| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
17 Nov 2003 03:45:28 PM |
| Object: |
Saddam or not, they just don't want us there |
Saddam or not, they just don't want us there
(Filed: 16/11/2003)
The parallels between the recent US action against Iraq and the
British invasion in 1920 are disturbingly close, but nobody seems to
have noticed, writes John Simpson
The greatest military power on earth marched into Iraq, utterly
confident that the Iraqi people would welcome it. Within weeks, a
major uprising had begun and it was forced to start negotiating a way
out. Not the Americans in 2003, but the British in 1920. The parallels
are disturbingly close, and seem mostly to have gone unnoticed.
At the end of the First World War Britain, brimming with
over-confidence, twisted the arm of the League of Nations to give it a
mandate over territory carved from the Turkish empire and called
"Iraq". The British wanted the new country's oil, and they assumed
that everybody there wanted to be governed by them.
With remarkable speed, the British Mandate officials realised that it
wasn't going to work, and that they would have to set up a government
of Iraqis which they could hand the country over to: the first example
- apart from America itself, of course - of a British possession
achieving full independence.
The uprising against them affected every part of Iraq. One hundred
thousand people died, and the British only managed to hang on to power
by rushing in the Indian army.
As the rebellion continued for several years, the British were
sometimes disgustingly brutal. Winston Churchill advised the RAF to
bomb recalcitrant Kurdish villages with poison gas, which it duly did;
thereby establishing a dubious historical precedent.
Iraq eventually achieved full independence in 1932. Its educational
system, its roads, its communications all gained remarkably as a
result of the 12-year British presence, but the British themselves
were not wanted. The one thing that the Iraqis share is a stubborn
sense of pride in themselves, and a dislike of being pushed around by
outsiders.
Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, and Paul Wolfowitz, his
deputy at the Pentagon, allowed themselves to suggest that most Iraqis
were longing for the arrival of American troops and the creation of an
American link. Not so.
In 1920 there was, of course, no Saddam Hussein figure. This is the
second war in two years which the Americans have fought against a
personalised enemy, without managing to catch either of them.
A year ago we were assured in some over-credulous newspaper and
magazine articles that Osama bin Laden was unquestionably dead; last
month the CIA said that the latest tape from him, condemning the
goings-on in Iraq, was probably genuine.
Now that President Bush has done his U-turn and decided to hand over
to an Iraqi administration sooner rather than later, the appalling
possibility exists that the Americans will do a runner while leaving
Saddam in a position to influence things still.
But where is he? Combining information from several well-informed
sources, I think we can venture the following: he is in the desert to
the west or north-west of Baghdad, within striking reach of the
Jordanian and Syrian borders, and is being protected by the Bedouin
tribes that he cultivated so assiduously while he was in power.
This is a vast area, with only four or five roads crossing it. Any
force of armoured vehicles or helicopters setting out to get him would
be spotted long before it arrived.
In case of attack, he probably has the option of hiding in a small
underground bunker which was built during the 1990s. The architect who
designed it and the labourers who built it will all have been disposed
of afterwards, Mafia-style, and only Saddam and perhaps two or three
of his closest associates will know where it is.
It will be stocked with enough supplies to keep them going for years,
together - we can be sure - with a short-wave radio set. Saddam has
always been an assiduous listener and viewer of the BBC; as I found to
my own cost before this last war started.
So is he masterminding the campaign against the American presence?
Probably not; after all, like Osama bin Laden, his one great strategic
advantage is that he is still alive and uncaught, and if he is
constantly meeting people in the underground movement, he'll be
betrayed at some point. It is much more likely that his deputy, Izzat
Ibrahim, controls the resistance from his hiding-place in eastern
Syria.
Most of the resistance is instinctive rather than organised, and much
of it isn't even pro-Saddam. It's just that, as in 1920, large numbers
of Iraqis want to be left alone.
If Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz had done a little light
historical reading beforehand, they might have thought twice about
following exactly what the British did, 83 years before.
• John Simpson is the BBC's World Affairs Editor
© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2003. Terms & Conditions of
reading.
Commercial information. Privacy Policy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/11/16/wchop216.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/11/16/ixnewstop.html
.
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: Saddam or not, they just don't want us there |
17 Nov 2003 04:17:00 PM |
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<david.bozzi1@inkblotpoetry.com> wrote in message
news:873808cc.0311171345.22d812d0@posting.google.com...
Saddam or not, they just don't want us there
(Filed: 16/11/2003)
The parallels between the recent US action against Iraq and the
British invasion in 1920 are disturbingly close, but nobody seems to
have noticed, writes John Simpson
The greatest military power on earth marched into Iraq, utterly
confident that the Iraqi people would welcome it. Within weeks, a
major uprising had begun and it was forced to start negotiating a way
out. Not the Americans in 2003, but the British in 1920. The parallels
are disturbingly close, and seem mostly to have gone unnoticed.
At the end of the First World War Britain, brimming with
over-confidence, twisted the arm of the League of Nations to give it a
mandate over territory carved from the Turkish empire and called
"Iraq". The British wanted the new country's oil, and they assumed
that everybody there wanted to be governed by them.
With remarkable speed, the British Mandate officials realised that it
wasn't going to work, and that they would have to set up a government
of Iraqis which they could hand the country over to: the first example
- apart from America itself, of course - of a British possession
achieving full independence.
The uprising against them affected every part of Iraq. One hundred
thousand people died, and the British only managed to hang on to power
by rushing in the Indian army.
As the rebellion continued for several years, the British were
sometimes disgustingly brutal. Winston Churchill advised the RAF to
bomb recalcitrant Kurdish villages with poison gas, which it duly did;
thereby establishing a dubious historical precedent.
Iraq eventually achieved full independence in 1932. Its educational
system, its roads, its communications all gained remarkably as a
result of the 12-year British presence, but the British themselves
were not wanted. The one thing that the Iraqis share is a stubborn
sense of pride in themselves, and a dislike of being pushed around by
outsiders.
Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, and Paul Wolfowitz, his
deputy at the Pentagon, allowed themselves to suggest that most Iraqis
were longing for the arrival of American troops and the creation of an
American link. Not so.
In 1920 there was, of course, no Saddam Hussein figure. This is the
second war in two years which the Americans have fought against a
personalised enemy, without managing to catch either of them.
A year ago we were assured in some over-credulous newspaper and
magazine articles that Osama bin Laden was unquestionably dead; last
month the CIA said that the latest tape from him, condemning the
goings-on in Iraq, was probably genuine.
Now that President Bush has done his U-turn and decided to hand over
to an Iraqi administration sooner rather than later, the appalling
possibility exists that the Americans will do a runner while leaving
Saddam in a position to influence things still.
But where is he? Combining information from several well-informed
sources, I think we can venture the following: he is in the desert to
the west or north-west of Baghdad, within striking reach of the
Jordanian and Syrian borders, and is being protected by the Bedouin
tribes that he cultivated so assiduously while he was in power.
This is a vast area, with only four or five roads crossing it. Any
force of armoured vehicles or helicopters setting out to get him would
be spotted long before it arrived.
In case of attack, he probably has the option of hiding in a small
underground bunker which was built during the 1990s. The architect who
designed it and the labourers who built it will all have been disposed
of afterwards, Mafia-style, and only Saddam and perhaps two or three
of his closest associates will know where it is.
It will be stocked with enough supplies to keep them going for years,
together - we can be sure - with a short-wave radio set. Saddam has
always been an assiduous listener and viewer of the BBC; as I found to
my own cost before this last war started.
So is he masterminding the campaign against the American presence?
Probably not; after all, like Osama bin Laden, his one great strategic
advantage is that he is still alive and uncaught, and if he is
constantly meeting people in the underground movement, he'll be
betrayed at some point. It is much more likely that his deputy, Izzat
Ibrahim, controls the resistance from his hiding-place in eastern
Syria.
Most of the resistance is instinctive rather than organised, and much
of it isn't even pro-Saddam. It's just that, as in 1920, large numbers
of Iraqis want to be left alone.
If Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz had done a little light
historical reading beforehand, they might have thought twice about
following exactly what the British did, 83 years before.
. John Simpson is the BBC's World Affairs Editor
Mean time, back in the real world where lefties at the BBC dare not go,
there is this:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-24-iraq-poll_x.htm
Posted 9/24/2003 10:37 AM
Poll finds Baghdad residents glad to be rid of Saddam
WASHINGTON (AP) - Most residents of Baghdad say that ousting Saddam Hussein
was worth the hardships they've endured since then, says a Gallup poll that
shows they are divided on whether the country is worse off or better off
than before the U.S. invasion.
Two-thirds, 67%, say they think that Iraq will be in better condition five
years from now than it was before the U.S.-led invasion. Only 8% say they
think it will be worse off.
But they're not convinced that Iraq is better off now - 47% said the country
is worse off than before the invasion and 33% said it is better off.
The Gallup poll of 1,178 adults was conducted face to face in the
respondents' household from Aug. 28 through Sept. 4 and has a margin of
error of plus or minus 3 percentage points. Gallup plans to poll extensively
in the coming months and years in Iraq and has established a center in
Baghdad to coordinate the polling effort.
The survey found that 62% think ousting Saddam was worth the hardships they
have endured since the invasion. In the five months since coalition forces
defeated Saddam and his armies, Iraq has faced continuing violence,
electrical outages, job shortages and civil unrest.
Six in 10 said they have a favorable view of the new Iraqi Governing
Council, but most see its priorities as set by coalition authorities. Half
said the coalition authorities are doing a better job now than two months
ago, while 14% said they were doing a worse job.
Richard Burkholder, head of the Gallup team in Baghdad, said residents of
the city of more than 6 million were eager to talk with his researchers and
most who were contacted agreed to be interviewed in their own homes. Gallup
drew its sample from different neighborhoods throughout the capital.
.....................
Poll suggests most in Baghdad don't want troops to leave too quickly
WILL LESTER, Associated Press Writer
Monday, October 13, 2003
©2003 Associated Press
(10-13) 22:29 PDT WASHINGTON (AP) --
When Gallup set out recently to poll Baghdad residents, the biggest surprise
may have been the public's reaction to the questioners: Almost everyone
responded to the pollsters' questions, with some pleading for a chance to
give their opinions.
"The interviews took more than an hour to do, people were extremely
cooperative with open-ended questions," said Richard Burkholder, director of
international polling for Gallup. "People went on and on."
But many of those Iraqis still have sharply mixed feelings about the U.S.
military presence.
The Gallup poll found that 71 percent of the capital city's residents felt
U.S. troops should not leave in the next few months. Just 26 percent felt
the troops should leave that soon.
However, a sizable minority felt that circumstances could occur in which
attacks against the troops could be justified. Almost one in five, 19
percent, said attacks could be justified, and an additional 17 percent said
they could be in some situations.
These mixed feelings in Baghdad come at a time when many in the United
States are urging that the troops be brought home soon.
Almost six in 10 in the poll, 58 percent, said that U.S. troops in Baghdad
have behaved fairly well or very well, with one in 10 saying "very well."
Twenty 20 percent said the troops have behaved fairly badly and 9 percent
said very badly.
Gallup, one of the nation's best-known polling operations, hired more than
40 questioners, mostly Iraqi citizens directed by survey managers who have
helped with other Gallup polling in Arab countries. Respondents were told
the poll was being done for media both in Iraq and outside their country,
but no mention was made that the American polling firm was running it.
To conduct the poll, Gallup did interviews face-to-face in people's homes
chosen at random from all geographic sectors of the city, and more than nine
in 10 agreed to participate, at least double the response rate for many U.S.
telephone polls. Pollsters in the United States have an increasingly
difficult time getting cooperation from people called on the phone.
"This is the way we did polling in the United States before telephone
ownership got to the point that we could do reliable phone surveys,"
Burkholder said in an interview with The Associated Press. The poll of 1,178
adults was taken between Aug. 28 and Sept. 4 and had a margin of error of
plus or minus 3 percentage points.
Burkholder said Gallup plans to do further polling in Baghdad in coming
months and hopes eventually to expand throughout Iraq. Gallup plans to
release much of the data through its subscription service, the Gallup Poll
Tuesday Briefing.
Gallup started its operation in Baghdad because it felt Baghdad would have
the lowest security risks after the war, but that hasn't turned out to be
the case, Burkholder said. Six in 10 Baghdad residents said that within the
past four weeks they had been afraid at times to go outside their homes
during the day.
.
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| User: "BW" |
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| Title: Re: Saddam or not, the Democrats just aren't happy |
17 Nov 2003 04:57:08 PM |
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"John" <John@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:wNbub.54606$n6.10545@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
<david.bozzi1@inkblotpoetry.com> wrote in message
news:873808cc.0311171345.22d812d0@posting.google.com...
Saddam or not, they just don't want us there
(Filed: 16/11/2003)
[balance of leftist Democrat BS snipped]
Mean time, back in the real world where lefties at the BBC dare not go,
there is this:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-24-iraq-poll_x.htm
Posted 9/24/2003 10:37 AM
Poll finds Baghdad residents glad to be rid of Saddam
WASHINGTON (AP) - Most residents of Baghdad say that ousting Saddam
Hussein
was worth the hardships they've endured since then, says a Gallup poll
that
shows they are divided on whether the country is worse off or better off
than before the U.S. invasion.
Two-thirds, 67%, say they think that Iraq will be in better condition five
years from now than it was before the U.S.-led invasion. Only 8% say they
think it will be worse off.
The thing that REALLY ticks off today's Democrats, besides the fact that
once again President Bush has been proven to be correct, is that only about
8% of the AMERICAN residents say they think the Democrat Party is better off
now than it was before Bush beat Gore, before the GOP won the House and
Senate races in 2000, before the GOP won the House and Senate races in 2002,
and before the GOP won the California, Kentucky, and Mississippi governor
races in 2003.
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| User: "Alun Harford" |
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| Title: Re: Saddam or not, they just don't want us there |
17 Nov 2003 06:28:15 PM |
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"John" <John@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:wNbub.54606$n6.10545@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Mean time, back in the real world where lefties at the BBC dare not go,
there is this:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-24-iraq-poll_x.htm
Posted 9/24/2003 10:37 AM
Poll finds Baghdad residents glad to be rid of Saddam
WASHINGTON (AP) - Most residents of Baghdad say that ousting Saddam
Hussein
was worth the hardships they've endured since then, says a Gallup poll
that
shows they are divided on whether the country is worse off or better off
than before the U.S. invasion.
Two-thirds, 67%, say they think that Iraq will be in better condition five
years from now than it was before the U.S.-led invasion. Only 8% say they
think it will be worse off.
But they're not convinced that Iraq is better off now - 47% said the
country
is worse off than before the invasion and 33% said it is better off.
The important question is "why"?
The important answer is "sanctions".
www.casi.org.uk
Alun Harford
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: Saddam or not, they just don't want us there |
18 Nov 2003 07:29:07 AM |
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"Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bpbp2q$t75$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
"John" <John@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:wNbub.54606$n6.10545@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Mean time, back in the real world where lefties at the BBC dare not go,
there is this:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-24-iraq-poll_x.htm
Posted 9/24/2003 10:37 AM
Poll finds Baghdad residents glad to be rid of Saddam
WASHINGTON (AP) - Most residents of Baghdad say that ousting Saddam
Hussein
was worth the hardships they've endured since then, says a Gallup poll
that
shows they are divided on whether the country is worse off or better off
than before the U.S. invasion.
Two-thirds, 67%, say they think that Iraq will be in better condition
five
years from now than it was before the U.S.-led invasion. Only 8% say
they
think it will be worse off.
But they're not convinced that Iraq is better off now - 47% said the
country
is worse off than before the invasion and 33% said it is better off.
The important question is "why"?
The important answer is "sanctions".
www.casi.org.uk
Alun Harford
You don't know that Alun... that is ridiculous. Saddam slaughtered Kurds and
Shite by the train loads, which is why they were so terrified of him.
Sanctions are dropped BECAUSE Saddam is finally gone, but many Iraqis did
not like living under a brutal fascist dictatorship. Why should they... he
kept most of the goodies and oil wealth for himself.
John
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| User: "chimera" |
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| Title: Re: Saddam or not, they just don't want us there |
17 Nov 2003 06:03:01 PM |
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In article <wNbub.54606$n6.10545@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
"John" <John@nospam.com> wrote:
Mean time, back in the real world where lefties at the BBC dare not go,
there is this:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-24-iraq-poll_x.htm
did you actually read the articles all the way through? they do
not support the position you seem to think they do.
.
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: Saddam or not, they just don't want us there |
18 Nov 2003 07:25:18 AM |
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"chimera" <chimera@chimericy.com> wrote in message
news:Vkdub.170891$mZ5.1203694@attbi_s54...
In article <wNbub.54606$n6.10545@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
"John" <John@nospam.com> wrote:
Mean time, back in the real world where lefties at the BBC dare not go,
there is this:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-24-iraq-poll_x.htm
did you actually read the articles all the way through? they do
not support the position you seem to think they do.
Yes... I read it, and I read the response to both polls... did you? They
must trust America quite a bit to be so optimistic about the future as well.
The BBC should read them too instead of trying to foster the view that most
Iraqis want brutal scum like Saddam back - save a few loyalist that loved
his fascist regime. Many of them are terrified of a more representative form
of gov in Iraq.
John
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