Politics > Politics-USA > Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions
| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"PM" |
| Date: |
25 Sep 2005 10:47:34 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
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AND... because that GULAG system has such a good Health care and Educ. =
services..the cubans try to escape by all means... ,of that fucking =
gulag ...isn*t that a very pathetic slimy propagande what you are =
trying to put forward in here ... you guys?
LOOK HOW THEY ESCAPE ...EVEN UNDER A HURRICANE WEATHER...!
Cubans rescued at sea being housed at Horizon Remand Centre
The group consists of two females in their 20s, and 13 males with ages =
ranging from 16 to 61.
Cubans rescued at sea being housed at Horizon Remand Centre
Observer Reporter
Friday, September 23, 2005
THE 15 Cubans who were rescued at sea by the Centennial II which was =
heading=20
for the Jamalco Bauxite Plant in Clarendon are being housed at the =
Horizon=20
Remand Centre in Kingston.
Both the Ministry of National Security and the Ministry of Health said=20
yesterday that they had completed their preliminary processing of the =
Cubans=20
at Rocky Point, Clarendon, where they disembarked.
"The information collected has been turned over to the Ministry of =
Foreign=20
Affairs and Foreign Trade so that contact can be established with the =
Cuban=20
Embassy in Jamaica for official verification of the nationality of the =
15=20
persons rescued," the Ministry of National Security said in a statement=20
yesterday.
The ministry said that a man, 61, who claimed to be the captain of the =
boat=20
the Cubans were travelling in, told immigration officials that they had=20
intended to sail to Miami when the boat developed difficulty with the =
huge=20
waves that tossed it around on the open seas before being rescued by=20
Centennial II.
"Since their arrival, they have been enquiring about relatives in Miami. =
None of the Cubans have asked for asylum in Jamaica," said the ministry=20
statement.
The group consists of two females in their 20s, and 13 males with ages=20
ranging from 16 to 61.
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20050923T000000-0500_88956_OBS_C=
UBANS_RESCUED_AT_SEA_BEING_HOUSED_AT_HORIZON_REMAND_CENTRE_.asp -=20
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.htm=
l
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
--=20
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.htm=
l
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
" "- Prof. Jonez=A9"" <jonez@norcom.ca> a =E9crit dans le message de =
news:pMnZe.23$kd4.2146@news.uswest.net...
krp - wrote:
" "- Prof. Jonez=A9"" <jonez@norcom.ca> wrote in message
news:OyZXe.24$oy.1190@news.uswest.net...
Tex wrote:
" "- Prof. Jonez=A9"" <jonez@norcom.ca> wrote in message
You've contradicted yourself, chimpy.
You're lying again you bannan crammin' shiteater.
Why do you hate the Cuban people and support the immoral U$ policies
that make them suffer, eh chimp?
You know Jonesey you are the UGLY CANADIAN.
Why do you lie, you criminal fascist scumbag?
Everything about you is
offensive as hell. You just an uncouth uneducated WIND BAG from the
frozen north.
You need to live a couple years IN Cuba, maybe your frozen brain
would thaw out by then. BUT I DOUBT IT!
Sez the fascist scumbag who supports the Cuban DGSE ... LOL!
Why do you hate the Cuban people so much, eh chimp?
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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>AND... because that GULAG =
system has such a=20
good Health care and Educ. services..the cubans =
try to=20
escape by all means... ,of that fucking gulag ...isn*t =
that=20
a very pathetic slimy propagande what you are =
trying=20
to put forward in here ... you guys?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D7><STRONG>LOOK HOW THEY =
ESCAPE ...EVEN=20
UNDER A HURRICANE WEATHER...!</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Cubans rescued at sea being =
housed at=20
Horizon Remand Centre</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>The group consists of two =
females in their=20
20s, and 13 males with ages ranging from 16 to 61.<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Cubans rescued at sea being =
housed at=20
Horizon Remand Centre<BR><BR>Observer Reporter<BR>Friday, September 23,=20
2005<BR><BR>THE 15 Cubans who were rescued at sea by the Centennial II =
which was=20
heading <BR>for the Jamalco Bauxite Plant in Clarendon are being housed =
at the=20
Horizon <BR>Remand Centre in Kingston.<BR>Both the Ministry of National =
Security=20
and the Ministry of Health said <BR>yesterday that they had completed =
their=20
preliminary processing of the Cubans <BR>at Rocky Point, Clarendon, =
where they=20
disembarked.<BR>"The information collected has been turned over to the =
Ministry=20
of Foreign <BR>Affairs and Foreign Trade so that contact can be =
established with=20
the Cuban <BR>Embassy in Jamaica for official verification of the =
nationality of=20
the 15 <BR>persons rescued," the Ministry of National Security said in a =
statement <BR>yesterday.<BR>The ministry said that a man, 61, who =
claimed to be=20
the captain of the boat <BR>the Cubans were travelling in, told =
immigration=20
officials that they had <BR>intended to sail to Miami when the boat =
developed=20
difficulty with the huge <BR>waves that tossed it around on the open =
seas before=20
being rescued by <BR>Centennial II.<BR>"Since their arrival, they have =
been=20
enquiring about relatives in Miami. <BR>None of the Cubans have asked =
for asylum=20
in Jamaica," said the ministry <BR>statement.<BR>The group consists of =
two=20
females in their 20s, and 13 males with ages <BR>ranging from 16 to=20
61.<BR><BR></FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20050923T000000-0500_889=
56_OBS_CUBANS_RESCUED_AT_SEA_BEING_HOUSED_AT_HORIZON_REMAND_CENTRE_.asp">=
<FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20050923T000000-0500_88=
956_OBS_CUBANS_RESCUED_AT_SEA_BEING_HOUSED_AT_HORIZON_REMAND_CENTRE_.asp<=
/FONT></A><FONT=20
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<DIV><BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>-- <BR></FONT><A=20
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href=3D"http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html"><FONT =
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<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>" "- Prof. Jonez=A9"" =
<</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:jonez@norcom.ca"><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>jonez@norcom.ca</FONT></A><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>> a =E9crit=20
dans le message de </FONT><A =
href=3D"news:pMnZe.23$kd4.2146@news.uswest.net"><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>news:pMnZe.23$kd4.2146@news.uswest.net</FONT></A><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>krp -=20
wrote:<BR>> " "- Prof. Jonez=A9"" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:jonez@norcom.ca"><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>jonez@norcom.ca</FONT></A><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>> wrote in=20
message<BR>> </FONT><A =
href=3D"news:OyZXe.24$oy.1190@news.uswest.net"><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>news:OyZXe.24$oy.1190@news.uswest.net</FONT></A><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>...<BR>> > Tex wrote:<BR>> > =
> " "-=20
Prof. Jonez=A9"" <</FONT><A href=3D"mailto:jonez@norcom.ca"><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>jonez@norcom.ca</FONT></A><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>> wrote in message<BR>> > ><BR>> > > =
You've=20
contradicted yourself, chimpy.<BR>> ><BR>> > You're lying =
again you=20
bannan crammin' shiteater.<BR>> ><BR>> > Why do you hate the =
Cuban=20
people and support the immoral U$ policies<BR>> > that make them =
suffer,=20
eh chimp?<BR>><BR>><BR>> You know Jonesey you are the UGLY=20
CANADIAN.<BR><BR>Why do you lie, you criminal fascist=20
scumbag?<BR><BR>>Everything about you is<BR>> offensive as hell. =
You just=20
an uncouth uneducated WIND BAG from the<BR>> frozen north.<BR>> =
You need=20
to live a couple years IN Cuba, maybe your frozen brain<BR>> would =
thaw out=20
by then. BUT I DOUBT IT!<BR><BR>Sez the fascist scumbag who supports the =
Cuban=20
DGSE ... LOL!<BR>Why do you hate the Cuban people so much, eh=20
chimp?<BR><BR><BR></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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| User: "PagCal" |
|
| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hardquestions |
26 Sep 2005 12:12:52 AM |
|
|
They've emegrated to a place with no universal health care system.
Or death rate of children is worse that of Cuba's.
PM wrote:
AND... because that GULAG system has such a good Health care and Educ. services..the cubans try to escape by all means... ,of that fucking gulag ...isn*t that a very pathetic slimy propagande what you are trying to put forward in here ... you guys?
LOOK HOW THEY ESCAPE ...EVEN UNDER A HURRICANE WEATHER...!
Cubans rescued at sea being housed at Horizon Remand Centre
The group consists of two females in their 20s, and 13 males with ages ranging from 16 to 61.
Cubans rescued at sea being housed at Horizon Remand Centre
Observer Reporter
Friday, September 23, 2005
THE 15 Cubans who were rescued at sea by the Centennial II which was heading
for the Jamalco Bauxite Plant in Clarendon are being housed at the Horizon
Remand Centre in Kingston.
Both the Ministry of National Security and the Ministry of Health said
yesterday that they had completed their preliminary processing of the Cubans
at Rocky Point, Clarendon, where they disembarked.
"The information collected has been turned over to the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs and Foreign Trade so that contact can be established with the Cuban
Embassy in Jamaica for official verification of the nationality of the 15
persons rescued," the Ministry of National Security said in a statement
yesterday.
The ministry said that a man, 61, who claimed to be the captain of the boat
the Cubans were travelling in, told immigration officials that they had
intended to sail to Miami when the boat developed difficulty with the huge
waves that tossed it around on the open seas before being rescued by
Centennial II.
"Since their arrival, they have been enquiring about relatives in Miami.
None of the Cubans have asked for asylum in Jamaica," said the ministry
statement.
The group consists of two females in their 20s, and 13 males with ages
ranging from 16 to 61.
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20050923T000000-0500_88956_OBS_CUBANS_RESCUED_AT_SEA_BEING_HOUSED_AT_HORIZON_REMAND_CENTRE_.asp -
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.html
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
26 Sep 2005 10:02:59 AM |
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|
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:nrLZe.9786$P7.5544@fe06.lga...
They've emegrated to a place with no universal health care system.
Maybe some people value freedom more, and figure that taking responsibility
for their own health care is a fair enough trade...
.
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| User: "Miguel OPastel" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
06 Oct 2005 06:08:37 PM |
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|
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:D4UZe.4015$0m6.330@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
:
:
: "PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
: news:nrLZe.9786$P7.5544@fe06.lga...
:
: > They've emegrated to a place with no universal health care system.
:
: Maybe some people value freedom more, and figure that taking
responsibility
: for their own health care is a fair enough trade...
:
:
:
Or some people believe the ***** about making big bucks in the US.
M
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| User: "PagCal" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hardquestions |
26 Sep 2005 07:18:15 PM |
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Stan de SD wrote:
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:nrLZe.9786$P7.5544@fe06.lga...
They've emegrated to a place with no universal health care system.
Maybe some people value freedom more, and figure that taking responsibility
for their own health care is a fair enough trade...
You do your own surgery?
Or say, someone else runs into you and breaks a bone - you splint it
yourself?
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
26 Sep 2005 07:26:03 PM |
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PagCal wrote:
Stan de SD wrote:
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:nrLZe.9786$P7.5544@fe06.lga...
They've emegrated to a place with no universal health care system.
Maybe some people value freedom more, and figure that taking responsibility
for their own health care is a fair enough trade...
You do your own surgery?
Or say, someone else runs into you and breaks a bone - you splint it
yourself?
I'd go to the doctor and pay him for surgery and/or leg splinting
myself. Why the hell should someone else pay for it?
.
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| User: "PagCal" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hardquestions |
26 Sep 2005 07:34:32 PM |
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|
wrote:
PagCal wrote:
Stan de SD wrote:
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:nrLZe.9786$P7.5544@fe06.lga...
They've emegrated to a place with no universal health care system.
Maybe some people value freedom more, and figure that taking responsibility
for their own health care is a fair enough trade...
You do your own surgery?
Or say, someone else runs into you and breaks a bone - you splint it
yourself?
I'd go to the doctor and pay him for surgery and/or leg splinting
myself. Why the hell should someone else pay for it?
Presuming that some doc would even see you. Most have closed practices,
and just don't do 'walkins' or in your case 'crawlins'.
Then, of course, there's the complications. Suppose you get an
infection, and you've got to stay an extra week. At 4,000 a day, that's
28,000 dollars.
Then, another complication - you blow a fat emboli and it lodges in your
lungs, so you're in another week, plus surgery to fix that problem, and
you are now up to 60,000$ easy.
Then, you need physical therapy, for another 10k.
As well, you loose work for 6 weeks getting over the thing, so your
business folds. Mortages are due, and you default, so now you loose the
house.
But, ah, you could just 'decide' to die - it would be cheeper.
But, you don't.
So, now you collect unemployment for 6 months.
But, when that runs out, you start eating 'Fancy Feast' cat food,
because it's cheep.
You do have some credit cards, which by now, you've charged to the hilt.
And with the new Republican 'reforms', you can't get into bankruptcy,
but the CC company now charges you late fees of 100/month and 35%
interest on the 60k you owe.
Still feel so sure fire cocky?
Ha, ha, ha!
.
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
26 Sep 2005 08:05:55 PM |
|
|
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
chrismcm66@hotmail.com wrote:
PagCal wrote:
Stan de SD wrote:
"PagCal" <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote in message
news:nrLZe.9786$P7.5544@fe06.lga...
They've emegrated to a place with no universal health care system.
Maybe some people value freedom more, and figure that taking responsibility
for their own health care is a fair enough trade...
You do your own surgery?
Or say, someone else runs into you and breaks a bone - you splint it
yourself?
I'd go to the doctor and pay him for surgery and/or leg splinting
myself. Why the hell should someone else pay for it?
Presuming that some doc would even see you. Most have closed practices,
and just don't do 'walkins' or in your case 'crawlins'.
Then, of course, there's the complications. Suppose you get an
infection, and you've got to stay an extra week. At 4,000 a day, that's
28,000 dollars.
Then, another complication - you blow a fat emboli and it lodges in your
lungs, so you're in another week, plus surgery to fix that problem, and
you are now up to 60,000$ easy.
Then, you need physical therapy, for another 10k.
As well, you loose work for 6 weeks getting over the thing, so your
business folds. Mortages are due, and you default, so now you loose the
house.
But, ah, you could just 'decide' to die - it would be cheeper.
But, you don't.
So, now you collect unemployment for 6 months.
But, when that runs out, you start eating 'Fancy Feast' cat food,
because it's cheep.
You do have some credit cards, which by now, you've charged to the hilt.
And with the new Republican 'reforms', you can't get into bankruptcy,
but the CC company now charges you late fees of 100/month and 35%
interest on the 60k you owe.
Still feel so sure fire cocky?
Ha, ha, ha!
Ever hear of "INSURANCE"?
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
27 Sep 2005 12:43:35 PM |
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PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Ever hear of "INSURANCE"?
Yep, and BTW, it's a socialist or even communist concept - specifically,
it's motto could be everyone by their means and everyone for their need.
Not all forms of collectivization are the same.
Socialism and communism are compulsory.
Health insurance is voluntary, with competition among insurers.
You might as well compare slavery and employment.
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| User: "PagCal" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hardquestions |
27 Sep 2005 12:56:40 PM |
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Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Ever hear of "INSURANCE"?
Yep, and BTW, it's a socialist or even communist concept - specifically,
it's motto could be everyone by their means and everyone for their need.
Not all forms of collectivization are the same.
Socialism and communism are compulsory.
Health insurance is voluntary, with competition among insurers.
Competition? Not around here.
They do things like 'cherry pick' so they can 'make money' for their
stockholders.
There are now 48 million Americans that can't get coverage for one
reason or another.
Additionally, we spend 2x other countries on health care, and we don't
even get full coverage. Our death rate among kids is 20'th among
nations, etc.
So, don't tell me that Adam Smith's invisible hand is 'solving' the
problem, because it isn't.
As for it being compulsory, I don't mind if they add a clause that lets
folks 'opt out' of the plan if they want. My guess is most people won't,
because they know the value of it.
You might as well compare slavery and employment.
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
27 Sep 2005 04:00:04 PM |
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PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Ever hear of "INSURANCE"?
Yep, and BTW, it's a socialist or even communist concept - specifically,
it's motto could be everyone by their means and everyone for their need.
Not all forms of collectivization are the same.
Socialism and communism are compulsory.
Health insurance is voluntary, with competition among insurers.
Competition? Not around here.
They do things like 'cherry pick' so they can 'make money' for their
stockholders.
There are now 48 million Americans that can't get coverage for one
reason or another.
Bull. You confuse morons who spend their money on the wrong things
with "can't".
Additionally, we spend 2x other countries on health care...
And we have the best in the world. I might spend double the amount
you do for a car, but that doesn't make my Mercedes a bad deal, or
justify forcing me into a Yugo.
, and we don't
even get full coverage.
You get what coverage you choose to buy.
Our death rate among kids is 20'th among
nations, etc.
So?
So, don't tell me that Adam Smith's invisible hand is 'solving' the
problem, because it isn't.
The only problem is trial lawyers driving up costs, and the leftist
politicians who shill for them.
As for it being compulsory, I don't mind if they add a clause that lets
folks 'opt out' of the plan if they want. My guess is most people won't,
because they know the value of it.
As long as I can opt out of the premiums, fine. Good luck with THAT!
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| User: "PagCal" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hardquestions |
27 Sep 2005 05:30:14 PM |
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Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Ever hear of "INSURANCE"?
Yep, and BTW, it's a socialist or even communist concept - specifically,
it's motto could be everyone by their means and everyone for their need.
Not all forms of collectivization are the same.
Socialism and communism are compulsory.
Health insurance is voluntary, with competition among insurers.
Competition? Not around here.
They do things like 'cherry pick' so they can 'make money' for their
stockholders.
There are now 48 million Americans that can't get coverage for one
reason or another.
Bull. You confuse morons who spend their money on the wrong things
with "can't".
Additionally, we spend 2x other countries on health care...
And we have the best in the world. I might spend double the amount
you do for a car, but that doesn't make my Mercedes a bad deal, or
justify forcing me into a Yugo.
We don't have the best in the world - we come in 20'th or so in overall
care to our citizens.
, and we don't
even get full coverage.
You get what coverage you choose to buy.
Our death rate among kids is 20'th among
nations, etc.
So?
So, don't tell me that Adam Smith's invisible hand is 'solving' the
problem, because it isn't.
The only problem is trial lawyers driving up costs, and the leftist
politicians who shill for them.
As for it being compulsory, I don't mind if they add a clause that lets
folks 'opt out' of the plan if they want. My guess is most people won't,
because they know the value of it.
As long as I can opt out of the premiums, fine. Good luck with THAT!
You can go live in the woods and eat tree bark.
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
28 Sep 2005 12:08:46 PM |
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PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Ever hear of "INSURANCE"?
Yep, and BTW, it's a socialist or even communist concept - specifically,
it's motto could be everyone by their means and everyone for their need.
Not all forms of collectivization are the same.
Socialism and communism are compulsory.
Health insurance is voluntary, with competition among insurers.
Competition? Not around here.
They do things like 'cherry pick' so they can 'make money' for their
stockholders.
There are now 48 million Americans that can't get coverage for one
reason or another.
Bull. You confuse morons who spend their money on the wrong things
with "can't".
Additionally, we spend 2x other countries on health care...
And we have the best in the world. I might spend double the amount
you do for a car, but that doesn't make my Mercedes a bad deal, or
justify forcing me into a Yugo.
We don't have the best in the world - we come in 20'th or so in overall
care to our citizens.
So why do people of all nations who can afford it come here?
I think you confuse the quality of the available care with the fact
that many free people here don't choose to take care of themselves.
At this point, you might provide some evidence of the basis of your
"20th" claim.
As long as I can opt out of the premiums, fine. Good luck with THAT!
You can go live in the woods and eat tree bark.
What does making this a voluntary option have to do with living like a
savage?
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| User: "PagCal" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hardquestions |
29 Sep 2005 03:55:39 AM |
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Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Ever hear of "INSURANCE"?
Yep, and BTW, it's a socialist or even communist concept - specifically,
it's motto could be everyone by their means and everyone for their need.
Not all forms of collectivization are the same.
Socialism and communism are compulsory.
Health insurance is voluntary, with competition among insurers.
Competition? Not around here.
They do things like 'cherry pick' so they can 'make money' for their
stockholders.
There are now 48 million Americans that can't get coverage for one
reason or another.
Bull. You confuse morons who spend their money on the wrong things
with "can't".
Additionally, we spend 2x other countries on health care...
And we have the best in the world. I might spend double the amount
you do for a car, but that doesn't make my Mercedes a bad deal, or
justify forcing me into a Yugo.
We don't have the best in the world - we come in 20'th or so in overall
care to our citizens.
So why do people of all nations who can afford it come here?
I think you confuse the quality of the available care with the fact
that many free people here don't choose to take care of themselves.
At this point, you might provide some evidence of the basis of your
"20th" claim.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm
Myth: The U.S. has the best health care system in the world.
Fact: The U.S. has among the worst health statistics of all rich nations.
Summary
The U.S. does not have the best health care system in the world - it has
the best emergency care system in the world. Advanced U.S. medical
technology has not translated into better health statistics for its
citizens; indeed, the U.S. ranks near the bottom in list after list of
international comparisons. Part of the problem is that there is more
profit in a pound of cure than an ounce of prevention. Another part of
the problem is that America has the highest level of poverty and income
inequality among all rich nations, and poverty affects one's health much
more than the limited ministrations of a formal health care system.
Argument
Let's review the health care statistics first, and analyze them
afterwards. All statistics here are for the year 1991; they have
generally become worse for the U.S. since then.
Health Care Expenditures (percent of GDP) (1)
United States 13.4%
Canada 10.0
Finland 9.1
Sweden 8.6
Germany 8.4
Netherlands 8.4
Norway 7.6
Japan 6.8
United Kingdom 6.6
Denmark 6.5
Doctors' incomes: (2)
United States $132,300
Germany 91,244
Denmark 50,585
Finland 42,943
Norway 35,356
Sweden 25,768
Percent of population covered by public health care:
ALL NATIONS (except below) 100%
France, Austria 99
Switzerland, Spain, Belgium 98
Germany 92
Netherlands 77
United States 40
Average paid maternity leave (as of 1991; this changed with Clinton's
signing of the 1993 Family and Medical Leave Act):
Sweden 32 weeks
France 28
United Kingdom 18
Norway 18
Denmark 18
Japan 14
Germany 14
Netherlands 12
United States 0
Life Expectancy (years):
Men Women
Japan 76.2 82.5
France 72.9 81.3
Switzerland 74.1 81.3
Netherlands 73.7 80.5
Sweden 74.2 80.4
Canada 73.4 80.3
Norway 73.1 79.7
Germany 72.6 79.2
Finland 70.7 78.8
United States 71.6 78.6
United Kingdom 72.7 78.2
Denmark 72.2 77.9
Infant Mortality Rate (per 1,000 live births):
United States 10.4
United Kingdom 9.4
Germany 8.5
Denmark 8.1
Canada 7.9
Norway 7.9
Netherlands 7.8
Switzerland 6.8
Finland 5.9
Sweden 5.9
Japan 5.0
Death rate of 1-to-4 year olds (per community of 200,000 per year):
United States 101.5
Japan 92.2
Norway 90.2
Denmark 85.1
France 84.9
United Kingdom 82.2
Canada 82.1
Netherlands 80.3
Germany 77.6
Switzerland 72.5
Sweden 64.7
Finland 53.3
Death rate of 15-to-24 year olds (per community of 200,000 per year):
United States 203
Switzerland 175
Canada 161
France 156
Finland 154
Norway 128
Germany 122
Denmark 120
United Kingdom 114
Sweden 109
Japan 96
Netherlands 90
Note: the murder rate for the above age group is 48.8 per 200,000. Even
subtracting this entirely still puts the U.S. near the top of the list.
Premature Death (years of life lost before the age of 64 per 100 people):
United States 5.8 years
Denmark 4.9
Finland 4.8
Canada 4.5
Germany 4.5
United Kingdom 4.4
Norway 4.3
Switzerland 4.1
Netherlands 4.0
Sweden 3.8
Japan 3.3
Percent of people with normal body mass:
Men Women
Germany 53% 37
Finland 51 37
United Kingdom 46 38
Canada 52 29
Switzerland 49 30
France 44 30
Denmark 44 25
United States 47 22
Sweden 44 25
Percent of people who believe their health care system needs fundamental
change:
United States 60%
Sweden 58
United Kingdom 52
Japan 47
Netherlands 46
France 42
Canada 38
An explanation of America's poor health care statistics
Sharp readers will notice that the last chart may mean different things
to different people. Conservatives think the U.S. health care system
needs reform because there is too much government involvement in health
care; liberals because there is not enough.
So let's clarify this statistic with a few others. Americans are the
most dissatisfied with the quality and quantity of their health care. Of
the 10 largest industrialized nations, the U.S. ranked dead last in
health care satisfaction, with an approval rating of only 11 percent.
(3) There's no putting a positive spin on this statistic; any president
with such a low approval rating would be impeached!
Most of this dissatisfaction stems from the high expense and
unavailability of U.S. health care. During the 1993 debate on health
care reform, polls consistently showed that two-thirds of all Americans
supported the idea of universal coverage. (4) Polls also showed that
Americans didn't want to pay the higher taxes to achieve this goal,
which many pundits took to be an amusing example of public
inconsistency. Actually, the public was entirely consistent. Other
nations manage to cover everybody, and at lower cost.
Nor is America's international reputation in health care as high as many
Americans boast it to be. "Ask anyone you know from a foreign country...
which country is the envy of the world when it comes to health care,"
Rush Limbaugh wrote in See, I Told You So. But according to a Gallup
poll published by the Toronto Star, only 2 percent of all Canadians
believe that the U.S. has a better health care system than their own. (5)
The fact is that America does not have the finest health care system in
the world; it has the finest emergency care system in the world. Highly
trained American doctors can summon Star Wars-type technology in saving
patients who have become seriously injured or critically ill. But as far
as preventative medicine goes, the U.S. is still in the Stone Age. It
should be no surprise that in America's health care business,
entrepreneurs will take a pound of cure over an ounce of prevention
every time.
But in reality, what affects the health of Americans lies more outside
the formal health care system than within it. In Europe during the last
century, life expectancy nearly doubled after nations purified their
drinking water and created sanitation systems. In America during this
century, the highest cancer rates are found in neighborhoods around the
chemical industry. (6) A healthy diet and exercise provide better health
than most medicines in most circumstances. Other nations have realized
that factors outside the hospital are more important than factors inside
it, and have used this bit of wisdom to lower their health care costs.
Perhaps the greatest reason why Europeans are healthier than Americans
is because they have reduced poverty, especially child poverty. The link
between poverty and poorer health has long been proven. One survey
reviewed more than 30 other studies on the relationship between class
and health, and found that "class influences one's chances of staying
alive. Almost without exception, the evidence shows that classes differ
on mortality rates." (7) The American Journal of Epidemiology states
that "a vast body of evidence has shown consistently that those in the
lower classes have higher mortality, morbidity and disability rates" and
these "are in part due to inadequate medical care services as well as to
the impact of a toxic and hazardous physical environment." (8)
And in an even more important finding, studies from Harvard and Berkeley
have proven that income inequality -- not just absolute poverty -- is
equally important. (9) States with the highest levels of income
inequality also have the highest mortality and morbidity rates. The
reason why relative poverty matters is because prices and opportunities
are relative too - the U.S. may have the best medical technology in the
world, but at $10,000 a procedure, who can afford it?
Many reasons contribute to the worse health of the poor. Political
scientist Jeffrey Reiman writes: "Less money means less nutritious food,
less heat in winter, less fresh air in summer, less distance from sick
people, less knowledge about illness or medicine, fewer doctor visits,
fewer dental visits, less preventative care, and above all else, less
first-quality medical attention when all these other deprivations take
their toll and a poor person finds himself seriously ill." (10) And this
is not to mention that the poor work and live in more polluted,
hazardous and strenuous environments.
These deprivations are especially hard on infants in their critical
development years. The U.S. has tried to combat this problem by offering
universal prenatal and postnatal health care, much like Europe does. But
the U.S. is fighting against a head wind because it has levels of
poverty that Europe does not. Again, a person's health is affected by
more factors outside the formal health care system than within it. It's
not enough to give a few programs to a person in poverty; what's needed
is removing that person from poverty completely.
"When I look back on my years in office," says C. Everett Koop, Reagan's
former Surgeon General, "the things I banged my head against were all
poverty." (11)
If America is to improve its health statistics, it must not only pass
universal health care, but reduce poverty as well.
Return to Overview
Endnotes:
1. Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, Paris, France,
OECD Health Data, 1993; OECD Health Systems: Facts and Trends, 1993.
2. Remaining statistic charts listed in Where We Stand, by Michael
Wolff, Peter Rutten, Albert Bayers III, and the World Rank Research Team
(New York: Bantam Books, 1992)
3. Health Affairs, vol. 9, no. 2, cited by Steven Randall, Jim Naureckas
and Jeff Cohen in The Way Things Aren't: Rush Limbaugh's Reign of Error
(New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 1995), p. 65.
4. Jeff Cohen and Norman Solomon, Through the Media Looking Glass:
Decoding Bias and Blather in the News (Monroe: Common Courage Press,
1995), p. 81.
5. The Way Things Aren't, p. 66.
6. This was the finding of a county-by-county national survey conducted
by the National Cancer Institute in 1975. Cited in "N.J.'s Chemical Belt
Takes Its Toll: $4 Billion Industry Tied to Nation's Highest Cancer
Rate," Washington Post, February 8, 1976, p. A1.
7. Aaron Antonovsky, "Class and a Chance for Life," in Inequality and
Justice, Lee Rainwater, ed., (Chicago: Aldine Publishing Company, 1974),
p. 177.
8. S. Leonard Syme and Lisa Berkman, "Social Class, Susceptibility and
Sickness," American Journal of Epidemiology 104, no. 1 (July 1976), pp. 1,4.
9. Berkeley study: George A. Kaplan and others, "Inequality in income
and mortality in the United States: analysis of mortality and potential
pathways," British Medical Journal, Vol. 312 (April 20, 1996), pp.
999-1003. Harvard study: Bruce P. Kennedy and others, "Income
distribution and mortality: cross sectional ecological study of the
Robin Hood index in the United States," British Medical Journal, Vol.
312 (April 20, 1996), pp. 1004-1007.
10. Jeffrey Reiman, The Rich Get Richer And the Poor Get Prison (New
York: MacMillan Publishing Company, 1990), p. 75.
11. Quoted in Stephanie Coontz, The Way We Never Were: American Families
and the Nostalgia Trap (New York: HarperCollins, 1992), p. 270.
As long as I can opt out of the premiums, fine. Good luck with THAT!
You can go live in the woods and eat tree bark.
What does making this a voluntary option have to do with living like a
savage?
The old Paul Bunion idea that it's just one guy, and his faithful ox in
America - that it's I and not We.
.
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
27 Sep 2005 12:44:58 PM |
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PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Having a government sponsored 'insurance' plan would work the same as it
does in private industry, except, instead of taking 25% as the private
industry does off the top, the government would only take 1.5%.
Even if I believed that this would be the first thing government did
more efficiently than the private sector, you would have to explain
how having only ONE option is preferable to having multiple options,
with incentives to compete and innovate.
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| User: "PagCal" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hardquestions |
27 Sep 2005 12:59:55 PM |
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Medicare/Medicaid runs at 1.5% today.
Private industry runs at 25%.
Just go look at the numbers.
One option? No.
I would think the government would offer a base level, bare bones plan,
and it would be up to private industry to provide add-ons - like they do
today with medi-gap and so on.
For example, you wouldn't get Viagra under the government plan, so your
employer could offer a med-gap plan to cover prescriptions.
Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Having a government sponsored 'insurance' plan would work the same as it
does in private industry, except, instead of taking 25% as the private
industry does off the top, the government would only take 1.5%.
Even if I believed that this would be the first thing government did
more efficiently than the private sector, you would have to explain
how having only ONE option is preferable to having multiple options,
with incentives to compete and innovate.
.
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
27 Sep 2005 04:00:31 PM |
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PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Medicare/Medicaid runs at 1.5% today.
Private industry runs at 25%.
Just go look at the numbers.
Where?
One option? No.
I would think the government would offer a base level, bare bones plan,
and it would be up to private industry to provide add-ons - like they do
today with medi-gap and so on.
For example, you wouldn't get Viagra under the government plan, so your
employer could offer a med-gap plan to cover prescriptions.
Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Having a government sponsored 'insurance' plan would work the same as it
does in private industry, except, instead of taking 25% as the private
industry does off the top, the government would only take 1.5%.
Even if I believed that this would be the first thing government did
more efficiently than the private sector, you would have to explain
how having only ONE option is preferable to having multiple options,
with incentives to compete and innovate.
.
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| User: "PagCal" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hardquestions |
27 Sep 2005 05:31:07 PM |
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Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Medicare/Medicaid runs at 1.5% today.
Private industry runs at 25%.
Just go look at the numbers.
Where?
start with google.
One option? No.
I would think the government would offer a base level, bare bones plan,
and it would be up to private industry to provide add-ons - like they do
today with medi-gap and so on.
For example, you wouldn't get Viagra under the government plan, so your
employer could offer a med-gap plan to cover prescriptions.
Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Having a government sponsored 'insurance' plan would work the same as it
does in private industry, except, instead of taking 25% as the private
industry does off the top, the government would only take 1.5%.
Even if I believed that this would be the first thing government did
more efficiently than the private sector, you would have to explain
how having only ONE option is preferable to having multiple options,
with incentives to compete and innovate.
.
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
28 Sep 2005 12:09:50 PM |
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PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Medicare/Medicaid runs at 1.5% today.
Private industry runs at 25%.
Just go look at the numbers.
Where?
start with google.
Your silly claim. You provide the support.
(I could reply, "Google had no evidence to support your claim, so you
must be a liar", and then you'd be in the same position.)
.
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| User: "PagCal" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hardquestions |
29 Sep 2005 03:58:06 AM |
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I don't really have time to show you how to use google, but here's just
one page on the topic ( out of thousands reported found )
Study shows overhead costs make US health care more expensive
[November 20, 2003 12:00 AM] A new study in the Archives of Internal
Medicine has found that a common surgical procedure costs more in
private US hospitals than in public Canadian ones. They conclude that
this higher cost can be explained by more expensive and bureaucratic
administration, billing and support services.
Researchers compared the cost of conducting a specific medical procedure
in private for-profit American hospitals, to the cost of the exact same
procedure being performed in Canadian public hospitals.
‘AAA repair’ refers to open abdominal aortic aneurysm repair, a common
and expensive surgical procedure. AAA is the cause of thousands of
deaths every year in both countries. AAA repair operations are a major
expense on both health systems.
After looking at a variety of direct and indirect (or overhead) costs
researchers conclude: “The cost of AAA repair is substantially higher in
the United States compared with Canada, despite shorter lengths of stay
and similar clinical outcomes.”
Total cost of treatment for American patients undergoing AAA repair was
55 per cent higher than the total costs associated with each Canadian
patient undergoing the same procedure. Canadian costs were lower than
American ones in all categories, but the difference was most dramatic in
the area of what were called indirect or “overhead costs” in the study.
“Overhead costs” refer to facility management, administration and
support services.
The researchers say Canada’s universal insurance system, which reduces
administrative costs, probably explains the huge difference. The
American system is more expensive due in part to a multi-payer system,
since direct patient billing and other billing procedures contribute to
greater overhead costs. This is consistent with findings of earlier
studies showing that the US health care system is much more bureaucratic
and costly than Canada’s public Medicare system.
The study used a sample of 1057 sets of records from a variety of
hospital data sources for patients who had AAA repair surgery done. Five
hundred and fifty-two (552) of them were treated in Canada.
Reprinted from the Archives of Internal Medicine, Med/Vol. 163, Nov. 10,
2003. American Medical Association, 2003.
Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Sammy's Bistro wrote:
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
Medicare/Medicaid runs at 1.5% today.
Private industry runs at 25%.
Just go look at the numbers.
Where?
start with google.
Your silly claim. You provide the support.
(I could reply, "Google had no evidence to support your claim, so you
must be a liar", and then you'd be in the same position.)
.
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
29 Sep 2005 11:01:49 AM |
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PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
A new study in the Archives of Internal
Medicine has found that a common surgical procedure costs more in
private US hospitals than in public Canadian ones.
Of course, some Canadians are forced to come South for their surgery
because of the shortages inevitably caused by price controls. It's
better to pay out of pocket than to wait until after you are already
dead.
Just like Soviet food lines, except that people are dying for lack of
medical care in Socialist health systems.
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| User: "Curt" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
29 Sep 2005 02:53:06 PM |
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"Sammy's Bistro" <harmony992@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:rs3oj15052lqam6568ob27tve25a2ngv81@4ax.com...
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
A new study in the Archives of Internal
Medicine has found that a common surgical procedure costs more in
private US hospitals than in public Canadian ones.
Of course, some Canadians are forced to come South for their surgery
because of the shortages inevitably caused by price controls. It's
better to pay out of pocket than to wait until after you are already
dead.
Just like Soviet food lines, except that people are dying for lack of
medical care in Socialist health systems.
I've heard of that. But I've never actually met a Canadian who had to come
south for surgery. I think you may be falling for a ruse here.
I do know, however, that five years ago I went to Canada for some elective
surgery. It cost me half as much and I didn't have to wait at all.
Curt
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
29 Sep 2005 04:33:40 PM |
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"Curt" <cje@hevanet.com> wrote:
"Sammy's Bistro" <harmony992@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:rs3oj15052lqam6568ob27tve25a2ngv81@4ax.com...
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
A new study in the Archives of Internal
Medicine has found that a common surgical procedure costs more in
private US hospitals than in public Canadian ones.
Of course, some Canadians are forced to come South for their surgery
because of the shortages inevitably caused by price controls. It's
better to pay out of pocket than to wait until after you are already
dead.
Just like Soviet food lines, except that people are dying for lack of
medical care in Socialist health systems.
I've heard of that. But I've never actually met a Canadian who had to come
south for surgery. I think you may be falling for a ruse here.
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15524
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/10/14/BUGR28JFEN59.DTL
The Canadian media itself reports on fed-up doctors coming to the U.S.
Note this headline in the London [Ontario] Free Press on June 28,
1994: "Cutbacks, Frustration, Pushing Doctors to U.S." The article
states: "Frustrated by restrictions, cutbacks, and loss of respect,
the number of doctors actively seeking work south of the border is on
the rise -- and Americans are embracing them with open arms. I have
never heard of as many doctors who have their names with recruiting
agencies, or who have gone to the States to look around as I have for
the past six months,' says [a member] of the London District Academy
of Medicine, who has practiced in that city for 23 years." The article
also stated, "In the U.S., which traditionally attracted Canadian
specialists, the biggest demand now is for family physicians, says Jim
Merritt, president of the Irving, Texas, based Merritt, Hawkins and
Associates, one of the largest American physician recruitment firms."
I do know, however, that five years ago I went to Canada for some elective
surgery. It cost me half as much and I didn't have to wait at all.
You enjoyed the subsidies of their system. Also, if they screwed up,
good luck recovering for your damages. (Of course one reason ours is
more expensive is all those trial lawyers who have bought Democrat
politicians.)
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| User: "Curt" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
29 Sep 2005 06:49:33 PM |
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"Sammy's Bistro" <harmony992@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:d1noj1t0ept5k2dpuvh6bl9la80plchahp@4ax.com...
"Curt" <cje@hevanet.com> wrote:
"Sammy's Bistro" <harmony992@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:rs3oj15052lqam6568ob27tve25a2ngv81@4ax.com...
PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com> wrote:
A new study in the Archives of Internal
Medicine has found that a common surgical procedure costs more in
private US hospitals than in public Canadian ones.
Of course, some Canadians are forced to come South for their surgery
because of the shortages inevitably caused by price controls. It's
better to pay out of pocket than to wait until after you are already
dead.
Just like Soviet food lines, except that people are dying for lack of
medical care in Socialist health systems.
I've heard of that. But I've never actually met a Canadian who had to
come
south for surgery. I think you may be falling for a ruse here.
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15524
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/10/14/BUGR28JFEN59.DTL
The Canadian media itself reports on fed-up doctors coming to the U.S.
Note this headline in the London [Ontario] Free Press on June 28,
1994: "Cutbacks, Frustration, Pushing Doctors to U.S." The article
states: "Frustrated by restrictions, cutbacks, and loss of respect,
the number of doctors actively seeking work south of the border is on
the rise -- and Americans are embracing them with open arms. I have
never heard of as many doctors who have their names with recruiting
agencies, or who have gone to the States to look around as I have for
the past six months,' says [a member] of the London District Academy
of Medicine, who has practiced in that city for 23 years." The article
also stated, "In the U.S., which traditionally attracted Canadian
specialists, the biggest demand now is for family physicians, says Jim
Merritt, president of the Irving, Texas, based Merritt, Hawkins and
Associates, one of the largest American physician recruitment firms."
Uh, but you were talking about Canadians coming here for surgeries. Not
doctors coming here for better jobs.
I do know, however, that five years ago I went to Canada for some
elective
surgery. It cost me half as much and I didn't have to wait at all.
You enjoyed the subsidies of their system.
What I enjoyed was their different system of regulations. The Canadian
government decided it would be illegal for the manufacturer of the machine
that got used on me to charge the docs a fee every time they used the
machine. That's far and away the largest savings I realized- I didn't get
hit up for a kickback. That's the kind of "subsidy" I wish we had some of
here in the good old USA.
Also, if they screwed up, good luck recovering for your damages.
(Of course one reason ours is
more expensive is all those trial lawyers who have bought Democrat
politicians.)
Yaaaaawn. Yeah, it's the solid Republican mindset of the average Canadian
that keeps their medical costs down. Right.
Curt
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
30 Sep 2005 11:47:34 AM |
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"Curt" <cje@hevanet.com> wrote:
Uh, but you were talking about Canadians coming here for surgeries. Not
doctors coming here for better jobs.
You forgot to click the links.
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15524
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/10/14/BUGR28JFEN59.DTL
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| User: "Curt" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
30 Sep 2005 04:01:50 PM |
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"Sammy's Bistro" <harmony992@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:40rqj1p8rj2v7f4sodu7t2htk9cn32145b@4ax.com...
"Curt" <cje@hevanet.com> wrote:
Uh, but you were talking about Canadians coming here for surgeries. Not
doctors coming here for better jobs.
You forgot to click the links.
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15524
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/10/14/BUGR28JFEN59.DTL
I never click links. I just read what you posted. It was about doctors
coming here.
Curt
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
30 Sep 2005 04:15:02 PM |
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"Curt" <cje@hevanet.com> wrote:
"Sammy's Bistro" <harmony992@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:40rqj1p8rj2v7f4sodu7t2htk9cn32145b@4ax.com...
"Curt" <cje@hevanet.com> wrote:
Uh, but you were talking about Canadians coming here for surgeries. Not
doctors coming here for better jobs.
You forgot to click the links.
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15524
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/10/14/BUGR28JFEN59.DTL
I never click links.
Here's more:
The fact is, though, that Canada's system is riddled with problems,
many stemming from inadequate funding. As a result, delays of several
months are common before seeing a specialist or getting nonemergency
surgery.
For his part, Kioussis said the month he waited between seeing his
family doctor and his surgery did not seem unreasonable. He admitted,
though, that because of a personal connection between his brother and
the surgeon, the doctor operated on him just before he left for
vacation.
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
30 Sep 2005 04:13:48 PM |
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"Curt" <cje@hevanet.com> wrote:
"Sammy's Bistro" <harmony992@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:40rqj1p8rj2v7f4sodu7t2htk9cn32145b@4ax.com...
"Curt" <cje@hevanet.com> wrote:
Uh, but you were talking about Canadians coming here for surgeries. Not
doctors coming here for better jobs.
You forgot to click the links.
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15524
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/10/14/BUGR28JFEN59.DTL
I never click links.
Here:
Canada's Medical Nightmare
Written By: Robert J. Cihak, M.D.
Published In: Health Care News
Publication Date: September 1, 2004
Publisher: The Heartland Institute
For decades, Canadians have cast pitying glances at us poor American
neighbors who actually have to pay for our medical care while they get
theirs for "free."
Yet the major candidates in Canada's recent national election both
agreed the country's health care system is failing. They made the
usual socialist diagnosis of "not enough money." None of the
candidates mentioned government control as what ails the Canadian
system.
On this side of the border, Senator Edward Kennedy (D-Massachusetts),
with presidential candidate Senator John Kerry, also from
Massachusetts, in tow, promotes Canadian health care to U.S. voters,
in the hope we too can have "free" medical care.
High Costs, Low Quality
A July 2004 study by the Vancouver-based Fraser Institute, Paying,
More, Getting Less, concluded that after years of government control,
the Canadian medical system is badly injured and bleeding citizens'
hard-earned tax dollars. The institute compared health care systems in
the industrialized countries in the Organization for Economic
Cooperation and Development (OECD) and found Canada currently spends
the most, yet ranks among the lowest on such indicators as access to
physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes.
One of the major reasons for this discrepancy is that, unlike the
countries in the study that outperformed Canada--Sweden, Japan,
Australia, and France, for example--Canada outlaws most private health
care.
If the Canadian government says it provides a particular medical
service, it is illegal for a Canadian citizen to pay for and obtain
that service privately. At the same time, the Canadian government
bureaucracy rations medical services. According to another Fraser
Institute survey, Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada
(13th edition, October 2003), a Canadian health care patient, on
average, must wait 17.7 weeks for hospital treatment. Those who live
in Saskatchewan waited an average of 30 weeks, those in Ontario a
relatively expeditious 14 weeks.
Dying in Queues
In 1999, Dr. Richard F. Davies, a cardiologist at the University of
Ottawa Heart Institute and professor of medicine at the University of
Ottawa, described in remarks for the Canadian Institute for Health
Information how delays affected Ontario heart patients scheduled for
coronary artery bypass graft surgery. In a single year, for this one
operation, the doctor said, "71 Ontario patients died before surgery,
121 were removed from the list permanently because they had become
medically unfit for surgery," and 44 left the province to have the
surgery, many having gone to the United States for the operation.
(According to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, 33
Canadian hospitals performed approximately 22,500 bypass surgeries in
1998-99.)
In other words, 192 people either died or became too sick to have
surgery before they could work their way to the front of the line.
In a May/June 2004 article in the journal Health Affairs, researcher
Robert Blendon and colleagues described the results of a survey of
hospital administrators in Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, the
United States, and Canada. Fifty percent of the Canadian hospital
administrators said the average waiting time for a 65-year-old man
requiring a routine hip replacement was more than six months. Not one
American hospital administrator reported waiting periods that long.
Eighty-six percent of American hospital administrators said the
average waiting time was shorter than three weeks; only 3 percent of
Canadian hospital administrators said their patients had this brief a
wait.
Bare-Bones Health Care
Barring epidemics and other disasters, fewer than one out of 10 people
in prosperous societies will face a major medical crisis in any one
year. Those suffering people, however, are the ones who need help the
most, and the aging of the baby boomers in the United States makes it
likely more serious illnesses will afflict more Americans in the next
couple of decades. The kind of minor health care services the Canadian
system provides well are not what America's aging Baby Boomers will
need most urgently in years to come.
America's health care system already includes too much Canadian-style
bureaucratic delay and inefficiency. For example, the slow acceptance
by Medicare and Medicaid of medical innovation, their exacting
paperwork requirements, delayed and low payments of claims, and the
threat of overzealous prosecution by health care bureaucrats are
driving doctors out of business and giving patients fewer medical
options.
Fixing those flaws would seem to be a much more promising prospect
than a further move down the road Canada has followed to high costs
and low quality of health care.
Robert J. Cihak, M.D. (think@heartland.org) is a senior fellow and
board member of the Discovery Institute and past president of the
Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
30 Sep 2005 11:49:07 AM |
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"Curt" <cje@hevanet.com> wrote:
Yeah, it's the solid Republican mindset of the average Canadian
that keeps their medical costs down.
You confuse the amount paid by the person receiving the service with
"cost." Classic "gimmee" welfare mentality. It's fine when other
peoples' earnings are funding you.
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| User: "Curt" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
30 Sep 2005 04:03:07 PM |
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"Sammy's Bistro" <harmony992@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:c2rqj15gi8p9uup5ffv95hheshmo0epres@4ax.com...
"Curt" <cje@hevanet.com> wrote:
Yeah, it's the solid Republican mindset of the average Canadian
that keeps their medical costs down.
You confuse the amount paid by the person receiving the service with
"cost." Classic "gimmee" welfare mentality. It's fine when other
peoples' earnings are funding you.
The OVERALL system they have costs less, per capita, than the OVERALL system
we have. Per capita. Unless I wildly misunderstand what's going on up there.
Oh, and they have longer life spans and better infant mortality rates, too,
IIRC.
"Gimmee" indeed.
Curt
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| User: "Sammys Bistro" |
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| Title: Re: Cuba's Health Care System EXCEEDES the U$$A - Tim ducks hard questions |
30 Sep 2005 04:17:28 PM |
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"Curt" <cje@hevanet.com> wrote:
"Sammy's Bistro" <harmony992@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:c2rqj15gi8p9uup5ffv95hheshmo0epres@4ax.com...
"Curt" <cje@hevanet.com> wrote:
Yeah, it's the solid Republican mindset of the average Canadian
that keeps their medical costs down.
You confuse the amount paid by the person receiving the service with
"cost." Classic "gimmee" welfare mentality. It's fine when other
peoples' earnings are funding you.
The OVERALL system they have costs less, per capita, than the OVERALL system
we have. Per capita. Unless I wildly misunderstand what's going on up there.
They spend less, and get less.
Oh, and they have longer life spans and better infant mortality rates, too,
Which has to do with demographics, economics, and not medical care.
Find a comparable population in cultural and socioeconomic terms, and
the Canadian advantage disappears. Compare, say, Minnesota and
Canada. When you include our most dysfunctional and irresponsible
subcultures, you skew the reality (which is undoubtedly your
intention.)
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