| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"The Fool" |
| Date: |
17 Dec 2005 02:01:26 AM |
| Object: |
Liberalism Says I am Right |
I believe in Jesus. I believe the Spirits are subject to His name. I
believe people can find salvation in Him, as their offended get justice
in the blood of Christ. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. I
believe He is coming again to set up His Kingdom on earth.
And..you know what...liberalism says I am right.
What? Liberalism says I am right? You may be asking how that could
possibly be true.
According to liberalism, there is no objective standards for
identifying right, wrong, true, false, etc. No. Good is whatever
anyone says good is for them. True is a matter of interpretation to
the person. Right is a personal conclusion, based upon ones own
reasoning.
Therefore, since I believe all the above to be good, true, and right.
It is. I am not bad, false, or wrong to say that it is so...right? I
would challenge liberalism to come up with a reason this would not be
the case, since they can produce no objective standard to judge me
by...since they reject the very concept of an objective standard.
Ken Clifton
christianjedi.com
christiancelebrity.com
somebodysaveme.com
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| User: "Jude Alexander" |
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| Title: Re: Liberalism Says I am Right |
17 Dec 2005 09:22:44 AM |
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"The Fool" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134803696.898809.15320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I believe in Jesus. I believe the Spirits are subject to His name. I
believe people can find salvation in Him, as their offended get justice
in the blood of Christ. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. I
believe He is coming again to set up His Kingdom on earth.
And..you know what...liberalism says I am right.
What? Liberalism says I am right? You may be asking how that could
possibly be true.
According to liberalism, there is no objective standards for
identifying right, wrong, true, false, etc. No. Good is whatever
anyone says good is for them. True is a matter of interpretation to
the person. Right is a personal conclusion, based upon ones own
reasoning.
Liberalism does NOT state there are no objective standards, etc. You are
nothing more than a proprogandist liar. Get an education, puuuuuuuuuuuleze.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
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| User: "The Fool" |
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| Title: Re: Liberalism Says I am Right |
17 Dec 2005 09:32:37 AM |
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Jude Alexander wrote:
"The Fool" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134803696.898809.15320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I believe in Jesus. I believe the Spirits are subject to His name. I
believe people can find salvation in Him, as their offended get justice
in the blood of Christ. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. I
believe He is coming again to set up His Kingdom on earth.
And..you know what...liberalism says I am right.
What? Liberalism says I am right? You may be asking how that could
possibly be true.
According to liberalism, there is no objective standards for
identifying right, wrong, true, false, etc. No. Good is whatever
anyone says good is for them. True is a matter of interpretation to
the person. Right is a personal conclusion, based upon ones own
reasoning.
Liberalism does NOT state there are no objective standards, etc. You are
nothing more than a proprogandist liar. Get an education, puuuuuuuuuuuleze.
I'm almost certain that my education level is much higher than yours,
and I would venture that my college history is more liberal than yours.
However, that is another point.
If you think there is objective standards, tell me upon what are they
based. You cannot say the law, because liberals seek to overturn any
law that restricts their freedom. You cannot say tradition, because
liberals seek to set aside tradition. You cannot say the
bible...definitely wouldn't want to say that. You cannot say majority
rule, for many liberal positions are opposed to the majority. So,
what, exactly, would be the standard upon which you would say I am
wrong.
Ken Clifton
christianjedi.com
christiancelebrity.com
somebodysaveme.com
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| User: "Jude Alexander" |
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| Title: Re: Liberalism Says I am Right |
17 Dec 2005 05:47:30 PM |
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"The Fool" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134833557.310034.176690@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Jude Alexander wrote:
"The Fool" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134803696.898809.15320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I believe in Jesus. I believe the Spirits are subject to His name. I
believe people can find salvation in Him, as their offended get
justice
in the blood of Christ. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. I
believe He is coming again to set up His Kingdom on earth.
And..you know what...liberalism says I am right.
What? Liberalism says I am right? You may be asking how that could
possibly be true.
According to liberalism, there is no objective standards for
identifying right, wrong, true, false, etc. No. Good is whatever
anyone says good is for them. True is a matter of interpretation to
the person. Right is a personal conclusion, based upon ones own
reasoning.
Liberalism does NOT state there are no objective standards, etc. You
are
nothing more than a proprogandist liar. Get an education,
puuuuuuuuuuuleze.
I'm almost certain that my education level is much higher than yours,
and I would venture that my college history is more liberal than yours.
However, that is another point.
Well I have a 5 year architectural degree. So what do you have? Want to
join a pissing contest next?
If you think there is objective standards, tell me upon what are they
based. You cannot say the law, because liberals seek to overturn any
law that restricts their freedom. You cannot say tradition, because
liberals seek to set aside tradition. You cannot say the
bible...definitely wouldn't want to say that. You cannot say majority
rule, for many liberal positions are opposed to the majority. So,
what, exactly, would be the standard upon which you would say I am
wrong.
Did you click on the link? I noticed you didn't have in your response.
Probably not because you would have to shut your lying piehole and actually
learn about the expansive differences within liberal thought. It's not just
ONE entity in which to level your religious insecurities.
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| User: "Secret Squirrel" |
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| Title: Re: Liberalism Says I am Right |
17 Dec 2005 04:18:42 PM |
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
"The Fool" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1134833557.310034.176690@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Jude Alexander wrote:
"The Fool" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134803696.898809.15320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com..
.
I believe in Jesus. I believe the Spirits are subject
to His name. I believe people can find salvation in
Him, as their offended get justice in the blood of
Christ. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. I
believe He is coming again to set up His Kingdom on
earth.
And..you know what...liberalism says I am right.
What? Liberalism says I am right? You may be asking
how that could possibly be true.
According to liberalism, there is no objective standards
for identifying right, wrong, true, false, etc. No.
Good is whatever anyone says good is for them. True is
a matter of interpretation to the person. Right is a
personal conclusion, based upon ones own reasoning.
Liberalism does NOT state there are no objective
standards, etc. You are nothing more than a proprogandist
liar. Get an education, puuuuuuuuuuuleze.
I'm almost certain that my education level is much higher
than yours, and I would venture that my college history is
more liberal than yours.
However, that is another point.
If you think there is objective standards, tell me upon
what are they based. You cannot say the law, because
liberals seek to overturn any law that restricts their
freedom. You cannot say tradition, because liberals seek
to set aside tradition. You cannot say the
bible...definitely wouldn't want to say that. You cannot
say majority rule, for many liberal positions are opposed
to the majority. So, what, exactly, would be the standard
upon which you would say I am wrong.
You're quite right, you can't say any of those.
But you left out the obvious: how about 'objective standards'
that can be verified, gosh, objectively?? (within reason)
Empirical, tangible, material, stuff. Don't show us verses
in the Bible, or the Koran, or the Torah or whatnot; don't
appeal to traditions ("we've always done it this way"), don't
appeal to majority whim. Instead, show us why something is
good or bad, because of how someone, or the greater number
of people, are either tangibly helped or harmed, by it.
When you get down to it, that's what most of liberalism is
all about. That's why it originated in the Enlightenment.
It's roughly the application of the methods of science to
human social problems.
That's why the Bushites have mocked liberals by calling them
members of the "reality-based community". Liberals tend to
make their arguments based on empirical evidence; whereas
religious conservatives, at least, think that you should
find all the answers a priori by quoting from an ancient
book irregardless of what the evidence says.
Secret Squirrel
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.
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| User: "The Watch Dog" |
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| Title: Re: Liberalism Says I am Right |
17 Dec 2005 05:09:44 PM |
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Most liberals would say: there may be objective, absolute standards,
and there may not be. But even if there are, humans - each and every
one of us - have no absolute, objective method for discovering what
those standards are. So we're in the same place in either case,
muddling along as humans do, trying our best to figure out what helps
people the most.
Even groups that believe that the Bible represents absolute, objective
standards have to admit that they do not have an absolute, objective
method for intepreting the Bible. For example, the Southern Baptists
beleive that the Bible is absolutely, objectively true. Yet for decades
they interpreted it in such a way as to support racism and segregation.
Now they admit that their intepretation was wrong, and they've
apologized for their actions.
If they've learned from this, they have to admit that their CURRENT
intepretations of the Bible may also be incorrect, so they have no
claim to absolute, objective truth. (I have no dobut that, within a
century, the Southern Baptists will be apologizing to gays for misuinsg
the Bible against them. I just wish they would hurry up.
So, no matter who you are - liberal or conservative, atheist or theist,
gay or straight - you have to admit that you don't have access to
absolute, objective standards, and so you need to question your beliefs
and see how they hold up in the light of day. And, most particularly,
you have to understand that other people - people of good will and
sincerity - will come to other conclusions (in their muddling, human
way), and let them folow those conclusions as best they can, as long as
they're not hurting anyone.
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| User: "Mike Andrade" |
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| Title: Re: Liberalism Says I am Right |
17 Dec 2005 07:01:37 PM |
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"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in
news:1134860984.053137.109040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Most liberals would say: there may be objective, absolute
standards, and there may not be. But even if there are, humans -
each and every one of us - have no absolute, objective method for
discovering what those standards are. So we're in the same place
in either case, muddling along as humans do, trying our best to
figure out what helps people the most.
Even groups that believe that the Bible represents absolute,
objective standards have to admit that they do not have an
absolute, objective method for intepreting the Bible. For example,
the Southern Baptists beleive that the Bible is absolutely,
objectively true. Yet for decades they interpreted it in such a
way as to support racism and segregation. Now they admit that
their intepretation was wrong, and they've apologized for their
actions.
If they've learned from this, they have to admit that their
CURRENT intepretations of the Bible may also be incorrect, so they
have no claim to absolute, objective truth. (I have no dobut that,
within a century, the Southern Baptists will be apologizing to
gays for misuinsg the Bible against them. I just wish they would
hurry up.
So, no matter who you are - liberal or conservative, atheist or
theist, gay or straight - you have to admit that you don't have
access to absolute, objective standards, and so you need to
question your beliefs and see how they hold up in the light of
day. And, most particularly, you have to understand that other
people - people of good will and sincerity - will come to other
conclusions (in their muddling, human way), and let them folow
those conclusions as best they can, as long as they're not hurting
anyone.
Excellent post.
--
Mike
A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only
a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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| User: "The Watch Dog" |
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| Title: Re: Liberalism Says I am Right |
18 Dec 2005 12:42:06 AM |
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Mike Andrade wrote:
Excellent post.
Thanks for the kind words, Mike.
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| User: "Bull" |
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| Title: Re: Re: Liberalism Says I am Right |
17 Dec 2005 10:39:18 AM |
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On 17 Dec 2005 07:32:37 -0800, "The Fool"
<kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
Jude Alexander wrote:
"The Fool" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in
message
news:1134803696.898809.15320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I believe in Jesus. I believe the Spirits are
subject to His name. I
believe people can find salvation in Him, as
their offended get justice
in the blood of Christ. I believe the Bible
is the Word of God. I
believe He is coming again to set up His
Kingdom on earth.
And..you know what...liberalism says I am
right.
What? Liberalism says I am right? You may be
asking how that could
possibly be true.
According to liberalism, there is no objective
standards for
identifying right, wrong, true, false, etc.
No. Good is whatever
anyone says good is for them. True is a
matter of interpretation to
the person. Right is a personal conclusion,
based upon ones own
reasoning.
Liberalism does NOT state there are no objective
standards, etc. You are
nothing more than a proprogandist liar. Get an
education, puuuuuuuuuuuleze.
I'm almost certain that my education level is much
higher than yours,
and I would venture that my college history is
more liberal than yours.
However, that is another point.
If you think there is objective standards, tell me
upon what are they
based. You cannot say the law, because liberals
seek to overturn any
law that restricts their freedom. You cannot say
tradition, because
liberals seek to set aside tradition. You cannot
say the
bible...definitely wouldn't want to say that. You
cannot say majority
rule, for many liberal positions are opposed to
the majority. So,
what, exactly, would be the standard upon which
you would say I am
wrong.
Ken Clifton
christianjedi.com
christiancelebrity.com
somebodysaveme.com
You sure are full of yourself.
Aren't you?
It's narrow-minded bigots like yourself who are
chasing people away from the fanatics on the
right. Regardless of your supposed education,
people who live in a world of stereotypes aren't
known to be the brightest in the bunch. And,
educated people can certainly spell a lot better
than you.
__
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Liberalism Says I am Right |
18 Dec 2005 03:19:12 PM |
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Libralism is indeed very interested in asserting the existence of
objective moral standards. And rightly says these standards are not
merely based on the two tablets Moses dragged down from Mt. Sinai. And
not merely what some stone age prophets or priests declared to be the
irrefutable will of God. Nor what some neo stone age prophets, like
St. Paul,
had to say in the New Testament.
There are standards but they are based on human experience through the
ages, expressed philosophers, authors, and, yes, some of those more
rational sayings of prophets and New Testament writers. Plus, a lot of
ethics input from modern philosophers,
dramatists, newspaper columnists, preachers etc.
The thing about St. Paul, if I read him write, is not what moralists
have written in stone, but the indwelling spirit of God in a person
which through the new birth or birth from above empowers him to want to
do the good and espouse love of God and all humans.
Still there are moral standards and, in the Christian context, they are
the subject of
much analysis and deep thinking. And no Liberal in his right mind
would say there are
mere subjective musings with no objective basis. Mainly, because they
are a matter of life and death. For if those standards are ignored
generally then society can go to hell ..
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| User: "*Peace of Christ*" |
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| Title: Re: Liberalism Says I am Right |
17 Dec 2005 10:20:24 AM |
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In article <1134803696.898809.15320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "The
Fool" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
Actially "liberalism" says you have the right to believe what you want,
say what you want, even do what you want, as long as you:
1) Do not bring harm to another person.
2) Do not conflict or abridge the rights of another
That means you have the "right" to keep posting these silly rants of
yours, and show yourself to truly be a fool.
However the laes if Christ say that you really do need to grow up, to bear
good fruit, and start treating EVERYONE as you wish to be treated.
--
*Peace of Christ*
http://grace.break.at
To send e-mail, remove "youhat" from address
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| User: "Bull" |
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| Title: Re: Re: Liberalism Says I am Right |
17 Dec 2005 10:41:02 AM |
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On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:20:24 GMT,
His_child2005yourhat@yahoo.com.au (*Peace of
Christ*) wrote:
In article
<1134803696.898809.15320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"The
Fool" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
Actially "liberalism" says you have the right to
believe what you want,
say what you want, even do what you want, as long
as you:
1) Do not bring harm to another person.
2) Do not conflict or abridge the rights of
another
Is that some sort of official definition?
That means you have the "right" to keep posting
these silly rants of
yours, and show yourself to truly be a fool.
However the laes if Christ say that you really do
need to grow up, to bear
good fruit, and start treating EVERYONE as you
wish to be treated.
__
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| User: "The Watch Dog" |
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| Title: Re: Liberalism Says I am Right |
17 Dec 2005 03:39:08 AM |
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The Fool wrote:
I believe in Jesus. I believe the Spirits are subject to His name. I
believe people can find salvation in Him, as their offended get justice
in the blood of Christ. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. I
believe He is coming again to set up His Kingdom on earth.
And..you know what...liberalism says I am right.
What? Liberalism says I am right? You may be asking how that could
possibly be true.
According to liberalism, there is no objective standards for
identifying right, wrong, true, false, etc. No. Good is whatever
anyone says good is for them. True is a matter of interpretation to
the person. Right is a personal conclusion, based upon ones own
reasoning.
Therefore, since I believe all the above to be good, true, and right.
It is. I am not bad, false, or wrong to say that it is so...right? I
would challenge liberalism to come up with a reason this would not be
the case, since they can produce no objective standard to judge me
by...since they reject the very concept of an objective standard.
You spend so much time telling other people what liberalism says. It's
an obsession of sorts. It might be useful to actually quote particular
liberals. Not all liberals agree; and almost none of them say what you
claim they say.
Liberalism would CERTAINLY not say you are "bad, false, or wrong to
say that it is so." You are enitrely entitled to believe what you
believe and say what you say. Most liberals will not be in the business
of telling you you are wrong OR right in this regard, since they
understand that such beliefs cannot be proved one way or the other.
Instead most liberals would say (and I would say): those are your
religious beliefs, and we hope that they work out very well for you,
bringing you closer to a sense of peace and the presence of God, as you
envision him. Meanwhile, other people have THEIR religions, which may
be different from yours. Please let them pursue them as best as they
are able (as long as they don't hurt anyone in doing so), so that they
too can do their best to find a sense of peace, and the presence of
God, as THEY envision him.
In my opinion, this unending focus on which religion (out of thousands)
is RIGHT or WRONG (translation: "My religion is BETTER than your
religion!") is a waste of time, since nobody will ever be able to prove
it one way or another, unless God steps in and tells each of us
personally. (I'm sure you think that YOU have objective standards of
right and wrong. What you have is an opinion.) What's important is: is
this set of beliefs working for this person as a spiritual path?
Different paths may work for different people, just as different songs
evoke wondrous, loving emotions in different people.
Consider the possibility that God is too big for any one person to
conclude that they know the right and the wrong of God, and that
everybody else is just incorrect.
In the world I live in, most people say: "This is my religion. It helps
me be a better person. If you would like to know more about it, I'd be
happy to tell you. But whether you do or not, I hope you find something
as meaningful to you as this is to me." And the people respect each
other, and co-exist peacefully, despite their different beliefs.
Ken, are you unhappy with your beliefs? Are you so insecure in them
that you need to "trip up" liberalism, or any other school of thought,
with semantic games, for fear that they might somehow destroy your
beliefs? Enjoy your beliefs; live them; let other people live theirs.
Liberalism isn't out to stop you from doing that.
The point is not what your beliefs are, but how you carry them: with
humility, with arrogance, with fear. There are many people who believe
what you wrote at the beginning of this post, and yet are liberals.
They carry their beliefs with humility, and peacefully accept the fact
that other people have different beliefs. They understand that, just
because they believe something, that doesn't mean it represents the
boundaries of God.
Truly, I wish the best for you and your family. You seem tremendously
angry, and unhappy. Is that what you want for yourself, particularly at
this season?
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
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