ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY: IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE?



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Topic: Politics > Politics-USA
User: "Bill McGinnis"
Date: 07 Nov 2003 06:17:12 AM
Object: ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY: IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE?
ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY: IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE?
President Bush has now stated clearly that it is his desire and intention
to spread Democracy throughout the Middle East. For the text of his
vision for Democracy, please see
http://patriot.net/users/bmcgin/bushdemocracy.txt
or
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/11/20031106-2.html
Please note his use of the emotional words "Democracy" and "Freedom"
a total of forty-four times, without a definition of either term.
Maybe he thinks that everybody knows what they mean, like he does . . .
The first huge question that arises is this: Is it even possible to have
such a thing as "Islamic Democracy?" Bush thinks that it is
possible. But he seems to be totally ignorant of Islam and thus unaware
of the fundamental contradiction between the Authority Of Allah vs.
the Authority of The Majority. It also seems unlikely that his Israeli
advisors know much about Islam either, so the White House can safely
be presumed to be blissfully ignorant in this regard.
Others, however, are aware of the realities. I am opening this discussion
by reposting an item which clearly states a viewpoint in direct opposition
to the viewpoint expressed by Bush.
The central problem with "Islamic Democracy" appears to be that
Islam denies the major premise of Democracy, which is that all legitimate
political authority resides in the people.
************** BEGIN REPOST **********************
From: Al-Haqq (al_haqq@hotmail.com)
Subject: Islam and the Western Fraud of Democracy
View: Complete Thread (11 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Date: 2002-12-22 11:53:16 PST

In The Name of Allah, The Compassionate, The Merciful
Islam and the Western Fraud of Democracy
In recent years there have been numerous attempts - some funded by
governments of kufr such as Amerika - to get Muslims to accept that
Islam is compatible with democracy, and that Muslims should imitate
the kuffar by establishing democratic governments in their lands.
What is Democracy?
Democracy is that system of government which depends on, or requires,
the establishment of a modern nation State. That is, it depends on the
concept of "nationalism": the division of the world into sovereign
nations with formal boundaries. In addition, it is generally accepted
that the purpose of a democratic country is to ensure the happiness,
and the security, of the "greatest number", with the people assumed,
and expected, to rely on the government of the day to provide these or
at the very least provide conditions where they can flourish.
In democracy, the government is elected by majority vote, and the
government, once elected, is said to be have been given a mandate by
"the people". This mandate allegedly gives that government and its
officials the power the make and enforce laws, and to collect taxes,
as well as to enter into diplomatic relations, and alliances, with
other countries. In addition, the government assumes the right to
declare, on behalf of "the people", war on other countries and expects
- and may legally require - its citizens to fight in such a war.
In reality, in all democratic countries the government is supported by
only by a percentage of the people - who voted for the winning
political party - with those who did not vote, or who did not vote for
that political party, having to accept the rule of that political
party. In some countries, a government may be elected by, and have the
support of, less than half the population.
In democracy, the representatives of the people, who are elected by
vote, seldom - after such an election - consult all or most of the
people they are supposed to represent, and in many instances these
representatives support legislation, and government actions, which
many people (sometimes a majority) do not approve of. In addition,
these representatives are often susceptible (as are governments) to
"lobby and interest groups" and it has become commonplace in most
Western democracies for some representatives to use their power and
influence to enrich themselves. Many people - often a majority -
regard many politicians in democratic countries as an unscrupulous,
corrupt, group of people whose personal conduct often leaves a lot to
be desired.
In democracy, as in most other countries, the Media exert a powerful
influence, often using their power of propaganda to form and sway
people's opinions.
The concept of democracy means an acceptance of the belief that the
majority, or a majority at any one time, know what is right. That is,
what a majority feel or assume or believe to be right, or are
manipulated by politicians and the Media to believe is right - as
manifest by their votes, or their opinions - should be lawful. That
is, it is majority (and often a minority) who posses the right to
legislate, with democratic representatives allegedly acting on their
behalf. In essence, and in theory, in democracy, sovereignty is said
to reside "in, and on behalf of, the people."
In truth, the democracy of modern nation States is a fraud, since the
politicians and governments rarely represent, and seldom consult, the
vast majority of their people, and are increasingly prone to
corruption as well as skilled at manipulating public opinion through
the Media and appealing to the basic, primitive, feelings of people
(which often involved some appeal to "patriotism") in order to fulfil
the agenda of cabals, lobbies and interest groups, and to ensure the
survival of their government and themselves.
Government in Islam:
The basis for government in Islam - as revealed in the Quran and
Sunnah - is Bayah and Khalifah. These stem from the fact that, for
Islam, supreme authority, and sovereignty, resides in Allah (SWT). It
is Allah (SWT) and Allah (SWT) alone who knows what is right and who
can therefore determine what our laws should be. Many of these laws -
which manifest the distinction between right and wrong - are given in
the Quran and Sunnah, just as the Quran and Sunnah are the source, the
only source, for judging issues: for deciding what is right and wrong
in circumstances not mentioned in Quran and Sunnah. A Muslim is a
person who has submitted to Allah (SWT) and who has taken an oath -
the Shahadah - to this effect.
Thus, Islam accepts as an indisputable fact that we human beings,
being fallible and prone to error and misguidance, should not take
upon ourselves the duty of making laws, of determining what is right
and wrong. In addition, in Islam, the final authority in any matter is
the will of Allah (SWT) as manifest in Quran and Sunnah. This is in
complete contrast to democracy where the final authority is "the
people" or a majority of it, or some government official who is said
to be acting on their behalf.
In Islam, the basis for government is bayah: or more correctly, the
bayah contract. This is a contract - determined and manifest by an
oath of allegiance, or loyalty - between the Muslim community, the
Ummah, and their leader, the Khalifah (or Ameer). The content of this
contract is ruling according to Quran and Sunnah and these alone in
order to implement Islam: that is, in order to establish the will of
Allah (SWT) on Earth. This means and implies that Shariah and Shariah
alone is the only type of law allowed, since it is the law of Allah
(SWT).
The important thing for Muslims to understand is that the purpose of
government in Islam - as evident in the bayah contract - is ruling
according to Quran and Sunnah and these alone.
In Islam, the Khalifah, or Ameer, takes a bayah from the Ummah to
govern over them according to Quran and Sunnah. That is, it is the
Muslim community who freely determine who is, or should be, Khalifah,
and provided the Khalifah rules according to Quran and Sunnah then the
Muslim community, having given their oath of loyalty, is honour and
duty bound to obey that Khalifah. However - and there are many clear
evidence for this - if the Khalifah ceases to judge and rule according
to Quran and Sunnah then the Muslims are duty bound - commanded by
Allah (SWT) - to dispose him.
The relationship between the Muslim community and the Khalifah is
determined by Shura, that is, by consultation. This Islamic
consultation is, however, not done by the process of secret voting, in
an election, or otherwise, but rather by directly appealing to the
community, or their leaders (such as Majlis al-Ummah), as well as
through seeking the advice of pious, learned Islamic scholars. The
Khalifah, having consulted the Ummah and the scholars, then makes a
decision.
The Difference Between Islam and Democracy:
The difference between Islam and democracy is simple, and profound.
Government in Islam is bound by, and determined by, Quran and Sunnah
and exists only to implement Islam. An Islamic community, governed
according to Islam, exists to manifest the will of Allah (SWT) and so
prepare the way for individuals to, InshaAllah, achieve Jannah. In
democracy, society exists to manifest the will of the people and to
strive to make them happy and fulfil their material desires in this
life.
In addition, democracy means and implies the nation State whereas, for
Islam, there is only the boundary between Dar al-Islam and Dar
al-Kufr: since all of the Muslims are one community, the concept of
citizenship of one particular sovereign non-Islamic nation is
irrelevant as are the so-called "borders" established by kuffar
governments. A Khilafah - a Muslim community ruled by a Khalifah -
exists to unify Muslims, to protect Muslims from the kuffar, and to
make Islam triumphant in the world.
Thus it is clear that Islam and democracy are incompatible.
May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgive us for our mistakes and may He
guide us to and keep us on the Right Path.
Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala knows best.
Abdul Aziz
******** END REPOST *************************
. . . so. What do you think about this?
Rev. Bill McGinnis

http://DemocraticProcedures.org
http://LoveAllPeople.org
--
Rev. Bill McGinnis


http://LoveAllPeople.org - Teaching And Practicing Love For All People
http://FeaturedProducts.net - Nine Favorite Categories, Some Items Free
.

User: "Reply"

Title: Re: ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY: IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE? 07 Nov 2003 09:13:23 AM
"Bill McGinnis" <bmcgin@adams.patriot.net> wrote in message
news:vqn3a82k4uq520@corp.supernews.com...
|
| ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY: IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE?
|
|
I guess anything is possible even if unlikely. Which verson of Islam? Sunni?
There are very few democracies. I can't name one. I can name a number of
(limited) representational democracies but no true democracies.
A true democracy has been difficult to implement beyond the small city-state
so far. Modern electronics are offering new opportunities that make
democracy more of a possiblility.
The representational democracy is the compromise. It supposedly offers
protection from mob rule and mob whim, enables the people to change rulers
if they so wish, is structured and enables due process to exist. Combined
with law, courts, consitutions and the notions of basic rights it should
enable people to live relatively freely yet securely.
Islam is basically incompatible with political freedom; as is any single one
denomination of Christianity. The problem with any single denomination of a
religion is that anyone who disagrees with it becomes: the devil ! And
therefore oh so worthy to be eliminated - just check out England Queen
Mary-Queen Liz if you want confirmation. There is only 'one truth': what
they say it is! And so on ..
I was surprised to hear the Americans were proposing an 'islamic' democracy
for Iraq. Which version of Islam? Seems strange anway as you have a number
of religious groups in Iraq. The majority of Iraqis are at least, nominally,
of one Islamic one bent or another - sure - but not all Iraqis are Islamic -
I guess those that are not are to be excluded from this 'democracy'. It
should be interesting to see how it plays out.
|In The Name of Allah, The Compassionate, The Merciful
|
|Islam and the Western Fraud of Democracy
|
|In recent years there have been numerous attempts - some funded by
|governments of kufr such as Amerika - to get Muslims to accept that
|Islam is compatible with democracy, and that Muslims should imitate
|the kuffar by establishing democratic governments in their lands.
|
Claptrap, full of holes and non sequitors and a small demonstration of why
Islamic dictatorship would be a sort of ungodly hell on earth.
.

User: "Deborah Sharavi"

Title: Re: ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY: IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE? 07 Nov 2003 01:31:52 PM
Bill McGinnis <bmcgin@adams.patriot.net> wrote in message news:<vqn3a82k4uq520@corp.supernews.com>...

ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY: IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE?

If not impossible, it is at least highly unlikely.
Deborah
.
User: "JGB"

Title: Re: ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY: IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE? 07 Nov 2003 05:04:55 PM
(Deborah Sharavi) wrote in message news:<3cf157c1.0311071131.1f185e89@posting.google.com>...

Bill McGinnis <bmcgin@adams.patriot.net> wrote in message news:<vqn3a82k4uq520@corp.supernews.com>...

ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY: IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE?


If not impossible, it is at least highly unlikely.

Deborah<

Separation of Mosque and State is particularly difficult in Muslim
countries.
.

User: "Dan"

Title: Re: ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY: IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE? 07 Nov 2003 04:37:45 PM
Muslims women vs Christian/Jews sluts.
The Muslim woman's in veil focus is her home, the "nest" where her
children are born and reared. She is the "home" maker, the taproot
that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training
her children,providing refuge and support to her husband.
In contrast, the bikinied Western Christians/Jew sluts practically
naked in front of millions, she belongs to herself. In
practice,paradoxically,she is public property. She belongs to no one
and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is
auctioning herself all of the time.In western Christian/Jew sluts culture,
the cultural measure of a woman's value is her sex appeal
.


User: "Brad"

Title: Re: ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY: OFF TOPIC BILL 07 Nov 2003 11:47:55 AM
OK so you do not love Bush. Go to a democratic news group and rant there.
"Bill McGinnis" <bmcgin@adams.patriot.net> wrote in message
news:vqn3a82k4uq520@corp.supernews.com...


ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY: IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE?


President Bush has now stated clearly that it is his desire and intention
to spread Democracy throughout the Middle East. For the text of his
vision for Democracy, please see

http://patriot.net/users/bmcgin/bushdemocracy.txt

or

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/11/20031106-2.html


Please note his use of the emotional words "Democracy" and "Freedom"
a total of forty-four times, without a definition of either term.
Maybe he thinks that everybody knows what they mean, like he does . . .

The first huge question that arises is this: Is it even possible to have
such a thing as "Islamic Democracy?" Bush thinks that it is
possible. But he seems to be totally ignorant of Islam and thus unaware
of the fundamental contradiction between the Authority Of Allah vs.
the Authority of The Majority. It also seems unlikely that his Israeli
advisors know much about Islam either, so the White House can safely
be presumed to be blissfully ignorant in this regard.

Others, however, are aware of the realities. I am opening this discussion
by reposting an item which clearly states a viewpoint in direct opposition
to the viewpoint expressed by Bush.

The central problem with "Islamic Democracy" appears to be that
Islam denies the major premise of Democracy, which is that all legitimate
political authority resides in the people.

************** BEGIN REPOST **********************

From: Al-Haqq (al_haqq@hotmail.com)
Subject: Islam and the Western Fraud of Democracy
View: Complete Thread (11 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Date: 2002-12-22 11:53:16 PST


In The Name of Allah, The Compassionate, The Merciful



Islam and the Western Fraud of Democracy


In recent years there have been numerous attempts - some funded by
governments of kufr such as Amerika - to get Muslims to accept that
Islam is compatible with democracy, and that Muslims should imitate
the kuffar by establishing democratic governments in their lands.

What is Democracy?

Democracy is that system of government which depends on, or requires,
the establishment of a modern nation State. That is, it depends on the
concept of "nationalism": the division of the world into sovereign
nations with formal boundaries. In addition, it is generally accepted
that the purpose of a democratic country is to ensure the happiness,
and the security, of the "greatest number", with the people assumed,
and expected, to rely on the government of the day to provide these or
at the very least provide conditions where they can flourish.

In democracy, the government is elected by majority vote, and the
government, once elected, is said to be have been given a mandate by
"the people". This mandate allegedly gives that government and its
officials the power the make and enforce laws, and to collect taxes,
as well as to enter into diplomatic relations, and alliances, with
other countries. In addition, the government assumes the right to
declare, on behalf of "the people", war on other countries and expects
- and may legally require - its citizens to fight in such a war.


In reality, in all democratic countries the government is supported by
only by a percentage of the people - who voted for the winning
political party - with those who did not vote, or who did not vote for
that political party, having to accept the rule of that political
party. In some countries, a government may be elected by, and have the
support of, less than half the population.

In democracy, the representatives of the people, who are elected by
vote, seldom - after such an election - consult all or most of the
people they are supposed to represent, and in many instances these
representatives support legislation, and government actions, which
many people (sometimes a majority) do not approve of. In addition,
these representatives are often susceptible (as are governments) to
"lobby and interest groups" and it has become commonplace in most
Western democracies for some representatives to use their power and
influence to enrich themselves. Many people - often a majority -
regard many politicians in democratic countries as an unscrupulous,
corrupt, group of people whose personal conduct often leaves a lot to
be desired.

In democracy, as in most other countries, the Media exert a powerful
influence, often using their power of propaganda to form and sway
people's opinions.


The concept of democracy means an acceptance of the belief that the
majority, or a majority at any one time, know what is right. That is,
what a majority feel or assume or believe to be right, or are
manipulated by politicians and the Media to believe is right - as
manifest by their votes, or their opinions - should be lawful. That
is, it is majority (and often a minority) who posses the right to
legislate, with democratic representatives allegedly acting on their
behalf. In essence, and in theory, in democracy, sovereignty is said
to reside "in, and on behalf of, the people."


In truth, the democracy of modern nation States is a fraud, since the
politicians and governments rarely represent, and seldom consult, the
vast majority of their people, and are increasingly prone to
corruption as well as skilled at manipulating public opinion through
the Media and appealing to the basic, primitive, feelings of people
(which often involved some appeal to "patriotism") in order to fulfil
the agenda of cabals, lobbies and interest groups, and to ensure the
survival of their government and themselves.


Government in Islam:


The basis for government in Islam - as revealed in the Quran and
Sunnah - is Bayah and Khalifah. These stem from the fact that, for
Islam, supreme authority, and sovereignty, resides in Allah (SWT). It
is Allah (SWT) and Allah (SWT) alone who knows what is right and who
can therefore determine what our laws should be. Many of these laws -
which manifest the distinction between right and wrong - are given in
the Quran and Sunnah, just as the Quran and Sunnah are the source, the
only source, for judging issues: for deciding what is right and wrong
in circumstances not mentioned in Quran and Sunnah. A Muslim is a
person who has submitted to Allah (SWT) and who has taken an oath -
the Shahadah - to this effect.

Thus, Islam accepts as an indisputable fact that we human beings,
being fallible and prone to error and misguidance, should not take
upon ourselves the duty of making laws, of determining what is right
and wrong. In addition, in Islam, the final authority in any matter is
the will of Allah (SWT) as manifest in Quran and Sunnah. This is in
complete contrast to democracy where the final authority is "the
people" or a majority of it, or some government official who is said
to be acting on their behalf.

In Islam, the basis for government is bayah: or more correctly, the
bayah contract. This is a contract - determined and manifest by an
oath of allegiance, or loyalty - between the Muslim community, the
Ummah, and their leader, the Khalifah (or Ameer). The content of this
contract is ruling according to Quran and Sunnah and these alone in
order to implement Islam: that is, in order to establish the will of
Allah (SWT) on Earth. This means and implies that Shariah and Shariah
alone is the only type of law allowed, since it is the law of Allah
(SWT).

The important thing for Muslims to understand is that the purpose of
government in Islam - as evident in the bayah contract - is ruling
according to Quran and Sunnah and these alone.

In Islam, the Khalifah, or Ameer, takes a bayah from the Ummah to
govern over them according to Quran and Sunnah. That is, it is the
Muslim community who freely determine who is, or should be, Khalifah,
and provided the Khalifah rules according to Quran and Sunnah then the
Muslim community, having given their oath of loyalty, is honour and
duty bound to obey that Khalifah. However - and there are many clear
evidence for this - if the Khalifah ceases to judge and rule according
to Quran and Sunnah then the Muslims are duty bound - commanded by
Allah (SWT) - to dispose him.

The relationship between the Muslim community and the Khalifah is
determined by Shura, that is, by consultation. This Islamic
consultation is, however, not done by the process of secret voting, in
an election, or otherwise, but rather by directly appealing to the
community, or their leaders (such as Majlis al-Ummah), as well as
through seeking the advice of pious, learned Islamic scholars. The
Khalifah, having consulted the Ummah and the scholars, then makes a
decision.


The Difference Between Islam and Democracy:

The difference between Islam and democracy is simple, and profound.
Government in Islam is bound by, and determined by, Quran and Sunnah
and exists only to implement Islam. An Islamic community, governed
according to Islam, exists to manifest the will of Allah (SWT) and so
prepare the way for individuals to, InshaAllah, achieve Jannah. In
democracy, society exists to manifest the will of the people and to
strive to make them happy and fulfil their material desires in this
life.

In addition, democracy means and implies the nation State whereas, for
Islam, there is only the boundary between Dar al-Islam and Dar
al-Kufr: since all of the Muslims are one community, the concept of
citizenship of one particular sovereign non-Islamic nation is
irrelevant as are the so-called "borders" established by kuffar
governments. A Khilafah - a Muslim community ruled by a Khalifah -
exists to unify Muslims, to protect Muslims from the kuffar, and to
make Islam triumphant in the world.


Thus it is clear that Islam and democracy are incompatible.



May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgive us for our mistakes and may He
guide us to and keep us on the Right Path.


Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala knows best.

Abdul Aziz

******** END REPOST *************************


. . . so. What do you think about this?

Rev. Bill McGinnis


http://DemocraticProcedures.org
http://LoveAllPeople.org


--
Rev. Bill McGinnis


http://LoveAllPeople.org - Teaching And Practicing Love For All People
http://FeaturedProducts.net - Nine Favorite Categories, Some Items Free

.


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