The fish rots from the head. Fire Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.

On Sat, 08 May 2004 07:02:40 -0500, "00:00:00Hg" <snack@tack.crucnh>
wrote:

Dear NG Companions
As first I must apologize for my poor knowledge of the English
language. It would be a pity if you don't understand/misunderstand
what I will write next.

On Sat, 08 May 2004 07:02:40 -0500, "00:00:00Hg" <snack@tack.crucnh>
wrote:

Dear NG Companions
As first I must apologize for my poor knowledge of the English
language. It would be a pity if you don't understand/misunderstand
what I will write next.
It was a very interesting discussion about Americans and Sadism.
I'm sure that in the whole America's population there is only a few
number of persons that would consciously do injures or willingly
humiliate another persons and these few persons are insane. I'm sure
that if these guards at the Iraq prison would have seen during his
civil life a film in which would appear soldiers doing that what they
have done, they would be shocked and would have said that such thigs
are criminal.
The question is: Why they have done that if normally they would not
do?
Usually we say that people don't do many criminal things because:
a) You have got a education at home showing you what is wrong and what
is right.
b) There is a society which has developed rules of living together and
also the power to punish the wrongdoer.
But now again the question: Why the Hell they have done that?
IMHO I think is a mix of fail of above expressed rules.

I'm a Spaniard and I'm observing here in Spain too that in the last
time parents are more and more not accepting his primary
responsability of giving a social education to his children.
They are giving excuses such as " this is a matter of the school"
or "this child is an evil. I try but it's impossible to educate him"
The truth is that to social educate a children is a very difficult job
today and if you want to have any succes, you must begin very early
and wear a lot of patience. If you want begin when the child has four
years, sorry but it's too late. The children has learned other things
and now is listening the voices of the exterior and no more papa and
mama.
Well, we have now one of the problems: childrens that don't have had a
social education at home are potential wrongdoers but most of them
don't do anything wrong in his full life. Why??
Because the exterior voices that he/she was listening in its youth
and, probably, his own life experience show them that there is a big
trouble if you violate the rules of the established society. And so
many potential wrongdoers are only bad drivers or, occasionally,
bothering or offending other people.
But in the case of the guards of the Iraq prison, they are gone too
far. And the question is: Why??
I think that it was because the two barriers which prevents us from
doing such a miserable act (social education and law) were not present
at all in this prison.
I can understand the fault of social education in a person ( it's a
pity but ***** happens) but if I were an American citizen I would never
accept that the person which was responsible for the application of
the law in the territory under his charge would accept such sadistic
acts without punish it. It is again the image of America. You gave him
a duty and he was running away from the enemy.
If you were a employer and you have a worker that when you are not
present, stop to work and goes to the bar. Would you accept it?
Certainly not. Allright then, please, think the following: You are in
a ship, a big one with more than 200 millions passengers. The ship is
called US America and you have a captain, a pilot and so far, a crew.
But all these persons, no matter how important they are, THEY ARE YOUR
WORKERS. They are here to bring the ship in a safe, nice harbour and
not to make this ship his personal Love Boat.

It is my humble opinion
Juan

On Sun, 09 May 2004 06:40:10 -0400, PagCal wrote:

Not all Americans Are Brutal Sadistic Killers

No, you've got it wrong. All Americans can easily become sadistic
killers. Read the referenced experiments at Stanford University to see
that this is so.

Read on ...

---

Bush is trying to defuse the latest Iraqi torture pics as the work of
a few rogue Americans, but this is simply not the case.

A structure born of imorality brought on by Liberal control of the
education system which has changed the product of this generation
and has painted itself into the picture of man for all to see, and
you want to make implications that the results of Liberialism is the
fault of the Right and Bush? Typical.

If you read through the attached link and summary, it's clear that
this propensity of evil exists within all of us.

Keep that in mind.

The only way we are able to operate in a humane way, is through
social structures that reinforce this behavior.

The social structure the Left has brought forth in America has
become exactally NOT what you describe. All the rules are by the

and the brave new world of young Americans are expressing exactally

they were taught to do, nothing more, nothing less. Congradulations my
Dear Socialist Marxist, you have won your battle for the minds of the
American youth and they are paving the streets of the world with the
stones you provided them.

Bush must take the blame, as the commander in chief, for not setting
up and monitoring these structures.

If the character flaws are in and part of all mankind as you point out,
how then is it that you can focus on one individual as the "Blame" for
a flaw that is inherient in all mankind?

I must correct you by way of your own words so that truth takes
precidence above bias.

Bush can be responsible for only 1/(Total Humans Alive). In other words
he can only be responsible for his own actions. If his action is to
make all mankind face the problem and know that 'the acts' are inherent
and latent in all of us, then he will be a great leader. If on the

hand he chooses the path you have laid out for him, what do you suppose
the outcome will be if Bush elects to become a 'Jesus Christ' and take
on the blame for a flaw that plagues the whole world of man?

Still think Bush should take the blame? Or, would you rather he take
the action of leading the world into a better understanding of itself?
If there is forgiveness in him, can he use it to ignite the fire of
understanding? Is it possible to stop the designs of Islam to conquer
the world and find a solution to appease it into stopping it's motion?

If you were in Bush's shoes at the moment, and know what he knows, what
course of action would you take? I am curious as to how your projection
of thought into the apex of the pyramid of world power would effect me,
my life, and my neighbors around me, and especally all my Hacker

I do not expect links from you, I expect you to in your own words tell
me how you would handle the problems of the world. Impress me.

http://www.prisonexp.org/

A Simulation Study of the
Psychology of Imprisonment
Conducted at Stanford University

Welcome to the Stanford Prison Experiment web site, which features an
extensive slide show and information about this classic psychology
experiment. What happens when you put good people in an evil place?

humanity win over evil, or does evil triumph? These are some of the
questions we posed in this dramatic simulation of prison life conducted
in the summer of 1971 at Stanford University.

How we went about testing these questions and what we found may astound
you. Our planned two-week investigation into the psychology of prison
life had to be ended prematurely after only six days because of what

situation was doing to the college students who participated. In only a
few days, our guards became sadistic and our prisoners became depressed
and showed signs of extreme stress. Please join me on a slide tour of
describing this experiment and uncovering what it tells us about the
nature of Human Nature.

You, Mr. Polyanna Republican thought you could unleash the dogs of war,
and then, Oh, just apologize when they killed and tortured the Iraqi.
Well, it's never worked in the past, it won't work now, nor will it ever
work in the future. Any lame comparisions you Polyanna Republicans make
to Japan or Germany show that you've only read history out of comic books.

And what did Bush try for? A liberal democracy where none have ever
existed before. It's not only stupid, but moronic. The foundations, such
as a middle class, simply don't exist in Iraq. As well, threw most of
the country out of work by also trying social engineering such as
privitization, which certainly won't get people back to work any time soon.

And torture at Sadam's old prison of a few hundred people is not the
worst of it. We've killed between 8k and 10k civilians, and wounded
typically 10x that number or around 100k Iraqi. And, we keep at it, as
if more firepower in Falujah or Najaf will somehow FINALLY win the
hearts and minds. Those pics don't make it into Western Press daily, but
they do make it into Arab press daily - and they show us a butchers,
defilers, and killers of women and children.

And then, of course we use DU ammunition, which spikes birth defects by
3x to 10x in the country. After the '91 war, the first question became,
'Does the kid have all it's arms and legs?' - and sadly, with our new
and improved computerized warfare, we'll guarantee this question well
into the future.

Can it get worse?

Well, Mr. Polyanna Republican, did you know that Rummy said we haven't
seen the worst of it. He's got snuff videos, and rape videos - some with
sound, and hundreds of other pictures - all waiting to dribble out into
the news.

Did we eleminate Al-Quaeda?

No, we've created a failed state where they can flourish.