Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2



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Topic: Politics > Politics-USA
User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder"
Date: 19 May 2007 11:01:07 AM
Object: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2
A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young. This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.
In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and, as
such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that the weak
that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must be the most
evolved religion, since it is based upon self-sacrifice and
forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the strongest man to have
lived, since He, being ultimately strong, gave to save all of us, the
ultimately weak.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.

User: "Roger"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 19 May 2007 04:24:02 PM
Have you read anything about evolution?
No.
Why do you insist on proving your ignorance, on all topics?
Are you a masocist?
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1179590467.746941.236050@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young. This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.

In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and, as
such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that the weak
that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must be the most
evolved religion, since it is based upon self-sacrifice and
forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the strongest man to have
lived, since He, being ultimately strong, gave to save all of us, the
ultimately weak.

Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com

.
User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 20 May 2007 07:51:26 AM
On May 19, 4:24 pm, "Roger" <roge...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Have you read anything about evolution?

No.

Why do you insist on proving your ignorance, on all topics?

Are you a masocist?

"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1179590467.746941.236050@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young. This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.


In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and, as
such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that the weak
that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must be the most
evolved religion, since it is based upon self-sacrifice and
forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the strongest man to have
lived, since He, being ultimately strong, gave to save all of us, the
ultimately weak.


Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com

Your total avoidance of my topic post is noted. I repeat it,
therefore. If LOVE is a PART of evolution, Christianity must be the
most evolved religion, since it is based on love. If love is a part
of evolution, Jesus is the most evolved person that ever lived, since
He (being the ultimate strong) sacrificed Himself for the weak.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
User: "Roger"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 20 May 2007 05:50:56 PM
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1179665485.959018.290280@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

On May 19, 4:24 pm, "Roger" <roge...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Have you read anything about evolution?

No.

Why do you insist on proving your ignorance, on all topics?

Are you a masocist?

"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in
messagenews:1179590467.746941.236050@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young. This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.


In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and, as
such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that the weak
that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must be the most
evolved religion, since it is based upon self-sacrifice and
forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the strongest man to have
lived, since He, being ultimately strong, gave to save all of us, the
ultimately weak.


Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com


Your total avoidance of my topic post is noted. I repeat it,
therefore. If LOVE is a PART of evolution, Christianity must be the
most evolved religion, since it is based on love. If love is a part
of evolution, Jesus is the most evolved person that ever lived, since
He (being the ultimate strong) sacrificed Himself for the weak.

Chucklehead, evolution has to do with SPECIES, not religions.
.

User: "Anlatt the Builder"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 20 May 2007 05:42:49 PM
On May 20, 5:51 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:


Your total avoidance of my topic post is noted.

*I* didn't avoid it. Respond or admit you can't.
.

User: "Anlatt the Builder"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 20 May 2007 05:41:45 PM
On May 20, 5:51 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On May 19, 4:24 pm, "Roger" <roge...@hotmail.com> wrote:





Have you read anything about evolution?


No.


Why do you insist on proving your ignorance, on all topics?


Are you a masocist?


"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1179590467.746941.236050@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...


A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young. This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.


In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and, as
such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that the weak
that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must be the most
evolved religion, since it is based upon self-sacrifice and
forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the strongest man to have
lived, since He, being ultimately strong, gave to save all of us, the
ultimately weak.


Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com


Your total avoidance of my topic post is noted. I repeat it,
therefore. If LOVE is a PART of evolution, Christianity must be the
most evolved religion, since it is based on love. If love is a part
of evolution, Jesus is the most evolved person that ever lived, since
He (being the ultimate strong) sacrificed Himself for the weak.

But this is a totally, obviously illogical conclusion. Yes, love is a
PART of evolution, but so is violence, gills, hibernation, black widow
spiders, and reproduction by budding (to name just a few of a very,
very long list). In the biological snese (as opposed to the cultural
or ethical sense), none of them is MORE EVOLVED than any other of
them. Therefore a religion based on love is not "more evolved" (again,
in the biological sense) than a religion based on hibernation.
Are you even capable of seeing how obviously false your logic is? A
smart 12-year-old could come up with the counterargument. If you can't
see your mistake and admit it, then you should go back to junior
high.
I'm going to try again, Ken:
"But this is a totally, obviously illogical conclusion. Yes, love is a
PART of evolution, but so is violence, gills, hibernation, black widow
spiders, and reproduction by budding (to name just a few of a very,
very long list). In the biological snese (as opposed to the cultural
or ethical sense), none of them is MORE EVOLVED than any other of
them. There for a religion based on love is not 'more evolved' (again,
in the biological sense) than a religion based on hibernation."
Refute if you can, or admit you can't. Running away (although
expected) isn't the same as refusting.
.

User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 20 May 2007 09:23:06 AM
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:

Your total avoidance of my topic post is noted. I repeat it,
therefore. If LOVE is a PART of evolution,

It isn't. It is consistent with evolution.

Christianity must be the most evolved religion,

You have a head. Michael Moore has a head. Therefore you must be the
multimillionaire fat liberal docudrama producer who hates Bush. Those
lines display the same fallacy as your "logic".
Religions do not "evolve" according to the theory of evolution.
Things that "love" are not "more evolved". The lowly bacteria is at
least as "evolved" as we are (since they produce generations more
quickly than we do and usually have less DNA correcting mechanisms,
they can't help but evolve quickly), but they evolve in different
directions.

since it is based on love.

Being based on love is totally unrelated to evolution.
And only your silly theology says that "Christianity is based on
love". In practice, Christianity is based on lots of things, like
televangelists bilking millions of their savings, and turkeys flacking
their books on Usenet.

If love is a part of evolution,

No, it isn't. It might be the RESULT of evolution.

Jesus is the most evolved person that ever lived,

No person is any more evolved than any other person.

since He (being the ultimate strong) sacrificed Himself for the weak.

Many people have "sacrificed themselves for the weak". That doesn't
make them more loving than anyone else that has sacrificed themselves
for the weak. And it doesn't make them "more evolved". The concept
makes no sense.
Which is typical for you, liar.
lojbab
.

User: "met00"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 21 May 2007 03:32:47 AM
Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:

On May 19, 4:24 pm, "Roger" <roge...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Have you read anything about evolution?

No.

Why do you insist on proving your ignorance, on all topics?

Are you a masocist?

"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1179590467.746941.236050@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young. This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.
In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and, as
such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that the weak
that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must be the most
evolved religion, since it is based upon self-sacrifice and
forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the strongest man to have
lived, since He, being ultimately strong, gave to save all of us, the
ultimately weak.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com


Your total avoidance of my topic post is noted. I repeat it,
therefore. If LOVE is a PART of evolution, Christianity must be the
most evolved religion, since it is based on love. If love is a part
of evolution, Jesus is the most evolved person that ever lived, since
He (being the ultimate strong) sacrificed Himself for the weak.

"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's
punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals. "
"Any sex outside of the marriage bond between a man and a woman is
violating God's law. "
"Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan in America. "
"Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions. "
"Homosexuality is Satan's diabolical attack upon the family that will
not only have a corrupting influence upon our next generation, but it
will also bring down the wrath of God upon America. "
"I am a Christian. "
"I believe that global warming is a myth. And so, therefore, I have no
conscience problems at all and I'm going to buy a Suburban next time. "
"I believe that the people of Israel are the chosen people of God. "
"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being. "
"The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil
to keep Christians from running their own country. "
"There's been a concerted effort to steal Christmas."
"“I had a student ask me, "Could the savior you believe in save Osama
bin Laden?" Of course, we know the blood of Jesus Christ can save him,
and then he must be executed”"
“It appears that America's anti-Biblical feminist movement is at last
dying, thank God, and is possibly being replaced by a Christ-centered
men's movement which may become the foundation for a desperately needed
national spiritual awakening”
"I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country,
we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over
again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!"
"I put all the blame legally and morally on the actions of the
terrorist, [but America's] secular and anti-Christian environment left
us open to our Lord's [decision] not to protect. When a nation deserts
God and expels God from the culture ... the result is not good."
"And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out
successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out
of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to
bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we
destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really
believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and
the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an
alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of
them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their
face and say, "You helped this happen.""
"If we are going to save America and evangelize the world, we cannot
accommodate secular philosophies that are diametrically opposed to
Christian truth ... We need to pull out all the stops to recruit and
train 25 million Americans to become informed pro-moral activists whose
voices can be heard in the halls of Congress.
I am convinced that America can be turned around if we will all
get serious about the Master's business. It may be late, but it is never
too late to do what is right. We need an old-fashioned, God-honoring,
Christ-exalting revival to turn American back to God. America can be saved!"
"There is no separation of church and state. Modern US Supreme Courts
have raped the Constitution and raped the Christian faith and raped the
churches by misinterpreting what the Founders had in mind in the First
Amendment to the Constitution."
"The Jews are returning to their land of unbelief. They are spiritually
blind and desperately in need of their Messiah and Savior."
Damn, that looks like a hell of a lot of good lovin from a good
Christian... If you love Falwell and his message, you love hate, and
that is so very very Christian today...
.



User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 21 May 2007 02:11:56 PM
In article <1179590467.746941.236050@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists.

A few days ago you also ignored -- for the third time -- my
question as to why Isabel rolled right over Virginia Beach
and then headed north after a man of God had commanded it,
in Jesus' name, to cease its forward motion to the north
and turn and go out to sea.
Fourth time's a charm?
-- cary
.
User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 21 May 2007 10:01:23 PM
On May 21, 2:11 pm,
(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

In article <1179590467.746941.236...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists.


A few days ago you also ignored -- for the third time -- my
question as to why Isabel rolled right over Virginia Beach
and then headed north after a man of God had commanded it,
in Jesus' name, to cease its forward motion to the north
and turn and go out to sea.

Fourth time's a charm?

-- cary

I have replied to you three times with a cite and official figures
that showed sustained winds over the entire state of Virginia NEVER
reached hurricane force. A "hurricane" didn't hit Virginia after
Pat's prayer...a Tropical Storm did.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 22 May 2007 11:58:30 AM
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com>


On May 21, 2:11 pm,

(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

In article <1179590467.746941.236...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists.


A few days ago you also ignored -- for the third time -- my
question as to why Isabel rolled right over Virginia Beach
and then headed north after a man of God had commanded it,
in Jesus' name, to cease its forward motion to the north
and turn and go out to sea.

Fourth time's a charm?

-- cary


I have replied to you three times with a cite and official figures
that showed sustained winds over the entire state of Virginia NEVER
reached hurricane force. A "hurricane" didn't hit Virginia after
Pat's prayer...a Tropical Storm did.

Actually -- as I, along with at least two other posters pointed
out to you -- your official figures proved exactly the opposite
for Virginia Beach: winds were at a minimum 16 mph over the level
which defines a Category I hurricane. Storm surge also exceeded
the minimum definition by a comfortable margin. Isabel was
clearly a hurricane when it swept over PatCo's television
studios.
But -- you clever boy, you -- you're trying to distract me from
the important question, aren't you? So let's dispose of your
little diversion: OK, Ken, we'll call Isabel at that point
anything you want, shall we? You want to call her a tropical
storm, we'll call her a tropical storm. You want to call her
a zeypher, or a refreshing breeze, or dead air -- hey,
I'm easy.
And the reason I'm so easy is because I want to hear your answer
to the following (fifth time I've asked, mind you):
1) Jesus says that whatever you ask for in his name will be
done. Jesus says you can toss mountains about like marshmallows
if you so desire.


2) ol' Pat asked, NOT that the force of the of ths storm be
abated somewhat, but that Isabel turn around and go
back whence she came.


3) God didn't do that at all. Not only did the storm not
turn around and beat it like a rejected suitor, it went
on to do a couple of billion dollars of damage in
Virginia alone, kill a number of people, leave a
larger number homeless, and destroy a considerable
round of businesses.

4) Not one of these tragedies would have taken place if
God would have done what Pat asked Him -- in Jesus'
name -- to do: to send Isabel back out to sea.


And your explanation for this theological puzzler is:
-- cary
.


User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 21 May 2007 10:42:55 PM
On May 21, 2:11 pm,
(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

In article <1179590467.746941.236...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists.


A few days ago you also ignored -- for the third time -- my
question as to why Isabel rolled right over Virginia Beach
and then headed north after a man of God had commanded it,
in Jesus' name, to cease its forward motion to the north
and turn and go out to sea.

Fourth time's a charm?

-- cary

I have replied to you three times with a cite and official figures
that showed sustained winds over the entire state of Virginia NEVER
reached hurricane force. A "hurricane" didn't hit Virginia after
Pat's prayer...a Tropical Storm did.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
User: "Gray Shockley"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 23 May 2007 03:24:30 AM
On Mon, 21 May 2007 22:42:55 -0500, Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote
:

On May 21, 2:11 pm,

(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

In article <1179590467.746941.236...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed
in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists.


A few days ago you also ignored -- for the third time -- my
question as to why Isabel rolled right over Virginia Beach
and then headed north after a man of God had commanded it,
in Jesus' name, to cease its forward motion to the north
and turn and go out to sea.

Fourth time's a charm?

-- cary


I have replied to you three times with a cite and official figures
that showed sustained winds over the entire state of Virginia NEVER
reached hurricane force. A "hurricane" didn't hit Virginia after
Pat's prayer...a Tropical Storm did.

Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com

I guess that Pat "New Fat Boy on the Block" Robertson showed
that pansy-***** god who was boss!
Just call "him" <snicker> "Willie". Got one? Be one!
Gray Shockley
----------------------
R Anton W, oc.
.



User: "Jerry Kraus"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 19 May 2007 04:29:18 PM
On May 19, 11:01 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young. This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.

In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and, as
such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that the weak
that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must be the most
evolved religion, since it is based upon self-sacrifice and
forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the strongest man to have
lived, since He, being ultimately strong, gave to save all of us, the
ultimately weak.

Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com

Get this through your head. Evolution isn't anti-Christian. Nor is
Christianity inherently anti-Evolution. YOU are anti-evolution,
probably because it is inconsistent with a literal interpretation of
the Book of Genesis. DON'T BE SO RIGID AND LITERAL!!!!!
.
User: "Roger"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 19 May 2007 04:40:24 PM
"Jerry Kraus" <jkraus_1999@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1179610158.014387.86150@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

On May 19, 11:01 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young. This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.

In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and, as
such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that the weak
that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must be the most
evolved religion, since it is based upon self-sacrifice and
forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the strongest man to have
lived, since He, being ultimately strong, gave to save all of us, the
ultimately weak.

Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com


Get this through your head. Evolution isn't anti-Christian. Nor is
Christianity inherently anti-Evolution. YOU are anti-evolution,
probably because it is inconsistent with a literal interpretation of
the Book of Genesis. DON'T BE SO RIGID AND LITERAL!!!!!

He's anti-evolution because he's been told to be, and is too scared to learn
anything about it himself.
.
User: "St. Jockofgrapes"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 19 May 2007 04:56:33 PM
"Roger" <rogerfx@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:464f6eb7$0$16739$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

"Jerry Kraus" <jkraus_1999@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1179610158.014387.86150@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

On May 19, 11:01 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young. This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.

In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and, as
such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that the weak
that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must be the most
evolved religion, since it is based upon self-sacrifice and
forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the strongest man to have
lived, since He, being ultimately strong, gave to save all of us, the
ultimately weak.

Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com


Get this through your head. Evolution isn't anti-Christian. Nor is
Christianity inherently anti-Evolution. YOU are anti-evolution,
probably because it is inconsistent with a literal interpretation of
the Book of Genesis. DON'T BE SO RIGID AND LITERAL!!!!!


He's anti-evolution because he's been told to be, and is too scared to learn anything about it himself.

Love’s Labor Won
I have so far presented two essential components for meaning—the pursuit
of wonder and the knowledge of truth—and suggested that they are both
fulfilled in a person. I now suggest that the third component essential to
meaning is love. From the wonder of childhood to the search for truth in
adolescence, we come to the consummation of love in young adulthood.
Christopher Morley said, “If we all discovered that we had only five
minutes left to say all that we wanted to say, every telephone booth would
be occupied by people calling other people to stammer that we love
them.”?8?
The greatest institution God gave to humanity is the institution of the family,
based on the need for unconditional love. On love and marriage, G. K.
Chesterton made this poignant observation: “They have invented a new
phrase that is a black-and-white contradiction in two words—‘free love.’
As if a lover had been, or ever could be, free. It is the nature of love to bind
itself.”?9? Those words seem totally foreign to our disposable society: “It is
the nature of love to bind itself.” Realistically, what passes for love today
could be more aptly described as self-gratification or indulgence.
How strange that we call the sexual act “making love.” In actuality, if that
act is without commitment, it is a literal and figurative denuding of love by
which the individual is degraded to an object. In short, love is not love when
it has been manufactured for the moment. Love is the posture of the soul,
and its entailments are binding. When love is shallow, the heart is empty, but
if the sacrifice of love is understood, one can drink deeply from its cup and
be completely fulfilled. The more one consumes love selfishly, the more
wretched and impoverished one becomes. But how do we know this?
Through the message of Christ.
At the heart of the gospel is a Savior who loves us and offered himself for
us. Once more, a unique truth emerges. Even Mahatma Gandhi, who was a
Hindu, stated that the cross of Jesus constantly showed itself as an
unparalleled expression of God’s grace. Dr. E. Stanley Jones, a famed and
noted missionary to India, used to tell the story of a man, a devout Hindu
government official, to whom he was trying to explain the concept of the
cross. The man kept reiterating to Dr. Jones that he could not possibly
make sense of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the offer of salvation by
virtue of the cross. Their conversations on this subject were circular and
seemingly unsolvable to his satisfaction.
One day, through a series of circumstances, the man involved himself in an
extramarital affair that tormented his conscience. He could live with himself
no longer, and finally, looking into the eyes of his devoted wife, he told her
the heartrending story of his betrayal. The hours and days of anguish and
pain became weeks of heaviness in her heart. Yet, as she weathered the
early shock, she confessed to him not only her deep sense of hurt but also
the promise of her undying commitment and love.
Suddenly, almost like a flash of lightning illuminating the night sky, he found
himself muttering, “Now I know what it means to see love crucified by sin.”
He bent his knee in repentance to the Christ who went to the cross for him,
binding his heart with a new commitment to his Lord and to his wife.
If there is one description that captures the purpose of the cross, it is this:
forgiveness that has been just and merciful at the same time. Christ did not
die just as an example or as a martyr. He died so that the very ones who
crucified him could have a way provided for their forgiveness. The cross
conveys a message that is unquestionably unique. It stands in stark contrast
to every other human power and human solution. This cross defines what
love’s entailments are.
But there is something more, and here we get to the crux of meaning. In
Christian terms, love does not stand merely as an emotion or even as an
expression of being reconciled to God. In a relationship with God, it
ultimately flowers into worship. It is in worship alone that wonder and truth
coalesce and our expression prefigures the consummation of an eternal
communion. The enrichment that results from worship feeds all other
relationships and helps us to hold sacred all of life’s needed commitments.
D. H. Lawrence was right when he said that the deepest hunger of the
human heart goes beyond love. And Thomas Wolfe was right—there is that
sense of cosmic loneliness apart from God. In Christ that loneliness is
conquered as the hungers of the human heart are met and the struggles of
the intellect are answered.
“How is that so?” one might ask. Archbishop William Temple defined
worship in these terms:
Worship is the submission of all of our nature to God. It is the quickening of
conscience by His holiness, nourishment of mind by His truth, purifying of
imagination by His beauty, opening of the heart to His love, and submission
of will to His purpose. All this gathered up in adoration is the greatest of all
expressions of which we are capable.?10?
Life is bereft of meaning because of the essential fragmentation that results
when life is viewed as nothing more than matter. But if our lives are in truth
designed for the supreme purpose of worship, then the sacred binds our
lives and fuses every activity with meaning, even as it enables us to resist
that which desacralizes life. Thomas Merton was right when he said that
man is not at peace with his fellow man because he is not at peace with
himself. And he is not at peace with himself because he is not at peace with
God. That inner fragmentation is corrected only by the integrity of worship.
It is not accidental that in one of the most notable of all Jesus’
conversations, with the woman at the well, the conversation began with her
disintegrated life, littered with five broken marriages, and ended with the
fulfillment of worship that sent her running back home to tell her people that
she had found the source of her mending. It is vital to know that this is not
worship that is just a “spiritual” act. This is worship that takes its cue from
truth that has been tested against reality. In that combination, wonder
blossoms into fullness.
Is there a difference between this worship and worship in other religions?
Indeed, yes. At its heart and in its goals Hinduism, for example, teaches us
that we are to seek union with the divine. Why union? Because the Hindu
claims that we are part and parcel of this divine universe. The goal of the
individual is, therefore, to discover that divinity and live it out. This is the
heart of philosophical Hinduism—self-deification. One of India’s premier
philosophers stated forthrightly, “Man is God in a temporary state of self-
forgetfulness.”
This is the reason the “you” disappears in Hinduism and the meditative
process is enjoined, so that we can, as individuals, merge with the one
impersonal absolute—the capital “I,” because there is no significant other.
Union with the impersonal absolute defies language, reason, and existential
realities. It does not satisfy the longing for communion. However much one
may respect the intent of such teaching, we deceive ourselves if we believe
that it is philosophically coherent. It is not. That is why some of the most
respected Hindu philosophers and thinkers have brandished it as one of the
most contradictory systems of life’s purpose ever espoused.?11? Not only
that, Hinduism could not survive the sterility of this kind of self-deification.
Personal deities are erupted by the millions, and the temples are crowded
with people seeking to worship. No, the suggestion of inward divinity is
psychologically imprisoning, and the individual breaks away to find another.
While Hinduism goes to one extreme—the deification of the self—Islam is
at the other extreme. In Islam, the distance between God and humanity is so
vast that the “I” never gets close to the “him” in God. And because this
distance between the two is impossible to cross, worship takes on an
incredible clutter of activity, designed to bring the worshiper close.
Repetition and submission take the place of the warmth of a relationship.
One only need glimpse a Muslim at worship to see the difference. Yet, with
all that he observes and all the rules he keeps, there is never a certainty of
heaven for the common person in Islam. It is all in the will of God, they say.
One’s destiny is left at the mercy of an unknown will. When relationship is
swallowed up by rules, political power and enforcement become the means
of containment.
In the Christian message, the God who is distinct and distant came close so
that we who are weak may be made strong and may be drawn close in
communion with him, even while our identity is retained. The individual
retains his individuality while dwelling in community. The physical retains its
physicality but is transcended by the spiritual. Meaning finds its consummate
purpose.
[1]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 Christopher Morley, quoted in a column by Ruth Walker in Christian
Science Monitor, 20 November 1991.
9 G. K. Chesterton, As I Was Saying, ed. Robert Knille (Grand Rapids:
Eerdmans, 1985), 267.
10 William Temple, quoted in David Watson, I Believe in Evangelism
(Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1976), 157.
11 See Radhakrishnan in his Hindu View of Life (New Delhi, India: Indus,
1993); and Pandit Nehru on his comment on Hinduism, quoted in David
Brown, A Guide to Religions (London: S.P.C.K., 1975), 63.
[1]Geisler, N. L., & Hoffman, P. K. (2001). Why I am a Christian :
Leading thinkers explain why they believe (277). Grand Rapids, Mich.:
Baker Books.
.
User: "Roger"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 19 May 2007 05:09:06 PM
"St. Jockofgrapes" <LJ_clone-023@shotmail.com> wrote in message
news:s8CdnW_jk_IL79LbnZ2dnUVZ_qmpnZ2d@giganews.com...


"Roger" <rogerfx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:464f6eb7$0$16739$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

"Jerry Kraus" <jkraus_1999@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1179610158.014387.86150@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

On May 19, 11:01 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young. This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.

In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and, as
such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that the weak
that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must be the most
evolved religion, since it is based upon self-sacrifice and
forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the strongest man to have
lived, since He, being ultimately strong, gave to save all of us, the
ultimately weak.

Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com


Get this through your head. Evolution isn't anti-Christian. Nor is
Christianity inherently anti-Evolution. YOU are anti-evolution,
probably because it is inconsistent with a literal interpretation of
the Book of Genesis. DON'T BE SO RIGID AND LITERAL!!!!!


He's anti-evolution because he's been told to be, and is too scared to
learn anything about it himself.


Love’s Labor Won

Is it the same ignorance that promotes belief in the supernatural that
convinces those so afflicted with the idea that a LONG AND BORING AND
POINTLESS screed with cause the same delusion in others?


I have so far presented two essential components for meaning—the pursuit
of wonder and the knowledge of truth—and suggested that they are both
fulfilled in a person. I now suggest that the third component essential to
meaning is love. From the wonder of childhood to the search for truth in
adolescence, we come to the consummation of love in young adulthood.
Christopher Morley said, “If we all discovered that we had only five
minutes left to say all that we wanted to say, every telephone booth would
be occupied by people calling other people to stammer that we love
them.”?8?

The greatest institution God gave to humanity is the institution of the
family,
based on the need for unconditional love. On love and marriage, G. K.
Chesterton made this poignant observation: “They have invented a new
phrase that is a black-and-white contradiction in two words—‘free love.’
As if a lover had been, or ever could be, free. It is the nature of love
to bind
itself.”?9? Those words seem totally foreign to our disposable society:
“It is
the nature of love to bind itself.” Realistically, what passes for love
today
could be more aptly described as self-gratification or indulgence.

How strange that we call the sexual act “making love.” In actuality, if
that
act is without commitment, it is a literal and figurative denuding of love
by
which the individual is degraded to an object. In short, love is not love
when
it has been manufactured for the moment. Love is the posture of the soul,
and its entailments are binding. When love is shallow, the heart is empty,
but
if the sacrifice of love is understood, one can drink deeply from its cup
and
be completely fulfilled. The more one consumes love selfishly, the more
wretched and impoverished one becomes. But how do we know this?
Through the message of Christ.

At the heart of the gospel is a Savior who loves us and offered himself
for
us. Once more, a unique truth emerges. Even Mahatma Gandhi, who was a
Hindu, stated that the cross of Jesus constantly showed itself as an
unparalleled expression of God’s grace. Dr. E. Stanley Jones, a famed and
noted missionary to India, used to tell the story of a man, a devout Hindu
government official, to whom he was trying to explain the concept of the
cross. The man kept reiterating to Dr. Jones that he could not possibly
make sense of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the offer of salvation
by
virtue of the cross. Their conversations on this subject were circular and
seemingly unsolvable to his satisfaction.

One day, through a series of circumstances, the man involved himself in an
extramarital affair that tormented his conscience. He could live with
himself
no longer, and finally, looking into the eyes of his devoted wife, he told
her
the heartrending story of his betrayal. The hours and days of anguish and
pain became weeks of heaviness in her heart. Yet, as she weathered the
early shock, she confessed to him not only her deep sense of hurt but also
the promise of her undying commitment and love.

Suddenly, almost like a flash of lightning illuminating the night sky, he
found
himself muttering, “Now I know what it means to see love crucified by
sin.”
He bent his knee in repentance to the Christ who went to the cross for
him,
binding his heart with a new commitment to his Lord and to his wife.

If there is one description that captures the purpose of the cross, it is
this:
forgiveness that has been just and merciful at the same time. Christ did
not
die just as an example or as a martyr. He died so that the very ones who
crucified him could have a way provided for their forgiveness. The cross
conveys a message that is unquestionably unique. It stands in stark
contrast
to every other human power and human solution. This cross defines what
love’s entailments are.

But there is something more, and here we get to the crux of meaning. In
Christian terms, love does not stand merely as an emotion or even as an
expression of being reconciled to God. In a relationship with God, it
ultimately flowers into worship. It is in worship alone that wonder and
truth
coalesce and our expression prefigures the consummation of an eternal
communion. The enrichment that results from worship feeds all other
relationships and helps us to hold sacred all of life’s needed
commitments.

D. H. Lawrence was right when he said that the deepest hunger of the
human heart goes beyond love. And Thomas Wolfe was right—there is that
sense of cosmic loneliness apart from God. In Christ that loneliness is
conquered as the hungers of the human heart are met and the struggles of
the intellect are answered.

“How is that so?” one might ask. Archbishop William Temple defined
worship in these terms:

Worship is the submission of all of our nature to God. It is the
quickening of
conscience by His holiness, nourishment of mind by His truth, purifying of
imagination by His beauty, opening of the heart to His love, and
submission
of will to His purpose. All this gathered up in adoration is the greatest
of all
expressions of which we are capable.?10?

Life is bereft of meaning because of the essential fragmentation that
results
when life is viewed as nothing more than matter. But if our lives are in
truth
designed for the supreme purpose of worship, then the sacred binds our
lives and fuses every activity with meaning, even as it enables us to
resist
that which desacralizes life. Thomas Merton was right when he said that
man is not at peace with his fellow man because he is not at peace with
himself. And he is not at peace with himself because he is not at peace
with
God. That inner fragmentation is corrected only by the integrity of
worship.
It is not accidental that in one of the most notable of all Jesus’
conversations, with the woman at the well, the conversation began with her
disintegrated life, littered with five broken marriages, and ended with
the
fulfillment of worship that sent her running back home to tell her people
that
she had found the source of her mending. It is vital to know that this is
not
worship that is just a “spiritual” act. This is worship that takes its cue
from
truth that has been tested against reality. In that combination, wonder
blossoms into fullness.

Is there a difference between this worship and worship in other religions?
Indeed, yes. At its heart and in its goals Hinduism, for example, teaches
us
that we are to seek union with the divine. Why union? Because the Hindu
claims that we are part and parcel of this divine universe. The goal of
the
individual is, therefore, to discover that divinity and live it out. This
is the
heart of philosophical Hinduism—self-deification. One of India’s premier
philosophers stated forthrightly, “Man is God in a temporary state of
self-
forgetfulness.”

This is the reason the “you” disappears in Hinduism and the meditative
process is enjoined, so that we can, as individuals, merge with the one
impersonal absolute—the capital “I,” because there is no significant
other.
Union with the impersonal absolute defies language, reason, and
existential
realities. It does not satisfy the longing for communion. However much one
may respect the intent of such teaching, we deceive ourselves if we
believe
that it is philosophically coherent. It is not. That is why some of the
most
respected Hindu philosophers and thinkers have brandished it as one of the
most contradictory systems of life’s purpose ever espoused.?11? Not only
that, Hinduism could not survive the sterility of this kind of
self-deification.
Personal deities are erupted by the millions, and the temples are crowded
with people seeking to worship. No, the suggestion of inward divinity is
psychologically imprisoning, and the individual breaks away to find
another.

While Hinduism goes to one extreme—the deification of the self—Islam is
at the other extreme. In Islam, the distance between God and humanity is
so
vast that the “I” never gets close to the “him” in God. And because this
distance between the two is impossible to cross, worship takes on an
incredible clutter of activity, designed to bring the worshiper close.
Repetition and submission take the place of the warmth of a relationship.
One only need glimpse a Muslim at worship to see the difference. Yet, with
all that he observes and all the rules he keeps, there is never a
certainty of
heaven for the common person in Islam. It is all in the will of God, they
say.
One’s destiny is left at the mercy of an unknown will. When relationship
is
swallowed up by rules, political power and enforcement become the means
of containment.

In the Christian message, the God who is distinct and distant came close
so
that we who are weak may be made strong and may be drawn close in
communion with him, even while our identity is retained. The individual
retains his individuality while dwelling in community. The physical
retains its
physicality but is transcended by the spiritual. Meaning finds its
consummate
purpose.

[1]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

8 Christopher Morley, quoted in a column by Ruth Walker in Christian
Science Monitor, 20 November 1991.

9 G. K. Chesterton, As I Was Saying, ed. Robert Knille (Grand Rapids:
Eerdmans, 1985), 267.

10 William Temple, quoted in David Watson, I Believe in Evangelism
(Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1976), 157.

11 See Radhakrishnan in his Hindu View of Life (New Delhi, India: Indus,
1993); and Pandit Nehru on his comment on Hinduism, quoted in David
Brown, A Guide to Religions (London: S.P.C.K., 1975), 63.

[1]Geisler, N. L., & Hoffman, P. K. (2001). Why I am a Christian :
Leading thinkers explain why they believe (277). Grand Rapids, Mich.:
Baker Books.


.


User: "Gray Shockley"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 22 May 2007 12:08:41 AM
On May 19, 2007, Roger wrote
(in article <464f6eb7$0$16739$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>):

"Jerry Kraus" <jkraus_1999@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1179610158.014387.86150@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

On May 19, 11:01 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young. This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.

In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and, as
such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that the weak
that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must be the most
evolved religion, since it is based upon self-sacrifice and
forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the strongest man to have
lived, since He, being ultimately strong, gave to save all of us, the
ultimately weak.

Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com


Get this through your head. Evolution isn't anti-Christian. Nor is
Christianity inherently anti-Evolution. YOU are anti-evolution,
probably because it is inconsistent with a literal interpretation of
the Book of Genesis. DON'T BE SO RIGID AND LITERAL!!!!!


He's anti-evolution because he's been told to be, and is too scared to learn
anything about it himself.

Well, axe-you-all-lee, you need to understand that this "thingie" -
this Kenneth "cantwriteworthadamn" Clifton - is a direct descendent
of the Piltdown Man.
Once one understands that, a /lot/ of things start falling into
place.
Gray Shockley
--------------------------
Calvin: These are interesting times.
We don't trust the government,
We don't trust the legal system,
We don't trust the media,
and we don't trust each other!
We've undermined all authority,
and with it, the basis for replacing it!
Hobbes: "Interesting" is a mild way of putting it.
Calvin: It's like a six-year-old's dream come true.
.



User: "Anlatt the Builder"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 20 May 2007 05:33:25 PM
On May 19, 9:01 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young. This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.

In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and, as
such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that the weak
that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must be the most
evolved religion, since it is based upon self-sacrifice and
forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the strongest man to have
lived, since He, being ultimately strong, gave to save all of us, the
ultimately weak.

You, of course, never responded to the appropriate refutations of your
original post. Exactly as I - and many other people - predicted - you
went off to start a new post. One based on the assumption that the
original was completely correct, even though it was demonstrably far
off.
I do not think you understood - or want to understand - ANYTHING that
ANYBODY wrote.
For example, I gave a number of examples:
(1) Preying mantis bites her mate's head off. Not very "loving," but a
successful stratgey FOR THAT SPECIES, IN ITS ENVIRONMENT. Consistent
with evolution.
(2) Drome bee dies to protect queen, although queen wouldn't life a
wing to help the drone. But the queen bee passes down the genes of the
drone (more or less), so this is a successful stratgey for the species
in its environment. Even though the "mother" does not sacrifice for
the "child." Consistent with evolution.
(3) Wolf puts intself at risk to feed and protect the pack. Wolves are
a social species, and even if the given wolf doesn't pass its social,
"altruistic" genes down, its near relatives will. A successful
strategy for the species, given its environement. Consistent with
evolution.
So no one is saying that self-sacrifce is "most evolved" or "more
evolved" or "less evolved." Different species develop different
techniques for surviving and reproducing in the world; this is
consistent with the wild diversity we see all over; this is called
"evolution." In some species it leads to wings, in others to gills. In
some species it leads to self-sacrificing behavior, in others to
cannibalism. They are all products of evolution, brancing out in many,
many directions.
If you bothered to learn anything about evolution - which you should
do before making sweeping statements - you would know that biologists
don't talk about a feature being "most evoloved" or "least evolved."
Just about whether the feature helps survival and reproduction for
THAT species in THAT environment.
So: your original post - "love, alturism, and/or self-sacrifice among
humans or animals disproves evolution" - was sheer nonsense.
Evolutionary biologists have been studying and dealing with this
subject for decades.
People point out that obvious, demonstrable truth, but did you admit
your mistake? Did you learn anything, or go out to gather new
information?
No, instead you come up with a new post: "If self-sacrice is a product
of evolution, then Christianity must be the most EVOLVED religion."
This is sheer nonsense. Evolution ALSO results in preying-mantis
cannibalism and queen-bee child abandoning. No evolutionary biologist
would ever say that any of these traits are MORE or LESS evolved, from
a biological point of view. (They might personally prefer one over the
other, but that has nothing to do with the sicence involved.) So its
says nothing about Christianity - or any other religion - being "most
evolved." That's a meaningless concept in evolutionary biology.
(By the way, Ken, there are other religions where gods sacrificed for
mortals. Prometheus gave mortals, and, for his troubles, was chained
to a mountain with vultures tearing at this flesh - an image not
unrelated to Christ on the cross. Male fertility spirits were
regularly sacrificed to ensure a good harvest and the coming of
spring. Before talking about the uniqueness of certain features of
Christianity, you should learn something about the hisotry of
religion.)
***
Ken, ignorance is a minor problem - it can be cured. But WILLFUL
ignorance, in which you go out of the way to avoid new information or
to learn anything about the subjects you talk about, is an insult to
God, because you're not using the brain he gave you.
Continuing to repeat the same false statements about a variety of
subjects (such as evolution), when the falseness has been pointed out
to you clearly and with evidence over and over again, is a form of
lying. This is a sin, listed in the Ten Commandments.
And refusing to engage in honest discourse with people who respond to
you, either twisting their words or simply ignoring their arguments -
while sneering at people who don't respond to you - is intellectual
dishonest and cowardice.
If this is how you witness for the Christian faith - willful
ignorance, lying, cowardice - you should either:
(a) stop, before you do more damage to your cause; or
(b) admit that your are serving Satan in this regard.
Frankly, it's no wonder that you harp constantly on "once saved,
always saved." Otherwise you would have to face the possibilty that
Jesus may disapprove of your current, post-born again acitivities.
That would be scary.
.

User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 19 May 2007 05:46:13 PM
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:

A few days ago, I pointed out

Incorrectly as usual. Repeating that claim, after having it corrected
by SEVERAL people who know better than you do, makes it a LIE, liar.

how love was a problem for evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength,

No it doesn't, liar.

while the weak die off.

No it doesn't, liar.

However, I pointed out that in both
the human world and the animal world, the strong often sacrifice
themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so for their weak
young.

Which is perfectly in keeping with the theory of evolution.

This, I said, struck a blow to their foundational beliefs.

Not hardly.

In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive,

No. You got several corrections saying that evolution has little to
do with the "strong". And the point of natural selection is survival
of genes, not of individuals.

and, as such, it was a foundational PART of evolution

No. That was not claimed. It was stated that it was consistent with
evolution. Not that it was at all "foundational".

(ignoring that the weak that die off have love, too).

Not relevant. Everyone dies. Those who have help from others are
more likely to have their offspring survive to reproduce. No
guarantees. Evolution doesn't require any strategy to be guaranteed
to work

If so, Christianity must be the most evolved religion,

The theory of volution applies only to biological species. It does
not apply to individuals, to religions, to social theories, or
anything else.
Those who attempt to pretend that the theory of evolution applies to
such other things are LIARS.
Like you.
lojbab
.

User: "SueDoeCyAnts"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 19 May 2007 03:32:34 PM
on Sat 19 May 2007 09:01:07a
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> posted
in news:1179590467.746941.236050@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that
in both the human world and the animal world, the strong often
sacrifice themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so
for their weak young. This, I said, struck a blow to their
foundational beliefs.

In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and,
as such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that
the weak that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must
be the most evolved religion, since it is based upon
self-sacrifice and forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the
strongest man to have lived, since He, being ultimately strong,
gave to save all of us, the ultimately weak.

Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com

Funny how I always thought that
the simplistic evolution maxim isn't
"Survival of the Strongest"
but is instead
"Survival of the Fittest"
Fitness being defined as the individuals in a species
which manage to project the greatest amount of their DNA
into future individuals of their species.
That is a much different concept than what
you are implying connotationally with your usage of 'strongest'.
Christian Superheros always seem to win
when they are fighting against truth...
.
User: "Roger"

Title: Re: Love, a problem for evolutionists, pt 2 19 May 2007 04:25:56 PM
"SueDoeCyAnts" <pseudocy@labb.port5.com> wrote in message
news:Xns993589C4241EFOriginaliseThisThief@198.186.190.161...

on Sat 19 May 2007 09:01:07a
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> posted
in news:1179590467.746941.236050@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:

A few days ago, I pointed out how love was a problem for
evolutionists. Evolution says that the strong survive by their
strength, while the weak die off. However, I pointed out that
in both the human world and the animal world, the strong often
sacrifice themselves for the weak, even parent animals doing so
for their weak young. This, I said, struck a blow to their
foundational beliefs.

In response, I got a lot of replies that said that love was a
characteristic of the strong that caused them to survive, and,
as such, it was a foundational PART of evolution (ignoring that
the weak that die off have love, too). If so, Christianity must
be the most evolved religion, since it is based upon
self-sacrifice and forgiveness; and, Jesus must have been the
strongest man to have lived, since He, being ultimately strong,
gave to save all of us, the ultimately weak.

Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com


Funny how I always thought that
the simplistic evolution maxim isn't

"Survival of the Strongest"
but is instead
"Survival of the Fittest"

Fitness being defined as the individuals in a species
which manage to project the greatest amount of their DNA
into future individuals of their species.

That is a much different concept than what
you are implying connotationally with your usage of 'strongest'.

Christian Superheros always seem to win
when they are fighting against truth...

That's the only fight they fight. When your whole belief systems is based on
lies, what else can they do?
.



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