Re: CO2 Measurement Problems



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Topic: Politics > Politics-USA
User: "hanson"
Date: 29 Aug 2004 04:19:04 PM
Object: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems
"Daffy Duck" <duck@disney.com> wrote in message
news:xtnYc.2390$H23.23429@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...

From: http://www.john-daly.com .....

Daffy, you are going to rile up all the green turds in this NG. When
hearing the name Daly their jealousy makes them become incontinent.
When Daly departed, his corpse was not even cold yet, but they already
were on the way to ***** on his grave. I ain't kidden. Check the archive.
It is of course an empirical fact and the right conclusion what you have
posted via http://www.john-daly.com/zjiceco2.htm wherein it states:
"The basis of most of the IPCC conclusions on anthropogenic causes and
on projections of climatic change is the assumption of low level of CO2
in the pre-industrial atmosphere. This assumption, based on glaciological
studies, is false. Therefore IPCC projections should not be used for
national and global economic planning. The climatically inefficient and
economically disastrous Kydioto Protocol, based on IPCC projections, was
correctly defined by President George W. Bush as "fatally flawed".
This criticism was recently followed by the President of Russia Vlad Putin.
I hope that their rational views might save the world from enormous
damage that could be induced by implementing recommendations
based on distorted science."
This is an example which shows that people have finally become wise to
the real and truel intent and goals of environmentalism which can be seen
in their green enviro bible that teaches:
:= "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
:= believe is true ... -- Paul Watson, Greenpeace, and ......
:= "A lot of environmental [political] messages are simply not
:= accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and...
:= "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little
:= mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest."
:= -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as
:= a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer)
HEED THIS:
= The green movement was always & only a sick machination=
= & a cover to get $$$ grants, permit charges & user fees to =
= feed green shits, be they politicians, consultants, activists or=
= regulators. Environmentalism is just a despicable evil green=
= $$$$$$ game without any redeeming value, nor any intent =
= to save anything. This 40 year old scam is now threatened =
= which is why all those leeching green turds are whining =
hanson

.

User: "Michael Tobis"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 30 Aug 2004 09:37:02 AM
"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote in message

"The basis of most of the IPCC conclusions on anthropogenic causes and
on projections of climatic change is the assumption of low level of CO2
in the pre-industrial atmosphere. This assumption, based on glaciological
studies, is false.

That's contradicts everything I've ever heard the glaciologists or
climatologists I know say on the subject. (I'll add that that this
topic comes up rather often.)
Every time I've ever seen that record plotted it looks something like
this:
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/fig3-2.htm
Note especially figures b, c and d, which represent the glaciological
record you mention.
So, do you actually have any evidence other than what somebody said on
his website that contradicts widely held scientific opinion based on
direct measurement? If you don't find IPCC a credible source, any
other scientific reference will do.
mt
.
User: "hanson"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 30 Aug 2004 10:28:56 AM
........ahahaha......., I surely called the shots, when I said:
"Daffy, you are going to rile up all the green turds in this NG"
and good old Roger promptly fulfilled the prophecy and led the
charge followed by Michael....ahahaha........AHAHAHAHAHA..:
"Michael Tobis" <mt@3planes.com> wrote in message
news:bcaf804.0408300637.54400756@posting.google.com...

"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote in message

"The basis of most of the IPCC conclusions on anthropogenic
causes and on projections of climatic change is the assumption
of low level of CO2 in the pre-industrial atmosphere.
This assumption, based on glaciological studies, is false.


[hanson]
ahahaha...... Michael, I didn't *write* (author) that above para.
I *quoted* Daly from Daffy post. What you have done here is
classical green turdry in full accord with the instructions of your
green bible that indoctrinated you with and instructed you to
promulgate that
:= "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
:= believe is true ... -- Paul Watson, Greenpeace, and ......
:= "A lot of environmental [political] messages are simply not
:= accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and...
:= "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little
:= mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest."
:= -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as
:= a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer)


[Michael Tobis]

That's contradicts everything I've ever heard the glaciologists or
climatologists I know say on the subject. (I'll add that that this
topic comes up rather often.)
Every time I've ever seen that record plotted it looks something like
this:
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/fig3-2.htm
Note especially figures b, c and d, which represent the glaciological
record you mention.

[hanson]
So, that's what you like to believe, Michael. Cool. But remember your
perceptions are tainted by your green slant from your enviro bible
that indoctrinated you with and instructed you to promulgate that
:= "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
:= believe is true ... -- Paul Watson, Greenpeace, and ......
:= "A lot of environmental [political] messages are simply not
:= accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and...
:= "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little
:= mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest."
:= -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as
:= a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer)


[Michael Tobis]

So, do you actually have any evidence other than what somebody
said on his website that contradicts widely held scientific opinion
based on direct measurement? If you don't find IPCC a credible
source, any other scientific reference will do.
mt

[hanson]
I don't have to explain anything, Mich. To me the situation is clear.
I accept the world as I see it and adapt accordingly, in contrast
to your green ilk that is whining & crying doom and worse, is
relentlessly looting/sponging off the public treasury, using the
teachings of your green bible (above), full well knowing that
= The green movement was always & only a sick machination=
= & a cover to get $$$ grants, permit charges & user fees to =
= feed green shits, be they politicians, consultants, activists or=
= regulators. Environmentalism is just a despicable evil green=
= $$$$$$ game without any redeeming value, nor any intent =
= to save anything. This 40 year old scam is now threatened =
= which is why all those leeching green turds are whining =


Daly was a great man... a man of keen substance, Michael.
When your green comrades in these NG lined up to ***** on Daly's
grave, while his corpse was still warm....does unmistakably show
the infantile hatred, fears and mentality of these enviro turds.
There is nothing mythical about them.
They are misanthropic green shits!
Here is that wonderful and true work from Daly again:
http://www.john-daly.com/zjiceco2.htm wherein it states:
"The basis of most of the IPCC conclusions on anthropogenic causes and
on projections of climatic change is the assumption of low level of CO2
in the pre-industrial atmosphere. This assumption, based on glaciological
studies, is false. Therefore IPCC projections should not be used for
national and global economic planning. The climatically inefficient and
economically disastrous Kydioto Protocol, based on IPCC projections, was
correctly defined by President George W. Bush as "fatally flawed".
This criticism was recently followed by the President of Russia Vlad Putin.
I hope that their rational views might save the world from enormous
damage that could be induced by implementing recommendations
based on distorted science."
ahahahaha.....ahahahanson
.
User: "Michael Tobis"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 31 Aug 2004 10:03:50 AM
"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote in message news:<YIHYc.2609$w%6.2211@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

"Michael Tobis" <mt@3planes.com> wrote in message
news:bcaf804.0408300637.54400756@posting.google.com...

"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote in message

"The basis of most of the IPCC conclusions on anthropogenic
causes and on projections of climatic change is the assumption
of low level of CO2 in the pre-industrial atmosphere.
This assumption, based on glaciological studies, is false.


[hanson]
ahahaha...... Michael, I didn't *write* (author) that above para.
I *quoted* Daly from Daffy post.

I understood that Daly said that. I was simply amazed that he did. It
contradicts everything I have seen on the subject in the scientific
literature. Of course, while I've seen some considerable amount of it,
I haven't seen all of it.
Therefore I politely asked if you knew what "glaciological studies" he
was referring to.
You replied (amid considerable shrieking and scatology) by asserting
that the quotation was 'wonderful and true', and repeating it.
Perhaps Daly was 'wonderful and true', and IPCC and the climatological
consensus is wrong.
In that case, the glaciological studies Daly referred to must exist.
You could be very helpful in protecting the world from major error by
pointing to so much as a *single observational study* showing a
*single pre-industrial ice core measurement* with higher atmospheric
CO2 concentrations than exist today.
(In my understanding, it's generally believed that the times when CO2
exceeded those of the present were millions of years ago. Ice cores
have been found which are almost a million years old, and the direct
measurements of CO2 concentrations in trapped bubbles have
consistently been under 300 ppmv in comparison with today's 360 ppmv.
Again, see
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/fig3-2.htm
and in particular compare figures a and d.)
If you reply with more shrieking the attentive reader will be forced
to conclude that you have no evidence other than Daly's unsupported
claim.
mt
.
User: "hanson"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 31 Aug 2004 02:46:36 PM
"Michael Tobis" <mt@3planes.com> wrote in message
news:bcaf804.0408310703.7c7d68d3@posting.google.com...

"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote in message

news:<YIHYc.2609$w%6.2211@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...


"Michael Tobis" <mt@3planes.com> wrote in message
news:bcaf804.0408300637.54400756@posting.google.com...

"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote in message

"The basis of most of the IPCC conclusions on anthropogenic
causes and on projections of climatic change is the assumption
of low level of CO2 in the pre-industrial atmosphere.
This assumption, based on glaciological studies, is false.


[hanson]
ahahaha...... Michael, I didn't *write* (author) that above para.
I *quoted* Daly from Daffy post.


[Michael Tobis]

I understood that Daly said that. I was simply amazed that he did. It
contradicts everything I have seen on the subject in the scientific
literature. Of course, while I've seen some considerable amount of it,
I haven't seen all of it.
Therefore I politely asked if you knew what "glaciological studies" he
was referring to.
You replied (amid considerable shrieking and scatology) by asserting
that the quotation was 'wonderful and true', and repeating it.
Perhaps Daly was 'wonderful and true', and IPCC and the climatological
consensus is wrong.
In that case, the glaciological studies Daly referred to must exist.
You could be very helpful in protecting the world from major error by
pointing to so much as a *single observational study* showing a
*single pre-industrial ice core measurement* with higher atmospheric
CO2 concentrations than exist today.
(In my understanding, it's generally believed that the times when CO2
exceeded those of the present were millions of years ago. Ice cores
have been found which are almost a million years old, and the direct
measurements of CO2 concentrations in trapped bubbles have
consistently been under 300 ppmv in comparison with today's 360 ppmv.
Again, see
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/fig3-2.htm
and in particular compare figures a and d.)
If you reply with more shrieking the attentive reader will be forced
to conclude that you have no evidence other than Daly's unsupported
claim.
mt

[hanson]
......AHAHAHAHAHA.......ahahahahaha.......Michael, Michael, Michael......
YOU are worse the any of the other respondents who lined up in this
call for green turds. You did it twice. --- The point of this entire exercise
was the DEMONSTRATION OF THE FANATICISM, THE INTOLERANCE
AND THE MISANTHROPY THAT PROFUSELY PERMEATES AND PREVAILS IN
THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY -- -The demonstration was highly
successful. I did it merely by exercising EXACTLY THE SAME MO that the
green turds do CONSTANTLY and INCESSANTLY, namely that:
:= "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
:= believe is true ... -- Paul Watson, Greenpeace, and ......
:= "A lot of environmental [political] messages are simply not
:= accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and...
:= "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little
:= mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest."
:= -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as
:= a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer)


.....and I did it with a single quote from someone else. Yet, even this
tid-bit was enough to draw out of you guys THE FANATICISM, THE
INTOLERANCE AND THE MISANTHROPY THAT SO PROFUSELY
PERMEATES AND PREVAILS IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY.
Here's is the quote again from the author that accomplished this,
the one who angered the green turds so insanely that they had lined
up to ***** onto his grave while his corpse was not even cold yet.
Here's this magic blurb again about which I get more and more the
impression that DALY IS HIGHLY LIKELY TO BE TRUE... otherwise
it would not have stirred up such an amount vile green reactions
and such truly sick enviro emotions:
Daly again: http://www.john-daly.com/zjiceco2.htm wherein it states:
"The basis of most of the IPCC conclusions on anthropogenic causes and
on projections of climatic change is the assumption of low level of CO2
in the pre-industrial atmosphere. This assumption, based on glaciological
studies, is false. Therefore IPCC projections should not be used for
national and global economic planning. The climatically inefficient and
economically disastrous Kydioto Protocol, based on IPCC projections, was
correctly defined by President George W. Bush as "fatally flawed".
This criticism was recently followed by the President of Russia Vlad Putin.
I hope that their rational views might save the world from enormous
damage that could be induced by implementing recommendations
based on distorted science."
It also bring into focus that these few lines by Daly may NOT be the
primary reason for the vile reaction of/by the green turds, since Daly's
word DO NOT OR CAN NOT HAVE ANY INFLUENCE ONTO THE CLIMATE
AT ALL........ahahahaha, therefore the real reason for this sick, green
behavior by the enviro turds is then exactly what the public at large
had begun to realize, namely that
= The green movement was always & only a sick machination=
= & a cover to get $$$ grants, permit charges & user fees to =
= feed green shits, be they politicians, consultants, activists or=
= regulators. Environmentalism is just a despicable evil green=
= $$$$$$ game without any redeeming value, nor any intent =
= to save anything. This 40 year old scam is now threatened =
= which is why all those leeching green turds are whining =
ahahahaha.......ahahanson
.

User: "Steve Schulin"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 31 Aug 2004 04:04:06 PM
In article <bcaf804.0408310703.7c7d68d3@posting.google.com>,
(Michael Tobis) wrote:

"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote...

"Michael Tobis" <

> wrote...

"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote in message

"The basis of most of the IPCC conclusions on anthropogenic
causes and on projections of climatic change is the assumption
of low level of CO2 in the pre-industrial atmosphere.
This assumption, based on glaciological studies, is false.


[hanson]
ahahaha...... Michael, I didn't *write* (author) that above para.
I *quoted* Daly from Daffy post.


I understood that Daly said that. I was simply amazed that he did. It
contradicts everything I have seen on the subject in the scientific
literature. Of course, while I've seen some considerable amount of it,
I haven't seen all of it.

Therefore I politely asked if you knew what "glaciological studies" he
was referring to.

You replied (amid considerable shrieking and scatology) by asserting
that the quotation was 'wonderful and true', and repeating it.

Perhaps Daly was 'wonderful and true', and IPCC and the climatological
consensus is wrong.

In that case, the glaciological studies Daly referred to must exist.

You could be very helpful in protecting the world from major error by
pointing to so much as a *single observational study* showing a
*single pre-industrial ice core measurement* with higher atmospheric
CO2 concentrations than exist today.

(In my understanding, it's generally believed that the times when CO2
exceeded those of the present were millions of years ago. Ice cores
have been found which are almost a million years old, and the direct
measurements of CO2 concentrations in trapped bubbles have
consistently been under 300 ppmv in comparison with today's 360 ppmv.
Again, see
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/fig3-2.htm
and in particular compare figures a and d.)

If you reply with more shrieking the attentive reader will be forced
to conclude that you have no evidence other than Daly's unsupported
claim.

mt

The quote attributed to the late Mr. Daly is actually from the March
2004 Senate hearing testimony of Zbigniew Jaworowski. His argument is
that ice cores underrepresent the atmospheric CO2. His testimony --
which describes his reasoning and provides various background and
references -- is posted at http://www.john-daly.com/zjiceco2.htm
Very truly,
Steve Schulin
http://www.nuclear.com
.
User: "Ian St. John"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 31 Aug 2004 07:05:25 PM
Steve Schulin wrote:

In article <bcaf804.0408310703.7c7d68d3@posting.google.com>,

<snip>

The quote attributed to the late Mr. Daly is actually from the March
2004 Senate hearing testimony of Zbigniew Jaworowski. His argument is
that ice cores underrepresent the atmospheric CO2. His testimony --
which describes his reasoning and provides various background and
references -- is posted at http://www.john-daly.com/zjiceco2.htm

And it is obviously his own opinion ( given as testimony, not published as
science) mostly emphasising unknowns and possible flaws without ever once
mentioning that the current analysis is cross checked against other studies
and has stood up to rigorous review.
.
User: "Steve Schulin"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 31 Aug 2004 08:16:56 PM
In article <8n8Zc.10133$7i2.596317@news20.bellglobal.com>,
"Ian St. John" <istjohn@noemail.ca> wrote:

Steve Schulin wrote:

In article <bcaf804.0408310703.7c7d68d3@posting.google.com>,

<snip>

The quote attributed to the late Mr. Daly is actually from the March
2004 Senate hearing testimony of Zbigniew Jaworowski. His argument is
that ice cores underrepresent the atmospheric CO2. His testimony --
which describes his reasoning and provides various background and
references -- is posted at http://www.john-daly.com/zjiceco2.htm


And it is obviously his own opinion ( given as testimony, not published as
science) mostly emphasising unknowns and possible flaws without ever once
mentioning that the current analysis is cross checked against other studies
and has stood up to rigorous review.

His testimony mentions that he has previously published on this specific
subject in peer-reviewed venues. He provides two citations in this
regard. He also cites others' peer reviewed work using non-ice-related
data which he says conflicts with the uniform lowball #s widely endorsed
for preindustrial era.
Here's the two ice core publications:
* Jaworowski, Z., T.V. Segalstad, and N. Ono, Do glaciers tell a true
atmospheric CO2 story? The Science of the Total Environment, 1992. 114:
p. 227-284.
* Jaworowski, Z., Ancient atmosphere - validity of ice records. Environ.
Sci. & Pollut. Res., 1994. 1(3): p. 161-171.
Here's the three non-ice core publications:
* Slocum, G., Has the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere changed
significantly since the beginning of the twentieth century? Month.
Weather Rev., 1955(October): p. 225-231.
* Callendar, G.S., On the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.
Tellus, 1958. 10: p. 243-248.
* Wagner, F., et al., Century-scale shifts in Early Holocene atmospheric
CO2 concentration. Science, 1999. 284: p. 1971-1973.
Very truly,
Steve Schulin
http://www.nuclear.com
.
User: "Michael Tobis"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 05 Sep 2004 06:14:36 PM
Thank you. That's a more useful response than you have given on
previous occasions on this subject, and vastly more useful than
Hanson's, obviously.
I remain very doubtful that this will prove to be a strong argument
but I will consider the matter further.
Michael Tobis
Steve Schulin <steve.schulin@nuclear.com> wrote in message news:<steve.schulin-

His testimony mentions that he has previously published on this specific
subject in peer-reviewed venues. He provides two citations in this
regard. He also cites others' peer reviewed work using non-ice-related
data which he says conflicts with the uniform lowball #s widely endorsed
for preindustrial era.

Here's the two ice core publications:

* Jaworowski, Z., T.V. Segalstad, and N. Ono, Do glaciers tell a true
atmospheric CO2 story? The Science of the Total Environment, 1992. 114:
p. 227-284.

* Jaworowski, Z., Ancient atmosphere - validity of ice records. Environ.
Sci. & Pollut. Res., 1994. 1(3): p. 161-171.

Here's the three non-ice core publications:

* Slocum, G., Has the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere changed
significantly since the beginning of the twentieth century? Month.
Weather Rev., 1955(October): p. 225-231.

* Callendar, G.S., On the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.
Tellus, 1958. 10: p. 243-248.

* Wagner, F., et al., Century-scale shifts in Early Holocene atmospheric
CO2 concentration. Science, 1999. 284: p. 1971-1973.

Very truly,

Steve Schulin
http://www.nuclear.com

.
User: "hanson"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 06 Sep 2004 11:01:24 AM
"Michael Tobis" <mt@3planes.com> wrote in message
news:bcaf804.0409051514.711a94a3@posting.google.com...

Steve Schulin <steve.schulin@nuclear.com> wrote in

<steve.schulin-D37054.21165631082004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>

Thank you. That's a more useful response than you have given on
previous occasions on this subject, and vastly more useful than
Hanson's, obviously.

...........ahahaha.....ahahahaha....AHAHAHAHA......."obviously", ...
.... "obviously", for you & other green turds who were indoctrinated
by the green bible that instructed them to follow and practice that
= "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
= believe is true ... -- Paul Watson, Greenpeace, and ......
= "A lot of environmental [political] messages are simply not
= accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and...
= "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little
= mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest."
= -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as
= a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer)
....... "obviously", for you and other little green idiots who can't see
that they are facilitators and enablers for the real green sharpies
who ***** the public's trust und sponge off the public trough, despite
the growing knowlege in the public that
= The green movement was always & only a sick machination=
= & a cover to get $$$ grants, permit charges & user fees to =
= feed green shits, be they politicians, consultants, activists or=
= regulators. Environmentalism is just a despicable evil green=
= $$$$$$ game without any redeeming value, nor any intent =
= to save anything. This 40 year old scam is now threatened =
= which is why all those leeching green turds are whining =
ahahahaha........ahahahahanson
[Michael Tobis]

I remain very doubtful that [these ice core publications]
will prove to be a strong argument
but I will consider the matter further.
Michael Tobis

[hanson]
.....and I will "remain very doubtful" that YOUR considerations
will have any influence on the waxing or waning of glaciers
at all,.....smearing your cyber green ***** all over glaciers and
inserting strategically placed cybwer green turds onto glaciers
will hardly have any effects whatsoever......ahahahaha.......but
please keep doing your thing, Tobis, in full accord with my
creed: "Let'em sing....all of'em.....it's a beautiful choir"
ahahahaha.......ahahahanson

Steve Schulin <steve.schulin@nuclear.com> wrote in

<steve.schulin-D37054.21165631082004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>

His testimony mentions that he has previously published on this specific
subject in peer-reviewed venues. He provides two citations in this
regard. He also cites others' peer reviewed work using non-ice-related
data which he says conflicts with the uniform lowball #s widely endorsed
for preindustrial era.

Here's the two ice core publications:

* Jaworowski, Z., T.V. Segalstad, and N. Ono, Do glaciers tell a true
atmospheric CO2 story? The Science of the Total Environment, 1992. 114:
p. 227-284.

* Jaworowski, Z., Ancient atmosphere - validity of ice records. Environ.
Sci. & Pollut. Res., 1994. 1(3): p. 161-171.

Here's the three non-ice core publications:

* Slocum, G., Has the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere changed
significantly since the beginning of the twentieth century? Month.
Weather Rev., 1955(October): p. 225-231.

* Callendar, G.S., On the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.
Tellus, 1958. 10: p. 243-248.

* Wagner, F., et al., Century-scale shifts in Early Holocene atmospheric
CO2 concentration. Science, 1999. 284: p. 1971-1973.

Very truly,

Steve Schulin
http://www.nuclear.com

.

User: "Michael Tobis"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 07 Sep 2004 03:00:18 PM
I cannot easily obtain either referenced Jaworowski paper. The first
one ('92) is in the Citation Index (err, sorry 'Web of Science'
<cringe>). The second one, from '94, appears not to be.
Not including a self-citation, Jaworowski '92 has been cited only 7
times in the literature according to the citation index, mostly in
opinion pieces.
However, there is a citation in Science 1993 in:
The Ice Record of Greenhouse Gases.
Raynaud, D.; Jouzel, J.; Barnola, J. M.; Chappellaz, J.; Delmas,
R. J.; Lorius, C.
Science Volume 259(5097)             12 February 1993             pp
926-934
"The uncertainties concerning the reliability of the record increase
with the age of the ice and the depth of recovery of the core, and it
has been suggested that the long-term CO2 record is an artifact caused
by the structural changes of the ice with depth and by post-coring
processes [8]. "
where reference 8 is Jaworowski '92.
Reynaud et al go on to refute this and related positions quite in the
next two paragraph.
===>
The record itself provides evidence that the changes observed are not
caused by the presence of air hydrates or fractures. For example,
increases in CO2 and CH4 concentrations in the Vostok core are similar
for the last two glacial-interglacial transitions, even though only
the most recent transition is located in the brittle zone. Such
evidence argues that the atmospheric trace-gas signal is not strongly
affected by the presence of the brittle zone (an increasing scatter of
the trace-gas concentrations can be observed in ice samples
contaminated by drilling fluid intrusions; such scattered data must be
interpreted with caution). Also, the last glacial-interglacial
transition has been investigated along the two Antarctic ice cores
from Byrd and Vostok stations. The transition is in the region of
air-hydrate formation at Byrd but not at Vostok, yet the CO2 and CH4
records from the two cores are similar. We are consequently confident
that the large CO2 and CH4 increases, recorded during the glacial to
interglacial transitions and showing similar amplitudes from one core
to another, are not an artifact linked with the air-hydrate occurence
in ice.
More generally, the good agreement obtained for the
glacial-interglacial changes of CO2 [11-14] and CH4 levels [15-17]
recorded in different types of ice (with and without air hydrates or
fractures or cracks, as well as different temperatures, snow
accumulation rates, ice structures, and so on) on the same core
(Vostok) or among different cores support the notion that, overall,
the long-term trace-gas record from ice cores accurately reflects
atmospheric changes. That the records can be reproduced with a new set
of measurements performed several years after the initial measurements
[see [13,18] for instance] is another reason for confidence in the
atmospheric signal of the ice record of trace gases.
<===
Further significant citation of Jaworowski '92 doesn't appear in the
peer review literature.
Jaworowski's review makes no bones about its position:
===>
Until 1985 most studies of CO2 in gas inclusions in pre-industrial ice
indicated that CO2 concentrations (up to 2450 ppm) were higher than
the current atmospheric level. After 1985, lower pre-industrial CO2
values were reported, and used as evidence for a recent man-made CO2
increase. The errors in these revised values, however, are of a
similar magnitude to the apparent increase in atmospheric CO2 level.
The assumptions used in estimating lower CO2 values in past
atmospheres have been: no liquid phase in polar ice; younger age of
air than of ice due to free gas exchange between deep firn and the
atmosphere; and no change in composition of air inclusions. These
assumptions are shown to be invalid. Liquid saline water exists in
ice at low temperatures, even below -70-degrees-C; airtight ice layers
are ubiquitous in Antarctic firn; and more than 20 physico-chemical
processes operating in situ and in ice cores contribute to the
alteration of the chemical composition of air inclusions. The
permeable ice sheet with its capillary liquid network acts as a sieve
which redistributes elements, isotopes, and micro-particles.
Thirty-six to 100% of air recovered from old ice is contaminated by
recent atmospheric air during field and laboratory operations. The
value of approximately 290 ppm, widely accepted from glacier studies
for the pre-industrial atmospheric CO2 level, apparently results from:
invalid assumptions; processes in ice sheets; artifacts in ice cores;
and arbitrary rejection of high readings. To date, glaciological
studies are not able to provide a reliable reconstruction of either
the CO2 level in pre-industrial and ancient atmospheres or
paleoclimates. Instead these studies have led to a widely accepted
false dogma of man-made climatic warming. This dogma may have
enormous negative impact on our common future.
<===
To me this reads as polemics and not as science, but I suppose one
could argue that I am prejudiced.
Still I note that this is Jaworowski's only paper on any closely
related topic. Mostly he appears to be interested in anthropogenic
radiation from nuclear power. The citation index does not list the '94
paper, so I can't even see an abstract. Both appear in rather obscure
journals.
As far as I can tell, there was no followup to Reynaud's refutation,
and Jaworowski's paper has had little impact in the scientific
discussion since.
Of course, none of this proves that Jaworowski is wrong, but it's
going to be hard to get any further in investigating it without
getting a copy of the original article. (It's in a rather obscure
journal, so despite the excellent access from the University of
Chicago, all I can immediately access is the abstract.)
Has anyone here actually seen this paper? Mr. Schulin, perhaps? Please
let me know if you can get me a copy, thanks! Has anyone followed on
to this work in the past dozen years?
Meanwhile I will be reading Reynaud et al, which appears to be an
excellent review of the field.
mt
.
User: "Steve Schulin"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 08 Sep 2004 06:47:46 AM
In article <bcaf804.0409071200.3a4af78@posting.google.com>,
(Michael Tobis) wrote:

I cannot easily obtain either referenced Jaworowski paper. The first
one ('92) is in the Citation Index (err, sorry 'Web of Science'
<cringe>). The second one, from '94, appears not to be.

Not including a self-citation, Jaworowski '92 has been cited only 7
times in the literature according to the citation index, mostly in
opinion pieces.

However, there is a citation in Science 1993 in:

The Ice Record of Greenhouse Gases.
Raynaud, D.; Jouzel, J.; Barnola, J. M.; Chappellaz, J.; Delmas,
R. J.; Lorius, C.
Science Volume 259(5097)             12 February 1993             pp
926-934

"The uncertainties concerning the reliability of the record increase
with the age of the ice and the depth of recovery of the core, and it
has been suggested that the long-term CO2 record is an artifact caused
by the structural changes of the ice with depth and by post-coring
processes [8]. "

where reference 8 is Jaworowski '92.

Reynaud et al go on to refute this and related positions quite in the
next two paragraph.

===>
The record itself provides evidence that the changes observed are not
caused by the presence of air hydrates or fractures. For example,
increases in CO2 and CH4 concentrations in the Vostok core are similar
for the last two glacial-interglacial transitions, even though only
the most recent transition is located in the brittle zone. ...

This makes it sound like the dating and the CO2 measurements are
independent. Is that true? Or did the CO2 and CH4 concentration change
prompt the researchers to say this looks like a glacial-interglacial
transition?

... Such
evidence argues that the atmospheric trace-gas signal is not strongly
affected by the presence of the brittle zone (an increasing scatter of
the trace-gas concentrations can be observed in ice samples
contaminated by drilling fluid intrusions; such scattered data must be
interpreted with caution). Also, the last glacial-interglacial
transition has been investigated along the two Antarctic ice cores
from Byrd and Vostok stations. The transition is in the region of
air-hydrate formation at Byrd but not at Vostok, yet the CO2 and CH4
records from the two cores are similar. We are consequently confident
that the large CO2 and CH4 increases, recorded during the glacial to
interglacial transitions and showing similar amplitudes from one core
to another, are not an artifact linked with the air-hydrate occurence
in ice.

More generally, the good agreement obtained for the
glacial-interglacial changes of CO2 [11-14] and CH4 levels [15-17]
recorded in different types of ice (with and without air hydrates or
fractures or cracks, as well as different temperatures, snow
accumulation rates, ice structures, and so on) on the same core
(Vostok) or among different cores support the notion that, overall,
the long-term trace-gas record from ice cores accurately reflects
atmospheric changes. That the records can be reproduced with a new set
of measurements performed several years after the initial measurements
[see [13,18] for instance] is another reason for confidence in the
atmospheric signal of the ice record of trace gases.
<===

Further significant citation of Jaworowski '92 doesn't appear in the
peer review literature.

Jaworowski's review makes no bones about its position:

===>
Until 1985 most studies of CO2 in gas inclusions in pre-industrial ice
indicated that CO2 concentrations (up to 2450 ppm) were higher than
the current atmospheric level. After 1985, lower pre-industrial CO2
values were reported, and used as evidence for a recent man-made CO2
increase. The errors in these revised values, however, are of a
similar magnitude to the apparent increase in atmospheric CO2 level.
The assumptions used in estimating lower CO2 values in past
atmospheres have been: no liquid phase in polar ice; younger age of
air than of ice due to free gas exchange between deep firn and the
atmosphere; and no change in composition of air inclusions. These
assumptions are shown to be invalid. Liquid saline water exists in
ice at low temperatures, even below -70-degrees-C; airtight ice layers
are ubiquitous in Antarctic firn; and more than 20 physico-chemical
processes operating in situ and in ice cores contribute to the
alteration of the chemical composition of air inclusions. The
permeable ice sheet with its capillary liquid network acts as a sieve
which redistributes elements, isotopes, and micro-particles.
Thirty-six to 100% of air recovered from old ice is contaminated by
recent atmospheric air during field and laboratory operations. The
value of approximately 290 ppm, widely accepted from glacier studies
for the pre-industrial atmospheric CO2 level, apparently results from:
invalid assumptions; processes in ice sheets; artifacts in ice cores;
and arbitrary rejection of high readings. To date, glaciological
studies are not able to provide a reliable reconstruction of either
the CO2 level in pre-industrial and ancient atmospheres or
paleoclimates. Instead these studies have led to a widely accepted
false dogma of man-made climatic warming. This dogma may have
enormous negative impact on our common future.
<===

To me this reads as polemics and not as science, but I suppose one
could argue that I am prejudiced.

Compare his Congressional testimony to, say, Michael Mann's.
Jaworowski's assessment includes footnotes. Not so the Mann statement at
www.nam.org/s_nam/bin.asp?CID=201558& DID=226975&DOC=FILE.PDF


Still I note that this is Jaworowski's only paper on any closely
related topic. Mostly he appears to be interested in anthropogenic
radiation from nuclear power. The citation index does not list the '94
paper, so I can't even see an abstract. Both appear in rather obscure
journals.

Have you read the link to the Daly page which Hansen provided? It
contains the testimony from which he posted excerpt. Jaworowski
describes extensive background on closely related topics, including his
work involving lead published in Nature.


As far as I can tell, there was no followup to Reynaud's refutation,
and Jaworowski's paper has had little impact in the scientific
discussion since.

Of course, none of this proves that Jaworowski is wrong, but it's
going to be hard to get any further in investigating it without
getting a copy of the original article. (It's in a rather obscure
journal, so despite the excellent access from the University of
Chicago, all I can immediately access is the abstract.)

Has anyone here actually seen this paper? Mr. Schulin, perhaps? ...

No. But I'll put it and the post-Raynaud paper on my library to-do list.
The National Library of Medicine here in Bethesda might have both, and
the Library of Congress has a world class journal collection too.

... Please
let me know if you can get me a copy, thanks! Has anyone followed on
to this work in the past dozen years?

Meanwhile I will be reading Reynaud et al, which appears to be an
excellent review of the field.

mt

.
User: "Michael Tobis"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 08 Sep 2004 05:49:32 PM
Steve Schulin <steve.schulin@nuclear.com> wrote in message news:<steve.schulin-A59514.07474608092004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>...

In article <bcaf804.0409071200.3a4af78@posting.google.com>,
mt@3planes.com (Michael Tobis) wrote:

===> [Reynaud et al]:
The record itself provides evidence that the changes observed are not
caused by the presence of air hydrates or fractures. For example,
increases in CO2 and CH4 concentrations in the Vostok core are similar
for the last two glacial-interglacial transitions, even though only
the most recent transition is located in the brittle zone. ...


This makes it sound like the dating and the CO2 measurements are
independent. Is that true? Or did the CO2 and CH4 concentration change
prompt the researchers to say this looks like a glacial-interglacial
transition?

You're just making this up, right?
How about we just say that there are two dominant events widely
thought to be similar, one of which was subject to the proposed
distortion, and yet the gross signs that some would have attributed to
that distortion did not appear.

To me this reads as polemics and not as science, but I suppose one
could argue that I am prejudiced.


Compare his Congressional testimony to, say, Michael Mann's.
Jaworowski's assessment includes footnotes. Not so the Mann statement at
www.nam.org/s_nam/bin.asp?CID=201558& DID=226975&DOC=FILE.PDF

That's pretty silly. Do you want congressional testimony to turn into
who can bring along the most irrelevant citations? Do you think Mann
couldn't cite references?

Still I note that this is Jaworowski's only paper on any closely
related topic. Mostly he appears to be interested in anthropogenic
radiation from nuclear power. The citation index does not list the '94
paper, so I can't even see an abstract. Both appear in rather obscure
journals.


Have you read the link to the Daly page which Hansen provided? It
contains the testimony from which he posted excerpt. Jaworowski
describes extensive background on closely related topics, including his
work involving lead published in Nature.

He succeeds in doing some spin, but I don't find his credentials as a
glaciologist compelling.
That doesn't mean he's wrong, understand.
Reynaud's refutation probably does, though, unless someone has come up
with a counterargument.
mt
.
User: "Steve Schulin"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 08 Sep 2004 07:58:55 PM
In article <bcaf804.0409081449.4d9cb92f@posting.google.com>,
(Michael Tobis) wrote:

Steve Schulin <steve.schulin@nuclear.com> wrote...

(Michael Tobis) wrote:
...

===> [Reynaud et al]:
The record itself provides evidence that the changes observed are not
caused by the presence of air hydrates or fractures. For example,
increases in CO2 and CH4 concentrations in the Vostok core are similar
for the last two glacial-interglacial transitions, even though only
the most recent transition is located in the brittle zone. ...


This makes it sound like the dating and the CO2 measurements are
independent. Is that true? Or did the CO2 and CH4 concentration change
prompt the researchers to say this looks like a glacial-interglacial
transition?


You're just making this up, right?

The questions? Yep. The dating of ice cores is quite a piece of
detective work. I'd be surprised to hear that the concentration change
was not one of the clues.


How about we just say that there are two dominant events widely
thought to be similar, one of which was subject to the proposed
distortion, and yet the gross signs that some would have attributed to
that distortion did not appear.

Not having seen the paper to which Raynaud et al. are replying, I
hesitate to share your proferred opinion on the matter. Is the fracture
phenomena that Raynaud et al. describe the same as the dense horizontal
cracking Jaworowski referred to in his 2004 testimony? I don't know.
Does it include the post-explosion cracking Jaworowski also referred to
in his 2004 testimony? I don't know. Jaworowski cites 20 or more
physico-chemical processes, mostly related to the presence of liquid
water, which contribute to the alteration of the original chemical
composition of the air inclusions in polar ice. Clathrate formation is
one of those 20-plus processes. He cites his own 1992 paper on this
20-plus argument, BTW.


To me this reads as polemics and not as science, but I suppose one
could argue that I am prejudiced.


Compare his Congressional testimony to, say, Michael Mann's.
Jaworowski's assessment includes footnotes. Not so the Mann statement at
www.nam.org/s_nam/bin.asp?CID=201558& DID=226975&DOC=FILE.PDF


That's pretty silly. Do you want congressional testimony to turn into
who can bring along the most irrelevant citations? ...

No. I can't imagine even giving your suggestion a second's
consideration. Did you make _that_ up?

... Do you think Mann
couldn't cite references?

No, but I do think you are prejudiced.


Still I note that this is Jaworowski's only paper on any closely
related topic. Mostly he appears to be interested in anthropogenic
radiation from nuclear power. The citation index does not list the '94
paper, so I can't even see an abstract. Both appear in rather obscure
journals.


Have you read the link to the Daly page which Hansen provided? It
contains the testimony from which he posted excerpt. Jaworowski
describes extensive background on closely related topics, including his
work involving lead published in Nature.


He succeeds in doing some spin, but I don't find his credentials as a
glaciologist compelling.

LOL - were you even born when he published his 1968 paper on lead
content in glacier ice? But I sure don't discourage skepticism. I might
not have mentioned it if you hadn't made the clearly erroneous claim
that "this is Jaworowski's only paper on any closely related topic."


That doesn't mean he's wrong, understand.

Reynaud's refutation probably does, though, unless someone has come up
with a counterargument.

mt

Very truly,
Steve Schulin
http://www.nuclear.com
.
User: "Michael Tobis"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 09 Sep 2004 11:01:26 AM
Steve Schulin <steve.schulin@nuclear.com> wrote in message news:<steve.schulin-0F8448.20585508092004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>...

In article <bcaf804.0409081449.4d9cb92f@posting.google.com>,
mt@3planes.com (Michael Tobis) wrote:

Steve Schulin <steve.schulin@nuclear.com> wrote...

mt@3planes.com (Michael Tobis) wrote:
...

===> [Reynaud et al]:
The record itself provides evidence that the changes observed are not
caused by the presence of air hydrates or fractures. For example,
increases in CO2 and CH4 concentrations in the Vostok core are similar
for the last two glacial-interglacial transitions, even though only
the most recent transition is located in the brittle zone. ...


This makes it sound like the dating and the CO2 measurements are
independent. Is that true? Or did the CO2 and CH4 concentration change
prompt the researchers to say this looks like a glacial-interglacial
transition?


You're just making this up, right?


The questions? Yep. The dating of ice cores is quite a piece of
detective work. I'd be surprised to hear that the concentration change
was not one of the clues.


Not having seen the paper to which Raynaud et al. are replying, I
hesitate to share your proferred opinion on the matter.

[etc. etc.]
Reynaud just points out that these processes are independent across
interglacial transitions and between ice cores, and that even the
Greenland and Antarctic cores yield the same results.
That's compelling evidence that no process that isn't global can have
significantly corrupted the record.
Repeating the original allegations doesn't answer that criticism.

To me this reads as polemics and not as science, but I suppose one
could argue that I am prejudiced.


Compare his Congressional testimony to, say, Michael Mann's.
Jaworowski's assessment includes footnotes. Not so the Mann statement at
www.nam.org/s_nam/bin.asp?CID=201558& DID=226975&DOC=FILE.PDF


That's pretty silly. Do you want congressional testimony to turn into
who can bring along the most irrelevant citations? ...


No. I can't imagine even giving your suggestion a second's
consideration. Did you make _that_ up?

No, you did, just there, at least implicitly: "Jaworski's includes
footnotes".

Why does that matter?

Still I note that this is Jaworowski's only paper on any closely
related topic.

He succeeds in doing some spin, but I don't find his credentials as a
glaciologist compelling.


LOL - were you even born when he published his 1968 paper on lead
content in glacier ice?

Alas, I remember 1968 quite well. It's a year worth recalling, as a
matter of fact.

But I sure don't discourage skepticism. I might
not have mentioned it if you hadn't made the clearly erroneous claim
that "this is Jaworowski's only paper on any closely related topic."

I didn't go as far back as '68 in the citation index. I could make the
case that it's not as closely related as all that, but I'm not one for
quibbles. I amend the statement to say at least that he has had no
recent publications related to this matter.
Most important, though, he was solidly rebutted in a major journal,
and so far as I know to date, there hasn't been a serious challenge to
that refutation. Do you know of any?
mt
.




User: "Eric Swanson"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 07 Sep 2004 06:04:06 PM
In article <bcaf804.0409071200.3a4af78@posting.google.com>,
says...


I cannot easily obtain either referenced Jaworowski paper. The first
one ('92) is in the Citation Index (err, sorry 'Web of Science'
<cringe>). The second one, from '94, appears not to be.

Not including a self-citation, Jaworowski '92 has been cited only 7
times in the literature according to the citation index, mostly in
opinion pieces.

However, there is a citation in Science 1993 in:

The Ice Record of Greenhouse Gases.
Raynaud, D.; Jouzel, J.; Barnola, J. M.; Chappellaz, J.; Delmas,
R. J.; Lorius, C.
Science Volume 259(5097)             12 February 1993             pp
926-934

"The uncertainties concerning the reliability of the record increase
with the age of the ice and the depth of recovery of the core, and it
has been suggested that the long-term CO2 record is an artifact caused
by the structural changes of the ice with depth and by post-coring
processes [8]. "

where reference 8 is Jaworowski '92.

Reynaud et al go on to refute this and related positions quite in the
next two paragraph.

===>
The record itself provides evidence that the changes observed are not
caused by the presence of air hydrates or fractures. For example,
increases in CO2 and CH4 concentrations in the Vostok core are similar
for the last two glacial-interglacial transitions, even though only
the most recent transition is located in the brittle zone. Such
evidence argues that the atmospheric trace-gas signal is not strongly
affected by the presence of the brittle zone (an increasing scatter of
the trace-gas concentrations can be observed in ice samples
contaminated by drilling fluid intrusions; such scattered data must be
interpreted with caution). Also, the last glacial-interglacial
transition has been investigated along the two Antarctic ice cores
from Byrd and Vostok stations. The transition is in the region of
air-hydrate formation at Byrd but not at Vostok, yet the CO2 and CH4
records from the two cores are similar. We are consequently confident
that the large CO2 and CH4 increases, recorded during the glacial to
interglacial transitions and showing similar amplitudes from one core
to another, are not an artifact linked with the air-hydrate occurence
in ice.

More generally, the good agreement obtained for the
glacial-interglacial changes of CO2 [11-14] and CH4 levels [15-17]
recorded in different types of ice (with and without air hydrates or
fractures or cracks, as well as different temperatures, snow
accumulation rates, ice structures, and so on) on the same core
(Vostok) or among different cores support the notion that, overall,
the long-term trace-gas record from ice cores accurately reflects
atmospheric changes. That the records can be reproduced with a new set
of measurements performed several years after the initial measurements
[see [13,18] for instance] is another reason for confidence in the
atmospheric signal of the ice record of trace gases.
<===

Further significant citation of Jaworowski '92 doesn't appear in the
peer review literature.

Jaworowski's review makes no bones about its position:

===>
Until 1985 most studies of CO2 in gas inclusions in pre-industrial ice
indicated that CO2 concentrations (up to 2450 ppm) were higher than
the current atmospheric level. After 1985, lower pre-industrial CO2
values were reported, and used as evidence for a recent man-made CO2
increase. The errors in these revised values, however, are of a
similar magnitude to the apparent increase in atmospheric CO2 level.
The assumptions used in estimating lower CO2 values in past
atmospheres have been: no liquid phase in polar ice; younger age of
air than of ice due to free gas exchange between deep firn and the
atmosphere; and no change in composition of air inclusions. These
assumptions are shown to be invalid. Liquid saline water exists in
ice at low temperatures, even below -70-degrees-C; airtight ice layers
are ubiquitous in Antarctic firn; and more than 20 physico-chemical
processes operating in situ and in ice cores contribute to the
alteration of the chemical composition of air inclusions. The
permeable ice sheet with its capillary liquid network acts as a sieve
which redistributes elements, isotopes, and micro-particles.
Thirty-six to 100% of air recovered from old ice is contaminated by
recent atmospheric air during field and laboratory operations. The
value of approximately 290 ppm, widely accepted from glacier studies
for the pre-industrial atmospheric CO2 level, apparently results from:
invalid assumptions; processes in ice sheets; artifacts in ice cores;
and arbitrary rejection of high readings. To date, glaciological
studies are not able to provide a reliable reconstruction of either
the CO2 level in pre-industrial and ancient atmospheres or
paleoclimates. Instead these studies have led to a widely accepted
false dogma of man-made climatic warming. This dogma may have
enormous negative impact on our common future.
<===

To me this reads as polemics and not as science, but I suppose one
could argue that I am prejudiced.

Still I note that this is Jaworowski's only paper on any closely
related topic. Mostly he appears to be interested in anthropogenic
radiation from nuclear power. The citation index does not list the '94
paper, so I can't even see an abstract. Both appear in rather obscure
journals.

As far as I can tell, there was no followup to Reynaud's refutation,
and Jaworowski's paper has had little impact in the scientific
discussion since.

Of course, none of this proves that Jaworowski is wrong, but it's
going to be hard to get any further in investigating it without
getting a copy of the original article. (It's in a rather obscure
journal, so despite the excellent access from the University of
Chicago, all I can immediately access is the abstract.)

Has anyone here actually seen this paper? Mr. Schulin, perhaps? Please
let me know if you can get me a copy, thanks! Has anyone followed on
to this work in the past dozen years?

Meanwhile I will be reading Reynaud et al, which appears to be an
excellent review of the field.

Thanks for the excellent post.
As I'm not familiar with the literature on the subject, I wondered whether
the contamination mentioned would be easily checked with tests for
trace gases that can only be due to recent industrial activity, such
as the CFC's that are often used as tracers for ocean circulation.
If these gases are absent in the gas retrieved from the ice cores, then,
I suggest that would refute the contention that there is contamination
of the CO2 also retrieved from these cores, due to modern air.
--
Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------
.


User: "Steve Schulin"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 06 Sep 2004 07:07:18 AM
In article <bcaf804.0409051514.711a94a3@posting.google.com>,
(Michael Tobis) wrote:

Thank you. That's a more useful response than you have given on
previous occasions on this subject, ...

LOL - is your confidence (in your recollection that I've ever addressed
this particular subject) as high here as for the rest of the
condescending clatter you've chosen to share?

... and vastly more useful than
Hanson's, obviously.

I remain very doubtful that this will prove to be a strong argument
but I will consider the matter further.

Michael Tobis

Steve Schulin <steve.schulin@nuclear.com> wrote in message
news:<steve.schulin-

His testimony mentions that he has previously published on this specific
subject in peer-reviewed venues. He provides two citations in this
regard. He also cites others' peer reviewed work using non-ice-related
data which he says conflicts with the uniform lowball #s widely endorsed
for preindustrial era.

Here's the two ice core publications:

* Jaworowski, Z., T.V. Segalstad, and N. Ono, Do glaciers tell a true
atmospheric CO2 story? The Science of the Total Environment, 1992. 114:
p. 227-284.

* Jaworowski, Z., Ancient atmosphere - validity of ice records. Environ.
Sci. & Pollut. Res., 1994. 1(3): p. 161-171.

Here's the three non-ice core publications:

* Slocum, G., Has the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere changed
significantly since the beginning of the twentieth century? Month.
Weather Rev., 1955(October): p. 225-231.

* Callendar, G.S., On the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.
Tellus, 1958. 10: p. 243-248.

* Wagner, F., et al., Century-scale shifts in Early Holocene atmospheric
CO2 concentration. Science, 1999. 284: p. 1971-1973.

Very truly,

Steve Schulin
http://www.nuclear.com

.






User: "H. E. Taylor"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 30 Aug 2004 08:56:02 PM
In article <YIHYc.2609$w%6.2211@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
<hanson@quick.net> hanson wrote:

[...]
"Michael Tobis" <mt@3planes.com> wrote in message
news:bcaf804.0408300637.54400756@posting.google.com..

[...]
So, do you actually have any evidence other than what somebody
said on his website that contradicts widely held scientific opinion
based on direct measurement? If you don't find IPCC a credible
source, any other scientific reference will do.
mt

[hanson]
I don't have to explain anything, Mich. To me the situation is clear.

This speaks volumes on hanson.
What a reprehensible scientific ignorance.
Nobody gives a good ***** what is clear to you.
What matters is what you can prove with cold hard data.

[...]

<kachung>
-het

--
"You can lie to me and you can lie to yourself,
but you can't lie to nature." -Khalihari
How's yer crap detector? http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/detector.html
H.E. Taylor http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/
.
User: "hanson"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 30 Aug 2004 10:00:38 PM
........ahahahahaha......., I surely called the shots when I said:
"Daffy, you are going to rile up all the green turds in this NG"
and good old Roger promptly fulfilled the prophecy and led the
charge, followed by Michael and now by "H. E. Taylor"
<het@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> who moaned in
news:4133DAB2.62B3@despam.autobahn.mb.ca...

[hanson]
I don't have to explain anything, Mich. To me the situation is clear.


[H. E. Taylor]

This speaks volumes on hanson. What a reprehensible scientific
ignorance. Nobody gives a good ***** what is clear to you.
What matters is what you can prove with cold hard data.

[hanson]
ahahaha......But Taylor, YOU apparently did " give a good *****"
and YOU responded as I predicted, or are YOU a "Nobody"?.......
.....then moreover, Taylor, I don't have to prove anything because
things are clear to me, unlike you who has engaged and expressed
here in an act of classical green turdry notions that are in full accord
with the instructions of your green bible that has indoctrinated you
with and instructed you to promulgate that
:= "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
:= believe is true ... -- Paul Watson, Greenpeace, and ......
:= "A lot of environmental [political] messages are simply not
:= accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and...
:= "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little
:= mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest."
:= -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as
:= a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer)
I, OTOH, do accept the world as I see it and adapt accordingly,
in contrast to your green ilk that is whining & crying doom, & worse
is relentlessly looting/sponging off the public treasury, using the
teachings of your green bible (above), full well knowing that
= The green movement was always & only a sick machination=
= & a cover to get $$$ grants, permit charges & user fees to =
= feed green shits, be they politicians, consultants, activists or=
= regulators. Environmentalism is just a despicable evil green=
= $$$$$$ game without any redeeming value, nor any intent =
= to save anything. This 40 year old scam is now threatened =
= which is why all those leeching green turds are whining =


Daly was a great man... a man of keen substance, Taylor.
When your green comrades in these NG lined up to ***** on Daly's
grave, while his corpse was still warm....does unmistakably show
the infantile hatred, fears and mentality of these enviro turds.
They are misanthropic green shits!
For your benefit, Taylor, here is that wonderful and true work from
Daly again: http://www.john-daly.com/zjiceco2.htm wherein it states:
"The basis of most of the IPCC conclusions on anthropogenic causes and
on projections of climatic change is the assumption of low level of CO2
in the pre-industrial atmosphere. This assumption, based on glaciological
studies, is false. Therefore IPCC projections should not be used for
national and global economic planning. The climatically inefficient and
economically disastrous Kydioto Protocol, based on IPCC projections, was
correctly defined by President George W. Bush as "fatally flawed".
This criticism was recently followed by the President of Russia Vlad Putin.
I hope that their rational views might save the world from enormous
damage that could be induced by implementing recommendations
based on distorted science."
ahahahaha.....ahahahanson
.


User: "Josh Halpern"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 30 Aug 2004 08:58:06 PM
hanson wrote:

.......ahahaha......., I surely called the shots, when I said:
"Daffy, you are going to rile up all the green turds in this NG"
and good old Roger promptly fulfilled the prophecy and led the
charge followed by Michael....ahahaha........AHAHAHAHAHA..:

and the folk here said that hanson could be reached with logic and=20
kindness.
The compost bin for him.
josh halpern
"And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of=20
the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the =
earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they=20
delivered." (Genesis 9:2)
"We might even go so far as to recognize a homesteading right to pollute =
or make noise in an area." - Gale Norton
Even if smog were a risk to human life, we must remember that life in=20
nature, without technology, is wholesale death. =96Ayn Rand
It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities=20
in our air and water that are doing it. =96 Dan Quayle
"Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do." Ronald Reagan
"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities=20
in our air and water that are doing it."...George W. Bush
"[It's] time for the human race to enter the solar system."...George W. B=
ush
"I have flown twice over Mt St. Helens out on our west coast. I'm not a=20
scientist and I don't know the figures, but I have a suspicion that that =
one little mountain has probably released more sulfur dioxide into the=20
atmosphere of the world than has been released in the last ten years of=20
automobile driving or things of that kind that people are so concerned=20
about." Ronald Reagan, 1980. (Actually, Mount St. Helens, at its peak=20
activity, emitted about 2,000 tons of sulfur dioxide per day, compared=20
with 81,000 tons per day by cars.)
"Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public=20
mind." =97 General William Westmoreland United States Army
"We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand" =
James Watt Secretary of the Interior

=20

.
User: "H. E. Taylor"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 31 Aug 2004 02:20:10 AM
In article <OWQYc.2800$OQ6.235@trnddc09>,
<j.halpern@incoming.verizon.net> Josh Halpern wrote:

[...]

and the folk here said that hanson could be reached with logic and
kindness.

The compost bin for him.

It seems to be about a 10 year old kid.

[...]

<l8r>
-het
--
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea --
massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and
a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."
--spaf@cs.purdue.edu (1992)
Global Warming: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/globalwarming.html
H.E. Taylor http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/
.
User: "hanson"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 31 Aug 2004 01:59:34 AM
"H. E. Taylor" <het@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> wrote in message
news:413426AA.469D@despam.autobahn.mb.ca...

In article <OWQYc.2800$OQ6.235@trnddc09>,
<j.halpern@incoming.verizon.net> Josh Halpern wrote:

[...]

and the folk here said that hanson could be reached
with logic and kindness.
The compost bin for him.


[H. E. Taylor]

It seems to be about a 10 year old kid.

[hanson]
Taylor, you are worse than Professor Halpern, you do not
even object to his threats....you are so far gone that you,
in your green murderous mania, would allow 10 year old kids
to compost in a bin?..........over a disagreement in a post
that you are not even the author of. Have you gone mad?
Look here, for your benefit and healing is my response to Josh:
hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote in message
news:AJSYc.3418$8d1.1773@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
ahahaha....."Josh Halpern" who called himself "Albern" (German
for talking *****) <j.halpern@incoming.verizon.net> lined up in
the queue labeled as green turds.......ahahahahaha...... with
his message news:OWQYc.2800$OQ6.235@trnddc09..., and
he did it after he, albern Halpern, read 3 posts of mine that
said:
.....ahahahahaha..., I surely called the shots when I said:
"Daffy, you are going to rile up all the green turds in this NG"
and good old Roger promptly fulfilled the prophecy and led the
charge, followed by Michael and then by Taylor" and now.
albern Halpern who could not contain himself, and even
followed his illogical act with threatening me explicitly:
[albern Halpern]

and the folk here said that hanson could be reached with
logic and kindness.
The compost bin for him. --- Josh halpern

[hanson]
ahahaha......AHAHAHAHAHA.....see how you are, albern Halpern?:
Misanthropic to the max! The moment someone does not agree
with your green Weltbild you call for **extermination**..... "the
dust bin for him". If you were important enough to me I would
check the archive whether you were one of those misanthropic
green shits, infesting these NG, who lined up to ***** on Daly's
grave, while his corpse was still warm....Were you one of them?
Daly was a great man... a man of keen substance,who didn't fall
victim to common green turdism, like you did, Josh Halpern.
For your benefit, Josh, here is that wonderful and true work from
Daly again: http://www.john-daly.com/zjiceco2.htm wherein it states:
"The basis of most of the IPCC conclusions on anthropogenic causes and
on projections of climatic change is the assumption of low level of CO2
in the pre-industrial atmosphere. This assumption, based on glaciological
studies, is false. Therefore IPCC projections should not be used for
national and global economic planning. The climatically inefficient and
economically disastrous Kydioto Protocol, based on IPCC projections, was
correctly defined by President George W. Bush as "fatally flawed".
This criticism was recently followed by the President of Russia Vlad Putin.
I hope that their rational views might save the world from enormous
damage that could be induced by implementing recommendations
based on distorted science."
Take this to heart, Josh, or at least shed your emerging murder
notions you have towards me, the living, and realize that these,
your aberrations, were born from your adherence to the instructions
in your green bible that has indoctrinated you with and instructed
you to promulgate that
:= "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
:= believe is true ... -- Paul Watson, Greenpeace, and ......
:= "A lot of environmental [political] messages are simply not
:= accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and...
:= "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little
:= mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest."
:= -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as
:= a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer)
Realize, Professor Halpern, that I do accept the world as I see it &
adapt accordingly, which includes your threats against my welfare.
Josh, when will YOU realize that the green turds are only after
relentlessly looting/sponging off the public treasury, using the
teachings of the green bible (above), full well knowing that
= The green movement was always & only a sick machination=
= & a cover to get $$$ grants, permit charges & user fees to =
= feed green shits, be they politicians, consultants, activists or=
= regulators. Environmentalism is just a despicable evil green=
= $$$$$$ game without any redeeming value, nor any intent =
= to save anything. This 40 year old scam is now threatened =
= which is why all those leeching green turds are whining =
Now, Taylor, are you, like Professor Josh Halpern, a member of
ELF, Earth First!, or some other violent extremist enviro group,
which is what you appear to have in common with now, after
having announced your collaboration to murder 10 year old
kids.......You want to end up on terrorist watchlists, too!
These are not normal times anymore. Heed my advice!
ahahahaha......ahahahahanson
.


User: "Ian St. John"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 30 Aug 2004 10:54:09 PM
Josh Halpern wrote:

hanson wrote:

.......ahahaha......., I surely called the shots, when I said:
"Daffy, you are going to rile up all the green turds in this NG"
and good old Roger promptly fulfilled the prophecy and led the
charge followed by Michael....ahahaha........AHAHAHAHAHA..:

and the folk here said that hanson could be reached with logic and
kindness.

Who said that??? How naive..


The compost bin for him.

Just don't read his posts. He has yet to say anything worth reading by a
four year old developmentally handicapped child (Which he greatly
resembles. )
.

User: "hanson"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 30 Aug 2004 11:00:32 PM
ahahaha....."Josh Halpern" who called himself "Albern" (German
for talking *****) <j.halpern@incoming.verizon.net> lined up in
the queue labeled as green turds.......ahahahahaha...... with
his message news:OWQYc.2800$OQ6.235@trnddc09..., and
he did it after he, albern Halpern, read 3 posts of mine that
said:
'....ahahahahaha..., I surely called the shots when I said:
"Daffy, you are going to rile up all the green turds in this NG"
and good old Roger promptly fulfilled the prophecy and led the
charge, followed by Michael and then by Taylor" and now.
albern Halpern who could not contain himself, and even
followed his illogical act with threatening me explicitly:
[albern Halpern]

and the folk here said that hanson could be reached with
logic and kindness.
The compost bin for him. --- Josh halpern

[hanson]
ahahaha......AHAHAHAHAHA.....see how you are, albern Halpern?:
Misanthropic to the max! The moment someone does not agree
with your green Weltbild you call for **extermination**..... "the
dust bin for him". If you were important enough to me I would
check the archive whether you were one of those misanthropic
green shits, infesting these NG, who lined up to ***** on Daly's
grave, while his corpse was still warm....Were you one of them?
Daly was a great man... a man of keen substance, Josh.
For your benefit, Josh, here is that wonderful and true work from
Daly again: http://www.john-daly.com/zjiceco2.htm wherein it states:
"The basis of most of the IPCC conclusions on anthropogenic causes and
on projections of climatic change is the assumption of low level of CO2
in the pre-industrial atmosphere. This assumption, based on glaciological
studies, is false. Therefore IPCC projections should not be used for
national and global economic planning. The climatically inefficient and
economically disastrous Kydioto Protocol, based on IPCC projections, was
correctly defined by President George W. Bush as "fatally flawed".
This criticism was recently followed by the President of Russia Vlad Putin.
I hope that their rational views might save the world from enormous
damage that could be induced by implementing recommendations
based on distorted science."
Take this to heart, Josh, or at least shed your emerging murder
notions you have towards me, the living, and realize that these,
your aberrations, were born from your adherence to the instructions
in your green bible that has indoctrinated you with and instructed
you to promulgate that
:= "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
:= believe is true ... -- Paul Watson, Greenpeace, and ......
:= "A lot of environmental [political] messages are simply not
:= accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and...
:= "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little
:= mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest."
:= -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as
:= a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer)
Realize, Professor Halpern, that I do accept the world as I see it &
adapt accordingly, which includes your threats against my welfare.
Josh, when will YOU realize that the green turds are only after
relentlessly looting/sponging off the public treasury, using the
teachings of the green bible (above), full well knowing that
= The green movement was always & only a sick machination=
= & a cover to get $$$ grants, permit charges & user fees to =
= feed green shits, be they politicians, consultants, activists or=
= regulators. Environmentalism is just a despicable evil green=
= $$$$$$ game without any redeeming value, nor any intent =
= to save anything. This 40 year old scam is now threatened =
= which is why all those leeching green turds are whining =
Professor Josh Halpern, are you a member of ELF, Earth First!,
or some other violent extremist enviro group, which is what you
appear to have in common with now, after having announced your
threats against me.......they are all on terrorist watchlists, you know!
ahahahaha......ahahahahanson
.
User: "Josh Halpern"

Title: Re: CO2 Measurement Problems 30 Aug 2004 11:08:59 PM
hanson wrote:
Whatever. I've added a few for your reading pleasure.
josh halpern
"And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of=20
the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the =
earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they=20
delivered." (Genesis 9:2)=20
=20
"We might even go so far as to recognize a homesteading right to pollute =
or make noise in an area." - Gale Norton
=20
Even if smog were a risk to human life, we must remember that life in=20
nature, without technology, is wholesale death. =96Ayn Rand
It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities=20
in our air and water that are doing it. =96 Dan Quayle
=20
"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities=20
in our air and water that are doing it."...George W. Bush
=20
"[It's] time for the human race to enter the solar system."...George W. B=
ush
=20
"Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do." Ronald Reagan
=20
"Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public=20
mind." =97 General William Westmoreland United States Army
=20
"We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at=20
hand" James Watt Secretary of the Interior=20
=20
It is precisely those things which belong to "the people" which have=20
historically been despoiled- wild creatures, the air, and waterways=20
being notable examples. This goes to the heart of why property rights=20
are socially important in the first place. Property rights mean=20
self-interested monitors. No owned creatures are in danger of=20
extinction. No owned forests are in danger of being leveled. No one=20
kills the goose that lays the golden egg when it is his goose.
- Thomas Sowell <http://www.freedomsnest.com/fn/sowtho.html>
=20
http://www.geocities.com/thereaganyears/reaganquotes.htm
=20
"A tree's a tree. How many more do you need to look at?"
--Ronald Reagan (Governor of California), quoted in the Sacramento Bee,=20
opposing expansion of Redwood National Park, March 3, 1966
=20
"I don't believe a tree is a tree and if you've seen one you've seen=20
them all."--Governor Ronald Reagan, in the Sacramento Bee, September 14, =
1966
=20
"All the waste in a year from a nuclear power plant can be stored under=20
a desk."--Ronald Reagan (Republican candidate for president), quoted in=20
the Burlington (Vermont) Free Press, February 15, 1980. (In reality,=20
the average nuclear reactor generates 30 tons of radioactive waste per=20
year.)
=20
"I have flown twice over Mount St. Helens. I'm not a scientist and I=20
don't know the figures, but I have a suspicion that one little mountain=20
out there, in these last several months, has probably released more=20
sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere than has been released in the last=20
ten years of automobile driving or things of that kind."
--Ronald Reagan, quoted in Time magazine, October 20, 1980. (According=20
to scientists, Mount St. Helens emitted about 2,000 tons of sulfur=20
dioxide per day at its peak activity, compared with 81,000 tons per day=20
produced by cars.)
=20
"Growing and decaying vegetation in this land are responsible for 93=20
percent of the oxides of nitrogen."
--Ronald Reagan, quoted in the Los Angeles Times, October 9, 1980. =20
(According to Dr. Michael Oppenheimer of the Environmental Defense Fund, =
industrial sources are responsible for at least 65 percent and possibly=20
as much as 90 percent of the oxides of nitrogen in the U.S.)
=20
"Appro