| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"Bill Rood" |
| Date: |
13 May 2007 04:07:34 PM |
| Object: |
Marine brass: no need to investigate deaths of kids at Haditha |
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US military doctrine and rules of engagement foster a callous disregard
for civilian deaths. This is the real root of the Iraqi insurgency,
which got going in earnest after the Fallujah school massacre in April,
2003. Excerpt from article:
"Viewed collectively, testimony from the Marines that they did not see
the deaths of women and children as possibly needing investigation
reveals a callous and jaded response to civilian deaths, said Gary
Solis, a former Marine Corps prosecutor and judge who teaches law of war
at Georgetown University Law Center.
"'The fact we have repeatedly heard senior officers say it wasn't a blip
on their radar tells us a lot about the war in Iraq and the unfortunate
mind-set that has developed,' Solis said. 'That this number of
noncombatants can be killed and not raise an eyebrow speaks volumes
about our war.'"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070513/ap_on_re_us/marines_haditha
This is not your father's US military.
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US military doctrine and rules of engagement foster a callous disregard
for civilian deaths. This is the real root of the Iraqi insurgency,
which got going in earnest after the Fallujah school massacre in April,
2003. Excerpt from article:<br>
<br>
"Viewed collectively, testimony from the Marines that they did not
see the deaths of women and children as possibly needing investigation
reveals a callous and jaded response to civilian deaths, said Gary
Solis, a former Marine Corps prosecutor and judge who teaches law of
war at Georgetown University Law Center.
<p>"'The fact we have repeatedly heard senior officers say it wasn't a
blip on their radar tells us a lot about the war in Iraq and the
unfortunate mind-set that has developed,' Solis said. 'That this number
of noncombatants can be killed and not raise an eyebrow speaks volumes
about our war.'"<br>
<a
href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070513/ap_on_re_us/marines_haditha">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070513/ap_on_re_us/marines_haditha</a><br>
</p>
<b>This is not your father's US military</b>.<br>
<br>
<br>
</body>
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| User: "J Carroll" |
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| Title: Re: Marine brass: no need to investigate deaths of kids at Haditha |
13 May 2007 05:19:14 PM |
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No it isn't and it's living proof that an all volunteer military isn't =
worth a *****.
--=20
John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
"Bill Rood" <wjrood@magnaspeed.net> wrote in message =
news:46477E16.3040605@magnaspeed.net...
US military doctrine and rules of engagement foster a callous =
disregard for civilian deaths. This is the real root of the Iraqi =
insurgency, which got going in earnest after the Fallujah school =
massacre in April, 2003. Excerpt from article:
"Viewed collectively, testimony from the Marines that they did not see =
the deaths of women and children as possibly needing investigation =
reveals a callous and jaded response to civilian deaths, said Gary =
Solis, a former Marine Corps prosecutor and judge who teaches law of war =
at Georgetown University Law Center.=20
"'The fact we have repeatedly heard senior officers say it wasn't a =
blip on their radar tells us a lot about the war in Iraq and the =
unfortunate mind-set that has developed,' Solis said. 'That this number =
of noncombatants can be killed and not raise an eyebrow speaks volumes =
about our war.'"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070513/ap_on_re_us/marines_haditha
This is not your father's US military.
------=_NextPart_000_00A9_01C79572.1167E3A0
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<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>No it isn't and it's living proof that =
an all=20
volunteer military isn't worth a *****.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>-- <BR> =
John R.=20
Carroll<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.machiningsolution.com">www.machiningsolution.com</A></=
DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Bill Rood" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:wjrood@magnaspeed.net">wjrood@magnaspeed.net</A>> =
wrote in=20
message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:46477E16.3040605@magnaspeed.net">news:46477E16.3040605@magna=
speed.net</A>...</DIV>US=20
military doctrine and rules of engagement foster a callous disregard =
for=20
civilian deaths. This is the real root of the Iraqi insurgency, which =
got=20
going in earnest after the Fallujah school massacre in April, =
2003. =20
Excerpt from article:<BR><BR>"Viewed collectively, testimony from the =
Marines=20
that they did not see the deaths of women and children as possibly =
needing=20
investigation reveals a callous and jaded response to civilian deaths, =
said=20
Gary Solis, a former Marine Corps prosecutor and judge who teaches law =
of war=20
at Georgetown University Law Center.=20
<P>"'The fact we have repeatedly heard senior officers say it wasn't a =
blip on=20
their radar tells us a lot about the war in Iraq and the unfortunate =
mind-set=20
that has developed,' Solis said. 'That this number of noncombatants =
can be=20
killed and not raise an eyebrow speaks volumes about our war.'"<BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070513/ap_on_re_us/marines_haditha">=
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070513/ap_on_re_us/marines_haditha</A><BR></=
P><B>This=20
is not your father's US =
military</B>.<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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| User: "Bill Rood" |
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| Title: Re: Marine brass: no need to investigate deaths of kids at Haditha |
13 May 2007 11:05:06 PM |
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J Carroll wrote:
No it isn't and it's living proof that an all volunteer military isn't
worth a *****.
I don't think being all volunteer is the root of the problem. I think
its routine use to occupy foreign countries is the fundamental problem,
though being all volunteer probably compounds the problem.
For 150 years, the US had an all volunteer peace time military. Until
after WW II, the only time conscription was used was during war. It was
mainly conscripts who went to Vietnam, and things got pretty brutal.
That's because Vietnam was essentially an occupation, not a conventional
war. I don't think officers during WW II would have had such a cavalier
attitude toward civilian deaths.
--
John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com <http://www.machiningsolution.com>
"Bill Rood" <wjrood@magnaspeed.net <mailto:wjrood@magnaspeed.net>>
wrote in message news:46477E16.3040605@magnaspeed.net...
US military doctrine and rules of engagement foster a callous
disregard for civilian deaths. This is the real root of the Iraqi
insurgency, which got going in earnest after the Fallujah school
massacre in April, 2003. Excerpt from article:
"Viewed collectively, testimony from the Marines that they did not
see the deaths of women and children as possibly needing
investigation reveals a callous and jaded response to civilian
deaths, said Gary Solis, a former Marine Corps prosecutor and judge
who teaches law of war at Georgetown University Law Center.
"'The fact we have repeatedly heard senior officers say it wasn't a
blip on their radar tells us a lot about the war in Iraq and the
unfortunate mind-set that has developed,' Solis said. 'That this
number of noncombatants can be killed and not raise an eyebrow
speaks volumes about our war.'"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070513/ap_on_re_us/marines_haditha
This is not your father's US military.
.
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| User: "J Carroll" |
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| Title: Re: Marine brass: no need to investigate deaths of kids at Haditha |
13 May 2007 11:29:02 PM |
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Bill Rood wrote:
J Carroll wrote:
No it isn't and it's living proof that an all volunteer military
isn't worth a *****.
I don't think being all volunteer is the root of the problem. I think
its routine use to occupy foreign countries is the fundamental
problem, though being all volunteer probably compounds the problem.
For 150 years, the US had an all volunteer peace time military. Until
after WW II, the only time conscription was used was during war.
The results of this blending were profound, and not just for those actually
in service.
An all volunteer force has been treated as an attack dog by the Bush
administration, and because they are all volunteers, a disposable one.
A significant percentage of conscripts might have made a difference both to
Bush and the country at large.
I've also always been a proponent of universal military service. Iraq would
look a lot different were there large numbers of trained civilians to
augment regular and Guard forces. The psychological effect would be
significant and beneficial.
It
was mainly conscripts who went to Vietnam, and things got pretty
brutal. That's because Vietnam was essentially an occupation, not a
conventional war. I don't think officers during WW II would have had
such a cavalier attitude toward civilian deaths.
They didn't and neither, really, did officers in general during Viet Nam.
The difficulty, however, to distinguish the enemy as distinct from the
civilian population was divisive and pervasive.
Language is also a formidable barrier or tool of the enemy depending on
circumstances. Our troops in Iraq now struggle with all of these issues and
they are as frustrated as we were then. They were all human beings before
they became professional warriors and regardless their training, the human
will out in time.
Frankly, our troops are being very poorly lead at the highest levels. The
"carreer" military has transformed itself into the "corporate" military if
you know what I mean. Every light Colonel wants to make General and speaking
truth to power won't get you there today. This isn't universally true of
course. There are some truly fine officers. They seem, however, not to be
selected these days except in a few cases, and it's political.
--
John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
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| User: "Bill Rood" |
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| Title: Re: Marine brass: no need to investigate deaths of kids at Haditha |
15 May 2007 12:55:14 AM |
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J Carroll wrote:
Bill Rood wrote:
J Carroll wrote:
No it isn't and it's living proof that an all volunteer military
isn't worth a *****.
I don't think being all volunteer is the root of the problem. I think
its routine use to occupy foreign countries is the fundamental
problem, though being all volunteer probably compounds the problem.
For 150 years, the US had an all volunteer peace time military. Until
after WW II, the only time conscription was used was during war.
The results of this blending were profound, and not just for those actually
in service.
An all volunteer force has been treated as an attack dog by the Bush
administration, and because they are all volunteers, a disposable one.
A significant percentage of conscripts might have made a difference both to
Bush and the country at large.
I've also always been a proponent of universal military service. Iraq would
look a lot different were there large numbers of trained civilians to
augment regular and Guard forces. The psychological effect would be
significant and beneficial.
If we had conscription there would be 500,000 troops in Iraq right now.
That might even be enough to "win", which would encourage even more
Imperial aggression in the future. A better alternative is to reduce the
size of the professional military and prohibit deployment of Guard
troops outside the US unless there's a formal declaration of war. That
would make it impossible for us to conduct all this aggression on
foreign countries. A pared down professional military, using the same
doctrine, firepower etc as we have today, would be capable of routing
any conventional foreign military that was truly threatening invasion of
the homeland. Unconventional, asymmetric attackers can not usually be
countered militarily. They must be fought with good police work. The
9-11 attackers were an exception; they could and should have been
countered by an alert air defense system. What good is our friggin Air
Force if it couldn't protect us on 9-11?
It
was mainly conscripts who went to Vietnam, and things got pretty
brutal. That's because Vietnam was essentially an occupation, not a
conventional war. I don't think officers during WW II would have had
such a cavalier attitude toward civilian deaths.
I'd like to correct myself here. I still don't think WW II ground troop
officers had a cavalier attitude, but Air Corps brass certainly weren't
bothered by civilian deaths in the fire-bombings of Dresden and Tokyo.
They didn't and neither, really, did officers in general during Viet Nam.
Again, probably true of Army and Marines, with exceptions. I'm not so
sure of Air Force, though I understand there were a handful of pilots
who refused missions over Cambodia.
The difficulty, however, to distinguish the enemy as distinct from the
civilian population was divisive and pervasive.
That was precisely my point. Vietnam was essentially an occupation of a
resisting population. That led unavoidably to atrocities no matter how
good and humane the officers and men were when they first got over
there. My Lai wasn't the only one. There was also Phoenix and there were
free-fire zones all over. It didn't matter that the enlisted men were
largely conscripts or those who volunteered to avoid conscription. Note
I'm not saying all soldiers in Vietnam were war criminals or anything of
the sort. It's the nature of war and particularly of occupations that
led inevitably to atrocities.
Language is also a formidable barrier or tool of the enemy depending on
circumstances. Our troops in Iraq now struggle with all of these issues and
they are as frustrated as we were then. They were all human beings before
they became professional warriors and regardless their training, the human
will out in time.
Frankly, our troops are being very poorly lead at the highest levels. The
"carreer" military has transformed itself into the "corporate" military if
you know what I mean.
The officer corps has always been all volunteer. It's the use in wars of
occupation that's the problem. We killed lots of civilian Fillipinos
1899-1905.
Every light Colonel wants to make General and speaking
truth to power won't get you there today. This isn't universally true of
course. There are some truly fine officers. They seem, however, not to be
selected these days except in a few cases, and it's political.
.
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| User: "Docky Wocky" |
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| Title: Re: Marine brass: no need to investigate deaths of kids at Haditha |
13 May 2007 10:23:57 PM |
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j carroll sez:
" US military doctrine and rules of engagement foster a callous =
disregard for civilian deaths..."
___________________________________
Yeah! Especially when the suckers snipe at US military, blow them up, =
run and try to hide right in their own neighborhood, then complain when =
they get shot to *****.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>j carroll sez:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>" US military doctrine and =
rules of=20
engagement foster a callous disregard for civilian =
deaths..."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>___________________________________</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yeah! Especially when the suckers snipe =
at US=20
military, blow them up, run and try to hide right in their own =
neighborhood, then complain when they get shot to *****.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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| User: "Wayne H. Wilhelm" |
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| Title: Re: Marine brass: no need to investigate deaths of kids at Haditha |
22 May 2007 01:25:25 AM |
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If there is in fact a lack of interest in investigating civilian deaths =
in Iraq, it could also mean the US Military has already taken extensive =
steps to minimize civilian casualties, which it has; and as we know, =
continued efforts by liberal nutcakes to blast every civilian death =
while knowing full well the terrorists use civilians as body armor; =
Well, we know where the problem lies and it isn't with our military.
Docky Wocky" <mrchuck@lst.net> wrote in message =
news:hDQ1i.6119$yy6.1309@trnddc05...
j carroll sez:
" US military doctrine and rules of engagement foster a callous =
disregard for civilian deaths..."
___________________________________
Yeah! Especially when the suckers snipe at US military, blow them up, =
run and try to hide right in their own neighborhood, then complain when =
they get shot to *****.
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If there is in fact a lack of interest =
in=20
investigating civilian deaths in Iraq, it could also mean the US =
Military has=20
already taken extensive steps to minimize civilian casualties, which it=20
has; and as we know, continued efforts by liberal nutcakes to blast =
every=20
civilian death while knowing full well the terrorists use civilians as =
body=20
armor; Well, we know where the problem lies and it isn't with our=20
military.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Docky Wocky" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:mrchuck@lst.net">mrchuck@lst.net</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
href=3D"news:hDQ1i.6119$yy6.1309@trnddc05">news:hDQ1i.6119$yy6.1309@trndd=
c05</A>...</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>j carroll sez:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>" US military doctrine =
and rules of=20
engagement foster a callous disregard for civilian =
deaths..."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>___________________________________</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yeah! Especially when the suckers =
snipe at US=20
military, blow them up, run and try to hide right in their =
own=20
neighborhood, then complain when they get shot to *****.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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| User: "J Carroll" |
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| Title: Re: Marine brass: no need to investigate deaths of kids at Haditha |
13 May 2007 10:26:41 PM |
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"Docky Wocky" <mrchuck@lst.net> wrote in message =
news:hDQ1i.6119$yy6.1309@trnddc05...
j carroll sez:
" US military doctrine and rules of engagement foster a callous =
disregard for civilian deaths..."
___________________________________
Yeah! Especially when the suckers snipe at US military, blow them up, =
run and try to hide right in their own neighborhood, then complain when =
they get shot to *****.
I didn't write that.
I wrote this.
"No it isn't and it's living proof that an all volunteer military isn't =
worth a *****."
The United States needs to find a way to blend conscripts into a =
professional core force.
--=20
John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.machiningsolution.com"></A></DIV>"Docky =
Wocky" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:mrchuck@lst.net">mrchuck@lst.net</A>> wrote in message =
<A=20
href=3D"news:hDQ1i.6119$yy6.1309@trnddc05">news:hDQ1i.6119$yy6.1309@trndd=
c05</A>...</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>j carroll sez:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>" US military doctrine =
and rules of=20
engagement foster a callous disregard for civilian =
deaths..."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>___________________________________</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yeah! Especially when the suckers =
snipe at US=20
military, blow them up, run and try to hide right in their =
own=20
neighborhood, then complain when they get shot to *****.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>I didn't=20
write that.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I wrote this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"No it isn't and it's living proof that =
an all=20
volunteer military isn't worth a *****."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The United States needs to find a way =
to blend=20
conscripts into a professional core force.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>-- <BR> =
John R.=20
Carroll<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.machiningsolution.com">www.machiningsolution.com</A></=
DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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