New Evidence Undermines Swiftboat Ad



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Topic: Politics > Politics-USA
User: "dkat"
Date: 21 Aug 2004 03:09:47 PM
Object: New Evidence Undermines Swiftboat Ad
On March 13, 1969, in the Bay Hap River, did Lieut. John Kerry, captain of
Swift boat PCF-94, defy enemy fire and heroically save the life of First
Lieut. Jim Rassmann, who had been blown off Kerry's boat into the water by a
mine explosion? Or did Kerry, during this mission involving five Swift
boats, merely help a comrade return to his boat at a time of relative calm?
A band of anti-Kerry veterans funded by Republican donors--who call
themselves Swift Boat Veterans for Truth--have claimed that there was no
enemy fire when Kerry pulled Rassmann into his boat and that Kerry did not
deserve the Bronze Star he won for this incident. Although the citation for
Kerry's Bronze Star notes he rescued Rassmann in the face of sniper fire and
Kerry, Rassmann and PCF-94 crew members all say Rassmann was under fire when
Kerry pulled him aboard, the anti-Kerry vets insist that was not how it
happened, that there was no enemy fire. Their campaign against Kerry took a
hit yesterday when The Washington Post disclosed that the military records
of Larry Thurlow--a leader of the anti-Kerry outfit who also won a Bronze
Star for actions taken during this engagement--contradict Thurlow's claim
that there was no enemy fire at the time. (See here.) Military records
obtained by The Nation provide more evidence that there was enemy fire
during this episode.
Three Navy men won Bronze Stars for their actions that day: Kerry, Thurlow,
and radarman first class Robert Eugene Lambert, a petty officer in the boat
captained by Thurlow. The citation for Lambert's Bronze Star--previously
undisclosed but obtained today under the Freedom of Information Act from the
National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis--repeats the description of
the incident included in the citation for Thurlow's Bronze Star: "all units
came under small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks."
Lambert's citation also notes that Lambert--who assumed command of PCF-51
after Thurlow went to assist another Swift boat damaged by a mine--"directed
accurate suppressing fire at the enemy." The citation praises Lambert's
"coolness, professionalism and courage under fire."
In an affidavit Thurlow signed last month, he said "no return fire
occurred....I never heard a shot." He said to the Post, "I am here to state
that we weren't under fire." But the individual citations for Thurlow, Kerry
and Lambert each refer to enemy fire. And the Lambert citation also suggests
there was a need for his boat to engage in "suppressing fire."
Asked about the discrepancy between his own account and his citation,
Thurlow, who was the senior skipper in the flotilla involved in this
engagement, said that Kerry was often able to present his own (presumably
self-serving) descriptions of events to superiors. But neither Thurlow nor
the Swift Boat group has substantiated this claim. And did Kerry rig not
only his own award recommendation but those of Thurlow and Lambert? In the
award recommendation for Thurlow's Bronze Star, Lambert--not Kerry--is
listed as the eyewitness. (And Del Sandusky, a crew mate of Kerry, was the
eyewitness listed in the award recommendation for Kerry. According to the
National Personnel Records Center, Lambert's file no longer contains the
award recommendation for his Bronze Star.)
Kerry has posted his award citation on his web site (click here), and
Thurlow's Bronze Star citation was posted by the Post (click here).
Lambert's citation describes what seems to have been a harrowing situation.
It reads in full:
"For meritorious achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN
engaged in armed conflict against Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuyen
Province, Republic of Vietnam on 13 March 1969. Inshore Patrol Craft [PCF]
51, with Petty Officer Lambert serving as Leading Petty Officer, was
conducting a SEA LORDS operation in the Bay Hap river with four other boats.
The boats were exiting the river when a mine detonated under another Inshore
Patrol Craft, inflicting heavy damage to the boat and wounding the entire
crew. At the same time, all units came under small arms and automatic
weapons fire from the river banks. Inshore Patrol Craft 51 immediately
proceeded to aid the damaged Inshore Patrol Craft, where the
Officer-in-Charge [Larry Thurlow] leaped aboard to render assistance. Petty
Officer LAMBERT assumed command of Inshore Patrol Craft 51 and directed
accurate suppressing fire at the enemy. While administering first aid to the
crew of the damaged Inshore Patrol Craft, Inshore Patrol Craft 51's
Officer-in-Charge was knocked overboard. Petty Officer LAMBERT, without
hesitation, directed Inshore Patrol Craft 51 alongside his
Officer-in-Charge, where, from an exposed position and with complete
disregard for his personal safety, he pulled him aboard. Petty Officer
LAMBERT then returned his Officer-in-Charge to the aid of the damaged
Inshore Patrol Craft and remained in command of Inshore Patrol Craft 51
until all units cleared the river. Petty Officer LAMBERT's coolness,
professionalism and courage under fire significantly contributed to the
rescue of his Officer-in-Charge and the damaged Inshore Patrol Craft and
were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval
Service."
Lambert, a career Navy man who served on active duty from 1957 to 1978,
could not be located. But his records offer more support for Kerry's account
(which, by the way, is the official account). And the credibility of the
Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has been challenged on several fronts. Jerome
Corsi, the co-author of the book the group is promoting, Unfit for Command,
recently acknowledged that he has posted anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and
anti-Semitic comments on a conservative website. Others involved with the
anti-Kerry outfit have flip-flopped and altered their stories. For instance,
George Elliott, a leading member of the group who was the commander who
signed the recommendation for Kerry's Bronze Star, campaigned with Kerry in
1996, defending him after questions were raised about Kerry's Silver Star.
(Kerry received this medal for chasing down and killing an enemy soldier on
February 28, 1969.) And in 1969, Elliot wrote Kerry's fitness report and
noted, "In a combat environment often requiring independent decisive action,
Lt. j.g. Kerry was unsurpassed." Now he says Kerry lied about his service in
Vietnam. And today the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth unveiled a new ad that
assailed Kerry for having criticized the conduct of American soldiers in
Vietnam. The ad claims Kerry, during his famous testimony before the Senate
Foreign Relations Committee, accused his fellow soldiers of having committed
atrocities. But Kerry, then a leader of the movement against the Vietnam
War, was reporting what other soldiers had said they had done. (Today the
Kerry campaign filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission
accusing the group of illegally coordinating with the Bush campaign.)
The latest volley from the Swift Vets shows what motivates these anti-Kerry
veterans. They remain mad at him for opposing the war and addressing its
worst aspects. As for what happened on March 13, 1969, the issue is whether
to accept the accounts of veterans who are angry with Kerry or the
documentary evidence that is seconded by Rassmann, a Republican, and Kerry's
crew mates. Lambert's citation offers more reason to wonder about the Swift
Boat group's version of events and to question its dedication to the truth.
Reporting assistance for this story was provided by Shane Goldmacher
********
When you're done reading this article, check out David Corn's WEBLOG at
www.davidcorn.com.
********
DON'T FORGET ABOUT DAVID CORN'S BOOK, The Lies of George W. Bush: Mastering
the Politics of Deception (Crown Publishers). A NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER!
An UPDATED and EXPANDED EDITION is NOW AVAILABLE in PAPERBACK. The
Washington Post says, "This is a fierce polemic, but it is based on an
immense amount of research....[I]t does present a serious case for the
president's partisans to answer....Readers can hardly avoid
drawing...troubling conclusions from Corn's painstaking indictment." The Los
Angeles Times says, "David Corn's The Lies of George W. Bush is as
hard-hitting an attack as has been leveled against the current president. He
compares what Bush said with the known facts of a given situation and ends
up making a persuasive case." The Library Journal says, "Corn chronicles to
devastating effect the lies, falsehoods, and misrepresentations....Corn has
painstakingly unearthed a bill of particulars against the president that is
as damaging as it is thorough." And GEORGE W. BUSH SAYS, "I'd like to tell
you I've read [ The Lies of George W. Bush], but that'd be a lie."
For more information and a sample, go to the official website:
www.bushlies.com . And check out Corn's blog on the site.
.

User: "billwg"

Title: Re: New Evidence Undermines Swiftboat Ad 21 Aug 2004 06:50:08 PM
I personally think that Kerry's simply being on a PCF at that time, given
his circumstances, is worthy of praise, regardless of what he did there and
what his attitude might be regarding getting shot at by someone trying to
kill him.
I was a US Naval Reserve officer in that timeframe, going through NROTC a
year or two before Kerry. We had a fairly wide choice of duty station for
what would be our entire military obligation in those days and it was easy
to choose a ship based on the East Coast and unlikely to be involved in any
dirty work in Viet Nam. This was not WWII and it was very easy to avoid
being in-country. Kerry had to have pursued the opportunity just as Bush
managed to avoid being sent to such a place.
I think that experience is something that I would want the PotUS to have,
knowing that he would understand a commitment of troops on a personal level
and so realize the significance of the act.
"dkat" <dkat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f_NVc.3228$Nk4.2746240@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...


On March 13, 1969, in the Bay Hap River, did Lieut. John Kerry, captain of
Swift boat PCF-94, defy enemy fire and heroically save the life of First
Lieut. Jim Rassmann, who had been blown off Kerry's boat into the water by

a

mine explosion? Or did Kerry, during this mission involving five Swift
boats, merely help a comrade return to his boat at a time of relative

calm?

A band of anti-Kerry veterans funded by Republican donors--who call
themselves Swift Boat Veterans for Truth--have claimed that there was no
enemy fire when Kerry pulled Rassmann into his boat and that Kerry did not
deserve the Bronze Star he won for this incident. Although the citation

for

Kerry's Bronze Star notes he rescued Rassmann in the face of sniper fire

and

Kerry, Rassmann and PCF-94 crew members all say Rassmann was under fire

when

Kerry pulled him aboard, the anti-Kerry vets insist that was not how it
happened, that there was no enemy fire. Their campaign against Kerry took

a

hit yesterday when The Washington Post disclosed that the military records
of Larry Thurlow--a leader of the anti-Kerry outfit who also won a Bronze
Star for actions taken during this engagement--contradict Thurlow's claim
that there was no enemy fire at the time. (See here.) Military records
obtained by The Nation provide more evidence that there was enemy fire
during this episode.
Three Navy men won Bronze Stars for their actions that day: Kerry,

Thurlow,

and radarman first class Robert Eugene Lambert, a petty officer in the

boat

captained by Thurlow. The citation for Lambert's Bronze Star--previously
undisclosed but obtained today under the Freedom of Information Act from

the

National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis--repeats the description of
the incident included in the citation for Thurlow's Bronze Star: "all

units

came under small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks."
Lambert's citation also notes that Lambert--who assumed command of PCF-51
after Thurlow went to assist another Swift boat damaged by a

mine--"directed

accurate suppressing fire at the enemy." The citation praises Lambert's
"coolness, professionalism and courage under fire."
In an affidavit Thurlow signed last month, he said "no return fire
occurred....I never heard a shot." He said to the Post, "I am here to

state

that we weren't under fire." But the individual citations for Thurlow,

Kerry

and Lambert each refer to enemy fire. And the Lambert citation also

suggests

there was a need for his boat to engage in "suppressing fire."
Asked about the discrepancy between his own account and his citation,
Thurlow, who was the senior skipper in the flotilla involved in this
engagement, said that Kerry was often able to present his own (presumably
self-serving) descriptions of events to superiors. But neither Thurlow nor
the Swift Boat group has substantiated this claim. And did Kerry rig not
only his own award recommendation but those of Thurlow and Lambert? In the
award recommendation for Thurlow's Bronze Star, Lambert--not Kerry--is
listed as the eyewitness. (And Del Sandusky, a crew mate of Kerry, was the
eyewitness listed in the award recommendation for Kerry. According to the
National Personnel Records Center, Lambert's file no longer contains the
award recommendation for his Bronze Star.)
Kerry has posted his award citation on his web site (click here), and
Thurlow's Bronze Star citation was posted by the Post (click here).
Lambert's citation describes what seems to have been a harrowing

situation.

It reads in full:
"For meritorious achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN
engaged in armed conflict against Viet Cong communist aggressors in An

Xuyen

Province, Republic of Vietnam on 13 March 1969. Inshore Patrol Craft [PCF]
51, with Petty Officer Lambert serving as Leading Petty Officer, was
conducting a SEA LORDS operation in the Bay Hap river with four other

boats.

The boats were exiting the river when a mine detonated under another

Inshore

Patrol Craft, inflicting heavy damage to the boat and wounding the entire
crew. At the same time, all units came under small arms and automatic
weapons fire from the river banks. Inshore Patrol Craft 51 immediately
proceeded to aid the damaged Inshore Patrol Craft, where the
Officer-in-Charge [Larry Thurlow] leaped aboard to render assistance.

Petty

Officer LAMBERT assumed command of Inshore Patrol Craft 51 and directed
accurate suppressing fire at the enemy. While administering first aid to

the

crew of the damaged Inshore Patrol Craft, Inshore Patrol Craft 51's
Officer-in-Charge was knocked overboard. Petty Officer LAMBERT, without
hesitation, directed Inshore Patrol Craft 51 alongside his
Officer-in-Charge, where, from an exposed position and with complete
disregard for his personal safety, he pulled him aboard. Petty Officer
LAMBERT then returned his Officer-in-Charge to the aid of the damaged
Inshore Patrol Craft and remained in command of Inshore Patrol Craft 51
until all units cleared the river. Petty Officer LAMBERT's coolness,
professionalism and courage under fire significantly contributed to the
rescue of his Officer-in-Charge and the damaged Inshore Patrol Craft and
were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval
Service."
Lambert, a career Navy man who served on active duty from 1957 to 1978,
could not be located. But his records offer more support for Kerry's

account

(which, by the way, is the official account). And the credibility of the
Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has been challenged on several fronts.

Jerome

Corsi, the co-author of the book the group is promoting, Unfit for

Command,

recently acknowledged that he has posted anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and
anti-Semitic comments on a conservative website. Others involved with the
anti-Kerry outfit have flip-flopped and altered their stories. For

instance,

George Elliott, a leading member of the group who was the commander who
signed the recommendation for Kerry's Bronze Star, campaigned with Kerry

in

1996, defending him after questions were raised about Kerry's Silver Star.
(Kerry received this medal for chasing down and killing an enemy soldier

on

February 28, 1969.) And in 1969, Elliot wrote Kerry's fitness report and
noted, "In a combat environment often requiring independent decisive

action,

Lt. j.g. Kerry was unsurpassed." Now he says Kerry lied about his service

in

Vietnam. And today the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth unveiled a new ad

that

assailed Kerry for having criticized the conduct of American soldiers in
Vietnam. The ad claims Kerry, during his famous testimony before the

Senate

Foreign Relations Committee, accused his fellow soldiers of having

committed

atrocities. But Kerry, then a leader of the movement against the Vietnam
War, was reporting what other soldiers had said they had done. (Today the
Kerry campaign filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission
accusing the group of illegally coordinating with the Bush campaign.)
The latest volley from the Swift Vets shows what motivates these

anti-Kerry

veterans. They remain mad at him for opposing the war and addressing its
worst aspects. As for what happened on March 13, 1969, the issue is

whether

to accept the accounts of veterans who are angry with Kerry or the
documentary evidence that is seconded by Rassmann, a Republican, and

Kerry's

crew mates. Lambert's citation offers more reason to wonder about the

Swift

Boat group's version of events and to question its dedication to the

truth.

Reporting assistance for this story was provided by Shane Goldmacher
********
When you're done reading this article, check out David Corn's WEBLOG at
www.davidcorn.com.
********
DON'T FORGET ABOUT DAVID CORN'S BOOK, The Lies of George W. Bush:

Mastering

the Politics of Deception (Crown Publishers). A NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER!
An UPDATED and EXPANDED EDITION is NOW AVAILABLE in PAPERBACK. The
Washington Post says, "This is a fierce polemic, but it is based on an
immense amount of research....[I]t does present a serious case for the
president's partisans to answer....Readers can hardly avoid
drawing...troubling conclusions from Corn's painstaking indictment." The

Los

Angeles Times says, "David Corn's The Lies of George W. Bush is as
hard-hitting an attack as has been leveled against the current president.

He

compares what Bush said with the known facts of a given situation and ends
up making a persuasive case." The Library Journal says, "Corn chronicles

to

devastating effect the lies, falsehoods, and misrepresentations....Corn

has

painstakingly unearthed a bill of particulars against the president that

is

as damaging as it is thorough." And GEORGE W. BUSH SAYS, "I'd like to tell
you I've read [ The Lies of George W. Bush], but that'd be a lie."
For more information and a sample, go to the official website:
www.bushlies.com . And check out Corn's blog on the site.



.
User: "hol99"

Title: Re: New Evidence Undermines Swiftboat Ad 21 Aug 2004 09:03:51 PM
"billwg" <billw@twcf.rr.com> wrote in message
news:QcRVc.50173$wM.10917@twister.tampabay.rr.com...

I personally think that Kerry's simply being on a PCF at that time, given
his circumstances, is worthy of praise, regardless of what he did there

and

what his attitude might be regarding getting shot at by someone trying to
kill him.

I was a US Naval Reserve officer in that timeframe, going through NROTC a
year or two before Kerry. We had a fairly wide choice of duty station for
what would be our entire military obligation in those days and it was easy
to choose a ship based on the East Coast and unlikely to be involved in

any

dirty work in Viet Nam. This was not WWII and it was very easy to avoid
being in-country. Kerry had to have pursued the opportunity just as Bush
managed to avoid being sent to such a place.

I think that experience is something that I would want the PotUS to have,
knowing that he would understand a commitment of troops on a personal

level

and so realize the significance of the act.

How do you feel about the protesting??
Dave
.
User: "qwerty"

Title: Re: New Evidence Undermines Swiftboat Ad 21 Aug 2004 09:12:42 PM
"hol99" <noone@youknow.com> wrote in message
news:A4TVc.536$L94.389@fed1read07...


"billwg" <billw@twcf.rr.com> wrote in message
news:QcRVc.50173$wM.10917@twister.tampabay.rr.com...

I personally think that Kerry's simply being on a PCF at that time,

given

his circumstances, is worthy of praise, regardless of what he did there

and

what his attitude might be regarding getting shot at by someone trying

to

kill him.

I was a US Naval Reserve officer in that timeframe, going through NROTC

a

year or two before Kerry. We had a fairly wide choice of duty station

for

what would be our entire military obligation in those days and it was

easy

to choose a ship based on the East Coast and unlikely to be involved in

any

dirty work in Viet Nam. This was not WWII and it was very easy to avoid
being in-country. Kerry had to have pursued the opportunity just as

Bush

managed to avoid being sent to such a place.

I think that experience is something that I would want the PotUS to

have,

knowing that he would understand a commitment of troops on a personal

level

and so realize the significance of the act.


How do you feel about the protesting??

That it's guaranteed in the 1st amendment.
.
User: "hol99"

Title: Re: New Evidence Undermines Swiftboat Ad 23 Aug 2004 05:00:27 PM
"qwerty" <nospam@all.noway.com> wrote in message
news:tiTVc.6344$QJ3.2693@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...


"hol99" <noone@youknow.com> wrote in message
news:A4TVc.536$L94.389@fed1read07...


"billwg" <billw@twcf.rr.com> wrote in message
news:QcRVc.50173$wM.10917@twister.tampabay.rr.com...

I personally think that Kerry's simply being on a PCF at that time,

given

his circumstances, is worthy of praise, regardless of what he did

there

and

what his attitude might be regarding getting shot at by someone trying

to

kill him.

I was a US Naval Reserve officer in that timeframe, going through

NROTC

a

year or two before Kerry. We had a fairly wide choice of duty station

for

what would be our entire military obligation in those days and it was

easy

to choose a ship based on the East Coast and unlikely to be involved

in

any

dirty work in Viet Nam. This was not WWII and it was very easy to

avoid

being in-country. Kerry had to have pursued the opportunity just as

Bush

managed to avoid being sent to such a place.

I think that experience is something that I would want the PotUS to

have,

knowing that he would understand a commitment of troops on a personal

level

and so realize the significance of the act.


How do you feel about the protesting??


That it's guaranteed in the 1st amendment.

I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I honestly wanted to know what you thought
of it. It's not that big of an issue to me. If anything, it's a positive for
Kerry that he took a stand against that, IMO. I never went to VietNam (too
young) but I was a Marine for 5 years (the active part). I've pretty much
been a conservative my whole life, but I can't support this group when none
of the major players formulating foreign policy has ever fired a shot in
anger, and mostly all of them are of VietNam age. That fact alone shows me
their true patriotism. Shitcan the neocon crowd and maybe I can vote for a
Republican again.
Dave
.
User: "qwerty"

Title: Re: New Evidence Undermines Swiftboat Ad 23 Aug 2004 06:32:11 PM
"hol99" <noone@youknow.com> wrote in message
news:%JtWc.127364$Oi.8032@fed1read04...


"qwerty" <nospam@all.noway.com> wrote in message
news:tiTVc.6344$QJ3.2693@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...


"hol99" <noone@youknow.com> wrote in message
news:A4TVc.536$L94.389@fed1read07...

How do you feel about the protesting??


That it's guaranteed in the 1st amendment.


I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I honestly wanted to know what you

thought

of it. It's not that big of an issue to me. If anything, it's a positive

for

Kerry that he took a stand against that, IMO. I never went to VietNam (too
young) but I was a Marine for 5 years (the active part). I've pretty much
been a conservative my whole life, but I can't support this group when

none

of the major players formulating foreign policy has ever fired a shot in
anger, and mostly all of them are of VietNam age. That fact alone shows me
their true patriotism. Shitcan the neocon crowd and maybe I can vote for a
Republican again.

Dave

Sorry about that Dave, but nearly everyone here seems more interested in
picking fights than having a serious discussion and that was a natural
reaction. So let's start again.
Now I WAS old enough to face the Draft and the real possibility of going to
Vietnam and remember the era well. Despite all the jokes about if you can
remember the 60's then you weren't there! :-) I think it's somewhat
difficult for those who are not old enough to remember or have experienced
the events during that time. As a war protester in the 60's and 70's I can
try and tell you this what motivated us. The Vietnam protests were against
the Draft AND the War AND the total INJUSTICE of it all. First, the voting
age was 21 not today's 18. The 26th Amendment corrected this injustice,
lowering the voting age to 18, but was it not ratified in July of 1971.
It's no coincidence that the both the Draft and the US troop involvement in
Vietnam ended soon after to voting age was lowered. If you repealed the
26th amendment and restored the Draft I think you would seen the return of
massive anti-war protests. The draftees and most of the protestors, being
below the age of 21, were also unable to vote and express their displeasure
via the ballot box. The politicians sending the draftees to war were
unaccountable to them! They really didn't seem to care about our opinions
on these matters. You know the old saying about being fodder for the
cannons! This was very frustrating, being old enough to be drafted, but not
old enough to vote. Old enough to carry a gun, but not to vote. Old enough
for combat but not to buy a beer. The draftees had no say in the Government
and we were treated as children whose opinions didn't matter. This
subsequent rage was channeled into the protests and other acts of civil
disobedience. Can you understand that? We were really, REALLY MAD &
FRUSTRATED! Most of us spent long hours reading and studying the issues and
the more we learned about the history of Vietnam and what was going on there
the more we realized what a mistake the war actually was. It was really
clear to us that it was a big mistake but we had a really hard time getting
anyone of importance to listen. After-all we were young, poor and couldn't
vote so we didn't carry a lot of clout in Washington. History has proven
that we, including John Kerry, were correct about Vietnam. For most of us
this era was our defining moment in our lives, whether we were protestors or
not, soldiers or not, veterans or not, our lives & viewpoints changed
because of the events of this time. Now I never ONCE protested or
denigrated the service men & women in Vietnam but against the government &
politicians that were sending them there. I looked upon those serving as
just as much as victims as anyone else. After-all, it could have easily
been me over there, or as it was I had friends who were there and roommates
who had recently returned and were Vietnam veterans. I've always considered
the military as an honorable career as long as it was by choice and not
forced on anyone. I thank you for your 5 years of active service and
protecting our right to freely express ourselves. However, not everyone is
cut out to be a musician, or an engineer, or a singer, a writer, nor a
soldier and there's no shame in that. I've also considered a strong &
professional military a necessity but it should be used as a last resort
when all other avenues fail and we're in real imminent peril and when we do
use it to go in with full & overwhelming force with sufficient troops,
training, equipment & support for both the war & subsequent peace. It
bothers me greatly that the neo-con's are my age but seem to have forgotten
all that was learned from Vietnam.
.



User: "InsuranceBroker"

Title: Re: New Evidence Undermines Swiftboat Ad 21 Aug 2004 09:11:11 PM

Subject: Re: New Evidence Undermines Swiftboat Ad
From: "hol99"


Date: 8/21/2004 10:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <A4TVc.536$L94.389@fed1read07
How do you feel about the protesting??

In the case of the returning veterans in the late 1960's it saved thousands of
lives. Hell we probably would still be in vietnam if it was not for the protest
of those that returned and told what a ***** war vietnam was.
Doing Insurance business in the Garden State
.



User: "PagCal"

Title: Re: New Evidence Undermines Swiftboat Ad 21 Aug 2004 04:39:44 PM
It didn't take the media very long to see through the Republican attack
ads. They easily fingered some Bush Republicans in Texas for the enterprise.
As for the electoriate, they weren't paying attention, and don't care -
figuring it's just the expected Republican sleeze campaign tactics.
.


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OLDER