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Pakistan Remains the Global Center for Terrorism and al-Qaida |
SPIEGEL ONLINE - July 22, 2005, 06:34 PM
URL: http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,366371,00.html
SPIEGEL Interview with Pakistani Scholar Ahmed Rashid
"Pakistan Remains the Global Center for Terrorism and al-Qaida"
The investigation into the July 7 London bombings quickly revealed ties to
Pakistan. But just what role did the country run by Gen. Pervez Musharraf
play in the terror attacks? SPIEGEL ONLINE spoke with Ahmed Rashid about the
country's reliance on extremist groups, radical religious schools and the
reason Osama bin Laden remains at large, very likely in Pakistan.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Mr. Rashid, after the London bombings, police quickly
revealed that most of the bombers were British citizens of Pakistani origin
and that they might have traveled to Pakistan to receive instructions and
training prior to the July 7 attacks. Was this a surprise to you?
Rashid: People in Pakistan were very apprehensive after the bombing, but the
connection with Pakistan did not come as a surprise. It was clear there was
a great danger that the Pakistani community in London would carry out such
an attack. It is well known that the Muslim community there is very
radical -- at least some of them. People also knew many of them had
connections in Pakistan.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: There have been a number of arrests in Pakistan in recent
days. Were the roots of the London attacks in Britain or were they in
Pakistan?
Rashid: The roots of the attack were in England. There has been an enormous
radicalization of British Muslims in the last few years and especially since
the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States. There are radical preachers,
there are radical mosques. There are lots of schools there which have been
teaching students the Koran on Friday afternoons and at the same time
radicalizing them. There is no dearth of ideological training in England.
---------------------------------------------
Ahmed Rashid
Ahmed Rashid is a Pakistani journalist and scholar based in
Lahore. He is the author of the best-selling "Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil
and Fundamentalism in Central Asia" (2000), a seminal book about Afghanistan
before the US invasion. He wrote "Jihad, The Rise of Militant Islam in
Central Asia" (2002). In addition, Rashid is the Pakistan, Afghanistan and
Central Asia correspondent for the Far Eastern Economic Review and the Daily
Telegraph.
---------------------------------------------
SPIEGEL ONLINE: So how great a role does Pakistan play in international
terrorism?
Rashid: Pakistan remains the global center for terrorism and for the
remnants of al-Qaida, which is still very strong here. The fact is, after
Sept. 11, despite the many crackdowns made by the military regime of Gen.
Pervez Musharraf, we haven't effectively shut down the Pakistani militant
groups. The reason for that is that these groups are very closely tied into
the military's foreign policy, especially with respect to Kashmir and
Afghanistan. The militant groups here have not been crushed and if the
madrassas they control -- they all control a certain number of such
religious schools -- are not shut down, we're not going to see an end to
militancy here.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: So in other words, despite Musharraf's claims to be
combating terrorism -- claims that he repeated in his speech to Pakistan on
Thursday evening -- he is not doing enough. Is that what you are saying?
Rashid: When crackdowns do occur, they aren't effective. Three hundred, or
even 2,000, people are picked up, they're held for 90 days and then they are
freed as soon as the attention and pressure from the West has stopped. There
has never been an organized campaign to combat it. It has never taken place.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: In his speech, Musharraf spoke quite a bit about the July 7
bombings in London. What was the main message he was trying to communicate
to his nation?
Three of the four London bombers came from families with Pakistani
origins.
Rashid: His main message was a very positive one. He said we must combat
extremism and launch a jihad against radicalism. He asked that people
mobilize and not vote for extremists and so on. But there has been no
shortage of such speeches. The main question is whether they will be
followed by any meaningful action.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Musharraf also emphasized that the London bombers were born
and raised in England as though he were trying to take the blame off of
Pakistan. What was he trying to say?
Rashid: The message was that you don't need to come to Pakistan to become a
fanatic. You can become a fanatic in Yorkshire, in Leeds or anywhere in
England because there's enough extremism there too. That's what he was
alluding to.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: You mentioned before that there is a lot of work to do in
Pakistan when it comes to cracking down on extremism. But what can the West
do to keep up pressure on the country and on Musharraf to energetically
combat fanaticism and terrorism?
Rashid: The biggest mistake the West has made with Pakistan since 9/11 has
been the pursuit of private diplomacy. It hasn't been made public. The West
should spell out exactly what is expected of Pakistan and the regime. US
President George W. Bush, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, German
Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, they keep praising Pakistan and saying it is
doing a great job hunting down al-Qaida and the Taliban, but behind the
scenes they are whistling a completely different tune. The West needs to
have one policy which should be in the public domain. Then the Pakistani
public would insist that Musharraf fulfil these demands.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: But Musharraf is already under great pressure as he tries to
walk the fine line between being allied with the West in the war on terror
while at the same time having powerful factions in his society that are
radicalized and extreme.
Rashid: But that has been the argument for the last four years. The fact is,
Musharraf is still here, he is still very much in power and absolutely
nothing has been done about extremism. It is clear that Musharraf has a very
political agenda. He wants to be re-elected in 2007 and he wants to remain
in office until 2012. And for that, he needs votes. At the same time,
though, he has been trying to be a good partner with the West. But his
political agenda takes precedence over any commitments to combating
extremism and terrorism. An army general cannot have a political agenda
while he is trying to crack down on terror.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: One of the reasons the West is not putting too much pressure
on Musharraf is that it is afraid of what would happen if he were no longer
there. He has been targeted by assassination attempts twice in his own
country. What would happen if his government were toppled or if he were
killed?
Rashid: I have no doubt that the army would take over again. People are
afraid because the country has nuclear weapons and they think the country
would fall apart. I don't believe any of that would happen. There would be
continuity.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Since the July 7 bombings, there has been lots of focus on
the madrassas as a breeding ground for terrorism and radicalism. What role
do these religious schools play in Pakistan?
Pakistani leader Gen. Pervez Musharraf. Many think he is not doing
enough to combat terrorism in his country.
Rashid: The London bombers came to Pakistan, but don't think they came to
attend a madrassa. I think they came here to make contacts with militant
groups and possibly to get training. The majority of madrassas in
Pakistan -- I would say around 80 percent -- play a traditional role. That
means they teach the Koran and then produce mullahs or religious leaders --
just like religious schools in any religion. But in Pakistan, a number of
madrassas have been taken over by militant groups and it has become a sort
of badge of honor for the extremists. These madrassas have become recruiting
platforms for these extremist groups. But it is difficult to close them down
because they are run by the militant groups Musharraf needs for other
aspects of his foreign policy.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: It is suspected that Osama bin Laden is on the run or hiding
somewhere in Pakistan. What role does he still play in international
terrorism?
Rashid: He is on the run. His main priority at the moment is to stay alive.
At the most, he may be able to provide some strategic directives through his
support group. But he's not in a position to run day-to-day operations.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Some say that he is in Pakistan and that the Pakistani
secret services know where he is and could catch him, but they are not
willing to.
Rashid: He is certainly in Pakistan because Pakistan has traditionally had
the best infrastructure for al-Qaida. I don't think the Pakistani military
knows where he is, but they aren't looking very hard either because they
fear the military support they get from the United States would disappear as
soon as bin Laden is caught.
Osama bin Laden is likely in the mountains of Pakistan.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was recently in
Washington and Bush promised closer cooperation -- even support for India's
civil nuclear program. What does that mean for Pakistan?
Rashid: The biggest fear of the Pakistani military is the new American
relationship with India. The fact that the Americans are even willing to
work with India's nuclear program now -- something they would never do with
Pakistan -- makes the military very nervous. They want to keep the Americans
on board, but the Pakistanis know that the long term interests of the United
States lie with India. The goal of the Pakistani military is to keep the
Americans on its side for as long as possible.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Where do you see Pakistan in 10 years?
Rashid: The country has a lot of potential and there is a democratic force
here. But the main powers in the country at the moment are without a doubt
the military and the fundamentalists.
Interview conducted by Matthias Gebauer and Charles Hawley
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© SPIEGEL ONLINE 2005
All Rights Reserved
Reproduction only allowed with the permission of SPIEGELnet GmbH
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