnesses testifying against them.
see: http://www.ishr.org/activities/campaigns/stoning/adultery.htm
Its practically impossible to get a rape conviction under normal
circumstances. Few people rape others with four independent male
witnesses just looking on. Anyone who does just look on in those
circumstances is unlikely to testify.
As I said, women's rights activists have been angry about the burden
of
proof falling on the victim under Sharia Law for decades.
Claiming gays are being stitched up under the same conditions is plain
silly.
Yes, homosexuality is illegal in Iran. If you are homosexual, don't
engage in homosexual sex in Iran. Obvious really.
Incidentally, the Iranian Mullahs frown on heterosexual sex outside of
marriage too. The penalty for that is death too.
Oh that's OK then. adultery, apostacy, gay sex, just execute them then.
Its good that you can be so blase about what is basically a prehistoric
regime that butchers people in the name of the law.
Just like Moronica.
In order to commit a capital crime in the States you have to be a
premeditated murderer. In Iran you need to have merely stepped outside
accepted social behaviour.
Can't you see the difference?
All countries are different, thank Christ. Just learn to mind your own
business, eh ?
I have absolutely no intention of minding my own business. Who do you
think you are telling me to? You' have an opinion on everything too it
seems. This is a public forum and I will say what I like. There is
absolutely no defence whatsoever for the barbaric execution of people
for behaviour most people indulge in at some point. What you then have
is the ultimate hypocrisy. Maybe you should pick up the bible. You want
the bit where some guy says "Let him who is without sin cast the first
stone".
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris X" |
|
| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
21 Jan 2006 05:02:32 PM |
|
|
"The Harbinger" <DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137884227.630727.66870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Chris X wrote:
"The Harbinger" <DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com> wrote in
message
news:1137864442.844068.16820@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Chris X wrote:
"The Harbinger" <DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com> wrote in
message
news:1137863177.848643.20910@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
David Moss wrote:
In article <1137799471.210466.118360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
David Moss wrote:
In article <dqr3h1$l04$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, burrah007
@hotmail.com writes...
"Under Islamic law, which has been adopted by Iran's legal
system,
it takes
four witnesses to prove an act of homosexuality, which is a
capital
crime.
A rape charge also requires four witnesses to succeed in Iran.
The
feminists have been complaining about it for years.
Methinks the basis of this story might be true, but the "facts"
in
the
article might be suspect.
--
DM
personal opinion only
Its all too true I'm afraid.
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html
If they were found guilty of rape under Sharia Law there must have
been
four male witnesses testifying against them.
see: http://www.ishr.org/activities/campaigns/stoning/adultery.htm
Its practically impossible to get a rape conviction under normal
circumstances. Few people rape others with four independent male
witnesses just looking on. Anyone who does just look on in those
circumstances is unlikely to testify.
As I said, women's rights activists have been angry about the
burden
of
proof falling on the victim under Sharia Law for decades.
Claiming gays are being stitched up under the same conditions is
plain
silly.
Yes, homosexuality is illegal in Iran. If you are homosexual, don't
engage in homosexual sex in Iran. Obvious really.
Incidentally, the Iranian Mullahs frown on heterosexual sex outside
of
marriage too. The penalty for that is death too.
Oh that's OK then. adultery, apostacy, gay sex, just execute them
then.
Its good that you can be so blase about what is basically a
prehistoric
regime that butchers people in the name of the law.
Just like Moronica.
In order to commit a capital crime in the States you have to be a
premeditated murderer. In Iran you need to have merely stepped outside
accepted social behaviour.
Can't you see the difference?
All countries are different, thank Christ. Just learn to mind your own
business, eh ?
I have absolutely no intention of minding my own business. Who do you
think you are telling me to? You' have an opinion on everything too it
seems. This is a public forum and I will say what I like.
I was referring to your country, not you as an individual.
There is
absolutely no defence whatsoever for the barbaric execution of people
for behaviour most people indulge in at some point. What you then have
is the ultimate hypocrisy. Maybe you should pick up the bible. You want
the bit where some guy says "Let him who is without sin cast the first
stone".
Then your country should take that part of the bible on board, and stop
meddling in other countries business whilst hiding your imperialist agenda
behind the mask of "humanitarianism" or "peace keeping".
.
|
|
|
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| User: "David Moss" |
|
| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
21 Jan 2006 05:45:33 PM |
|
|
In article <1137884227.630727.66870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
There is
absolutely no defence whatsoever for the barbaric execution of people
for behaviour most people indulge in at some point.
I think you may be a little confused. Most people feel homosexual
attraction at some point, very few people act on it.
Society must draw the line somewhere to delineate what it accepts from
what it doesn't. It must then determine an appropriate punishment for
those who cross the line.
Arguably the only difference between countries is where that line is
drawn on various issues, and the penalties for transgression.
The USA kills people for murder. Australia doesn't. Pakistan and Iran
kill people for adultery. The USA doesn't. They are not all the same
country so why expect them all to have the same cultural values and
penalties, crimes and penalties?
--
DM
personal opinion only
.
|
|
|
| User: "WD" |
|
| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
21 Jan 2006 07:31:48 PM |
|
|
David Moss wrote:
In article <1137884227.630727.66870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
There is
absolutely no defence whatsoever for the barbaric execution of people
for behaviour most people indulge in at some point.
I think you may be a little confused. Most people feel homosexual
attraction at some point, very few people act on it.
Society must draw the line somewhere to delineate what it accepts from
what it doesn't. It must then determine an appropriate punishment for
those who cross the line.
Arguably the only difference between countries is where that line is
drawn on various issues, and the penalties for transgression.
The USA kills people for murder. Australia doesn't. Pakistan and Iran
kill people for adultery. The USA doesn't. They are not all the same
country so why expect them all to have the same cultural values and
penalties, crimes and penalties?
"the only difference..." You act as if where the line is drawn is a
trivial detail - It isn't. It is the difference between right and
wrong. Right and wrong are not dependent upon what country you're in
or what the prevailing culture is. That only determines what is
popular and/or what is enforced by the local authorities.
W.D.
.
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| User: "David Moss" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
22 Jan 2006 04:45:04 AM |
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In article <1137893508.871535.280220@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
tuariki1@woosh.co.nz writes...
David Moss wrote:
In article <1137884227.630727.66870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
There is
absolutely no defence whatsoever for the barbaric execution of people
for behaviour most people indulge in at some point.
I think you may be a little confused. Most people feel homosexual
attraction at some point, very few people act on it.
Society must draw the line somewhere to delineate what it accepts from
what it doesn't. It must then determine an appropriate punishment for
those who cross the line.
Arguably the only difference between countries is where that line is
drawn on various issues, and the penalties for transgression.
The USA kills people for murder. Australia doesn't. Pakistan and Iran
kill people for adultery. The USA doesn't. They are not all the same
country so why expect them all to have the same cultural values and
penalties, crimes and penalties?
"the only difference..." You act as if where the line is drawn is a
trivial detail - It isn't. It is the difference between right and
wrong. Right and wrong are not dependent upon what country you're in
or what the prevailing culture is. That only determines what is
popular and/or what is enforced by the local authorities.
OK Ill bite. What does determine whats right qand whats wrong?
--
DM
personal opinion only
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| User: "WD" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
22 Jan 2006 06:39:45 AM |
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David Moss wrote:
snip
Arguably the only difference between countries is where that line is
drawn on various issues, and the penalties for transgression.
The USA kills people for murder. Australia doesn't. Pakistan and Iran
kill people for adultery. The USA doesn't. They are not all the same
country so why expect them all to have the same cultural values and
penalties, crimes and penalties?
"the only difference..." You act as if where the line is drawn is a
trivial detail - It isn't. It is the difference between right and
wrong. Right and wrong are not dependent upon what country you're in
or what the prevailing culture is. That only determines what is
popular and/or what is enforced by the local authorities.
OK Ill bite. What does determine whats right qand whats wrong?
A rational mind.
W.D.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
22 Jan 2006 07:50:31 PM |
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WD wrote:
David Moss wrote:
snip
Arguably the only difference between countries is where that line is
drawn on various issues, and the penalties for transgression.
The USA kills people for murder. Australia doesn't. Pakistan and Iran
kill people for adultery. The USA doesn't. They are not all the same
country so why expect them all to have the same cultural values and
penalties, crimes and penalties?
"the only difference..." You act as if where the line is drawn is a
trivial detail - It isn't. It is the difference between right and
wrong. Right and wrong are not dependent upon what country you're in
or what the prevailing culture is. That only determines what is
popular and/or what is enforced by the local authorities.
OK Ill bite. What does determine whats right qand whats wrong?
A rational mind.
A rational mind would determine right and wrong by comparing the
options to a standard. A mind that makes a distinction without such a
standard external reference is acting arbitrarily, not rationally.
The truth is what we consider right and wrong is situational. It does
depend on what country you are in and the prevailing culture. In some
situations what is popular may indeed determine what is right and what
is wrong.
DM
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| User: "The Harbinger" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
24 Jan 2006 03:00:09 AM |
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wrote:
WD wrote:
David Moss wrote:
snip
Arguably the only difference between countries is where that line is
drawn on various issues, and the penalties for transgression.
The USA kills people for murder. Australia doesn't. Pakistan and Iran
kill people for adultery. The USA doesn't. They are not all the same
country so why expect them all to have the same cultural values and
penalties, crimes and penalties?
"the only difference..." You act as if where the line is drawn is a
trivial detail - It isn't. It is the difference between right and
wrong. Right and wrong are not dependent upon what country you're in
or what the prevailing culture is. That only determines what is
popular and/or what is enforced by the local authorities.
OK Ill bite. What does determine whats right qand whats wrong?
A rational mind.
A rational mind would determine right and wrong by comparing the
options to a standard. A mind that makes a distinction without such a
standard external reference is acting arbitrarily, not rationally.
The truth is what we consider right and wrong is situational. It does
depend on what country you are in and the prevailing culture. In some
situations what is popular may indeed determine what is right and what
is wrong.
DM
Yet right and wrong so often follow the same pattern throughout the
world. The prevailing mode of thought in successful cultures tends to
expect people to live and let live. Charity and self-sacrifice for the
common good are a central tenet of belief systems that have developed
independently.
Stoning people to death is not normal. Where else does it occur other
than backward Muslim states? If you think about it for a moment it is
clearly a prehistoric punishment. Do you think that educated Iranians
think it is right? Of course they don't but they darent suggest
otherwise.
There are no excuses. If these barbaric nations spent as much on
education as on stockpiling weapons and supporting terrorists then do
you think their citizens would have the same attitude?
Do you think that
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| User: "David Moss" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
24 Jan 2006 08:34:46 AM |
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In article <1138093209.442618.7890@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
d-moss@adfa.edu.au wrote:
WD wrote:
David Moss wrote:
snip
Arguably the only difference between countries is where that line is
drawn on various issues, and the penalties for transgression.
The USA kills people for murder. Australia doesn't. Pakistan and Iran
kill people for adultery. The USA doesn't. They are not all the same
country so why expect them all to have the same cultural values and
penalties, crimes and penalties?
"the only difference..." You act as if where the line is drawn is a
trivial detail - It isn't. It is the difference between right and
wrong. Right and wrong are not dependent upon what country you're in
or what the prevailing culture is. That only determines what is
popular and/or what is enforced by the local authorities.
OK Ill bite. What does determine whats right qand whats wrong?
A rational mind.
A rational mind would determine right and wrong by comparing the
options to a standard. A mind that makes a distinction without such a
standard external reference is acting arbitrarily, not rationally.
The truth is what we consider right and wrong is situational. It does
depend on what country you are in and the prevailing culture. In some
situations what is popular may indeed determine what is right and what
is wrong.
DM
Yet right and wrong so often follow the same pattern throughout the
world. The prevailing mode of thought in successful cultures tends to
expect people to live and let live. Charity and self-sacrifice for the
common good are a central tenet of belief systems that have developed
independently.
Stoning people to death is not normal. Where else does it occur other
than backward Muslim states? If you think about it for a moment it is
clearly a prehistoric punishment. Do you think that educated Iranians
think it is right? Of course they don't but they darent suggest
otherwise.
There are no excuses. If these barbaric nations spent as much on
education as on stockpiling weapons and supporting terrorists then do
you think their citizens would have the same attitude?
Do you think that
Do I think that you are a little confused? Yes.
Is the death penalty itself wrong, or is it just the method of stoning?
If the death penalty is wrong then "advanced" nations such as the USA
and Singapore are to be condemned alongside "backward" nations like
Iran.
If it is only stoning that worries you, think about why this inefficient
execution method might be useful.
In the USA the act of killing is abstracted. Execution is by a bizarre
electrocution device, or by a machine administered lethal injection. The
devices are seen as doing the killing, any people involved merely look
after the device.
The object of this abstraction is so that no one person can be seen as
having killed another. This is an important cultural artefact which
prevents the family of the victim engaging in a vendetta, and also helps
minimise the guilt feelings of those involved in the execution.
In low tech societies stoning fulfills a similar role. Everyone
participates in the stoning, but no single individual can be held
responsible for the killing.
Capital punishment is quite popular even today. It is widely believed
that should a plebiscite be held in Australia the majority would favour
capital punishment for the most serious of murders and violent rapes.
So, is capital punishment wrong?
If so the people of the USA, Singapore and Australia are just as
prehistoric as those of Iran.
Is stoning wrong? If so the lethal injection, the electric chair, even
the hangman's hood and the gallows trapdoor mechanism, which serve the
same purpose, are wrong.
Or perhaps right and wrong are situational, cultural even. Capital
punishment is right if *we* do it *our* way, but wrong if *they* do it
*their* way.
--
DM
personal opinion only
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| User: "WD" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
25 Jan 2006 03:31:50 AM |
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David Moss wrote:
snip
Is stoning wrong? If so the lethal injection, the electric chair, even
the hangman's hood and the gallows trapdoor mechanism, which serve the
same purpose, are wrong.
Or perhaps right and wrong are situational, cultural even. Capital
punishment is right if *we* do it *our* way, but wrong if *they* do it
*their* way.
I think you miss the point. Though I don't agree with capital
punishment using any method, the reason I don't agree with it is that
one can never know for sure whether a murderer is actually guilty.
However, I don't believe that execution is an unjust punishment for
someone who kills another person in cold blood.
However with the situation in Iran the most important point is not just
that they are killing people but what they are killing them for -
simply being homosexual or having adulterous affairs. These are things
which shouldn't be crimes at all. They infringe on no one elses
rights.
W.D.
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| User: "David Moss" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
25 Jan 2006 05:14:05 AM |
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In article <1138181510.815666.240600@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
tuariki1@woosh.co.nz writes...
David Moss wrote:
snip
Is stoning wrong? If so the lethal injection, the electric chair, even
the hangman's hood and the gallows trapdoor mechanism, which serve the
same purpose, are wrong.
Or perhaps right and wrong are situational, cultural even. Capital
punishment is right if *we* do it *our* way, but wrong if *they* do it
*their* way.
I think you miss the point. Though I don't agree with capital
punishment using any method, the reason I don't agree with it is that
one can never know for sure whether a murderer is actually guilty.
However, I don't believe that execution is an unjust punishment for
someone who kills another person in cold blood.
However with the situation in Iran the most important point is not just
that they are killing people but what they are killing them for -
simply being homosexual or having adulterous affairs. These are things
which shouldn't be crimes at all. They infringe on no one elses
rights.
You think they should not be crimes at all. The previous US President
probably didn't think adultery was a bad thing either. The point is, the
people in Iran do think adultery is criminal. So much so they impose the
death penalty for it. Thats why there is a country called the USA and a
country called Iran. The people in them have distinct cultural values.
BTW *being* homosexual does not get you punished in Iran. Performing
homosexual acts does.
Moral: don't screw around with people you shouldn't in Iran.
--
DM
personal opinion only
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| User: "WD" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
25 Jan 2006 07:10:20 AM |
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David Moss wrote:
snip
You think they should not be crimes at all. The previous US President
probably didn't think adultery was a bad thing either. The point is, the
people in Iran do think adultery is criminal. So much so they impose the
death penalty for it. Thats why there is a country called the USA and a
country called Iran. The people in them have distinct cultural values.
Do you think it is a coincidence that the USA is the only remaining
superpower?
Sure you could point out that some countries are simply luckier than
others. For instance Africa had the disadvantage of few navigable
waterways. But clearly there are some that are just not run right and
never have been.
And it's not just the USA that has a rich population. The entire
western world in general has enriched their people whereas countries
like Iran have prevented this with totalitarian rule. They have an
Earthquake and tens of thousands die.
Could it be that while morality is subjective and people can believe
whatever they want to believe, there is only one *reality*. It's like
having a car race and you can pick whatever car you like. One person
picks a ferrari and the other chooses a go-kart. Doesn't matter how
much you *believe* you will win the race, you're gonna lose with a
go-kart.
W.D.
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| User: "WD" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
25 Jan 2006 03:52:43 AM |
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wrote:
WD wrote:
snip
OK Ill bite. What does determine whats right qand whats wrong?
A rational mind.
A rational mind would determine right and wrong by comparing the
options to a standard. A mind that makes a distinction without such a
standard external reference is acting arbitrarily, not rationally.
The truth is what we consider right and wrong is situational. It does
depend on what country you are in and the prevailing culture. In some
situations what is popular may indeed determine what is right and what
is wrong.
In the context of this discussion morality isn't situational. Killing
homosexuals simply for being homosexual isn't justified in any country,
even one as backward as Iran.
I accept that one must subjectively pick a standard to argue from.
However, some standards are simply not rational themselves. Some
standards (such as Islam) are not based on observation or reality at
all - they are based on blind faith and make-believe. How can it be
rational to choose a standard which has no basis in reality or at the
very least has no proof that it exists in reality?
W.D.
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| User: "David Moss" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
25 Jan 2006 05:13:04 AM |
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In article <1138182763.005458.129540@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
tuariki1@woosh.co.nz writes...
In the context of this discussion morality isn't situational. Killing
homosexuals simply for being homosexual isn't justified in any country,
even one as backward as Iran.
Morality is always situational. What is moral must be determined from
the frame of reference of the individual asking the question. What is
moral for you might be immoral when viewed from my point of reference,
and vice versa.
How do you feel about paedophilia. I think it is immoral, but I have met
people who argued in favour of consensual sex between adults and
children. They would argue Australia is backward for locking up
paedophiles. I argue they should throw away the key.
I accept that one must subjectively pick a standard to argue from.
However, some standards are simply not rational themselves. Some
standards (such as Islam) are not based on observation or reality at
all - they are based on blind faith and make-believe. How can it be
rational to choose a standard which has no basis in reality or at the
very least has no proof that it exists in reality?
Why do you think homosexuality is a right and proper thing to practice
when it is so obviously unnatural and the primary cause of AIDS in
Australia? Blind faith and make believe?
--
DM
personal opinion only
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| User: "WD" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
25 Jan 2006 06:56:19 AM |
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David Moss wrote:
In article <1138182763.005458.129540@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
tuariki1@woosh.co.nz writes...
In the context of this discussion morality isn't situational. Killing
homosexuals simply for being homosexual isn't justified in any country,
even one as backward as Iran.
Morality is always situational. What is moral must be determined from
the frame of reference of the individual asking the question. What is
moral for you might be immoral when viewed from my point of reference,
and vice versa.
I accept they have different points of view - my argument is that they
are *wrong*. Their beliefs are irrational and when implemented
increase human suffering. Whether or not the authorities care about
such suffering such acts will lead to resentment and that is the reason
such states have to keep tight controls on their populace.
The US executes murderers but that doesn't mean it is forced to keep
control of its population in the manner states like Iran do.
How do you feel about paedophilia. I think it is immoral, but I have met
people who argued in favour of consensual sex between adults and
children. They would argue Australia is backward for locking up
paedophiles. I argue they should throw away the key.
Silly analogy. A child cannot consent in the sense that they do not
understand the decision they are making or the consequences of that
decision. Homosexual acts between consenting adults is not a situation
that violates someones right.
I accept that one must subjectively pick a standard to argue from.
However, some standards are simply not rational themselves. Some
standards (such as Islam) are not based on observation or reality at
all - they are based on blind faith and make-believe. How can it be
rational to choose a standard which has no basis in reality or at the
very least has no proof that it exists in reality?
Why do you think homosexuality is a right and proper thing to practice
when it is so obviously unnatural
I remember watching an episode of the late show. As I recall the guest
came on, stuck a spoon up his nose, then scooped some breakfast cereal
from a bowl and dropped it in his mouth. That's pretty damn
"unnatural". Shall we prepare the firing squad for this individual
simply because he was doing something unnatural?
People should be able to do *whatever* they want (within reason) as
long as it doesn't violate the rights of other people. Just because it
offends your sensibilities doesn't mean you should be able to dictate
to others how to live their life.
and the primary cause of AIDS in
Australia? Blind faith and make believe?
I don't suppose you're reffering to lesbians?
People should have every right to practice dangerous activities as long
as they are the ones who suffer the consequences.
There is a point to be made that at the end of the day the taxpayer
often picks up the bill for medical treatment as a result of people
doing dangerous things. However, that is societies fault. Society has
decided to establish a universal healthcare system or depending on the
country other types of publicly funded healthcare. It is societies
responsibility to amend the system as they see fit.
As a somewhat regular consumer of fast food (certainly more than I
should) I don't like this line of reasoning that if it has possible
health consequences (and thus a tax burden) that we should start
outlawing it.
W.D.
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| User: "Docky Wocky" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
23 Jan 2006 04:11:38 PM |
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Oh, *****!
Now you did it.
This revelation will immediately cause a 175 degree turn in the left-wing's
excuses for Iranian subterfuge.
Next thing we know, they'll be demanding an invasion.
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| User: "David Moss" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
21 Jan 2006 04:02:25 PM |
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In article <1137864442.844068.16820@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
Chris X wrote:
"The Harbinger" <DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137863177.848643.20910@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
David Moss wrote:
In article <1137799471.210466.118360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@yahoo.com writes...
David Moss wrote:
In article <dqr3h1$l04$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, burrah007
@hotmail.com writes...
"Under Islamic law, which has been adopted by Iran's legal system,
it takes
four witnesses to prove an act of homosexuality, which is a capital
crime.
A rape charge also requires four witnesses to succeed in Iran. The
feminists have been complaining about it for years.
Methinks the basis of this story might be true, but the "facts" in
the
article might be suspect.
--
DM
personal opinion only
Its all too true I'm afraid.
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html
If they were found guilty of rape under Sharia Law there must have been
four male witnesses testifying against them.
see: http://www.ishr.org/activities/campaigns/stoning/adultery.htm
Its practically impossible to get a rape conviction under normal
circumstances. Few people rape others with four independent male
witnesses just looking on. Anyone who does just look on in those
circumstances is unlikely to testify.
As I said, women's rights activists have been angry about the burden of
proof falling on the victim under Sharia Law for decades.
Claiming gays are being stitched up under the same conditions is plain
silly.
Yes, homosexuality is illegal in Iran. If you are homosexual, don't
engage in homosexual sex in Iran. Obvious really.
Incidentally, the Iranian Mullahs frown on heterosexual sex outside of
marriage too. The penalty for that is death too.
Oh that's OK then. adultery, apostacy, gay sex, just execute them then.
Its good that you can be so blase about what is basically a prehistoric
regime that butchers people in the name of the law.
Just like Moronica.
In order to commit a capital crime in the States you have to be a
premeditated murderer. In Iran you need to have merely stepped outside
accepted social behaviour.
Can't you see the difference?
No. Premeditated murder is outside the range of acceptable social
behaviour in the USA, adultery is outside the range of acceptable social
behaviour in Iran.
If you are interested in fine differences, consider why people are
attacking Iran for human rights issues at the present time but ignoring
Pakistan.
Both Pakistan and Iran embrace Sharia Law, with the death penalty an
option for adultery and blasphemy. Pakistan is considered a "valued
ally" while Iran is part of an "axis of evil". Iran is frequently in the
news and on Usenet for its barbaric legal system and Pakistan is rarely
mentioned.
Some people might become suspicious in such a situation.
--
DM
personal opinion only
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| User: "gonesailing_gonefishing" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
20 Jan 2006 04:21:19 PM |
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burrah wrote:
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2458/
The Islamic Republic of Iran--under the new government of President Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad--is engaged in a major anti-homosexual pogrom targeting gays and
gay sex.
Yeah, yeah, fucking big deal. Tell somebody who cares, you ***** packing
poofter.
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| User: "NZDude" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
20 Jan 2006 04:58:57 PM |
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"gonesailing_gonefishing" <gonesailing_gonefishing@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:1137795679.105232.209150@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
burrah wrote:
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2458/
The Islamic Republic of Iran--under the new government of President
Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad--is engaged in a major anti-homosexual pogrom targeting gays
and
gay sex.
Yeah, yeah, fucking big deal. Tell somebody who cares, you ***** packing
poofter.
What a wonderful expression of tolerance.
K-K-Klown
NZD
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| User: "gonesailing_gonefishing" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
21 Jan 2006 08:14:24 AM |
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NZDude wrote:
"gonesailing_gonefishing" <gonesailing_gonefishing@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:1137795679.105232.209150@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
burrah wrote:
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2458/
The Islamic Republic of Iran--under the new government of President
Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad--is engaged in a major anti-homosexual pogrom targeting gays
and
gay sex.
Yeah, yeah, fucking big deal. Tell somebody who cares, you ***** packing
poofter.
What a wonderful expression of tolerance.
If you don't like it, sheep fucker, stiff *****.
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| User: "grumpyoldhori" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
20 Jan 2006 05:15:09 PM |
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NZDude wrote:
What a wonderful expression of tolerance.
K-K-Klown
NZD
Funny that,we have had so called conservatives in NZ calling for
homosexuals to be put to death.
They were of course Christian,one had been high in the police force.
grumpy
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| User: "Harvey Wilson" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
20 Jan 2006 03:40:48 PM |
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burrah wrote:
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2458/
The Islamic Republic of Iran--under the new government of President Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad--is engaged in a major anti-homosexual pogrom targeting gays and
gay sex. This campaign includes Internet entrapment, blackmail to force
arrested gays to inform on others, torture and executions of those found
guilty of engaging in "homosexual acts."
Homosexual acts have been considered a capital crime in Iran since the 1979
revolution that brought the Ayatollah Khomeini to power. Iranians found
guilty of gay lovemaking are given a choice of four death styles: being
hanged, stoned, halved by a sword or dropped from the highest perch.
According to Article 152 of Iran's penal law, if two men not related by
blood are found naked under one cover without good reason, both will be
punished at a judge's discretion.
Iran's crackdown on gays drew worldwide protests (except in the United
States) after the hanging for "homosexual acts" of two teenagers--one 18,
the other believed to be 16 or 17--on July 19 in the city of Mashad. Charges
against the two teens included the alleged rape of another youth. But three
independent gay sources inside Mashad told Afdhere Jama, editor of Huriyah
(an Internet zine for gay Muslims), that the teens were well known in the
city's underground gay community as lovers who lived together, and that the
rape charge was fabricated. The editors of an underground Persian-language
zine in Iran (who requested anonymity out of fear) also confirm that their
own Mashad sources said that the rape charge was trumped up--a view now
generally accepted. In any case, the hangings were illegal under
international law because Iran is a signatory to two treaties that forbid
executing minors. Since then, there have been reports of at least a dozen
more gay victims who have been executed.
"Under Islamic law, which has been adopted by Iran's legal system, it takes
four witnesses to prove an act of homosexuality, which is a capital crime.
That's why it's much easier for the Islamic government to invent other
criminal charges against gay people to get rid of them," Jama told me. The
Iranian gay zine's editors said the same, urging Westerners to be "very
careful" before accepting such criminal charges at face value, as they are
"most likely false."
Amir is a 22-year-old gay Iranian who was arrested by Iran's religious
morality police as part of a massive Internet entrapment campaign targeting
gays. He escaped from Iran in August, and is now in Turkey seeking asylum in
a gay-friendly country. Through a Persian translator, Amir gave me a
terrifying, firsthand account of the anti-gay crackdown.
Amir's first arrest for being gay came when police raided a private party.
"The judge told me, 'If we send you to a physician who vouches that your
rectum has been penetrated in any way, you will be sentenced to death',"
says Amir. He was fined and released for lack of proof that a sexual act had
taken place.
Later, an unrepentant Amir set up a meeting with a man he met through a
Yahoo gay chat room. When his date turned out to be a member of the sex
police, Amir was arrested and taken to Intelligence Ministry headquarters,
"a very scary place," he says. "There I denied that I was gay--but they
showed me a printout from the chat room of my messages and my pictures."
Then, says Amir, the torture began. "There was a metal chair in the middle
of the room--they put a gas flame under the chair and made me sit on it as
the metal seat got hotter and hotter. They threatened to send me to an army
barracks where all the soldiers were going to rape me. The leader told one
of the other officers to take [a soft drink] bottle and shove it up my *****,
screaming, 'This will teach you not to want any more *****!' I was so afraid
of sitting in that metal chair as it got hotter and hotter that I confessed.
Then they brought out my file and told me that I was a 'famous *****' in
Shiraz. They beat me up so badly that I passed out and was thrown,
unconscious, into a holding cell.
"When I came to, I saw there were several dozen other gay guys in the cell
with me. One of them told me that after they had taken him in, they beat him
and forced him to set up dates with people through chat rooms--and each one
of those people had been arrested; those were the other people in that cell
with me."
Eventually tried, Amir was sentenced to 100 lashes. "I passed out before the
100 lashes were over. When I woke up, my arms and legs were so numb that I
fell over when they picked me up from the platform on which I'd been lashed.
They had told me that if I screamed, they would beat me even harder--so I
was biting my arms so hard, to keep from screaming, that I left deep teeth
wounds in my own arms."
After this entrapment and public flogging, Amir's life became unbearable. He
was rousted regularly at his home by the basiji (a para-police made up of
thugs recruited from the criminal classes and the lumpen unemployed) and by
agents of the Office for Promotion of Virtue and Prohibition of Vice, which
represses "moral deviance"--things like boys and girls walking around
holding hands, women not wearing proper Islamic dress and prostitution. Says
Amir, "In one of these arrests, Colonel Javanmardi told me that if they
catch me again that I would be put to death, 'just like the boys in Mashad.'
He said it just like that, very simply, very explicitly. He didn't mince
words. We all know that the boys who were hanged in Mashad were gay--the
rape charges against them were trumped up, just like the charges of theft
and kidnapping against them. When you get arrested, you are forced by
beatings, torture and threats to confess to crimes you didn't commit. It
happens all the time, and has to friends of mine."
Amir's experience is typical--as is the lack of concern evidenced by U.S.
LGBT oganizations. Both of the principal U.S. gay rights
organizations--Human Rights Campaign and the National Gay and Lesbian Task
Force--have failed to incorporate international solidarity with persecuted
gays into their fundraising-driven agendas, and neither have mobilized
public protests against Iran's anti-gay pogrom. Their European counterparts,
in contrast, organized multiple demonstrations at Iranian embassies across
the Continent.
The Persian Gay and Lesbian Organization (PGLO) is the principal group for
Iranian gays, claiming 29,000 on its e-mail list. The PGLO--which publishes
a monthly Internet magazine in Persian, hosts radio netcasts into Iran, and
has secretariats in Turkey and Norway--has appealed to Western gays to
mobilize international protests against the inhumane tragedy that has
befallen Iranian same-sexers. To find out how to help, visit
Just goes to show, even the Muslims get some things right.
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| User: "Digital Spy" |
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| Title: Re: Iran's Anti-Gay Pogrom |
20 Jan 2006 05:18:12 PM |
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how prevalent is aids in Iran then?
maybe they are protecting their people from the diseases (not just aids)
that homosexuals propogate? I cannot understand why heterosexuals
support these people. If you think that they aren't sick then just find
a gay slang dictionary and give it a read.
--
http://conspiracymuse.blogspot.com <-- a paranoid perspective
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