| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"Cary Kittrell" |
| Date: |
25 May 2007 12:05:38 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Weak Minded Christians and Schools |
In article <1180103606.595561.318380@a35g2000prd.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
There are two topics for this post. 1. The claim that religion must
be kept out of schools of easily influenced children. 2. The claim
that Christianity is a religion of the naive (easily influence).
1. On the first topic, there are many people that say it is EXTRA
important to protect children from religious influence in public
schools, since they are more easily influence.
Perhaps in your circles. Me, I've never heard this claimed
by anyone.
Aside from the fact
that this establishes state-sponsored atheism,
Right: not teaching Hinduism or Baha'i in our schools is de facto
state-sponsored atheism.
is this what you see in
kids, today? How many kids that you know will willingly accept what
an adult tells them as being fact? Is it not true that kids routinely
challenge EVERYTHING you tell them with a "why" or more? In fact, my
officially banning religion, our society may have just made it the
most attractive thing for youth to follow. So, thanks AU for
inspiring new converts.
How many kids who are not already religious give a tinker's damn
about the whole issue? None that I have met.
2. The second topic is very similar to the first, only dealing with
adults. Many that don't want to accept Christ will claim (to
themselves and others) that Christianity is for the weak-minded and
naive...that those that follow Christ will fall for anything.
Now, we're getting somewhere: this time I DO in fact know people who
make these very claims. In fact I read their drivel every day
on various froups.
The only problem is that these same people make these claims
for religion in general, any religions and all religion:
only the weak-minded and the naive would fall for any
of the theistic religions. Any Muslim or Hindu wandering into
`alt.atheism' gets exactly the same treatment as any
Christian coming there to proselytize.
My
response to that is for everyone to just look around. Does it LOOK
like Christians are falling for evolution, atheism, liberalism,
abortion, homosexual rights, Mohammed, Budda, or other philosophies
out there;
What you just said also describes fundamentalist Islam perfectly
too. Well, with the exception of a slight but necessary re-wording:
Does it LOOK like Muslims are falling for evolution, atheism, liberalism,
abortion, homosexual rights, Christism, Budda, or other philosophies
out there?
Of course we're talking only about fundamentalists here. Many
a more liberal (and often better educated) Christian, or Muslim,
has no trouble at all with evolution, gay rights, abortion,
or liberal worldviews in general.
or, is one of the main condemnations of Christians in our
society that they WON'T go along with what others believe (out of
personal, fundamenalist conviction).
Is it one of the main condemnations of radical Islam that they
will not go along with what others believe?
That doesn't sound like they are
weak-willed or that they buy into everything to me.
-- cary
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Weak Minded Christians and Schools |
25 May 2007 09:38:18 PM |
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On May 25, 12:05 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1180103606.595561.318...@a35g2000prd.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
There are two topics for this post. 1. The claim that religion must
be kept out of schools of easily influenced children. 2. The claim
that Christianity is a religion of the naive (easily influence).
1. On the first topic, there are many people that say it is EXTRA
important to protect children from religious influence in public
schools, since they are more easily influence.
Perhaps in your circles. Me, I've never heard this claimed
by anyone.
False. We've had many discussions online in which many told me that
the children, especially, had to be protected, since they were easily
influenced.
Aside from the fact
that this establishes state-sponsored atheism,
Right: not teaching Hinduism or Baha'i in our schools is de facto
state-sponsored atheism.
It ASSumes that religion is bad, since it ASSumes that children must
be protected from it.
is this what you see in
kids, today? How many kids that you know will willingly accept what
an adult tells them as being fact? Is it not true that kids routinely
challenge EVERYTHING you tell them with a "why" or more? In fact, my
officially banning religion, our society may have just made it the
most attractive thing for youth to follow. So, thanks AU for
inspiring new converts.
How many kids who are not already religious give a tinker's damn
about the whole issue? None that I have met.
Actually, I've met quite a few...so many, in fact, that I question
your honesty here. In fact, there are a lot of movies that present
teens acting religion just to get on the nerves of their teachers.
2. The second topic is very similar to the first, only dealing with
adults. Many that don't want to accept Christ will claim (to
themselves and others) that Christianity is for the weak-minded and
naive...that those that follow Christ will fall for anything.
Now, we're getting somewhere: this time I DO in fact know people who
make these very claims. In fact I read their drivel every day
on various froups.
The only problem is that these same people make these claims
for religion in general, any religions and all religion:
only the weak-minded and the naive would fall for any
of the theistic religions. Any Muslim or Hindu wandering into
`alt.atheism' gets exactly the same treatment as any
Christian coming there to proselytize.
And...that is beside the point.
My
response to that is for everyone to just look around. Does it LOOK
like Christians are falling for evolution, atheism, liberalism,
abortion, homosexual rights, Mohammed, Budda, or other philosophies
out there;
What you just said also describes fundamentalist Islam perfectly
too. Well, with the exception of a slight but necessary re-wording:
Does it LOOK like Muslims are falling for evolution, atheism, liberalism,
abortion, homosexual rights, Christism, Budda, or other philosophies
out there?
Of course we're talking only about fundamentalists here. Many
a more liberal (and often better educated) Christian, or Muslim,
has no trouble at all with evolution, gay rights, abortion,
or liberal worldviews in general.
Again, irrelevant to the point.
or, is one of the main condemnations of Christians in our
society that they WON'T go along with what others believe (out of
personal, fundamenalist conviction).
Is it one of the main condemnations of radical Islam that they
will not go along with what others believe?
That doesn't sound like they are
weak-willed or that they buy into everything to me.
-- cary
You completely ignored the second point. I never said it was ONLY
Christians that this assumption was made about. I just said it was a
false assumption, since Christians are...if anything...TOO close
minded to buy into every little thing that comes across them. They
are the kind of people that need things proven to them, not the ones
that accept "truth" without foundation or facts...like most of those
that go along with liberalism or evolution but couldn't tell you WHY
they do so.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Vosotros" |
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| Title: Re: Weak Minded Christians and Schools |
26 May 2007 12:10:43 PM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180147098.831303.210410@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On May 25, 12:05 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1180103606.595561.318...@a35g2000prd.googlegroups.com> Wide
Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
You completely ignored the second point. I never said it was ONLY
Christians that this assumption was made about. I just said it was a
false assumption, since Christians are...if anything...TOO close
minded to buy into every little thing that comes across them. They
are the kind of people that need things proven to them,
You mean like religion?
not the ones
that accept "truth" without foundation or facts...like most of those
that go along with liberalism or evolution but couldn't tell you WHY
they do so.
So religion has been proven and evolution is not supported by the facts.
I am at a loss for words.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Weak Minded Christians and Schools |
29 May 2007 11:55:24 AM |
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In article <1180147098.831303.210410@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
On May 25, 12:05 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1180103606.595561.318...@a35g2000prd.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
There are two topics for this post. 1. The claim that religion must
be kept out of schools of easily influenced children. 2. The claim
that Christianity is a religion of the naive (easily influence).
1. On the first topic, there are many people that say it is EXTRA
important to protect children from religious influence in public
schools, since they are more easily influence.
Perhaps in your circles. Me, I've never heard this claimed
by anyone.
False. We've had many discussions online in which many told me that
the children, especially, had to be protected, since they were easily
influenced.
Again, *I* have not heard this claimed by anyone.
Of course, you can easily disprove this by examples of people
saying such things in threads in which I have participated.
You may use this space:
Aside from the fact
that this establishes state-sponsored atheism,
Right: not teaching Hinduism or Baha'i in our schools is de facto
state-sponsored atheism.
It ASSumes that religion is bad, since it ASSumes that children must
be protected from it.
No, it ASSumes that you may get ***** if they teach your
kids my religion, be that Wicca or Bastism or the ways of
the Unification Church.
is this what you see in
kids, today? How many kids that you know will willingly accept what
an adult tells them as being fact? Is it not true that kids routinely
challenge EVERYTHING you tell them with a "why" or more? In fact, my
officially banning religion, our society may have just made it the
most attractive thing for youth to follow. So, thanks AU for
inspiring new converts.
How many kids who are not already religious give a tinker's damn
about the whole issue? None that I have met.
Actually, I've met quite a few...so many, in fact, that I question
your honesty here.
As you frequently do. Which says something about your lack of
intellectual self-discipline.
In fact, there are a lot of movies that present
teens acting religion just to get on the nerves of their teachers.
Oh my goodness, there are MOVIES which show this?
Well, that's proof enough for me. And high schoolers also
exude webbing from their wrists and swing around the place
on it.
2. The second topic is very similar to the first, only dealing with
adults. Many that don't want to accept Christ will claim (to
themselves and others) that Christianity is for the weak-minded and
naive...that those that follow Christ will fall for anything.
Now, we're getting somewhere: this time I DO in fact know people who
make these very claims. In fact I read their drivel every day
on various froups.
The only problem is that these same people make these claims
for religion in general, any religions and all religion:
only the weak-minded and the naive would fall for any
of the theistic religions. Any Muslim or Hindu wandering into
`alt.atheism' gets exactly the same treatment as any
Christian coming there to proselytize.
And...that is beside the point.
My
response to that is for everyone to just look around. Does it LOOK
like Christians are falling for evolution, atheism, liberalism,
abortion, homosexual rights, Mohammed, Budda, or other philosophies
out there;
What you just said also describes fundamentalist Islam perfectly
too. Well, with the exception of a slight but necessary re-wording:
Does it LOOK like Muslims are falling for evolution, atheism, liberalism,
abortion, homosexual rights, Christism, Budda, or other philosophies
out there?
Of course we're talking only about fundamentalists here. Many
a more liberal (and often better educated) Christian, or Muslim,
has no trouble at all with evolution, gay rights, abortion,
or liberal worldviews in general.
Again, irrelevant to the point.
Your point is that Christians do not "fall" for such concepts.
I say that that is often incorrect.
Quite germane.
or, is one of the main condemnations of Christians in our
society that they WON'T go along with what others believe (out of
personal, fundamenalist conviction).
Is it one of the main condemnations of radical Islam that they
will not go along with what others believe?
That doesn't sound like they are
weak-willed or that they buy into everything to me.
-- cary
You completely ignored the second point. I never said it was ONLY
Christians that this assumption was made about. I just said it was a
false assumption, since Christians are...if anything...TOO close
minded to buy into every little thing that comes across them. They
are the kind of people that need things proven to them, not the ones
that accept "truth" without foundation or facts...like most of those
that go along with liberalism or evolution but couldn't tell you WHY
they do so.
And my point is that "falling" for an odd and unsupportable world
view, and then becoming so immersed and dependent on that world
view that you will reject any idea which threatens it, no matter how
well supported that threatening idea may be, is both
quite common to religious (and political) belief systems,
and is the precise opposite of being unsuggestible. It indicates
that the memes which you, being suggestible, have adopted have
now innoculated you against freely considering anything which
threatens your beliefs, no matter how reasonable these
"dangerous" ideas may be.
One finds this behavior most strongly displayed in mind-control
cults. However, what you describe above is simply a
more mainstream and somewhat less pathological version
of the same psychological mechanisms.
-- cary
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Weak Minded Christians and Schools |
26 May 2007 02:06:54 AM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
Aside from the fact
that this establishes state-sponsored atheism,
Right: not teaching Hinduism or Baha'i in our schools is de facto
state-sponsored atheism.
It ASSumes that religion is bad, since it ASSumes that children must
be protected from it.
No. Sex is an excellent thing, something that is vital to the
continuation of the species. But I still want young kids protected
from adults trying to foist sex upon them.
Likewise adult-themed movies.
YOU on the other hand, as well as most fundies, want to protect YOUR
kid from "godless atheists". You ASSume that secularism is bad, and
ASSume that kids need protection from it. Why is that?
The only problem is that these same people make these claims
for religion in general, any religions and all religion:
only the weak-minded and the naive would fall for any
of the theistic religions. Any Muslim or Hindu wandering into
`alt.atheism' gets exactly the same treatment as any
Christian coming there to proselytize.
And...that is beside the point.
No it isn't. Your complaint was that CHRISTIANS are singled out as
weak-minded. They aren't. Given that atheists do not believe in any
God, then of course they aren't going to think highly of the
religious. Probably no more highly that you think of atheists.
lojbab
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| User: "Balanced View" |
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| Title: Re: Weak Minded Christians and Schools |
25 May 2007 10:23:38 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
You completely ignored the second point. I never said it was ONLY
Christians that this assumption was made about. I just said it was a
false assumption, since Christians are...if anything...TOO close
minded to buy into every little thing that comes across them. They
are the kind of people that need things proven to them,
And they believe the Bible, without any proof because........?
not the ones
that accept "truth" without foundation or facts...like most of those
that go along with liberalism or evolution but couldn't tell you WHY
they do so.
Jesus was a Liberal and Evolution has evidence to support it, and occurs
around us every day.
If you don't believe in evolution just look at your child with his
mother's eye's, his father's nose
and Great Uncle Clems ears. If all of those are a asset and he lives to
reproduce his genes will
pass to the next generation, If he inherited grandad's bum ticker he
might not.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Weak Minded Christians and Schools |
26 May 2007 09:15:17 AM |
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On May 25, 10:23 pm, Balanced View <N...@nill.net> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
You completely ignored the second point. I never said it was ONLY
Christians that this assumption was made about. I just said it was a
false assumption, since Christians are...if anything...TOO close
minded to buy into every little thing that comes across them. They
are the kind of people that need things proven to them,
And they believe the Bible, without any proof because........?
They don't. They believe it proven.
not the ones
that accept "truth" without foundation or facts...like most of those
that go along with liberalism or evolution but couldn't tell you WHY
they do so.
Jesus was a Liberal and Evolution has evidence to support it, and occurs
around us every day.
If you don't believe in evolution just look at your child with his
mother's eye's, his father's nose
and Great Uncle Clems ears. If all of those are a asset and he lives to
reproduce his genes will
pass to the next generation, If he inherited grandad's bum ticker he
might not.
John 14:6 - Jesus the only way to God...a liberal position?
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Vosotros" |
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| Title: Re: Weak Minded Christians and Schools |
26 May 2007 12:18:23 PM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180188917.535888.164330@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On May 25, 10:23 pm, Balanced View <N...@nill.net> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
You completely ignored the second point. I never said it was ONLY
Christians that this assumption was made about. I just said it was a
false assumption, since Christians are...if anything...TOO close
minded to buy into every little thing that comes across them. They
are the kind of people that need things proven to them,
And they believe the Bible, without any proof because........?
They don't. They believe it proven.
Then what's the proof?
not the ones
that accept "truth" without foundation or facts...like most of those
that go along with liberalism or evolution but couldn't tell you WHY
they do so.
Jesus was a Liberal and Evolution has evidence to support it, and occurs
around us every day.
If you don't believe in evolution just look at your child with his
mother's eye's, his father's nose
and Great Uncle Clems ears. If all of those are a asset and he lives to
reproduce his genes will
pass to the next generation, If he inherited grandad's bum ticker he
might not.
John 14:6 - Jesus the only way to God...a liberal position?
Are you suggesting there aren't any liberals who are christians?
Turn the other cheek?
Is that a conservative position.
The rich have no chance to get into heaven?
Is that a conservative position?
Give away all you have and follow me?
What conservative has done that?
The meek, not the mighty, will inherit the earth?
What conservative doesn't believe in might is right and strength through
force.
Help the poorest among us?
C'mon, if a politician supported all these things he'd be labeled a bleeding
heart by conservatives and immediately denounced as a socialist.
.
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| User: "Balanced View" |
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| Title: Re: Weak Minded Christians and Schools |
26 May 2007 02:03:53 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
On May 25, 10:23 pm, Balanced View <N...@nill.net> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
You completely ignored the second point. I never said it was ONLY
Christians that this assumption was made about. I just said it was a
false assumption, since Christians are...if anything...TOO close
minded to buy into every little thing that comes across them. They
are the kind of people that need things proven to them,
And they believe the Bible, without any proof because........?
They don't. They believe it proven.
How so? There is for example of no evidence of the Exodus, and how is it
a whole nation could wander
about for forty years in an area you could walk across in a couple of weeks?
not the ones
that accept "truth" without foundation or facts...like most of those
that go along with liberalism or evolution but couldn't tell you WHY
they do so.
Jesus was a Liberal and Evolution has evidence to support it, and occurs
around us every day.
If you don't believe in evolution just look at your child with his
mother's eye's, his father's nose
and Great Uncle Clems ears. If all of those are a asset and he lives to
reproduce his genes will
pass to the next generation, If he inherited grandad's bum ticker he
might not.
John 14:6 - Jesus the only way to God...a liberal position?
And if you examine that statement it means following in his path, which
means feeding the poor, lame,
and elderly, being your brother's keeper etc.... all Liberal beliefs.
.
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: Weak Minded Christians and Schools |
26 May 2007 11:00:00 PM |
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On May 26, 2007, Balanced View wrote
(in article <f3a08t$2p3$1@aioe.org>):
Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
On May 25, 10:23 pm, Balanced View <N...@nill.net> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
You completely ignored the second point. I never said it was ONLY
Christians that this assumption was made about. I just said it was a
false assumption, since Christians are...if anything...TOO close
minded to buy into every little thing that comes across them. They
are the kind of people that need things proven to them,
And they believe the Bible, without any proof because........?
They don't. They believe it proven.
How so? There is for example of no evidence of the Exodus, and how is it
a whole nation could wander
about for forty years in an area you could walk across in a couple of weeks?
not the ones
that accept "truth" without foundation or facts...like most of those
that go along with liberalism or evolution but couldn't tell you WHY
they do so.
Jesus was a Liberal and Evolution has evidence to support it, and occurs
around us every day.
If you don't believe in evolution just look at your child with his
mother's eye's, his father's nose
and Great Uncle Clems ears. If all of those are a asset and he lives to
reproduce his genes will
pass to the next generation, If he inherited grandad's bum ticker he
might not.
John 14:6 - Jesus the only way to God...a liberal position?
And if you examine that statement it means following in his path, which
means feeding the poor, lame,
and elderly, being your brother's keeper etc.... all Liberal beliefs.
Wide Eyed Blunder is more of a George W Bush
"Christian" than a Jesus Christian.
Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------------
Pain is inevitable but suffering is optional.
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