| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"John Berg" |
| Date: |
09 Jun 2005 04:54:40 PM |
| Object: |
No God but God, by Reza Aslan |
No God But God, by Reza Aslan
In this generally excellent history and analysis of Islam and Muslims, Reza
Aslan provides a very readable, quite scholarly, and surprisingly relevant
work sure to generate discussion in the next few years.
Should democracies permit the entry of sincere Muslims into their society?
This leads to several sub-issues:
Can Shariah and democracy co-exist?
Will Muslim integrate into democratic societies and accept all citizenship
responsibilities?
Will Muslims abrogate those parts of the Qur'an that advocate the violent
overthrow of their host state?
To begin our discussion here, I offer my comments on the first chapter of
Aslan's book. (The first chapter can be found from some booksellers on the
Internet through a google search.) In the first chapter, Aslan provides the
best presentation on the origins and rationalizations of Islam that I have
found in four years of research. Rich in research, in the Western sense
(citations and dates the reader can check for himself.), this chapter places
Mohammed in the pagan milieu of his time and shows the rationalizations that
permitted Islam to evove to its present form.
I must stop here and point out that Aslan uses the very modern technique of
describing unknowable events as though he were there and could even quote
the conversations. This helps in make the book very readable and very
engaging and I won't fault
Aslan this technique because because of its obvious benefit in readability.
I now invite others to discuss this book, comment on my remarks, or to offer
their own.
John Berg
--
John Berg
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has
ceased to be a great power among men. --W. Churchill
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: No God but God, by Reza Aslan |
13 Jun 2005 09:34:01 AM |
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http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from
whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter,
and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with
you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the
recompense of the unbelievers.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved,
so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them
friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn
back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take
not from among them a friend or a helper.
[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from
you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back
to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do
not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their
hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and
against these We have given you a clear authority.
[5-51] O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians
for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst
you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely
Allah does not guide the unjust people.
[3-151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve,
because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no
authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of
the unjust.
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore
make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of
those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off
every fingertip of them.
52.45] Leave them then till they meet that day of theirs wherein they
shall be made to swoon (with terror):
There is no compulsion in Islam as long as one is a Muslim.
[2-256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has
become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in
the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the
firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing,
Knowing.
Islam clearly cannot allow for any other faith. From the hadith:
Sahih Muslim
Book 019, Number 4366:
It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the
Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the
Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave
any but Muslim.
Sahih Muslim
The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman)
Book 001, Number 0033:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the
Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people
till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the
messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if
they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my
behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with
Allah.
.
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| User: "John Berg" |
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| Title: Re: No God but God, by Reza Aslan |
13 Jun 2005 10:40:46 AM |
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By listing the specific verses that make Islam a religio-political ideology
intent on world conquest, you make a contribution towards the discussion of
whether Islam can co-exist with democracy. More exactly, Islam wishes to
force Islamic jurisprudence on the states it conquers. Reva Aslan suggests
that a "pluralistic" system is equivalent to democracy. Pluralism would
accept only those religions which the Qur'an permits, but only as
subservient, submissive entities that pay tribute and humble themselves. In
fact democracy is when the people select their leaders, make their laws, and
select their judiciaries. Aslan avoids saying that under Islam the leaders
must be Islamic clergy who need only consult the masses.
--
John Berg
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has
ceased to be a great power among men. --W. Churchill
<marktrivers@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118673241.051688.282230@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from
whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter,
and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with
you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the
recompense of the unbelievers.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved,
so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them
friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn
back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take
not from among them a friend or a helper.
[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from
you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back
to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do
not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their
hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and
against these We have given you a clear authority.
[5-51] O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians
for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst
you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely
Allah does not guide the unjust people.
[3-151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve,
because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no
authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of
the unjust.
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore
make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of
those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off
every fingertip of them.
52.45] Leave them then till they meet that day of theirs wherein they
shall be made to swoon (with terror):
There is no compulsion in Islam as long as one is a Muslim.
[2-256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has
become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in
the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the
firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing,
Knowing.
Islam clearly cannot allow for any other faith. From the hadith:
Sahih Muslim
Book 019, Number 4366:
It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the
Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the
Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave
any but Muslim.
Sahih Muslim
The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman)
Book 001, Number 0033:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the
Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people
till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the
messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if
they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my
behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with
Allah.
.
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| User: "John Berg" |
|
| Title: Re: No God but God, by Reza Aslan |
10 Jun 2005 11:53:50 AM |
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6/10/05
No God But God, by Reza Aslan (cont. 2)
A major thesis of Aslan's book claims the possibility of democracy and Islam
coexisting. But you have to look
closely at his meaning. Of course, a Muslim can practice his religion
freely in the US. In fact, the claim I hear
is that the US is the best place in the world for Muslims. However, in
countries with Shariah, the people cease
to govern themselves but are permitted to offer consultation to the leaders,
generally the clerics. Aslan
points out that the clerical leaders are quick to grab more power and force
even more "submission" from the
mob. Worse, all other religions would have to submit to Qur'an and, under
the Qur'an, only certain forms are
acceptable. For example, Christians who believe in the Trinity are
polytheistic infidels.
John Berg
--
John Berg
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has
ceased to be a great power among men. --W. Churchill
"John Berg" <johnberg@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:AU2qe.41902$nG6.21129@attbi_s22...
No God But God, by Reza Aslan
In this generally excellent history and analysis of Islam and Muslims,
Reza
Aslan provides a very readable, quite scholarly, and surprisingly relevant
work sure to generate discussion in the next few years.
Should democracies permit the entry of sincere Muslims into their society?
This leads to several sub-issues:
Can Shariah and democracy co-exist?
Will Muslim integrate into democratic societies and accept all citizenship
responsibilities?
Will Muslims abrogate those parts of the Qur'an that advocate the violent
overthrow of their host state?
To begin our discussion here, I offer my comments on the first chapter of
Aslan's book. (The first chapter can be found from some booksellers on
the Internet through a google search.) In the first chapter, Aslan
provides the best presentation on the origins and rationalizations of
Islam that I have found in four years of research. Rich in research, in
the Western sense (citations and dates the reader can check for himself.),
this chapter places Mohammed in the pagan milieu of his time and shows the
rationalizations that permitted Islam to evove to its present form.
I must stop here and point out that Aslan uses the very modern technique
of describing unknowable events as though he were there and could even
quote the conversations. This helps in make the book very readable and
very engaging and I won't fault
Aslan this technique because because of its obvious benefit in
readability.
I now invite others to discuss this book, comment on my remarks, or to
offer their own.
John Berg
--
John Berg
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has
ceased to be a great power among men. --W. Churchill
.
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| User: "John Berg" |
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| Title: Re: No God but God, by Reza Aslan |
10 Jun 2005 05:26:11 PM |
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6/10/05
No God But God, by Reza Aslan (cont. 2)
As mentioned earlier, Reza Aslan makes his book very readable by
"fictionalizing" anecdotes not supported by any concrete evidence. Using a
writing tactic of including quotes unsupported by any scholarship, he may
inadvertently suggest "facts in evidence" that he does not have. In the
absence of any concrete data such as manuscripts, inscriptions, and
artifacts, he provides the usual statements about tradition and feats of
memorization but readily admits that such justifications must extend over
periods of 200 to 400 years. Another story offers reasons for
contemporaries destroying any concrete evidence that might have existed in
the early years of Islam.
Language provides for communication but written language permits
communication of decades and centuries. Aslan offers several answers to
deal with the absence of any of Mohammed's work but misses the one reason so
obviously provable.
John Berg
--
John Berg
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has
ceased to be a great power among men. --W. Churchill
"John Berg" <johnberg@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:AU2qe.41902$nG6.21129@attbi_s22...
No God But God, by Reza Aslan
In this generally excellent history and analysis of Islam and Muslims,
Reza
Aslan provides a very readable, quite scholarly, and surprisingly relevant
work sure to generate discussion in the next few years.
Should democracies permit the entry of sincere Muslims into their society?
This leads to several sub-issues:
Can Shariah and democracy co-exist?
Will Muslim integrate into democratic societies and accept all citizenship
responsibilities?
Will Muslims abrogate those parts of the Qur'an that advocate the violent
overthrow of their host state?
To begin our discussion here, I offer my comments on the first chapter of
Aslan's book. (The first chapter can be found from some booksellers on
the Internet through a google search.) In the first chapter, Aslan
provides the best presentation on the origins and rationalizations of
Islam that I have found in four years of research. Rich in research, in
the Western sense (citations and dates the reader can check for himself.),
this chapter places Mohammed in the pagan milieu of his time and shows the
rationalizations that permitted Islam to evove to its present form.
I must stop here and point out that Aslan uses the very modern technique
of describing unknowable events as though he were there and could even
quote the conversations. This helps in make the book very readable and
very engaging and I won't fault
Aslan this technique because because of its obvious benefit in
readability.
I now invite others to discuss this book, comment on my remarks, or to
offer their own.
John Berg
--
John Berg
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has
ceased to be a great power among men. --W. Churchill
.
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| User: "John Berg" |
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| Title: Re: No God but God, by Reza Aslan |
11 Jun 2005 06:55:35 PM |
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6/11/05
No God But God, by Reza Aslan (cont. 2)
To construct a history of Islam, Reza Aslan has to deal with the absence of
any written documents, inscriptions, or fragments in Arabic from the period
of Mohammed's life to almost 200 years or 7 generations later. Traditional
explanations from Arablic studies attempting to rationalize the missing
documentation suggest broad illiteracy throughout the Arabian lands,
including Mohammed. I accept this, but for another reason. Aslan denies
this on the basis of Mohammed's respected position as a successful merchant.
However, a more convincing reason for the absence of Arabic document results
from the absence of a written form of Arabic. A written form of Arabic was
developing from 700AD to about the 2nd century after the death of Mohammed,
motivated by the need for a written Qur'an. Of course early Arabs were
illiterate, there was nothing to read! Recitals, taken by "poets" from
village to village, tribe to tribe was the mode of communication.
The absence of a written Arabic also explains why Mohammed did not compile
the Qur'an into a canonical form, or any form.
And of course, no Qur'an exists from the time of Mohammed.
But perhaps some scholar can yet find a collection of revelations in Arabic
from Mohammed's time.
John Berg
--
John Berg
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has
ceased to be a great power among men. --W. Churchill
"John Berg" <johnberg@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:AU2qe.41902$nG6.21129@attbi_s22...
No God But God, by Reza Aslan
In this generally excellent history and analysis of Islam and Muslims,
Reza
Aslan provides a very readable, quite scholarly, and surprisingly relevant
work sure to generate discussion in the next few years.
Should democracies permit the entry of sincere Muslims into their society?
This leads to several sub-issues:
Can Shariah and democracy co-exist?
Will Muslim integrate into democratic societies and accept all citizenship
responsibilities?
Will Muslims abrogate those parts of the Qur'an that advocate the violent
overthrow of their host state?
To begin our discussion here, I offer my comments on the first chapter of
Aslan's book. (The first chapter can be found from some booksellers on
the Internet through a google search.) In the first chapter, Aslan
provides the best presentation on the origins and rationalizations of
Islam that I have found in four years of research. Rich in research, in
the Western sense (citations and dates the reader can check for himself.),
this chapter places Mohammed in the pagan milieu of his time and shows the
rationalizations that permitted Islam to evove to its present form.
I must stop here and point out that Aslan uses the very modern technique
of describing unknowable events as though he were there and could even
quote the conversations. This helps in make the book very readable and
very engaging and I won't fault
Aslan this technique because because of its obvious benefit in
readability.
I now invite others to discuss this book, comment on my remarks, or to
offer their own.
John Berg
--
John Berg
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has
ceased to be a great power among men. --W. Churchill
.
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| User: "Phaedrine" |
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| Title: Re: No God but God, by Reza Aslan |
17 Jun 2005 10:08:11 AM |
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In article <AU2qe.41902$nG6.21129@attbi_s22>,
"John Berg" <johnberg@mchsi.com> wrote:
No God But God, by Reza Aslan
Sounds like an interesting book. I predict that little will change with
regard to islam until most of their oil is gone.
--
Got a problem with CAIR and its dishonest tactics? Write your representatives!
<http://capwiz.com/lwv/dbq/officials/directory/directory.dbq?command=congdir>
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
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| Title: Re: No God but God, by Reza Aslan |
09 Jun 2005 05:04:13 PM |
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Why do you think Christianity is any better?
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/index.html
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| User: "John Berg" |
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| Title: Re: No God but God, by Reza Aslan |
13 Jun 2005 12:48:26 AM |
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6/13/05
No God But God, by Reza Aslan (cont. 5)
One consequence of the absence of any written documents, inscriptions, or
fragments in Arabic from the period of Mohammed's life to almost 200 years
or 7 generations later is the absence of dates that prevents Islamic
scholars like Reza Aslan from arranging the verses of the Qur'an in any
chronological order. It's very difficult to point to verse a abrogating
verse b if you have no idea of the order of the two verses. Aslan does his
best with this reality and even enlarges on earlier commentators.
Assessing truths about the Qur'an from undated, nay, undateable internal
evidence also challenges Aslan. He is fair enough to note that Mohammed's
tradtional birthdate, the year of the elephants, is about century wrong
given the scholary dates give to Yemen's invasion of Arabia. In general,
Islamic scholarship avoids dealing with dates, the absence of documentation,
and references from other civilizations with written languages and preserved
records. If ignored, the problems goes away.
As a concrete example, do you know of any other sacred scripture that refers
to itself by name? The fact that the Qur'an contains references to the
Qur'an is proof that more was added to the evolving document after its
existence and use by others for some time.
John Berg
--
John Berg
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has
ceased to be a great power among men. --W. Churchill
"Niels van der Linden" <n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote in
message news:d8aegc$lhd$1@netlx020.civ.utwente.nl...
Why do you think Christianity is any better?
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/index.html
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: No God but God, by Reza Aslan |
09 Jun 2005 09:02:04 PM |
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Niels van der Linden wrote:
Why do you think Christianity is any better?
Why did the Prophet Mohammed rape children (see the Koran)
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| User: "John Berg" |
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| Title: Re: No God but God, by Reza Aslan |
10 Jun 2005 07:28:52 AM |
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Reza Aslan makes many comparisons of similarities between Islam and
Christianity or Judaism.
I will discuss Islam independent of other religions and find comparisons to
other religions of no particular value.
--
John Berg
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has
ceased to be a great power among men. --W. Churchill
"Niels van der Linden" <n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote in
message news:d8aegc$lhd$1@netlx020.civ.utwente.nl...
Why do you think Christianity is any better?
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/index.html
.
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