| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
| Date: |
10 Sep 2007 07:20:37 AM |
| Object: |
Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
After all the "I'm gay by birth," "I'm a thief by birth," and such
said by people that didn't want to change, claiming "God made me this
way."...A new scientific study says the reverse is true...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070906/sc_livescience/adultbraincanstillchange
This study being published in a professional journal says that the
adult brain can change and create new pathways. There have been other
studies that have said the same in recent years, so this is just the
latest example of this truth: you cannot blame your genes for what YOU
chose to be and do. NOTHING is HARD wired for your life. Even if you
were born with genetic defects (like original sin's desire to sin),
EVERYTHING can change, IF you want it to.
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
11 Sep 2007 12:32:13 PM |
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In article <1189426837.386194.7350@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
After all the "I'm gay by birth," "I'm a thief by birth,"
Only on Planet Ken is there "all" this claiming of such
things as "I'm a thief by birth".
But as to the other example: when did YOU decide to be straight
rather than gay? Could you change that decision right this moment
-- just for a half-hour, mind you, just to prove your point --
could you sit down this second and choose to get a hard-on thinking
about taking Johnny Depp's shirt off, or jack off to images of
giving Keanu Reeves a hummer? Maybe get a squirt fantasizing about
rimming Matthew McConaughey?
If you can, then I'd say you've proved your point about conscious
choice -- at least for you, although perhaps then something is lacking in me,
as I don't believe that I could simply choose to have those feelings, no matter
how useful for the purposes of this argument that might be.
and such
said by people that didn't want to change, claiming "God made me this
way."...A new scientific study says the reverse is true...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070906/sc_livescience/adultbraincanstillchange
This study being published in a professional journal says that the
adult brain can change and create new pathways. There have been other
studies that have said the same in recent years, so this is just the
latest example of this truth: you cannot blame your genes for what YOU
chose to be and do. NOTHING is HARD wired for your life. Even if you
were born with genetic defects (like original sin's desire to sin),
EVERYTHING can change, IF you want it to.
By an act of will, right?
If we're going to keep talking about current neurological research,
and as it pertains to the "will", you're not going to be happy at
all with the direction THAT conversation will take. Trust
me on this one.
Much of what you think of as your "will" is just along for the ride,
and charged with making up reasons why "I" chose to do something,
when in truth the decisions are made in regions of the brain
not accessible to the "I".
Shall we discuss an example or two?
-- cary
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
10 Sep 2007 11:01:43 AM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
After all the "I'm gay by birth," "I'm a thief by birth," and such
said by people that didn't want to change, claiming "God made me this
way."...A new scientific study says the reverse is true...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070906/sc_livescience/adultbraincanstillchange
This study being published in a professional journal says that the
adult brain can change and create new pathways. There have been other
studies that have said the same in recent years, so this is just the
latest example of this truth: you cannot blame your genes for what YOU
chose to be and do.
When did you explicitly choose to be heterosexual?
NOTHING is HARD wired for your life.
The cited article does NOT say that. Indeed it says the opposite.
<However, similar studies have somewhat tempered these positive
< results, one in which brain scans failed to find evidence for brain
< changes in patients with macular degeneration.
Even if you
were born with genetic defects (like original sin's desire to sin),
EVERYTHING can change, IF you want it to.
The article reported changes that were detected NOT because the
patient "wanted to", and were totally independent of her "wants".
Now it may turn out that *some* changes may be achievable through will
coupled with well-designed therapies. But that is not what you are
claiming.
lojbab
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| User: "Lady Azure" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
18 Sep 2007 01:15:37 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
After all the "I'm gay by birth," "I'm a thief by birth," and such
said by people that didn't want to change, claiming "God made me this
way."...A new scientific study says the reverse is true...
Not a Christian are you?
Gen 4: last 2 verses.
After Cain slew Able God gave Eve the covenant of Seth
A 3rd Son, born in the image of Adam before the separation.
Daniel 9:, Rev 2:, Levites are Shapeshifters, Billy Goats with Tits.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
18 Sep 2007 02:39:01 AM |
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Lady Azure <laddieolug@galls.org> wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
After all the "I'm gay by birth," "I'm a thief by birth," and such
said by people that didn't want to change, claiming "God made me this
way."...A new scientific study says the reverse is true...
Not a Christian are you?
Actually I am. I am not, however an idolater who worships the Bible
instead of the Lord.
Gen 4: last 2 verses.
After Cain slew Able God gave Eve the covenant of Seth
A 3rd Son, born in the image of Adam before the separation.
Daniel 9:, Rev 2:, Levites are Shapeshifters, Billy Goats with Tits.
Yeah, and Ezekiel 1 describes a UFO landing with two robots, or
possibly bipedal aliens in advanced power-suits.
lojbab
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| User: "Lady Azure" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
20 Sep 2007 01:15:39 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Lady Azure <laddieolug@galls.org> wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
After all the "I'm gay by birth," "I'm a thief by birth," and such
said by people that didn't want to change, claiming "God made me this
way."...A new scientific study says the reverse is true...
Not a Christian are you?
Actually I am. I am not, however an idolater who worships the Bible
instead of the Lord.
Gen 4: last 2 verses.
After Cain slew Able God gave Eve the covenant of Seth
A 3rd Son, born in the image of Adam before the separation.
Daniel 9:, Rev 2:, Levites are Shapeshifters, Billy Goats with Tits.
Yeah, and Ezekiel 1 describes a UFO landing with two robots, or
possibly bipedal aliens in advanced power-suits.
So do a number of ancient legends.
Hel is where the Silver Wheel fell from the sky and bored Abadon, the
Bottomless Pit.
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
11 Sep 2007 08:17:15 AM |
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On Sep 10, 11:01 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
After all the "I'm gay by birth," "I'm a thief by birth," and such
said by people that didn't want to change, claiming "God made me this
way."...A new scientific study says the reverse is true...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070906/sc_livescience/adultbrai...
This study being published in a professional journal says that the
adult brain can change and create new pathways. There have been other
studies that have said the same in recent years, so this is just the
latest example of this truth: you cannot blame your genes for what YOU
chose to be and do.
When did you explicitly choose to be heterosexual?
NOTHING is HARD wired for your life.
The cited article does NOT say that. Indeed it says the opposite.
<However, similar studies have somewhat tempered these positive
< results, one in which brain scans failed to find evidence for brain
< changes in patients with macular degeneration.
Even if you
were born with genetic defects (like original sin's desire to sin),
EVERYTHING can change, IF you want it to.
The article reported changes that were detected NOT because the
patient "wanted to", and were totally independent of her "wants".
Now it may turn out that *some* changes may be achievable through will
coupled with well-designed therapies. But that is not what you are
claiming.
lojbab
It specifically said the adult brain could establish NEW pathways and
change over time.
Now, on an added but connected issue, if the will can change the
brain, where does this WILL come from, if not the spirit of a person.
If, as psychologists would have you believe, there is not spirit but
only the brain, the person being a reflection of the brain, how can
the brain be changed by the will (didn't that will come from the
brain)?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
11 Sep 2007 02:26:19 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com>
On Sep 10, 11:01 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
After all the "I'm gay by birth," "I'm a thief by birth," and such
said by people that didn't want to change, claiming "God made me this
way."...A new scientific study says the reverse is true...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070906/sc_livescience/adultbrai...
This study being published in a professional journal says that the
adult brain can change and create new pathways. There have been other
studies that have said the same in recent years, so this is just the
latest example of this truth: you cannot blame your genes for what YOU
chose to be and do.
When did you explicitly choose to be heterosexual?
NOTHING is HARD wired for your life.
The cited article does NOT say that. Indeed it says the opposite.
<However, similar studies have somewhat tempered these positive
< results, one in which brain scans failed to find evidence for brain
< changes in patients with macular degeneration.
Even if you
were born with genetic defects (like original sin's desire to sin),
EVERYTHING can change, IF you want it to.
The article reported changes that were detected NOT because the
patient "wanted to", and were totally independent of her "wants".
Now it may turn out that *some* changes may be achievable through will
coupled with well-designed therapies. But that is not what you are
claiming.
lojbab
It specifically said the adult brain could establish NEW pathways and
change over time.
Now, on an added but connected issue, if the will can change the
brain, where does this WILL come from, if not the spirit of a person.
And of course the article says nothing at all like "the will can
change the brain".
The article says that exposure to visual stimuli can alter certain
visual processing regions.
Nothing about "the will".
Rather reminiscient of your false claim about evolution being
based on the ability of organisms to change their DNA at will.
If, as psychologists would have you believe, there is not spirit but
only the brain, the person being a reflection of the brain, how can
the brain be changed by the will (didn't that will come from the
brain)?
And why do you think that what you experience as "will" is not
a product of brain functioning?
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I
would not, that I do.
- cary
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
11 Sep 2007 12:40:08 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com>
On Sep 10, 11:01 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
After all the "I'm gay by birth," "I'm a thief by birth," and such
said by people that didn't want to change, claiming "God made me this
way."...A new scientific study says the reverse is true...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070906/sc_livescience/adultbrai...
This study being published in a professional journal says that the
adult brain can change and create new pathways. There have been other
studies that have said the same in recent years, so this is just the
latest example of this truth: you cannot blame your genes for what YOU
chose to be and do.
When did you explicitly choose to be heterosexual?
NOTHING is HARD wired for your life.
The cited article does NOT say that. Indeed it says the opposite.
<However, similar studies have somewhat tempered these positive
< results, one in which brain scans failed to find evidence for brain
< changes in patients with macular degeneration.
Even if you
were born with genetic defects (like original sin's desire to sin),
EVERYTHING can change, IF you want it to.
The article reported changes that were detected NOT because the
patient "wanted to", and were totally independent of her "wants".
Now it may turn out that *some* changes may be achievable through will
coupled with well-designed therapies. But that is not what you are
claiming.
lojbab
It specifically said the adult brain could establish NEW pathways and
change over time.
For visual processing. A mouse, presumably, might well be able to
do the same.
Only you would be so ingenuous as to extend such a limited and specific
finding to reach such global conclusions.
-- cary
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
11 Sep 2007 02:47:40 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 11:01 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Even if you
were born with genetic defects (like original sin's desire to sin),
EVERYTHING can change, IF you want it to.
The article reported changes that were detected NOT because the
patient "wanted to", and were totally independent of her "wants".
Now it may turn out that *some* changes may be achievable through will
coupled with well-designed therapies. But that is not what you are
claiming.
It specifically said the adult brain could establish NEW pathways and
change over time.
Yes. But it does NOT say that EVERY sort of particular changes are
possible, nor that whatever change is in question is under the control
of our will.
Now, on an added but connected issue, if the will can change the
brain,
That is not in evidence.
where does this WILL come from,
We don't know. It is an emergent phenomenon of our brains.
if not the spirit of a person.
There is no evidence that there is such a thing as a "spirit".
If, as psychologists would have you believe, there is not spirit but
only the brain, the person being a reflection of the brain, how can
the brain be changed by the will (didn't that will come from the
brain)?
The brain can and does change by itself without any conscious control.
It simply is not the case that any given change must be changed "by"
some intelligent agent. Indeed most change takes place with no
intelligence whatsoever (which is why there is hope even for you).
lojbab
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| User: "Lady Azure" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
18 Sep 2007 01:28:19 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 11:01 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Even if you
were born with genetic defects (like original sin's desire to sin),
EVERYTHING can change, IF you want it to.
The article reported changes that were detected NOT because the
patient "wanted to", and were totally independent of her "wants".
Now it may turn out that *some* changes may be achievable through will
coupled with well-designed therapies. But that is not what you are
claiming.
It specifically said the adult brain could establish NEW pathways and
change over time.
Yes. But it does NOT say that EVERY sort of particular changes are
possible, nor that whatever change is in question is under the control
of our will.
Now, on an added but connected issue, if the will can change the
brain,
That is not in evidence.
where does this WILL come from,
We don't know. It is an emergent phenomenon of our brains.
if not the spirit of a person.
There is no evidence that there is such a thing as a "spirit".
If, as psychologists would have you believe, there is not spirit but
only the brain, the person being a reflection of the brain, how can
the brain be changed by the will (didn't that will come from the
brain)?
The brain can and does change by itself without any conscious control.
It simply is not the case that any given change must be changed "by"
some intelligent agent. Indeed most change takes place with no
intelligence whatsoever (which is why there is hope even for you).
lojbab
Oh ok so you don't believe in the Religious views your just a Bigot.
Lets start this slow then.
The Term Gay is derived from an Irish Portuguese Word "Gall" as in
Gallway Bay.
It refers to the "Strange Invaders" of Ireland or the Gaelic.
Their Chieftain was Called Laddie.
They are the Strange Women of the Bible.
In reference mine is the House of Nun, an ancient term for "FISH".
Bigots.
Not nice to call women "Fish", even if you don't like the Amazon's.
From the NUN came Dagon the Fish Man!
The stuff about wearing a Kilt, came from Dyionisis.
In other words, there are people who are genetically part of a
hermaphrodite race.
Laddie of the Gall's,
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
18 Sep 2007 02:36:45 AM |
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Lady Azure <laddieolug@galls.org> wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 11:01 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Even if you
were born with genetic defects (like original sin's desire to sin),
EVERYTHING can change, IF you want it to.
The article reported changes that were detected NOT because the
patient "wanted to", and were totally independent of her "wants".
Now it may turn out that *some* changes may be achievable through will
coupled with well-designed therapies. But that is not what you are
claiming.
It specifically said the adult brain could establish NEW pathways and
change over time.
Yes. But it does NOT say that EVERY sort of particular changes are
possible, nor that whatever change is in question is under the control
of our will.
Now, on an added but connected issue, if the will can change the
brain,
That is not in evidence.
where does this WILL come from,
We don't know. It is an emergent phenomenon of our brains.
if not the spirit of a person.
There is no evidence that there is such a thing as a "spirit".
If, as psychologists would have you believe, there is not spirit but
only the brain, the person being a reflection of the brain, how can
the brain be changed by the will (didn't that will come from the
brain)?
The brain can and does change by itself without any conscious control.
It simply is not the case that any given change must be changed "by"
some intelligent agent. Indeed most change takes place with no
intelligence whatsoever (which is why there is hope even for you).
Oh ok so you don't believe in the Religious views your just a Bigot.
What religious views? I have religious views. I obviously don't
believe in the religious views of some other views. That does not
make me a "bigot", especially since I am always open to evidence.
(not that people are generally able to produce any evidence in support
of their religious views).
Lets start this slow then.
The Term Gay is derived from an Irish Portuguese Word "Gall" as in
Gallway Bay.
Folk etymology is NOT convincing
<Main Entry: gay
<Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French gai, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German gAhi quick, sudden
It refers to the "Strange Invaders" of Ireland or the Gaelic.
Their Chieftain was Called Laddie.
They are the Strange Women of the Bible.
In reference mine is the House of Nun, an ancient term for "FISH".
Bigots.
Not nice to call women "Fish", even if you don't like the Amazon's.
From the NUN came Dagon the Fish Man!
The stuff about wearing a Kilt, came from Dyionisis.
In other words, there are people who are genetically part of a
hermaphrodite race.
Well, you certainly are correct: I don't believe in your religious
views. I think they are nonsense. They also have nothing to do with
history, appearing to mingle stuff from several cultures.
lojbab
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| User: "Lady Azure" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
20 Sep 2007 01:13:58 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Lady Azure <laddieolug@galls.org> wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 11:01 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Even if you
were born with genetic defects (like original sin's desire to sin),
EVERYTHING can change, IF you want it to.
The article reported changes that were detected NOT because the
patient "wanted to", and were totally independent of her "wants".
Now it may turn out that *some* changes may be achievable through will
coupled with well-designed therapies. But that is not what you are
claiming.
It specifically said the adult brain could establish NEW pathways and
change over time.
Yes. But it does NOT say that EVERY sort of particular changes are
possible, nor that whatever change is in question is under the control
of our will.
Now, on an added but connected issue, if the will can change the
brain,
That is not in evidence.
where does this WILL come from,
We don't know. It is an emergent phenomenon of our brains.
if not the spirit of a person.
There is no evidence that there is such a thing as a "spirit".
If, as psychologists would have you believe, there is not spirit but
only the brain, the person being a reflection of the brain, how can
the brain be changed by the will (didn't that will come from the
brain)?
The brain can and does change by itself without any conscious control.
It simply is not the case that any given change must be changed "by"
some intelligent agent. Indeed most change takes place with no
intelligence whatsoever (which is why there is hope even for you).
Oh ok so you don't believe in the Religious views your just a Bigot.
What religious views? I have religious views. I obviously don't
believe in the religious views of some other views.
Read again, I stated you do not have a religious ax to grind.
That does not
make me a "bigot", especially since I am always open to evidence.
(not that people are generally able to produce any evidence in support
of their religious views).
No I reference Genetic Views.
Lets start this slow then.
The Term Gay is derived from an Irish Portuguese Word "Gall" as in
Gallway Bay.
Folk etymology is NOT convincing
Not Folk Lore, Historical Fact.
Laddies of Gall wore Kilts in response to Dyionisis Teachings about the
Sacrament of Femininity.
Amerigen had a Song about his Shape Shifting.
<Main Entry: gay
<Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French gai, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German gAhi quick, sudden
Gall = Hay with an argument over the G or J of the Washi n Gi Ton
It refers to the "Strange Invaders" of Ireland or the Gaelic.
Their Chieftain was Called Laddie.
They are the Strange Women of the Bible.
In reference mine is the House of Nun, an ancient term for "FISH".
Bigots.
Not nice to call women "Fish", even if you don't like the Amazon's.
From the NUN came Dagon the Fish Man!
The stuff about wearing a Kilt, came from Dyionisis.
In other words, there are people who are genetically part of a
hermaphrodite race.
Well, you certainly are correct: I don't believe in your religious
views. I think they are nonsense. They also have nothing to do with
history, appearing to mingle stuff from several cultures.
Scythian Race of Scoti Origins, Factual Tribe of Isaiah, and the 12
Tribes.
Born of the Clouds, or Rephaim.
Clouds do exist.
So do Alpines Oceans, Asians, Achaeans, Achi. . . . .
So do such things as the Bears of the Berserks, Brownies or Bruin Gi,
the Bears are Real People.
Weather you believe it or not!
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Nothing HARD wired (Brains not set at birth) |
20 Sep 2007 06:55:36 AM |
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Lady Azure <laddieolug@galls.org> wrote:
The brain can and does change by itself without any conscious control.
It simply is not the case that any given change must be changed "by"
some intelligent agent. Indeed most change takes place with no
intelligence whatsoever (which is why there is hope even for you).
Oh ok so you don't believe in the Religious views your just a Bigot.
What religious views? I have religious views. I obviously don't
believe in the religious views of some other views.
Read again, I stated you do not have a religious ax to grind.
That does not
make me a "bigot", especially since I am always open to evidence.
(not that people are generally able to produce any evidence in support
of their religious views).
No I reference Genetic Views.
What is a "Genetic View". My genes don't have eyes.
Lets start this slow then.
The Term Gay is derived from an Irish Portuguese Word "Gall" as in
Gallway Bay.
Folk etymology is NOT convincing
Not Folk Lore, Historical Fact.
Laddies of Gall wore Kilts in response to Dyionisis Teachings about the
Sacrament of Femininity.
Amerigen had a Song about his Shape Shifting.
I see no facts, historical or otherwise, in that paragraph.
<Main Entry: gay
<Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French gai, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German gAhi quick, sudden
Gall = Hay with an argument over the G or J of the Washi n Gi Ton
I have no idea what you are talking about, and you appear not to
either. The fact that you cannot spell makes it even less likely that
anyone will make sense of your rantings. The people who Julius Caesar
conquered were called the Gauls. Gall is a secretion of one of your
digestive organs.
Kilts have nothing to do with femininity. The particular distinctions
of dress in modern Western society have no relation to any
distinctions in dress that existed before late medieval times.
Well, you certainly are correct: I don't believe in your religious
views. I think they are nonsense. They also have nothing to do with
history, appearing to mingle stuff from several cultures.
Scythian Race of Scoti Origins, Factual Tribe of Isaiah, and the 12
Tribes.
There is no evidence of 12 tribes. There is only one race, the human
one. You lack any facts in that line.
Born of the Clouds, or Rephaim.
meaningless.
Clouds do exist.
That is probably a factual statement.
So do Alpines Oceans, Asians, Achaeans, Achi. . . . .
So do such things as the Bears of the Berserks, Brownies or Bruin Gi,
the Bears are Real People.
Weather you believe it or not!
"Belief" is a question of religion.
lojbab
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