| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
01 Sep 2007 09:49:54 AM |
| Object: |
John Edwards tells Americans to give up gas-guzzlers |
source: http://tinyurl.com/3x2w45
The Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards took a huge
political gamble this week. He told an audience of unionists in
Florida that they needed to make a big sacrifice: give up their four-
wheel-drives in the interests of combating greenhouse gas emissions.
"I think Americans are actually willing to sacrifice," Edwards said
during a forum held by the International Association of Machinists and
Aerospace Workers. "One of the things they should be asked to do is
drive more fuel-efficient vehicles." Asked whether he meant give up
their sports utility vehicles, or SUVs, the forthright North Carolina
senator replied: "Yes." Edwards had better hope he has read the
American psyche correctly. The statistics suggest he is dead wrong.
Asking Australians to give up four-wheel-drives would be contentious.
In the United States it could be political suicide.
In the US, cars - and big cars - are deeply ingrained in the
lifestyle. This is the home of the road movie, where an entire two
hours can be filled with a tale of crossing wide open spaces. People
in American cities think nothing of a two-hour drive each way to work
as their cities continue to expand.
In summer, empty-nesters take to the roads in droves, either living
out parts of the Easy Rider dream on a fully equipped Harley-Davidson
or a Honda Goldwing, complete with matching trailer, cup holders,
intercom system and heated leather seats. Or they might take an RV, or
recreational vehicle. Australians might like their campervans or
caravans, but they are Matchbox toys compared with the American
recreational vehicle.
The Recreational Vehicle Industry Association says there were 18
million of these vehicles on the road during the American summer. The
average cost of one of these homes away from home - yes, average - is
$US260,000 ($320,000).
Many are the size of a bus and offer all the luxuries of home, from
air-conditioning to television to dishwashers to broadband access. It
is not unusual to see a boat, a small car or even a small SUV attached
to a towbar.
Despite rising petrol prices and increasing awareness of the danger
posed by climate change, sales of large gas-guzzling vehicles are up
in the US, after an initial dip in 2004 and 2005, when petrol prices
spiked.
Sales of RVs have jumped 22 per cent in the past three years. Last
year, the industry sold 390,500, the highest sales in 28 years. Sales
of SUVs are also up. After a two-year slump, sales of these beasts,
especially the behemoth models, have skyrocketed.
The numbers for large SUVs rose nearly 6 per cent in the first quarter
of this year, and April figures were up 25 per cent from April last
year, according to vehicle manufacturers' statistics provided by
Edmunds.com, an automotive research website.
Filling these machines costs more than $US120. In the city they do 13
to 14 miles a gallon (16-18 litres per 100 kilometres) with slightly
better results on the open road.
Sales of Prius, the hybrid electric-petrol sedan from Toyota, are up
too, particularly on the west coast and in the east coast cities,
where the climate change message is resonating. But in the US
heartland it seems SUVs could be almost as sacrosanct as guns.
The difficulties for the US in curbing its use of fuel are reflected
throughout US politics.
Just before it went on its summer break, the US House of
Representatives passed a wide-ranging energy bill that will require
most utilities to produce 15 per cent of their electricity from
renewable sources such as wind and solar power. It also includes new
requirements for energy efficiency in appliances and government
buildings and billions of dollars in incentives for production of
alternative fuels and new research on capturing carbon emissions.
The bill outlaws the sale of 100-watt incandescent light bulbs by 2012
and requires that all bulbs be three times more efficient than today's
ordinary bulbs by 2020. And without saying how it will be done, it
says the US Government must become carbon neutral by 2050.
But an important provision - energy efficiency standards for cars -
was quietly dropped from the bill at the last minute. It had been
originally planned for a requirement of 35 miles per gallon (or 6.7
litres per 100 kilometres) by 2020.
By way of comparison, the Australian Government has an agreement with
the car industry that involves a target of reducing the average fuel
consumption of new cars sold in Australia from 8.43 litres per 100
kilometres to 6.8 litres per 100 kilometres by 2010. The current
Holden Commodore model uses 11 litres per 100 kilometres.
Greenpeace's energy policy specialist in the US, John Coequyt, says
the deletion was the work of a powerful senior Democrat, John Dingell,
the chairman of the House energy committee and a congressman from
Detroit, home of America's car industry. Dingell is married to Debbie
Insley, a grand-daughter of General Motors' Fisher brothers who is an
executive at GM.
To proceed the energy bill now has to be altered to match the Senate
version of the bill, which includes the 2020 fuel efficiency standard.
But environmental activists admit they face a battle to get the fuel
efficiency standards reinstated.
"The Speaker, Nancy Pelosi, says she wants an energy efficiency
standard and she's going to have to show leadership to get one,"
Coequyt says.
That process will occur in September and October, around the time that
the President, George Bush, is getting ready to host a meeting of the
15 largest polluting nations. After that, the next hurdle the bill
faces is a possible presidential veto. Bush has already indicated that
he is contemplating such a move because he is unhappy with aspects of
the bill that repeal $US16 billion in tax breaks for the oil industry
enacted in 2005. The money has been diverted into research grants and
renewable fuel projects.
Whether he makes good on his threat remains to be seen, since public
awareness of the urgency of global warming, while not as high as in
Australia, is now a mainstream issue both in the presidential campaign
and among community groups as diverse as Al Gore's climate change
coalition, Christian groups and AARP, the leading lobby group for
seniors in the US.
Meanwhile, 13 states have gone it alone on energy efficiency standards
for cars, following the lead of California, which mandates a 22 per
cent cut in vehicle emissions by 2012 and 30 per cent cut by 2016. The
latest state is Florida, which announced a greenhouse strategy last
month.
Florida's Republican Governor, Charlie Crist, has read the mood in the
state, which was battered by hurricanes again this summer, and taken a
leaf out of the book of the California Governor, Arnold
Schwarzenegger.
Given that the 13 states represent so much of the national car market,
the states could well force American car makers to adopt the
California standard as the de facto national standard because there
would be little point in producing models that could not be sold in
the stricter states. So that is why the battle has moved to the
Supreme Court.
In April the court ruled 5-4 that the Environmental Protection Agency
violated the Clean Air Act by improperly declining to regulate new-
vehicle emissions standards to control the pollutants that scientists
say contribute to global warming. The ruling lent weight to
California's efforts to regulate emissions, the state's Attorney-
General, Jerry Brown, said at the time. The agency's standard could
emerge soon.
At the same time, the car industry has challenged California's right
to impose standards and it is expected to be heard by the Supreme
Court soon.
Meanwhile, on the global stage, Bush and the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-
operation forum nations meeting in Sydney next week will discuss
climate change in the post-Kyoto world.
Bush unveiled his preferred approach just before he attended the G8
summit in Germany in June. He has rejected the European approach of
strictly mandating targets for the reduction of greenhouse gas outputs
and instead has proposed an overall goal, with each nation then
offering a mid-term plan to achieve that goal. He is still opposed to
an international carbon trading scheme.
Bush's bottom line is that the post-Kyoto framework must include the
rapidly growing economies of India and China, because without them the
progress made by Western nations in reducing their emissions will be
negated by the projected huge increases in emissions from these
nations.
The US's senior climate change negotiator, Dr Harlan Watson, said in
July: "The President believes that by encouraging and sharing cutting-
edge technologies, the major economies will build the capacity to meet
realistic reduction goals."
The discussion at APEC is expected to focus strongly on energy
security and technology. Bush's approach is very heavily skewed to
investment in measures that will either increase energy efficiency or
store carbon dioxide.
For example, billions of dollars have been earmarked for subsidising
ethanol production from corn, and Bush is expected to discuss with the
Prime Minister, John Howard, his hopes of involving Australia in
research on producing ethanol from wild grasses, in order to meet the
target of 20 per cent of its fuel need from ethanol in 10 years. But
whether the US can grapple with the other side of the equation -
curbing its appetite for petrol and using it more efficiently -
remains to be seen.
.
|
|
| User: "Frogwatch" |
|
| Title: Re: John Edwards tells Americans to give up gas-guzzlers |
01 Sep 2007 01:44:28 PM |
|
|
On Sep 1, 10:49 am, "simple_langu...@yahoo.com"
<simple_langu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
source:http://tinyurl.com/3x2w45
The Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards took a huge
political gamble this week. He told an audience of unionists in
Florida that they needed to make a big sacrifice: give up their four-
wheel-drives in the interests of combating greenhouse gas emissions.
"I think Americans are actually willing to sacrifice," Edwards said
during a forum held by the International Association of Machinists and
Aerospace Workers. "One of the things they should be asked to do is
drive more fuel-efficient vehicles." Asked whether he meant give up
their sports utility vehicles, or SUVs, the forthright North Carolina
senator replied: "Yes." Edwards had better hope he has read the
American psyche correctly. The statistics suggest he is dead wrong.
Asking Australians to give up four-wheel-drives would be contentious.
In the United States it could be political suicide.
In the US, cars - and big cars - are deeply ingrained in the
lifestyle. This is the home of the road movie, where an entire two
hours can be filled with a tale of crossing wide open spaces. People
in American cities think nothing of a two-hour drive each way to work
as their cities continue to expand.
In summer, empty-nesters take to the roads in droves, either living
out parts of the Easy Rider dream on a fully equipped Harley-Davidson
or a Honda Goldwing, complete with matching trailer, cup holders,
intercom system and heated leather seats. Or they might take an RV, or
recreational vehicle. Australians might like their campervans or
caravans, but they are Matchbox toys compared with the American
recreational vehicle.
The Recreational Vehicle Industry Association says there were 18
million of these vehicles on the road during the American summer. The
average cost of one of these homes away from home - yes, average - is
$US260,000 ($320,000).
Many are the size of a bus and offer all the luxuries of home, from
air-conditioning to television to dishwashers to broadband access. It
is not unusual to see a boat, a small car or even a small SUV attached
to a towbar.
Despite rising petrol prices and increasing awareness of the danger
posed by climate change, sales of large gas-guzzling vehicles are up
in the US, after an initial dip in 2004 and 2005, when petrol prices
spiked.
Sales of RVs have jumped 22 per cent in the past three years. Last
year, the industry sold 390,500, the highest sales in 28 years. Sales
of SUVs are also up. After a two-year slump, sales of these beasts,
especially the behemoth models, have skyrocketed.
The numbers for large SUVs rose nearly 6 per cent in the first quarter
of this year, and April figures were up 25 per cent from April last
year, according to vehicle manufacturers' statistics provided by
Edmunds.com, an automotive research website.
Filling these machines costs more than $US120. In the city they do 13
to 14 miles a gallon (16-18 litres per 100 kilometres) with slightly
better results on the open road.
Sales of Prius, the hybrid electric-petrol sedan from Toyota, are up
too, particularly on the west coast and in the east coast cities,
where the climate change message is resonating. But in the US
heartland it seems SUVs could be almost as sacrosanct as guns.
The difficulties for the US in curbing its use of fuel are reflected
throughout US politics.
Just before it went on its summer break, the US House of
Representatives passed a wide-ranging energy bill that will require
most utilities to produce 15 per cent of their electricity from
renewable sources such as wind and solar power. It also includes new
requirements for energy efficiency in appliances and government
buildings and billions of dollars in incentives for production of
alternative fuels and new research on capturing carbon emissions.
The bill outlaws the sale of 100-watt incandescent light bulbs by 2012
and requires that all bulbs be three times more efficient than today's
ordinary bulbs by 2020. And without saying how it will be done, it
says the US Government must become carbon neutral by 2050.
But an important provision - energy efficiency standards for cars -
was quietly dropped from the bill at the last minute. It had been
originally planned for a requirement of 35 miles per gallon (or 6.7
litres per 100 kilometres) by 2020.
By way of comparison, the Australian Government has an agreement with
the car industry that involves a target of reducing the average fuel
consumption of new cars sold in Australia from 8.43 litres per 100
kilometres to 6.8 litres per 100 kilometres by 2010. The current
Holden Commodore model uses 11 litres per 100 kilometres.
Greenpeace's energy policy specialist in the US, John Coequyt, says
the deletion was the work of a powerful senior Democrat, John Dingell,
the chairman of the House energy committee and a congressman from
Detroit, home of America's car industry. Dingell is married to Debbie
Insley, a grand-daughter of General Motors' Fisher brothers who is an
executive at GM.
To proceed the energy bill now has to be altered to match the Senate
version of the bill, which includes the 2020 fuel efficiency standard.
But environmental activists admit they face a battle to get the fuel
efficiency standards reinstated.
"The Speaker, Nancy Pelosi, says she wants an energy efficiency
standard and she's going to have to show leadership to get one,"
Coequyt says.
That process will occur in September and October, around the time that
the President, George Bush, is getting ready to host a meeting of the
15 largest polluting nations. After that, the next hurdle the bill
faces is a possible presidential veto. Bush has already indicated that
he is contemplating such a move because he is unhappy with aspects of
the bill that repeal $US16 billion in tax breaks for the oil industry
enacted in 2005. The money has been diverted into research grants and
renewable fuel projects.
Whether he makes good on his threat remains to be seen, since public
awareness of the urgency of global warming, while not as high as in
Australia, is now a mainstream issue both in the presidential campaign
and among community groups as diverse as Al Gore's climate change
coalition, Christian groups and AARP, the leading lobby group for
seniors in the US.
Meanwhile, 13 states have gone it alone on energy efficiency standards
for cars, following the lead of California, which mandates a 22 per
cent cut in vehicle emissions by 2012 and 30 per cent cut by 2016. The
latest state is Florida, which announced a greenhouse strategy last
month.
Florida's Republican Governor, Charlie Crist, has read the mood in the
state, which was battered by hurricanes again this summer, and taken a
leaf out of the book of the California Governor, Arnold
Schwarzenegger.
Given that the 13 states represent so much of the national car market,
the states could well force American car makers to adopt the
California standard as the de facto national standard because there
would be little point in producing models that could not be sold in
the stricter states. So that is why the battle has moved to the
Supreme Court.
In April the court ruled 5-4 that the Environmental Protection Agency
violated the Clean Air Act by improperly declining to regulate new-
vehicle emissions standards to control the pollutants that scientists
say contribute to global warming. The ruling lent weight to
California's efforts to regulate emissions, the state's Attorney-
General, Jerry Brown, said at the time. The agency's standard could
emerge soon.
At the same time, the car industry has challenged California's right
to impose standards and it is expected to be heard by the Supreme
Court soon.
Meanwhile, on the global stage, Bush and the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-
operation forum nations meeting in Sydney next week will discuss
climate change in the post-Kyoto world.
Bush unveiled his preferred approach just before he attended the G8
summit in Germany in June. He has rejected the European approach of
strictly mandating targets for the reduction of greenhouse gas outputs
and instead has proposed an overall goal, with each nation then
offering a mid-term plan to achieve that goal. He is still opposed to
an international carbon trading scheme.
Bush's bottom line is that the post-Kyoto framework must include the
rapidly growing economies of India and China, because without them the
progress made by Western nations in reducing their emissions will be
negated by the projected huge increases in emissions from these
nations.
The US's senior climate change negotiator, Dr Harlan Watson, said in
July: "The President believes that by encouraging and sharing cutting-
edge technologies, the major economies will build the capacity to meet
realistic reduction goals."
The discussion at APEC is expected to focus strongly on energy
security and technology. Bush's approach is very heavily skewed to
investment in measures that will either increase energy efficiency or
store carbon dioxide.
For example, billions of dollars have been earmarked for subsidising
ethanol production from corn, and Bush is expected to discuss with the
Prime Minister, John Howard, his hopes of involving Australia in
research on producing ethanol from wild grasses, in order to meet the
target of 20 per cent of its fuel need from ethanol in 10 years. But
whether the US can grapple with the other side of the equation -
curbing its appetite for petrol and using it more efficiently -
remains to be seen.
A recent pic of Edwards huge energy guzzling mansion showed at least 6
SUVs parked there. So its another case of the little guys have to
save while the liberals get to drive around in gas guzzlers and use
their private jets? The article says that Florida was "battered buy
hurricanes this summer". Huh, what hurricanes? We havent had any.
This article is pure propoganda.
.
|
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| User: "HangEveryRepubliKKKan" |
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| Title: Re: John Edwards tells Americans to give up gas-guzzlers |
07 Oct 2007 04:28:52 PM |
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|
"Frogwatch" <dbohara@mindspring.com> wrote
A recent pic of Edwards huge energy guzzling mansion showed at least 6
SUVs parked there.
How many belonged to his security guards?
You know the guys who protect him from KKKonservatives who continually
threaten to murder him.
.
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| User: "Talk-n-Dog" |
|
| Title: Re: John Edwards tells Americans to>>(become a couch potato)giveup gas-guzzlers |
01 Sep 2007 02:14:24 PM |
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Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 1, 10:49 am, "simple_langu...@yahoo.com"
<simple_langu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
source:http://tinyurl.com/3x2w45
The Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards took a huge
political gamble this week. He told an audience of unionists in
Florida that they needed to make a big sacrifice: give up their four-
wheel-drives in the interests of combating greenhouse gas emissions.
"I think Americans are actually willing to sacrifice," Edwards said
during a forum held by the International Association of Machinists and
Aerospace Workers. "One of the things they should be asked to do is
drive more fuel-efficient vehicles." Asked whether he meant give up
their sports utility vehicles, or SUVs, the forthright North Carolina
senator replied: "Yes." Edwards had better hope he has read the
American psyche correctly. The statistics suggest he is dead wrong.
We can't all be Chiefs, there have to be Indians too. So he has decided
being a self proclaimed chief that he is, that you Indians can do
without while he continues to live the AMERICAN dream.
Just why are we all going to show up at our menial jobs now that we
can't achieve anything. We all get to economize, just what I wanted. I
went to bed dreaming of hybrid cars and turning off my air conditioner.
Instead of a better life, it seems we are supposed to want a stoic life.
As soon as The guy with the $750 hair cuts gives up all his worldly
assets and starts baking bread at a Monastery, I'll start listening to
his opinions(but with a mountain of salt, not a grain).
Ignorant morons know, the surest way to kill capitalism is to shut down
the hopes and ability to enjoy a better life and the fruits of our labor.
--
http://OutSourcedNews.com
Our constitution protects criminals, drunks and U.S. Senators. Which at
times are, one and the same...
The problem with the global warming theory, is that a theory is like a
bowl of ice-cream, it only takes a little dab of ***** to ruin the
whole thing. - Gump That -
.
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| User: "HangEveryRepubliKKKan" |
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| Title: Re: John Edwards tells Americans to>>(become a couch potato)give up gas-guzzlers |
17 Oct 2007 11:02:52 PM |
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"Talk-n-Dog" <WatchDog@talk-n-dog.com> wrote
Ignorant morons know, the surest way to kill capitalism is to shut down
the hopes and ability to enjoy a better life and the fruits of our labor.
One of the most grand economic delusions is the idea that growth in
consumption can continue. The most grand economic delusion is that it can
continue at exponentially increasing rates.
.
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| User: "Roger Coppock" |
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| Title: Re: John Edwards tells Americans to give up gas-guzzlers |
01 Sep 2007 04:54:52 PM |
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|
On Sep 1, 11:44 am, Frogwatch <dboh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
[ . . . ]
A recent pic of Edwards huge energy guzzling mansion showed at least 6
SUVs parked there. [ . . . ]
So, you got the message from headquarters then.
Those who tell us what to think say that
we're all supposed to hate Edwards now.
.
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| User: "Bill Ward" |
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| Title: Roger still running away from his lies. What else is new? |
01 Sep 2007 06:08:13 PM |
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|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 14:54:52 -0700, Roger Coppock wrote:
<snip>
Roger has no credibility or integrity. Roger is still trying to run and
hide from the following intentional lies he posted:
Roger's initial claim is here:
Message-ID:
<1188312981.668472.200910@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
Downthread you'll find in:
<pan.2007.08.29.04.03.40.64379@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com>
<begin repost>
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:13:24 -0700, Roger Coppock wrote:
On Aug 28, 4:49 pm, Bill Ward <bw...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:00:31 -0700, Roger Coppock wrote:
On Aug 28, 2:29 pm, Bill Ward <bw...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 07:56:21 -0700, Roger Coppock wrote:
[ . . . ]
The energy non-equilibrium, 0,85+0.15 W/m^2 more in than out, and
response time, ~50 years, are both measured quantities, Rheims of
calculations will not change the measurements. PLease see:
Hansen, J. et al. 2005b Earth's energy imbalance: confirmation and
implications. Science 308, 1431-1435.
(doi:10.1126/science.1110252)
http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2005/2005_Hansen_etal_1.pdf>
It's from a model, not directly measured.
NOPE! You're just plain wrong.
First three words of the abstract are, "Our climate model".
It pays to read beyond the first three words, Bill. It will keep the
egg of your face.
Of course I did, Roger. Exactly where does it say the energy was
directly measured? Some ocean temperatures were sampled, and an energy
estimate was made using models. In fact he specifically mentions "an
artifact of incomplete sampling" at the top of the second column of
page 2.
The egg is all yours. Enjoy.
Spin, spin, spin! Spin and dance.
Spin all you want. You didn't read the paper and now you look like a
fool.
Either point out exactly where the paper says the energy was directly
measured, or admit you're the one that's "just plain wrong".
No extra credit for dancing.
<end repost>
Then he writes:
<1188439015.854642.299920@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>
<begin repost>
Poor, poor Bill.
He lost a debate and now he's going to troll this newsgroup endlessly
posting a fictional transcript he's written. <end repost>
Roger, not reading the paper you linked to is perhaps excusable. Lying
about a "fictional transcript", which is publicly archived, is excusable
only if you can show a mental condition in which you are not responsible
for your actions. If that's the case, any credibility you may have had is
gone.
So which is it, Roger, lack of honor, or lack of mental responsibility?
You know what you did. You can't hide from yourself.
I can be quite patient if necessary. You are not getting away with it
this time.
.
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| User: "HangEveryRepubliKKKan" |
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| Title: Re: Roger still running away from his lies. What else is new? |
07 Oct 2007 03:57:10 PM |
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"Bill Ward" <bward@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote
Roger has no credibility or integrity. Roger is still trying to run and
hide from the following intentional lies he posted:
You don't seem to be able to find any "lie" told by Roger...
Why not?
.
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| User: "john fernbach" |
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| Title: Re: Roger still running away from his lies. What else is new? |
07 Oct 2007 04:56:28 PM |
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|
Bill - You're trying to shift the subject away from John Edwards and
the remark about SUVs as gas-guzzlers, it looks like.
However, I did look at the links you posted concerning Roger Coppock's
alleged lie.
And I am shocked, shocked that he may be misstated what some paper
that both of you were quoting from actually said.
I don't quite understand how he misstated it, actually, and it seems
pretty technical and complicated at first glance, but there does seem
to be a possibility that Coppock may have gotten something wrong in
the middle of an argument with you.
Do you believe in the death penalty for cases like this, Bill?
At the very least, are you planning to sue Coppock for defamation of
character?
And I know that this has been outlawed by now in the US - but what
about the two of you meeting at dawn with dueling pistols?
Since we're apparently dedicated to avoiding any discussion of the
John Edwards remark about the environmental idiocy of American SUV
production, now could be a great time to resolve this matter of you
versus Roger once and for all, Bill.
I don't know if Roger would accept an invitation to a pistol duel,
however.
Have you asked him?
On Sep 1, 7:08 pm, Bill Ward <bw...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 14:54:52 -0700, Roger Coppock wrote:
<snip>
Roger has no credibility or integrity. Roger is still trying to run and
hide from the following intentional lies he posted:
Roger's initial claim is here:
Message-ID:
<1188312981.668472.200...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
Downthread you'll find in:
<pan.2007.08.29.04.03.40.64...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com>
<begin repost>
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:13:24 -0700, Roger Coppock wrote:
On Aug 28, 4:49 pm, Bill Ward <bw...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:00:31 -0700, Roger Coppock wrote:
On Aug 28, 2:29 pm, Bill Ward <bw...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 07:56:21 -0700, Roger Coppock wrote:
[ . . . ]
The energy non-equilibrium, 0,85+0.15 W/m^2 more in than out, and
response time, ~50 years, are both measured quantities, Rheims of
calculations will not change the measurements. PLease see:
Hansen, J. et al. 2005b Earth's energy imbalance: confirmation and
implications. Science 308, 1431-1435.
(doi:10.1126/science.1110252)
http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2005/2005_Hansen_etal_1.pdf>
It's from a model, not directly measured.
NOPE! You're just plain wrong.
First three words of the abstract are, "Our climate model".
It pays to read beyond the first three words, Bill. It will keep the
egg of your face.
Of course I did, Roger. Exactly where does it say the energy was
directly measured? Some ocean temperatures were sampled, and an energy
estimate was made using models. In fact he specifically mentions "an
artifact of incomplete sampling" at the top of the second column of
page 2.
The egg is all yours. Enjoy.
Spin, spin, spin! Spin and dance.
Spin all you want. You didn't read the paper and now you look like a
fool.
Either point out exactly where the paper says the energy was directly
measured, or admit you're the one that's "just plain wrong".
No extra credit for dancing.
<end repost>
Then he writes:
<1188439015.854642.299...@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>
<begin repost>
Poor, poor Bill.
He lost a debate and now he's going to troll this newsgroup endlessly
posting a fictional transcript he's written. <end repost>
Roger, not reading the paper you linked to is perhaps excusable. Lying
about a "fictional transcript", which is publicly archived, is excusable
only if you can show a mental condition in which you are not responsible
for your actions. If that's the case, any credibility you may have had is
gone.
So which is it, Roger, lack of honor, or lack of mental responsibility?
You know what you did. You can't hide from yourself.
I can be quite patient if necessary. You are not getting away with it
this time.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "HangEveryRepubliKKKan" |
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| Title: Re: Roger still running away from his lies. What else is new? |
07 Oct 2007 05:16:56 PM |
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"john fernbach" <fernbach1948@yahoo.com> wrote
Bill - You're trying to shift the subject away from John Edwards and
the remark about SUVs as gas-guzzlers, it looks like.
How many belonged to the Secret Service?
Yawn....
Hillary Clinton Promises Science-Friendly White House Robert Roy Britt
LiveScience Managing Editor
LiveScience.com
Thu Oct 4, 4:20 PM ET
Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton today accused the Bush Administration
of conducting a "war on science" and vowed to promote scientific discovery
in research, medicine and space exploration if elected.
"For six and half years under this president, it's been open season on open
inquiry," Clinton said in a wide-ranging science and technology position
paper. "And by ignoring or manipulating science, the Bush administration is
letting our economic competitors get an edge in the global economy."
Firmly pushing one hot button in particular, Clinton promised to sign an
Executive Order that would rescind President Bush's ban on federal funding
for new lines of embryonic stem cells used in research.
Among other promises:
Establish a $50 billion Strategic Energy Fund to invest in technologies to
promote conservation, combat global warming and reduce dependence on foreign
oil.
Speed the development of a vehicle to replace the aging space shuttle fleet,
and "fully fund NASA's Earth Sciences program and initiate a Space-based
Climate Change Initiative" to better study global warming.
Increase the budget of the National Institutes of Health by 50 percent over
5 years.
Direct all federal department and agency heads to safeguard against
political pressure on scientific issues.
Re-establish the position of Assistant to the President for Science and
Technology.
Ban political appointees from unduly interfering with scientific conclusions
and publications.
President Bush has been routinely criticized by environmental groups, and
even industry leaders, for being slow to accept the scientific consensus
that global warming is real and at least partly caused by human activity.
His administration has also been accused by scientists of stifling research.
The competition
Several other leading candidates have posted somewhat less lengthy position
statements on their Web sites regarding energy policy and health care.
Democratic Sen. Joe Biden sets specific numeric goals, such as reducing
greenhouse gas emissions to 80 percent below 1990 levels by 2050 by imposing
a cap and trade system, and he would "require that at least 20 percent of
the country's electricity comes from clean, renewable sources."
Democrat John Edwards has a detailed platform for on "innovation," promising
to "increase spending on basic research at the National Science Foundation
and National Institutes of Health and lift stifling research restrictions."
He would also "create the New Energy Economy Fund to invest in clean,
renewable energies."
Edwards also would work to depoliticize science and "eliminate political
litmus tests for government scientists" and prohibit political appointees
from overriding agencies' scientific findings "unless the chief White House
science advisor concludes they are erroneous."
Democratic Sen. Barack Obama calls for a "new national energy policy focused
on improvements in technology, investments in renewable fuels" but does not
get specific.
Republican candidate Mitt Romney: "In technology, we as a country already
invest an enormous amount-for instance, in defense technology, space
technology, health-but we also need to invest in some of the emerging
technologies that are important at a basic science level such as fuel cell
technology, power generation, materials science, automotive technology."
Sputnik connection
Clinton's statement was released purposely on the 50th anniversary of the
Soviet launch of Sputnik, the first space satellite, which spurred a
revolution in American innovation.
Clinton aims for a space exploration program "that involves robust human
spaceflight to complete the Space Station and later human missions, expanded
robotic spaceflight probes of our solar system leading to future human
exploration" by, in part, capitalizing on the expertise of the shuttle
program workforce and preventing the sort of "brain drain" she says occurred
between the Apollo era and shuttle missions.
"I believe we have to change course-and I know America is ready," Clinton
said. "What America achieved after Sputnik is a symbol of what America can
do now as we confront a new global economy, new environmental challenges,
and the promise of new discoveries in medicine. America led in the 20th
century-and with new policies and a renewed commitment to scientific
integrity and innovation, America is ready to lead in the 21st."
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| User: "raylopez99" |
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| Title: Re: Roger still running away from his lies. What else is new? |
02 Sep 2007 02:29:40 PM |
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On Sep 1, 4:08 pm, Bill Ward <bw...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 14:54:52 -0700, Roger Coppock wrote:
<snip>
Bill, guess you figured out Roger likes to move the goalposts? That's
why he's entertaining. That's also one reason I gave up debating
Roger.
I gave up reading this newsgroup when I concluded there's nothing to
learn here.
Insofar as gas guzzlers go, I think PETA once calculated eating meat
is more CO2 intensive than owning an SUV.
Not that CO2 is a big worry anyway: 2 inches mean sea level rise over
the next 100 years is the latest lower bound of the IPCC report on
GW's effects anyway.
RL
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| User: "Bill Ward" |
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| Title: Re: Roger still running away from his lies. What else is new? |
02 Sep 2007 03:27:24 PM |
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On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 12:29:40 -0700, raylopez99 wrote:
On Sep 1, 4:08 pm, Bill Ward <bw...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 14:54:52 -0700, Roger Coppock wrote:
<snip>
Bill, guess you figured out Roger likes to move the goalposts? That's why
he's entertaining. That's also one reason I gave up debating Roger.
Roger can move the goalposts all he wants, but I don't intend to let him
get away with deliberately lying to the group. He owes the group an
apology, and until then, his lies will follow him like skunk perfume.
I gave up reading this newsgroup when I concluded there's nothing to learn
here.
I'm hoping it may be improving. All it takes are a few civilized, or at
least house-broken, posters.
Insofar as gas guzzlers go, I think PETA once calculated eating meat is
more CO2 intensive than owning an SUV.
I'm an indirect vegan. I only eat things that eat vegetables. But I
don't have an SUV.
Not that CO2 is a big worry anyway: 2 inches mean sea level rise over
the next 100 years is the latest lower bound of the IPCC report on GW's
effects anyway.
I'm still not convinced CO2 has anything to do with climate, considering
the regulating effect of the latent heat of water.
Thanks for your comments.
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| User: "mrbawana2u" |
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| Title: Re: John Edwards tells Americans to give up gas-guzzlers |
01 Sep 2007 06:00:39 PM |
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On Sep 1, 5:54 pm, Roger Coppock <rcopp...@adnc.com> wrote:
On Sep 1, 11:44 am, Frogwatch <dboh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
[ . . . ]
A recent pic of Edwards huge energy guzzling mansion showed at least 6
SUVs parked there. [ . . . ]
So, you got the message from headquarters then.
Those who tell us what to think say that
we're all supposed to hate Edwards now.
Hypocrisy is a resume enhancement for lib-tards.
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