| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
05 Sep 2006 09:21:10 PM |
| Object: |
San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
Ignoring the weak turnout, commercial exploitation, and left wing freak
show atmosphere, the San Francisco Chronicle today ran headlines
proclaiming "Immigrants, Labor Walk on Common Ground". I'm really
getting sick of leftist papers ignoring the fact that what is being
discussed by our nations leaders is amnestry for ILLEGAL ALIENS, not
legal immigrant rights. It seems that this tactic, of generalizing the
illegal population to the immigrant population as a whole, is done to
both scare legal immigrants, and confuse the issue of illegal
immigration in the eyes of the public. I hope presons reading these
NG's will write letters to the editor asking them to distinguish
between the two groups, in the interest of fairness and truthful
journalism. Especially effective would be letters from legal
immigrants, who are outraged and disgusted by the fact that this
newspaper has lumped law abiding migrants with law breaking illegal
immigrants.I am also unhappy with the way the Chronicle tried to make
it seem as if working class union members have anything in common with
the illegals. The truth is, the unions now face extinction due to the
fact that businesses and general contractors can hire cheap, non-union
labor, who in many cases won't unionize for fear of discovery, because
they can't speak the language, and because they come from cultures
where corruption and nepotisim are so widespred, that unionization is
impossible. Whoever wishes may take a gander at this pathetic attempt
to hide the real issues at:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/09/05/MNGQ4KVB081.DTL
.
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| User: "Iconoclast" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
06 Sep 2006 02:32:10 PM |
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<newdragoon@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157509270.574418.299160@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ignoring the weak turnout, commercial exploitation, and left wing freak
show atmosphere, the San Francisco Chronicle today ran headlines
proclaiming "Immigrants, Labor Walk on Common Ground". I'm really
getting sick of leftist papers ignoring the fact that what is being
discussed by our nations leaders is amnestry for ILLEGAL ALIENS, not
legal immigrant rights. It seems that this tactic, of generalizing the
illegal population to the immigrant population as a whole, is done to
both scare legal immigrants, and confuse the issue of illegal
immigration in the eyes of the public. I hope presons reading these
NG's will write letters to the editor asking them to distinguish
between the two groups, in the interest of fairness and truthful
journalism. Especially effective would be letters from legal
immigrants, who are outraged and disgusted by the fact that this
newspaper has lumped law abiding migrants with law breaking illegal
immigrants.I am also unhappy with the way the Chronicle tried to make
it seem as if working class union members have anything in common with
the illegals. The truth is, the unions now face extinction due to the
fact that businesses and general contractors can hire cheap, non-union
labor, who in many cases won't unionize for fear of discovery, because
they can't speak the language, and because they come from cultures
where corruption and nepotisim are so widespred, that unionization is
impossible. Whoever wishes may take a gander at this pathetic attempt
to hide the real issues at:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/09/05/MNGQ4KVB081.DTL
The union participation is fascinating and warrants more research, IMO. I
live in Boulder, Colorado, and I remember when my oldest daughter was in
kindergarden here in Boulder that she had a new best friend whose parents
had just moved here from New Paltz, (sp?) New York. Her mother wrote a
book on abortion that was well recieved in Boulder and among NOW-type women.
The book addressed poverty, minority women, and abortion. ("Wake Up Little
Suzie," by Rickie Solinger). I only mention that because it gives a clue as
to the politics of her mom.
The girl, whom I'll call "Golda," became an activist in high school, started
a school newspaper that could be described as "progressive," started a radio
show on KGNU addressed to high school age "activists," (KGNU is the leftist
"listener supported" radio station in Boulder), and later went on to
Columbia University and worked part time for Amy Goodman at Pacifica Radio's
"Democracy Now." She was also active at the Rocky Mountain Peace and
Justice Center in Boulder when she was attending New Vista High School with
my daughter. The RMPJ is a pro-illegal immigration group that supports "No
More Deaths" and groups like the American Friends Services Committee, and
variousl Raza groups in Boulder that support sanctuary city policies and
illegal aliens.
I was fascinated to discover when she stopped in for dinner at our house a
few weeks ago while visiting Boulder from New York that she was now
volunteering her time for these union organizers who organize illegal alien
rallys. I tried to piece together how this White girl who grew up in
Boulder ended up on this path toward working first for KGNU and the Rocky
Mountain Peace and Justice Center and then for Amy Goodman at Democracy Now
and then organizing these marches and getting funding for the "progressives"
who support the Reconquista. She volunteers for the unions like the
Janitors for Justice and the hotel and motel services unions that were the
chief organizers behind the May Day rallies in Los Angeles and elsewhere.
Having "Golda" over for dinner just gave me a glimpse of the kind of
organization that goes on behind the illegal alien rallies and the myriad
peace and justice-type centers that pop up in cities all over the Front
Range in Colorado who support the colonization of Colorado by Mexican and
Central American invaders. One can see how conspiracy theories arise and
how they are immediately attacked, laughed at and dismissed by the people in
whose interest it is to have them remain invisible.
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
10 Sep 2006 03:29:20 PM |
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"Iconoclast" <Iconoclast@ecoweb.co.zw> wrote in message
news:DeGdnYDMKY_Uv2LZnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
I was fascinated to discover when she stopped in for dinner at our house a
few weeks ago while visiting Boulder from New York that she was now
volunteering her time for these union organizers who organize illegal
alien
rallys. I tried to piece together how this White girl who grew up in
Boulder ended up on this path toward working first for KGNU and the Rocky
Mountain Peace and Justice Center and then for Amy Goodman at Democracy
Now
and then organizing these marches and getting funding for the
"progressives"
who support the Reconquista. She volunteers for the unions like the
Janitors for Justice and the hotel and motel services unions that were the
chief organizers behind the May Day rallies in Los Angeles and elsewhere.
Having "Golda" over for dinner just gave me a glimpse of the kind of
organization that goes on behind the illegal alien rallies and the myriad
peace and justice-type centers that pop up in cities all over the Front
Range in Colorado who support the colonization of Colorado by Mexican and
Central American invaders. One can see how conspiracy theories arise and
how they are immediately attacked, laughed at and dismissed by the people
in
whose interest it is to have them remain invisible.
Union leaders (not necessarily the members) are looking at illegals as a new
source of union dues, and are enthused about the prospect for several
reasons, but one in particular stands out: corruption in Mexican political
culture is so endemic that Mexican workers certain things such as bribery,
extortion, and the use of violence under the color of authority as just the
way things are done. American workers have a reputation of being too
uncooperative for the likes of union types - Mexicans used to having to slip
somebody some cash to get things done are a lot easier to deal with. :O|
.
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| User: "Iconoclast" |
|
| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
13 Sep 2006 01:23:59 AM |
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"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in message
news:8b95f$4504758e$45035f0d$32220@msgid.meganewsservers.com...
"Iconoclast" <Iconoclast@ecoweb.co.zw> wrote in message
news:DeGdnYDMKY_Uv2LZnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
I was fascinated to discover when she stopped in for dinner at our house
a
few weeks ago while visiting Boulder from New York that she was now
volunteering her time for these union organizers who organize illegal
alien
rallys. I tried to piece together how this White girl who grew up in
Boulder ended up on this path toward working first for KGNU and the Rocky
Mountain Peace and Justice Center and then for Amy Goodman at Democracy
Now
and then organizing these marches and getting funding for the
"progressives"
who support the Reconquista. She volunteers for the unions like the
Janitors for Justice and the hotel and motel services unions that were
the
chief organizers behind the May Day rallies in Los Angeles and elsewhere.
Having "Golda" over for dinner just gave me a glimpse of the kind of
organization that goes on behind the illegal alien rallies and the myriad
peace and justice-type centers that pop up in cities all over the Front
Range in Colorado who support the colonization of Colorado by Mexican and
Central American invaders. One can see how conspiracy theories arise
and
how they are immediately attacked, laughed at and dismissed by the people
in
whose interest it is to have them remain invisible.
Union leaders (not necessarily the members) are looking at illegals as a
new
source of union dues, and are enthused about the prospect for several
reasons, but one in particular stands out: corruption in Mexican political
culture is so endemic that Mexican workers certain things such as bribery,
extortion, and the use of violence under the color of authority as just
the
way things are done. American workers have a reputation of being too
uncooperative for the likes of union types - Mexicans used to having to
slip
somebody some cash to get things done are a lot easier to deal with. :O|
That's a frightening thought.
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
11 Sep 2006 02:45:24 PM |
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"Tim Crowley" <timmyturmoil@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157960414.044353.265860@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Stan de SD wrote:
"Tim Crowley" <timmyturmoil@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157921025.929572.202140@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Stan de SD wrote:
Union leaders (not necessarily the members) are looking at illegals
as a
new
source of union dues, and are enthused about the prospect for
several
reasons, but one in particular stands out: corruption in Mexican
political
culture is so endemic that Mexican workers certain things such as
bribery,
extortion, and the use of violence under the color of authority as
just
the
way things are done. American workers have a reputation of being too
uncooperative for the likes of union types - Mexicans used to having
to
slip
somebody some cash to get things done are a lot easier to deal with.
:O|
I don't suppose you have any proof to support these idiotic claims?
Sure do - the entire political and economic history of Mexico since
1911.
No?
Lived and worked in Mexico for one year, travelled over 10,000 miles by
car
in Mexico over the last 30+ years (including driving from LA to Mexico
City,
DF and back). Seen the effect of mordidas and patronage politics up
front
and close. Tell us about your extensive qualifications and experience,
Timmy, or STFU. Y que?
You made claims. YOU back them up.
Here you go:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0831thebite.html
.
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| User: "Miriam Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
10 Sep 2006 07:39:45 PM |
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Stan de SD wrote:
"Iconoclast" <Iconoclast@ecoweb.co.zw> wrote in message
news:DeGdnYDMKY_Uv2LZnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
I was fascinated to discover when she stopped in for dinner at our house a
few weeks ago while visiting Boulder from New York that she was now
volunteering her time for these union organizers who organize illegal
alien
rallys. I tried to piece together how this White girl who grew up in
Boulder ended up on this path toward working first for KGNU and the Rocky
Mountain Peace and Justice Center and then for Amy Goodman at Democracy
Now
and then organizing these marches and getting funding for the
"progressives"
who support the Reconquista. She volunteers for the unions like the
Janitors for Justice and the hotel and motel services unions that were the
chief organizers behind the May Day rallies in Los Angeles and elsewhere.
Having "Golda" over for dinner just gave me a glimpse of the kind of
organization that goes on behind the illegal alien rallies and the myriad
peace and justice-type centers that pop up in cities all over the Front
Range in Colorado who support the colonization of Colorado by Mexican and
Central American invaders. One can see how conspiracy theories arise and
how they are immediately attacked, laughed at and dismissed by the people
in
whose interest it is to have them remain invisible.
Union leaders (not necessarily the members) are looking at illegals as a new
source of union dues, and are enthused about the prospect for several
reasons, but one in particular stands out: corruption in Mexican political
culture is so endemic that Mexican workers certain things such as bribery,
extortion, and the use of violence under the color of authority as just the
way things are done. American workers have a reputation of being too
uncooperative for the likes of union types - Mexicans used to having to slip
somebody some cash to get things done are a lot easier to deal with. :O|
It's odd to see people bitching about the "threat" posed by illegal
aliens when it's the ones who come here *LEGALLY* who fly planes into
buildings and stuff. Mohammad Atta et al were here legally.
--
L'Chaim
Miriam
In the beginning
the Word already was.
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
11 Sep 2006 02:37:28 AM |
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"Miriam Cohen" <mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote in message
news:of2Ng.6860$rT5.326@fed1read01...
Stan de SD wrote:
"Iconoclast" <Iconoclast@ecoweb.co.zw> wrote in message
news:DeGdnYDMKY_Uv2LZnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
I was fascinated to discover when she stopped in for dinner at our house
a
few weeks ago while visiting Boulder from New York that she was now
volunteering her time for these union organizers who organize illegal
alien
rallys. I tried to piece together how this White girl who grew up in
Boulder ended up on this path toward working first for KGNU and the
Rocky
Mountain Peace and Justice Center and then for Amy Goodman at Democracy
Now
and then organizing these marches and getting funding for the
"progressives"
who support the Reconquista. She volunteers for the unions like the
Janitors for Justice and the hotel and motel services unions that were
the
chief organizers behind the May Day rallies in Los Angeles and
elsewhere.
Having "Golda" over for dinner just gave me a glimpse of the kind of
organization that goes on behind the illegal alien rallies and the
myriad
peace and justice-type centers that pop up in cities all over the Front
Range in Colorado who support the colonization of Colorado by Mexican
and
Central American invaders. One can see how conspiracy theories arise
and
how they are immediately attacked, laughed at and dismissed by the
people
in
whose interest it is to have them remain invisible.
Union leaders (not necessarily the members) are looking at illegals as a
new
source of union dues, and are enthused about the prospect for several
reasons, but one in particular stands out: corruption in Mexican
political
culture is so endemic that Mexican workers certain things such as
bribery,
extortion, and the use of violence under the color of authority as just
the
way things are done. American workers have a reputation of being too
uncooperative for the likes of union types - Mexicans used to having to
slip
somebody some cash to get things done are a lot easier to deal with. :O|
It's odd to see people bitching about the "threat" posed by illegal
aliens when it's the ones who come here *LEGALLY* who fly planes into
buildings and stuff. Mohammad Atta et al were here legally.
The ones who come here illegally may not be a threat on the same level, but
there are a lot more of them. I'm not insinuating that they are all bad
people, but the fact of matter is if only 1% are criminals, that's still a
large number of people who don't belong here. IMHO, the far greater danger
is a vast majority of people who are general scofflaws, who do not
assimilate, and bring the vestiges of a failed political culture with them.
A survey conducted in Mexico some time back reported that 80% of the
populace reported paying at least one bribe to a public official at one
time. In Mexico paying a bribe to get out of a ticket, get public utilities
turned on, or a business permit is considered the "cost of doing business".
Is it the only culture in the world with this problem? Certainly not - but
it's the culture of the country immediately to the south of us, and the
source of the largest number of illegal aliens. Therefore, it's a legitimate
concern...
.
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| User: "Miriam Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
11 Sep 2006 08:46:16 AM |
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Stan de SD wrote:
"Miriam Cohen" <mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote in message
news:of2Ng.6860$rT5.326@fed1read01...
Stan de SD wrote:
"Iconoclast" <Iconoclast@ecoweb.co.zw> wrote in message
news:DeGdnYDMKY_Uv2LZnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
I was fascinated to discover when she stopped in for dinner at our house
a
few weeks ago while visiting Boulder from New York that she was now
volunteering her time for these union organizers who organize illegal
alien
rallys. I tried to piece together how this White girl who grew up in
Boulder ended up on this path toward working first for KGNU and the
Rocky
Mountain Peace and Justice Center and then for Amy Goodman at Democracy
Now
and then organizing these marches and getting funding for the
"progressives"
who support the Reconquista. She volunteers for the unions like the
Janitors for Justice and the hotel and motel services unions that were
the
chief organizers behind the May Day rallies in Los Angeles and
elsewhere.
Having "Golda" over for dinner just gave me a glimpse of the kind of
organization that goes on behind the illegal alien rallies and the
myriad
peace and justice-type centers that pop up in cities all over the Front
Range in Colorado who support the colonization of Colorado by Mexican
and
Central American invaders. One can see how conspiracy theories arise
and
how they are immediately attacked, laughed at and dismissed by the
people
in
whose interest it is to have them remain invisible.
Union leaders (not necessarily the members) are looking at illegals as a
new
source of union dues, and are enthused about the prospect for several
reasons, but one in particular stands out: corruption in Mexican
political
culture is so endemic that Mexican workers certain things such as
bribery,
extortion, and the use of violence under the color of authority as just
the
way things are done. American workers have a reputation of being too
uncooperative for the likes of union types - Mexicans used to having to
slip
somebody some cash to get things done are a lot easier to deal with. :O|
It's odd to see people bitching about the "threat" posed by illegal
aliens when it's the ones who come here *LEGALLY* who fly planes into
buildings and stuff. Mohammad Atta et al were here legally.
The ones who come here illegally may not be a threat on the same level, but
there are a lot more of them. I'm not insinuating that they are all bad
people, but the fact of matter is if only 1% are criminals, that's still a
large number of people who don't belong here. IMHO, the far greater danger
is a vast majority of people who are general scofflaws, who do not
assimilate, and bring the vestiges of a failed political culture with them.
Muslims breed nearly as quickly as Catholics and it's only a matter of
time before their numbers are greater than those of illegal aliens and
illegal aliens don't harbor ambitions of global dominance. Nor do they
practice jihad, Mexicans don't assimilate? You think Islamofascists do?
scofflaws are not limited to illegal aliens. Many, if not most,
Americans ignore speed limits from time to time, yeah, it's "just a
traffic law" but laws are laws and should be obeyed whether it's
convenient or not for you (plural you not just you individually). I'm
pretty sure that the last time a Mexican attacked the US was Pancho
Villa whereas the Islamofascists are planning to attack us again right now.
--
L'Chaim
Miriam
In the beginning
the Word already was.
.
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| User: "Ramon F Herrera" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
11 Sep 2006 10:52:09 AM |
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Stan de SD wrote:
"Miriam Cohen" <mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote in message
news:of2Ng.6860$rT5.326@fed1read01...
Stan de SD wrote:
"Iconoclast" <Iconoclast@ecoweb.co.zw> wrote in message
news:DeGdnYDMKY_Uv2LZnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
I was fascinated to discover when she stopped in for dinner at our house
a
few weeks ago while visiting Boulder from New York that she was now
volunteering her time for these union organizers who organize illegal
alien
rallys. I tried to piece together how this White girl who grew up in
Boulder ended up on this path toward working first for KGNU and the
Rocky
Mountain Peace and Justice Center and then for Amy Goodman at Democracy
Now
and then organizing these marches and getting funding for the
"progressives"
who support the Reconquista. She volunteers for the unions like the
Janitors for Justice and the hotel and motel services unions that were
the
chief organizers behind the May Day rallies in Los Angeles and
elsewhere.
Having "Golda" over for dinner just gave me a glimpse of the kind of
organization that goes on behind the illegal alien rallies and the
myriad
peace and justice-type centers that pop up in cities all over the Front
Range in Colorado who support the colonization of Colorado by Mexican
and
Central American invaders. One can see how conspiracy theories arise
and
how they are immediately attacked, laughed at and dismissed by the
people
in
whose interest it is to have them remain invisible.
Union leaders (not necessarily the members) are looking at illegals as a
new
source of union dues, and are enthused about the prospect for several
reasons, but one in particular stands out: corruption in Mexican
political
culture is so endemic that Mexican workers certain things such as
bribery,
extortion, and the use of violence under the color of authority as just
the
way things are done. American workers have a reputation of being too
uncooperative for the likes of union types - Mexicans used to having to
slip
somebody some cash to get things done are a lot easier to deal with. :O|
It's odd to see people bitching about the "threat" posed by illegal
aliens when it's the ones who come here *LEGALLY* who fly planes into
buildings and stuff. Mohammad Atta et al were here legally.
The ones who come here illegally may not be a threat on the same level, but
there are a lot more of them. I'm not insinuating that they are all bad
people, but the fact of matter is if only 1% are criminals, that's still a
large number of people who don't belong here. IMHO, the far greater danger
is a vast majority of people who are general scofflaws, who do not
assimilate, and bring the vestiges of a failed political culture with them.
A survey conducted in Mexico some time back reported that 80% of the
populace reported paying at least one bribe to a public official at one
time. In Mexico paying a bribe to get out of a ticket, get public utilities
turned on, or a business permit is considered the "cost of doing business".
Is it the only culture in the world with this problem? Certainly not - but
it's the culture of the country immediately to the south of us, and the
source of the largest number of illegal aliens. Therefore, it's a legitimate
concern...
Stan:
You bring up an excellent point. As a constant traveler with a lot of
time spent on both sides of the border, let me assure you that one of
the reasons (other than the jobs) that people come here is because in
the US we do not to pay bribes to cops. When people go to a more
civilized country they learn to stop at the red lights (in latinamerica
people don't stop at red lights at night for fear of being mugged).
When you mix a less civilized people with more civilized, they both
take the BEST of each other. That's the way humanity has progressed
along the centuries.
What we need to do is come up with creative solutions. I read a long
time ago about a neighborhood that had problems with graffiti. Their
solution was to create some space for those "misunderstood" ;-)
buddying artists to express themselves, they held paintings contests,
etc. It worked wonders! And this was decades ago in a gringo
neighborhood, not in a barrio, btw.
-Ramon
.
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| User: "Tim Crowley" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
11 Sep 2006 02:42:33 AM |
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Stan de SD wrote:
A survey conducted in Mexico some time back reported that 80% of the
populace reported paying at least one bribe to a public official at one
time.
Got a cite for this? No? I didn't think so. You're just a racist pig.
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
11 Sep 2006 02:44:35 PM |
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"Tim Crowley" <timmyturmoil@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157960553.705264.302630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Stan de SD wrote:
A survey conducted in Mexico some time back reported that 80% of the
populace reported paying at least one bribe to a public official at one
time.
Got a cite for this?
Sure do...
===========================================
Little bribes cost Mexico big money
Sergio Solache
Republic Mexico City Bureau
Aug. 31, 2006 12:00 AM
MEXICO CITY - As soon as English teacher Hugo Cerón saw the police lights
flashing in his rearview mirror, he knew what was about to happen. It was
the "bite."
The police officer walked up to the car window and coolly informed Cerón
that he was getting two tickets: for illegally talking on a cellphone while
driving and for not wearing a seat belt. Cerón would have to go down to the
police station, plead guilty and pay a fine. But there was a way out.
"The ticket was 500 pesos ($46), but he offered to let me be on my way for
100 pesos ($9.25)," Cerón said. "It was only because I looked like a good
person, according to him."
Like thousands of Mexicans every day, Cerón paid up.
In Mexico, they call these little bribes mordidas, or "bites," the little
payoffs and kickbacks that people give to cops, teachers and bureaucrats
just to get on with their lives.
It's a culture of corruption that many experts fear is eating away at
Mexico's efforts to modernize, strengthen the rule of law and democracy, and
attract foreign investment.
Alarmed by the millions of pesos disappearing annually in bribes, civic
groups have launched ad campaigns urging people to denounce corruption, some
Mexican states are overhauling their legal systems to eliminate the
bureaucracy that leads to bribery, and schools are trying to teach children
not to offer bribes.
Still, the "bite" continues because many prefer this deep-rooted,
traditional way of getting around and through the system. Mexicans start
paying bribes as children in order to get good grades from their teachers.
At 18, many pay a 200 peso ($19) bribe to be excused from their required
military service. By the time they die, 87 percent of Mexicans will have
paid some sort of bribe, according to a study by CEI Consulting and
Research.
Mexicans rationalize bribes with sayings like "El que no transa no avanza,"
or "he who doesn't sell out, doesn't get ahead." But when you add up all the
little payoffs, about 12 percent of Mexico's gross domestic product is lost
to corruption, CEI estimates. That's enough money to cover all Mexico's
health care needs.
"On the local, state and municipal level, there continues to be high rates
of corruption," President Vicente Fox told The Arizona Republic in a recent
interview. "As far as the mordida, the payoff to the policeman or to the
clerk at the counter, we have to continue creating a strong culture to end
that."
Symptom of bureaucracy
The mordida system dates back through centuries of weak colonial
governments. But it became more ingrained under the Institutional
Revolutionary Party, or PRI, which centralized the economy and governed
Mexico virtually unopposed from 1929 to 2000, according to Irma Sandoval, a
political scientist at the National Autonomous University of Mexico.
"When the PRI was in government, it generated a lack of oversight of public
life," Sandoval said. "It created a kind of monopolistic network associated
with bad government and poor civic life."
Today, most Mexicans blame government bureaucracy for the country's
corruption, according to a poll by Mexico's Public Administration
Department.
Paying a speeding ticket, for example, is a time-consuming ordeal in most
parts of Mexico. Police officers accompany drivers to the police station,
where they must fill out paperwork and pay the fine before going on their
way.
Parking offenses are even worse. Mexican police don't leave parking tickets;
they just tow cars. To get a car out of the impound yard in Mexico City,
drivers must present copies of their registration certificates and driver's
licenses, then pay about $50 in fines and fees, a huge sum in a country
where the minimum wage is $4.30 a day.
In Mexico City, traffic fines have to be paid at a bank or office of the
city treasury. Sometimes, that can involve hours of waiting.
"I went to pay a fine for my father, and I was in the treasury office about
three hours, just to pay 250 pesos ($23)," said Claudia Medina, a university
student. "The bureaucracy is unbearable."
To avoid the wait, citizens give mordidas of $10 to $50 to traffic cops. The
code word is that the money is "for a soda."
Another problem, according to some experts, is Mexico's complicated,
secretive legal system. Trials are performed through an exchange of legal
briefs, a process that can take months or years.
"The backlogs that affect the justice system are enormous," Sen. Jorge
Zermeño Infante said in a report on legal reform in June.
Faced with fighting a charge in court, many citizens opt for the bribe,
instead. Bribes are also paid to speed paperwork at government offices.
"I went to get a driver's license, and they told me it would take three to
four hours," said Erika Martínez of Mexico City. "Then, a man who bribes the
employees came up to me and offered to get the license for me in 20 minutes
for 250 pesos ($23), plus the paperwork fee."
Bigger offenses
With thousands of little bribes exchanging hands every day, bigger
corruption is also a deep-seated problem.
In 2004 several Mexico City administrators were videotaped receiving
millions of pesos in exchange for helping a construction magnate get city
contracts.
Corruption became a major issue in the July 2 presidential election, with
leftist candidate Andrés Manuel López Obrador accusing President Vicente Fox
of creating an "empire of corruption and impunity in our country."
Part of the problem, experts say, are the low salaries paid to government
employees in Mexico. The average department head in a government agency
earns 4,576 pesos a month, or about $424, barely enough to support a family.
A police officer in Mexico state, just outside the capital, earns 3,500
pesos, or $324 a month.
The bribery in Mexico is so pervasive that many travel guides openly advise
foreigners on how to offer and negotiate mordidas.
Although these small bribes make Mexico go round, it is hardly the only
country where the custom is pervasive. Mexico ranks as the 93rd most corrupt
of 158 countries in the world, according to Transparency International, a
watchdog group.
Fighting back
In recent years, the federal government and civic groups have launched a
flurry of programs aimed at cutting down on corruption.
In 2000, the Mexican government passed a new open-records law and created
the Federal Institute of Information Access to enforce it. The law forced
all government agencies to make their contracts and bid processes public.
Some states are also moving to impose U.S.-style oral trials in the hope it
will speed up justice and encourage citizens to use the courts.
This year, Mexico's Public Administration Department launched Web sites
urging citizens to stop paying go-betweens and government employees to do
paperwork. The sites tell people to "Do it yourself" and say "goodbye to
cheating."
Several government agencies now have Web sites where citizens can denounce
acts of bribery. Civic groups and government agencies have also been trying
to attack the culture of corruption through several anti-corruption ad
campaigns in recent years.
"Don't be quiet! Speak up!" urge anti-bribery ads from the Communication
Council, which produces public service announcements. Radio spots urge
citizens to denounce any bribe-taker as a "sellout, a crook, dog and a
curse."
One of the ads shows a boy offering his soccer coach a bribe to put him in
the game. In another ad campaign, launched this year by Mexico's Public
Administration Department, sad music plays as a little boy smashes his piggy
bank for money to bribe his teacher.
The Mexican Education Department has also launched an anti-bribery program
called "Toward a Culture of Legality" and set up suggestion boxes in schools
where children can complain about corruption.
Still, the bribery problem has proved a tenacious foe. A poll by the Public
Administration Department in 2004 indicated 70 percent of Mexicans believe
the public remains as willing as ever to participate in corruption.
About 72 percent of Mexicans said they don't believe Mexico will ever be
able to eliminate the problem.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0831thebite.html
Bribery Is a Way of Life in Mexico
By Brian Carnell
Monday, November 5, 2001
As an example of just how corrupt many developing countries are, a recent
report by Transparency Mexico suggests that bribery to obtain government
services is endemic throughout Mexico.
In a survey of almost 14,000 Mexican households, Transparency Mexico
estimated that more than 200 million individual bribes occur in the country
annually, at a cost of $2.5 billion.
And these are just for normal everyday services. The average bribe measured
in the survey was only $12. Want to get married in Mexico? Give a civil
servant a $10 bribe to secure the date you want. Need to get a driver's
license? Don't forget to bribe the clerk administering the test. Everything
from enrolling children in schools to obtaining garbage collection and water
service in Mexico involves regular bribes to the authorities.
Mexican President Vincente Fox was elected on promises to reform Mexico's
corrupt bureaucracy, but so far Fox's anti-corruption campaign doesn't seem
to have had much of an effect on business-as-usual.
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2001/000102.html
This OECD Working Group on Bribery report evaluates Mexico's
application of the OECD Anti-Bribery Convention and the 1997 Revised
Recommendation. Specifically the report evaluates and recommends measures to
improve Mexico's awareness, prevention, detection and prosecution of the
foreign bribery offence. Promoting anti-bribery awareness campaigns for
Mexican companies operating abroad, facilitating reporting, increasing
pro-activity of law enforcement authorities, and revising certain provisions
on legal persons are among the recommendations.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/53/31/33746033.pdf
Bribery At Border Worries Officials
Mexican Smugglers Intensify Efforts to Entice U.S. Agents
By John Pomfret
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, July 15, 2006; Page A01
SAN DIEGO -- Federal law enforcement officials are investigating a series of
bribery and smuggling cases in what they fear is a sign of increased
corruption among officers who patrol the Mexican border.
Two brothers who worked for the U.S. Border Patrol disappeared in June while
under investigation for smuggling drugs and immigrants, and are believed to
have fled to Mexico. In the past month, two agents from Customs and Border
Protection, which guards border checkpoints, were indicted for taking bribes
to allow illegal immigrants to enter the United States. And earlier this
month, two Border Patrol supervisory agents pleaded guilty to accepting
nearly $200,000 in payoffs to release smugglers and illegal immigrants who
had been detained.
Authorities say two factors are causing concern that larger problems may
develop: The massive buildup of Border Patrol agents in recent years has led
to worries that hiring standards have been lowered; and, as smugglers demand
higher and higher fees to bring illegal immigrants into the United States,
their efforts to bribe those guarding the border have intensified.
The investigations come at a time when the United States is focused on the
security of its borders. Congress is mulling legislation that would pour
billions of additional dollars into securing the border, including the
construction of hundreds more miles of barriers. The Border Patrol, which
has tripled in size in the past decade, is due to grow 50 percent in the
next six years.
"There is more pressure than ever on smuggling networks to find agents who
will work with them," said Andrew Black, an FBI special agent with the
multiagency Border Corruption Task Force in San Diego. "As a result, there's
tremendous temptation for someone who is less than honest to work with them.
Someone who is working on the border can make their salary in a couple of
nights."
While the main corruption problem along the border is still among Mexican
law enforcement officials, there have been numerous arrests of U.S.
officers, too.
Last year in Texas, for example, 10 federal agents were charged with or
convicted of taking bribes from drug dealers or human smugglers. Also last
year, a U.S. Justice Department operation arrested 17 current or former
military and law enforcement officers who were paid $220,000 by undercover
agents to allow counterfeit drugs to cross into Arizona. In 2004 and 2005,
federal authorities in Arizona uncovered numerous relationships, including
marriages, between Border Patrol agents and Latina women illegally in the
United States.
"The smugglers have binoculars and spotters, you name it," said James Wong,
who heads the Immigration and Customs Enforcement's Office of Professional
Responsibility in San Diego, which investigates corruption allegations.
"They scan the line looking for a weak inspector, someone, for example, who
likes to flirt with women. And then they will send a test person, a chatty
female. She shows up and says, 'My friend needs to visit a doctor, but she
doesn't have papers, can you help?' They will get friendly, and before you
know it, they own the employee."
Despite the recent spate of cases around San Diego, the number of federal
corruption cases against agents from Customs and Border Protection and the
Border Patrol has not increased since the 2004 fiscal year, according to
Kristi Clemens, assistant commissioner of the U.S. Customs and Border
Protection in Washington. So far in fiscal 2006, there have been nine cases.
There were 21 the year before and 22 in 2004.
"The bottom line is: If corruption happens anywhere, we're concerned about
it, but it's not an upward trend," Clemens said in a telephone interview.
But interviews with other federal law enforcement officials, security
experts and a Border Patrol union official paint a less rosy picture.
They note that the Department of Homeland Security can provide only two
years of full statistics. There are no data before 2004, because Customs and
Border Protection was formed in 2003, when the Customs Bureau and the
Immigration and Naturalization Service were merged and divided into several
new parts.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/14/AR2006071401525.html
No? I didn't think so. You're just a racist pig.
Making accusations with no facts to back you up? Typical ignorant Lefty
Liberal *****.
.
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| User: "Iconoclast" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
11 Sep 2006 06:45:25 AM |
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"Tim Crowley" <timmyturmoil@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157960553.705264.302630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Stan de SD wrote:
A survey conducted in Mexico some time back reported that 80% of the
populace reported paying at least one bribe to a public official at one
time.
Got a cite for this? No? I didn't think so. You're just a racist pig.
It's in poor form to answer the questions you pose to someone else for them.
Do you suffer from a multiple personality disorder?
.
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| User: "Iconoclast" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
10 Sep 2006 09:51:32 PM |
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"Miriam Cohen" <mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote in message
news:of2Ng.6860$rT5.326@fed1read01...
Stan de SD wrote:
"Iconoclast" <Iconoclast@ecoweb.co.zw> wrote in message
news:DeGdnYDMKY_Uv2LZnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
I was fascinated to discover when she stopped in for dinner at our house
a
few weeks ago while visiting Boulder from New York that she was now
volunteering her time for these union organizers who organize illegal
alien
rallys. I tried to piece together how this White girl who grew up in
Boulder ended up on this path toward working first for KGNU and the Rocky
Mountain Peace and Justice Center and then for Amy Goodman at Democracy
Now
and then organizing these marches and getting funding for the
"progressives"
who support the Reconquista. She volunteers for the unions like the
Janitors for Justice and the hotel and motel services unions that were
the
chief organizers behind the May Day rallies in Los Angeles and elsewhere.
Having "Golda" over for dinner just gave me a glimpse of the kind of
organization that goes on behind the illegal alien rallies and the myriad
peace and justice-type centers that pop up in cities all over the Front
Range in Colorado who support the colonization of Colorado by Mexican and
Central American invaders. One can see how conspiracy theories arise
and
how they are immediately attacked, laughed at and dismissed by the people
in
whose interest it is to have them remain invisible.
Union leaders (not necessarily the members) are looking at illegals as a
new
source of union dues, and are enthused about the prospect for several
reasons, but one in particular stands out: corruption in Mexican
political
culture is so endemic that Mexican workers certain things such as
bribery,
extortion, and the use of violence under the color of authority as just
the
way things are done. American workers have a reputation of being too
uncooperative for the likes of union types - Mexicans used to having to
slip
somebody some cash to get things done are a lot easier to deal with. :O|
It's odd to see people bitching about the "threat" posed by illegal aliens
when it's the ones who come here *LEGALLY* who fly planes into buildings
and stuff. Mohammad Atta et al were here legally.
That's like saying you should ignore a stranger who has broken into your
house because your hired help had killed your daughter in her sleep the day
before.
--
L'Chaim
Miriam
In the beginning
the Word already was.
.
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| User: "DCI" |
|
| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
10 Sep 2006 09:55:57 PM |
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|
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:51:32 -0600, "Iconoclast"
<Iconoclast@ecoweb.co.zw> wrote:
"Miriam Cohen" <mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote in message
news:of2Ng.6860$rT5.326@fed1read01...
Stan de SD wrote:
"Iconoclast" <Iconoclast@ecoweb.co.zw> wrote in message
news:DeGdnYDMKY_Uv2LZnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
I was fascinated to discover when she stopped in for dinner at our house
a
few weeks ago while visiting Boulder from New York that she was now
volunteering her time for these union organizers who organize illegal
alien
rallys. I tried to piece together how this White girl who grew up in
Boulder ended up on this path toward working first for KGNU and the Rocky
Mountain Peace and Justice Center and then for Amy Goodman at Democracy
Now
and then organizing these marches and getting funding for the
"progressives"
who support the Reconquista. She volunteers for the unions like the
Janitors for Justice and the hotel and motel services unions that were
the
chief organizers behind the May Day rallies in Los Angeles and elsewhere.
Having "Golda" over for dinner just gave me a glimpse of the kind of
organization that goes on behind the illegal alien rallies and the myriad
peace and justice-type centers that pop up in cities all over the Front
Range in Colorado who support the colonization of Colorado by Mexican and
Central American invaders. One can see how conspiracy theories arise
and
how they are immediately attacked, laughed at and dismissed by the people
in
whose interest it is to have them remain invisible.
Union leaders (not necessarily the members) are looking at illegals as a
new
source of union dues, and are enthused about the prospect for several
reasons, but one in particular stands out: corruption in Mexican
political
culture is so endemic that Mexican workers certain things such as
bribery,
extortion, and the use of violence under the color of authority as just
the
way things are done. American workers have a reputation of being too
uncooperative for the likes of union types - Mexicans used to having to
slip
somebody some cash to get things done are a lot easier to deal with. :O|
It's odd to see people bitching about the "threat" posed by illegal aliens
when it's the ones who come here *LEGALLY* who fly planes into buildings
and stuff. Mohammad Atta et al were here legally.
That's like saying you should ignore a stranger who has broken into your
house because your hired help had killed your daughter in her sleep the day
before.
Your analogy lacks something!
DCI
.
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| User: "Iconoclast" |
|
| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
11 Sep 2006 10:38:05 PM |
|
|
"DCI" <never@comcast.com> wrote in message
news:s0k9g2hi1era5ti39drd7gsiq3v5oqrg1a@4ax.com...
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:51:32 -0600, "Iconoclast"
<Iconoclast@ecoweb.co.zw> wrote:
"Miriam Cohen" <mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote in message
news:of2Ng.6860$rT5.326@fed1read01...
Stan de SD wrote:
"Iconoclast" <Iconoclast@ecoweb.co.zw> wrote in message
news:DeGdnYDMKY_Uv2LZnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
I was fascinated to discover when she stopped in for dinner at our
house
a
few weeks ago while visiting Boulder from New York that she was now
volunteering her time for these union organizers who organize illegal
alien
rallys. I tried to piece together how this White girl who grew up in
Boulder ended up on this path toward working first for KGNU and the
Rocky
Mountain Peace and Justice Center and then for Amy Goodman at Democracy
Now
and then organizing these marches and getting funding for the
"progressives"
who support the Reconquista. She volunteers for the unions like the
Janitors for Justice and the hotel and motel services unions that were
the
chief organizers behind the May Day rallies in Los Angeles and
elsewhere.
Having "Golda" over for dinner just gave me a glimpse of the kind of
organization that goes on behind the illegal alien rallies and the
myriad
peace and justice-type centers that pop up in cities all over the Front
Range in Colorado who support the colonization of Colorado by Mexican
and
Central American invaders. One can see how conspiracy theories arise
and
how they are immediately attacked, laughed at and dismissed by the
people
in
whose interest it is to have them remain invisible.
Union leaders (not necessarily the members) are looking at illegals as
a
new
source of union dues, and are enthused about the prospect for several
reasons, but one in particular stands out: corruption in Mexican
political
culture is so endemic that Mexican workers certain things such as
bribery,
extortion, and the use of violence under the color of authority as just
the
way things are done. American workers have a reputation of being too
uncooperative for the likes of union types - Mexicans used to having to
slip
somebody some cash to get things done are a lot easier to deal with.
:O|
It's odd to see people bitching about the "threat" posed by illegal
aliens
when it's the ones who come here *LEGALLY* who fly planes into buildings
and stuff. Mohammad Atta et al were here legally.
That's like saying you should ignore a stranger who has broken into your
house because your hired help had killed your daughter in her sleep the
day
before.
Your analogy lacks something!
DCI
Miriam Cohen" <mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> seemed to think that because
Mohammad Atta "et al" were here legally, then all illegal aliens were
therefore good and harmless. I believe her analogy is absurd and lacks
something.
.
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| User: "Robert not Roberto" |
|
| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
06 Sep 2006 09:39:45 AM |
|
|
<newdragoon@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157509270.574418.299160@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ignoring the weak turnout, commercial exploitation, and left wing freak
show atmosphere, the San Francisco Chronicle today ran headlines
proclaiming "Immigrants, Labor Walk on Common Ground". I'm really
getting sick of leftist papers ignoring the fact that what is being
discussed by our nations leaders is amnestry for ILLEGAL ALIENS, not
legal immigrant rights. It seems that this tactic, of generalizing the
illegal population to the immigrant population as a whole, is done to
both scare legal immigrants, and confuse the issue of illegal
immigration in the eyes of the public. I hope presons reading these
NG's will write letters to the editor asking them to distinguish
between the two groups, in the interest of fairness and truthful
journalism. Especially effective would be letters from legal
immigrants, who are outraged and disgusted by the fact that this
newspaper has lumped law abiding migrants with law breaking illegal
immigrants.I am also unhappy with the way the Chronicle tried to make
it seem as if working class union members have anything in common with
the illegals. The truth is, the unions now face extinction due to the
fact that businesses and general contractors can hire cheap, non-union
labor, who in many cases won't unionize for fear of discovery, because
they can't speak the language, and because they come from cultures
where corruption and nepotisim are so widespred, that unionization is
impossible. Whoever wishes may take a gander at this pathetic attempt
to hide the real issues at:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/09/05/MNGQ4KVB081.DTL
What do you expect from this leftest rag? I enjoy watching them slowly lose
readership and lay of their own workers.
.
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| User: "Ramon F Herrera" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
07 Sep 2006 11:16:05 AM |
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|
wrote:
Especially effective would be letters from legal
immigrants, who are outraged and disgusted by the fact that this
newspaper has lumped law [...]
Sure it would be especially effective. But those letters will also be
inexistent.
Don't count on having 99.99% of us latinos writting those letters,
dennouncing our brothers and friends.
There is A LOT of racism hidden in this debate, even Jim Carter said
it. Therefore, we hispanics have to stick together, and we are tightly
united on this issue.
So, if you want those letters, you will have to write them yourself.
-Ramon
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
10 Sep 2006 03:30:41 PM |
|
|
"Ramon F Herrera" <ramon@conexus.net> wrote in message
news:1157645765.501492.300940@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
newdragoon@hushmail.com wrote:
Especially effective would be letters from legal
immigrants, who are outraged and disgusted by the fact that this
newspaper has lumped law [...]
Sure it would be especially effective. But those letters will also be
inexistent.
Don't count on having 99.99% of us latinos writting those letters,
dennouncing our brothers and friends.
There is A LOT of racism hidden in this debate, even Jim Carter said
it. Therefore, we hispanics have to stick together, and we are tightly
united on this issue.
So, if you want those letters, you will have to write them yourself.
Why would you be "united" with people who are in the country illegally? They
are driving down wages, competing for your jobs, and you are subsidizing
them with your tax dollars.
.
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| User: "H. Reader" |
|
| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
08 Sep 2006 09:13:56 AM |
|
|
"Ramon F Herrera" <ramon@conexus.net> wrote in message
news:1157645765.501492.300940@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
newdragoon@hushmail.com wrote:
Especially effective would be letters from legal
immigrants, who are outraged and disgusted by the fact that this
newspaper has lumped law [...]
Sure it would be especially effective. But those letters will also be
inexistent.
Don't count on having 99.99% of us latinos writting those letters,
dennouncing our brothers and friends.
There is A LOT of racism hidden in this debate, even Jim Carter said
it. Therefore, we hispanics have to stick together, and we are tightly
united on this issue.
The racism isn't hidden. You hispanics have been blatantly racist
forever. It's fundamental to your culture.
.
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| User: "Graphic Queen" |
|
| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
08 Sep 2006 02:56:56 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:13:56 GMT, "H. Reader"
<historyreader@verizon.net> wrote:
"Ramon F Herrera" <ramon@conexus.net> wrote in message
news:1157645765.501492.300940@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
newdragoon@hushmail.com wrote:
Especially effective would be letters from legal
immigrants, who are outraged and disgusted by the fact that this
newspaper has lumped law [...]
Sure it would be especially effective. But those letters will also be
inexistent.
Don't count on having 99.99% of us latinos writting those letters,
dennouncing our brothers and friends.
There is A LOT of racism hidden in this debate, even Jim Carter said
it. Therefore, we hispanics have to stick together, and we are tightly
united on this issue.
The racism isn't hidden. You hispanics have been blatantly racist
forever. It's fundamental to your culture.
Very true words reader.
.
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| User: "Iconoclast" |
|
| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
07 Sep 2006 07:02:00 PM |
|
|
"Ramon F Herrera" <ramon@conexus.net> wrote in message
news:1157645765.501492.300940@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
newdragoon@hushmail.com wrote:
Especially effective would be letters from legal
immigrants, who are outraged and disgusted by the fact that this
newspaper has lumped law [...]
You edited and deleted lots of critical information from the original post
you are attempting to discredit. Here, I'll put it all back for the sake of
clarity:
Ignoring the weak turnout, commercial exploitation, and left wing freak
show atmosphere, the San Francisco Chronicle today ran headlines
proclaiming "Immigrants, Labor Walk on Common Ground". I'm really
getting sick of leftist papers ignoring the fact that what is being
discussed by our nations leaders is amnestry for ILLEGAL ALIENS, not
legal immigrant rights. It seems that this tactic, of generalizing the
illegal population to the immigrant population as a whole, is done to
both scare legal immigrants, and confuse the issue of illegal
immigration in the eyes of the public. I hope presons reading these
NG's will write letters to the editor asking them to distinguish
between the two groups, in the interest of fairness and truthful
journalism. Especially effective would be letters from legal
immigrants, who are outraged and disgusted by the fact that this
newspaper has lumped law abiding migrants with law breaking illegal
immigrants.I am also unhappy with the way the Chronicle tried to make
it seem as if working class union members have anything in common with
the illegals. The truth is, the unions now face extinction due to the
fact that businesses and general contractors can hire cheap, non-union
labor, who in many cases won't unionize for fear of discovery, because
they can't speak the language, and because they come from cultures
where corruption and nepotisim are so widespred, that unionization is
impossible. Whoever wishes may take a gander at this pathetic attempt
to hide the real issues at:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/09/05/MNGQ4KVB081.DTL
Sure it would be especially effective. But those letters will also be
inexistent.
Don't count on having 99.99% of us latinos writting those letters,
dennouncing our brothers and friends.
Latinos are not the only immigrants in the U.S. Despite the fact that most
Latinos demand open borders, anarchy, sanctuary cities and diplomatic
immunity and amnesty for their race to the detriment of the rest of
Americans, they don't speak for all immigrants, although they may speak for
their illegal immigrant brothers and sisters and wives and husbands.
There is A LOT of racism hidden in this debate, even Jim Carter said
it.
What debate are you talking about? And who cares if "even Jim Carter said
it?" And what is the "it" that Jim Carter said? When the vast majority of
illegal aliens are Hispanic and from Mexico and have brown skin -- it is
disingenuous for them to hide behind the race card, isn't it? When they
marched on May Day in the streets with their Mexican flags and held signs
calling the California governor and Senator Sensenbrenner "racists," it was
La Raza who turned "it" into a race issue.
Therefore, we hispanics have to stick together, and we are tightly
united on this issue.
The MEChA slogan "Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada" (Everything for
the Race - Nothing outside the Race) -is an example of the group's racism.
So, if you want those letters, you will have to write them yourself.
I see. So Ramon speaks for ALL Hispanics in El Norte. Bwahahahahahahahaha.
-Ramon
.
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| User: "Ramon F Herrera" |
|
| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
07 Sep 2006 10:40:56 PM |
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|
Iconoclast wrote:
I see. So Ramon speaks for ALL Hispanics in El Norte. Bwahahahahahahahaha.
I sure do, a heck of a lot more than any of your commarade in arms
speak for the anti-immigrant side.
-Ramon
ps: were you crying up there??
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
10 Sep 2006 03:36:08 PM |
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"Ramon F Herrera" <ramon@conexus.net> wrote in message
news:1157686855.954682.277190@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Iconoclast wrote:
I see. So Ramon speaks for ALL Hispanics in El Norte.
Bwahahahahahahahaha.
I sure do, a heck of a lot more than any of your commarade in arms
speak for the anti-immigrant side.
Why must you LIE and associate everyone advocating tougher measures against
illegal immigration with being "anti-Immigrant"? I personally have no
problem with people immigrating to the US, but I want it limited to people
who have no criminal records or dangerous diseases, have some semblance of
marketable job skills so they won't be requiring public assistance, are able
and willing to learn English, and have some RESPECT for our LAWS and
CULTURE. We already have difficulty with too many uneducated, unskilled,
non-English speaking people with no respect for our laws in our country
already. Why do we need more of the same?
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| User: "Iconoclast" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
08 Sep 2006 01:12:20 AM |
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"Ramon F Herrera" <ramon@conexus.net> wrote in message
news:1157686855.954682.277190@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Iconoclast wrote:
I see. So Ramon speaks for ALL Hispanics in El Norte.
Bwahahahahahahahaha.
I sure do, a heck of a lot more than any of your commarade in arms
speak for the anti-immigrant side.
Anti-illegal immigant -- not anti-immigrant. As Bob Dylan said, (to
paraphrase) "The loser now shall later be (the winner)." The bad guys
always lose against the Americans, idiot. Mexicans are the bad guys.
-Ramon
ps: were you crying up there??
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| User: "Ramon F Herrera" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
07 Sep 2006 11:26:31 AM |
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wrote:
I'm really
getting sick of leftist papers ignoring the fact that what is being
discussed by our nations leaders is amnestry for ILLEGAL ALIENS, not
legal immigrant rights.
Explain something for us, Dragoon:
If you are so strict and careful, demanding every one to use the
correct terminology, how come on one hand you reject the bundling of
immigrants and use the words ILLEGAL ALLIENS in capitals, with its all
of its value-judgement charged meaning, while at the same time claim
that what is being discussed is AMNESTY?
Don't you know that absolutely no one is supporting amnesty? Why do
you so conveniently use the word amnesty?
Can you say: "hypocrisy" and "double standards"?
-Ramon
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| User: "H. Reader" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
08 Sep 2006 09:15:26 AM |
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"Ramon F Herrera" <ramon@conexus.net> wrote in message news:1157646391.649450.199450@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
newdragoon@hushmail.com wrote:
I'm really
getting sick of leftist papers ignoring the fact that what is being
discussed by our nations leaders is amnestry for ILLEGAL ALIENS, not
legal immigrant rights.
Explain something for us, Dragoon:
If you are so strict and careful, demanding every one to use the
correct terminology, how come on one hand you reject the bundling of
immigrants and use the words ILLEGAL ALLIENS in capitals, with its all
of its value-judgement charged meaning, while at the same time claim
that what is being discussed is AMNESTY?
Don't you know that absolutely no one is supporting amnesty? Why do
you so conveniently use the word amnesty?
Can you say: "hypocrisy" and "double standards"?
Can you say more disinformation from Ramon?
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| User: "Ramon F Herrera" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
08 Sep 2006 10:14:02 AM |
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H. Reader wrote:
Can you say more disinformation from Ramon?
What I have been stating here falls into 2 categories:
- facts (at least as accurate as I see them)
- opinions
Since opinions are subjective, we have to leave them alone and deal
with the cold, hard facts. Would you care to point to *one* wrong fact
that I have written here?
-Ramon
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| User: "Alphonso Mbuto Chaing" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
08 Sep 2006 10:15:12 PM |
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In article <1157646391.649450.199450@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
ramon@conexus.net says...
newdragoon@hushmail.com wrote:
I'm really
getting sick of leftist papers ignoring the fact that what is being
discussed by our nations leaders is amnestry for ILLEGAL ALIENS, not
legal immigrant rights.
Explain something for us, Dragoon:
If you are so strict and careful, demanding every one to use the
correct terminology, how come on one hand you reject the bundling of
immigrants and use the words ILLEGAL ALLIENS in capitals, with its all
of its value-judgement charged meaning, while at the same time claim
that what is being discussed is AMNESTY?
Don't you know that absolutely no one is supporting amnesty? Why do
you so conveniently use the word amnesty?
Can you say: "hypocrisy" and "double standards"?
-Ramon
"Absolutely no one"? Be honest. Call a spade a a spade.
I thought amnesty was/is Bush and the Senate's plan.
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet."
Main Entry: am·nes·ty
Pronunciation: 'am-n&-stE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Greek amnEstia forgetfulness, from amnEstos forgotten, from a- +
mnasthai to remember -- more at MIND
: the act of an authority (as a government) by which pardon is granted to a
large group of individuals
- amnesty transitive verb
------------------------------------
pardon
Main Entry: 1par·don
Pronunciation: 'pär-d&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French pardun, pardoun, from parduner
1 : INDULGENCE 1
2 : the excusing of an offense without exacting a penalty
3 a : a release from the legal penalties of an offense b : an official warrant
of remission of penalty
Since the penalty for illegal immigration is deportation, and under the
proposal, the illegals would be allowed to remain, IT IS AN AMNESTY.
Immigration amnesty bill is costly proposal
http://www.tribune-chronicle.com/Editorials/articles.asp?articleID=8223
When Washington politicos don’t want embarrassing facts to make the front
pages, they release them late in the day on a Friday, by which time even most
of the 24-hour cable reporters have gone home for the weekend.
The release of a Congressional Budget Office assessment of the Senate’s
illegal immigration amnesty bill went a step further: Just to be safe, the CBO
study’s sponsors held its release until a Friday night. And no wonder: The CBO
calculates that the Senate legislation ultimately would grant amnesty to 16
million illegals and cost taxpayers at least $126 billion over the next 10
years.
One of the biggest costs: Some $50 billion in federal benefits that would
accrue to lawbreakers in the form of welfare, Social Security and Medicaid
services — paid for by law-abiding taxpayers.
Apologists for the Senate legislation claim that much of the price tag would
be incurred anyway if real border-enforcement measures were imposed. But these
costs amount to only a fraction of the total tab, according to the CBO report
— less than $10 billion.
Most Americans, polls consistently show, don’t want an amnesty program. They
simply want the U.S. government to adequately enforce our borders and to
welcome those who wish to come here legally to make a better life for
themselves and their families.
The Senate and White House’s continued disconnection on this issue is simply
stunning. Amnesty proponents know by now that theirs is a deeply unpopular
cause. That they would resort to holding the facts at bay until the dark of a
Friday night speaks volumes about the substance of their argument.
editorial@tribune-chronicle.com
----------------
House Republicans reject illegal-aliens amnesty bill
By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
September 8, 2006
House Republicans yesterday officially rejected the Senate immigration bill
that would grant citizenship rights to some 10 million illegal aliens now in
the country.
"We agree that we cannot support the Senate amnesty bill," House Speaker
J. Dennis Hastert said. "This Democrat immigration bill wouldn't secure the
border. It would erase it."
Mr. Hastert met yesterday with other House leaders and the chairman of
several committees to discuss how to proceed with the stalled immigration
legislation and emerged saying new border security proposals will be offered
next week.
The new initiatives will include more border patrol agents, new fencing
and surveillance and stricter enforcement of current laws, which they hope
will pass both the House and the Senate before November's elections....
-----------------
Kennedy: Immigration Will Decide Control of Congress
By Kate Monaghan
CNSNews.com Correspondent
September 08, 2006
(CNSNews.com) - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.) warned Republicans to either accept
the Senate's version of immigration reform - which includes amnesty for
illegal aliens - or risk losing Congress to Democrats in the upcoming mid-term
elections.
"If we can't get this Congress to pass fair immigration before now, we'll
elect a new Congress in November that will pass it," said Kennedy to a
cheering crowd at a rally supporting amnesty for illegal aliens on the
National Mall. "We will pass an immigration bill in Congress that is worthy of
America."
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| User: "Iconoclast" |
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| Title: Re: San Francisco Chronicle's smokescreen |
09 Sep 2006 12:22:20 AM |
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"Alphonso M'buto Chaing" <spiced-ham?No@big.isp> wrote in message
news:88ydndOI54JdrJ_YnZ2dnUVZ_tudnZ2d@comcast.com...
In article <1157646391.649450.199450@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
ramon@conexus.net says...
newdragoon@hushmail.com wrote:
I'm really
getting sick of leftist papers ignoring the fact that what is being
discussed by our nations leaders is amnestry for ILLEGAL ALIENS, not
legal immigrant rights.
Explain something for us, Dragoon:
If you are so strict and careful, demanding every one to use the
correct terminology, how come on one hand you reject the bundling of
immigrants and use the words ILLEGAL ALLIENS in capitals, with its all
of its value-judgement charged meaning, while at the same time claim
that what is being discussed is AMNESTY?
Don't you know that absolutely no one is supporting amnesty? Why do
you so conveniently use the word amnesty?
Can you say: "hypocrisy" and "double standards"?
-Ramon
"Absolutely no one"? Be honest. Call a spade a a spade.
I thought amnesty was/is Bush and the Senate's plan.
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet."
Main Entry: am·nes·ty
Pronunciation: 'am-n&-stE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Greek amnEstia forgetfulness, from amnEstos forgotten, from a-
+
mnasthai to remember -- more at MIND
: the act of an authority (as a government) by which pardon is granted to
a
large group of individuals
- amnesty transitive verb
------------------------------------
pardon
Main Entry: 1par·don
Pronunciation: 'pär-d&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French pardun, pardoun, from
parduner
1 : INDULGENCE 1
2 : the excusing of an offense without exacting a penalty
3 a : a release from the legal penalties of an offense b : an official
warrant
of remission of penalty
Since the penalty for illegal immigration is deportation, and under the
proposal, the illegals would be allowed to remain, IT IS AN AMNESTY.
Immigration amnesty bill is costly proposal
http://www.tribune-chronicle.com/Editorials/articles.asp?articleID=8223
When Washington politicos don't want embarrassing facts to make the front
pages, they release them late in the day on a Friday, by which time even
most
of the 24-hour cable reporters have gone home for the weekend.
The release of a Congressional Budget Office assessment of the Senate's
illegal immigration amnesty bill went a step further: Just to be safe, the
CBO
study's sponsors held its release until a Friday night. And no wonder: The
CBO
calculates that the Senate legislation ultimately would grant amnesty to
16
million illegals and cost taxpayers at least $126 billion over the next 10
years.
One of the biggest costs: Some $50 billion in federal benefits that would
accrue to lawbreakers in the form of welfare, Social Security and Medicaid
services - paid for by law-abiding taxpayers.
Apologists for the Senate legislation claim that much of the price tag
would
be incurred anyway if real border-enforcement measures were imposed. But
these
costs amount to only a fraction of the total tab, according to the CBO
report
- less than $10 billion.
Most Americans, polls consistently show, don't want an amnesty program.
They
simply want the U.S. government to adequately enforce our borders and to
welcome those who wish to come here legally to make a better life for
themselves and their families.
The Senate and White House's continued disconnection on this issue is
simply
stunning. Amnesty proponents know by now that theirs is a deeply unpopular
cause. That they would resort to holding the facts at bay until the dark
of a
Friday night speaks volumes about the substance of | | | |
