| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"Black Elk" |
| Date: |
07 Dec 2005 09:36:57 PM |
| Object: |
Sow a neo-fascist seed get a neo-fascist harvest. |
December 07, 2005 edition
Abuse 'widespread' in Iraqi prisons
A US military doctor says US troops intervene when they can, but Iraqis run
the jails.
By Dan Murphy | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
BAGHDAD AND CAIRO - After a US raid on a secret Iraqi government jail last
month revealed some detainees were tortured and abused there, Interior
Minister Bayan Jabr insisted abuse claims were exaggerated and that torture
will not be tolerated in the new Iraq.
US soldiers and some Iraqi officials disagree. They say not only is prisoner
abuse widespread, but that much of it is carried out by Mr. Jabr's
subordinates. Efforts to bring the problem under control during the past
year have largely been frustrated by indifference from senior Iraqi
officials, they say.
Privately, half a dozen US officers have acknowledged to the Monitor that
prisoner abuse by Iraqi police is common.
Now, one officer is speaking out. Major R. John Stukey, a US Army doctor who
served in Baghdad from January to June, frequently visited Interior Ministry
facilities on the east side of Baghdad to assess the health of prisoners. He
says he personally treated about a dozen men who had been tortured and
observed an environment of overcrowding and neglect.
Many more of his patients alleged torture, but in most cases this couldn't
be verified, since he often saw them for the first time months after their
initial arrests and interrogations.
In one east Baghdad facility run by Iraq's Interior Ministry, a few miles
from the secret jail that was raided by US forces on Nov. 13, Major Stukey
says about 220 men were held in filthy conditions in a space so crowded that
many couldn't lie down to sleep.
Stukey visited the facilities with members of the 720th US Military Police
Battalion. The MPs filed frequent reports to their commanders about the
ill-treatment and, Stukey says, did what they could to prevent torture and
improve the prisoners' conditions. They made a point of distributing soap,
toothbrushes, and Korans whenever they visited.
"We did report what we saw, but it was like trying to put out a forest fire
with a bucket of water,'' says Stukey by telephone at Fort Rucker in
Alabama, where he is currently based. "The MPs submitted reports at least
several times a week on detention issues. We knew about it, and we tried to
change it, but it was just one of those things you had to deal with."
Officials from the 720th, now back at its base in Fort Hood, Texas, did not
respond to requests for comment.
Coalition troops, fighting a deadly insurgency, say they don't have the
manpower to compel better behavior from their Iraqi partners, and that to do
so would require them to court frequent conflict with their closest allies
inside the country.
The Bush Administration has sent mixed messages on the subject. Secretary of
State Condoleezza Rice said Monday that the US "does not authorize or
condone torture of detainees." The US has also signed the UN Convention
Against Torture. But administration officials have also argued that the
treaty rules on "cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment do not apply
outside US territory.
The tension over the US position was illustrated at a press conference with
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Joint Chief of Staff Chairman Gen.
Peter Pace on Nov. 29.
When General Pace said, "it's absolutely the responsibility of every US
service member if they see inhumane treatment being conducted to intervene
to stop it." Secretary Rumsfeld interjected, "I don't think you mean they
have an obligation to physically stop it; it's to report it."
To this, General Pace replied: "If they are physically present when inhumane
treatment is taking place, sir, they have an obligation to try to stop it."
Since that exchange, Rumsfeld has ordered military commanders to clarify the
rules for how US troops should respond if they witness abuse of detainees.
Pat Lang, a retired colonel and former head of Middle East Intelligence for
the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency, says it's important for the US
to have a zero-tolerance policy toward torture.
"We know that left to their own devices the Iraqis are going to do these
kinds of things, and there's no chance of stopping it all over the
country,'' he says. "But to me, this is more about us than it is about them.
We can't tolerate this when we see it. I don't want our standards eroded any
further. It's bad for the force; so General Pace's policy statement is very
important."
Human rights groups say that police abuse in Iraq is by now a
well-established pattern: Iraq's police units, many filled with members of
Shiite militias that fought against Saddam Hussein, generally have been left
without oversight. Since many of these men view Iraq's Sunni Arab
population, who were privileged under Mr. Hussein, as their enemies, abuse
is reportedly widespread. When he has visited Baghdad's morgues and the
offices of Sunni political parties, this reporter has been shown dozens of
photographs of men who had been allegedly tortured to death.
Stukey recalls treating one Sunni businessman, about to be released, "who
was beaten so badly that his fingernails had fallen off, some pulled off,
and I felt ashamed to be associated with it."
Stukey says the MPs encountered frequent problems at the Iraqi police Major
Crimes Unit in Adhamiya, a Sunni neighborhood where support for the
insurgency is high. On two occasions, MPs of the 720th intervened to stop
abuse of prisoners that was under way when they were in the building. In one
case on May 3, a prisoner was "being severely tortured, the MPs could hear
the screams,'' says Stukey. They took custody of the man and the equipment
he was being tortured with.
"My understanding was that what trickled back down the US chain of command
was that [the MPs] did the right thing. They weren't dissuaded in any way
from doing this again,'' he says. "But the guidance that trickled down was
that these are Iraqis in control of their own facilities, we've given them
control, and we're not going to take back those facilities. How can a [US
sergeant] take over a government facility from an Iraqi officer?"
In April, he says the 720th MPs also discovered an "off the books" detention
facility in the Adhamiya neighborhood where torture was taking place, and
that the Iraqi police general in charge of the area was fired as a
consequence.
Stukey says from his admittedly narrow view of Baghdad, and from discussions
with soldiers in other areas of Iraq, that abuse of detainees is standard
operating procedure for the Iraqi police. Many senior Iraqi politicians
agree with him.
Iyad Allawi, the former Iraqi prime minister and close US ally, told The
Observer, a British newspaper, last month that "people are doing the same as
[in] Saddam's time and worse." The British are currently investigating
allegations that the Iraqi police tortured two men to death with electric
drills in the southern city of Basra. In Baghdad, this reporter met with
four survivors of police custody who bore injuries consistent with their
alleged torture with electric shocks and other implements.
To date, no Iraqi police officers have been arrested or charged in
connection with the torture discovered by US troops at the jail in November.
Jabr, a former member of the Badr Brigade, an Iranian-trained militia, told
reporters he had personally ordered that the men be held at the secret
facility. He promised swift action when the abuse was uncovered. Last week,
Nouri al-Nouri, the ministry's inspector for human rights was fired. The
Interior Ministry press office, the office of Jabr, and the office of the
prime minister did not return calls seeking comment.
Iraq's prime minister had promised a full report into abuse of detainees in
Iraq by Dec. 1, but the government says the joint US-Iraq investigation is
still ongoing.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1207/p01s02-woiq.html
--
They Knew...
Despite the whitewash, we now know that the Bush administration was warned
before the war that its Iraq claims were weak
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/they_knew_0802/
--
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1435181,00.html
www.iraqbodycount.net
www.costofwar.com
http://icasualties.org/oif/
--
The fair use of a copyrighted work:
In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site
is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest
in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.
For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.
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| User: "Black Elk" |
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| Title: FASCISTS ARE SPINELESS TROLLS >>> Re: LIBERALS ARE GREAT FUN TO LAUGH AT! ==> Sow a neo-fascist seed get a neo-fascist harvest. |
08 Dec 2005 10:43:28 PM |
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"Hitler's concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of
genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United
States history. He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and
for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the
efficiency of America's extermination - by starvation and uneven combat - of
the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity."
P. 202, "Adolph Hitler" by John Toland
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| User: "Werner Hetzner" |
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| Title: Re: Sow a neo-fascist seed get a neo-fascist harvest. |
08 Dec 2005 08:20:48 AM |
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Black Elk wrote:
December 07, 2005 edition
Abuse 'widespread' in Iraqi prisons
A US military doctor says US troops intervene when they can, but Iraqis run
the jails.
...
There is a war going on. Lots of people are being killed just attending
religious observances and going to the market. Concern for prisoners
over civilians seems a little misdirected to me. But if this is so
important to you, Black Elk, why not go over there and help the prisoners?
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| User: "Black Elk" |
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| Title: Re: Sow a neo-fascist seed get a neo-fascist harvest. |
08 Dec 2005 08:08:06 PM |
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"Werner Hetzner" <whetzner@mac.com> wrote in message
news:4398413F.3030703@mac.com...
Black Elk wrote:
December 07, 2005 edition
Abuse 'widespread' in Iraqi prisons
A US military doctor says US troops intervene when they can, but Iraqis
run the jails.
...
There is a war going on.
Thanks to Bush and the neo-fascists who lied us into invading Iraq.
Lots of people are being killed just attending
religious observances and going to the market.
Thanks to Bush and the neo-fascists who lied us into invading Iraq.
Concern for prisoners over civilians seems a little misdirected to me.
Those prisoners in many cases are innocent civilians who are being abused by
Shiites.
But if this is so important to you, Black Elk, why not go over there and
help the prisoners?
It's not my job to clean up your dictator's mess. Bush and you fascists
haven't made the world a better place, you're little different than your
predecessor in Germany during the 40s.
Still defending purveyors of child porn, Werner?
--
They Knew...
Despite the whitewash, we now know that the Bush administration was warned
before the war that its Iraq claims were weak
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/they_knew_0802/
--
A published report says a top al-Qaida operative in U.S. custody gave false
information later used by the Bush administration to support its contention
that Iraq trained al-Qaida militants to use illegal weapons.
The New York Times reports Sunday that newly declassified portions of a
February 2002 Defense Intelligence Agency document says Ibn al-Shaykh
al-Libi misled debriefers in his claims about Iraq's work with al-Qaida
members.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/news/2005/intell-051106-voa01.htm
--
U.S. Report Finds Iraq Was Minimal Weapons Threat in '03
By DOUGLAS JEHL
WASHINGTON, Oct. 6 - Iraq had essentially destroyed its illicit weapons
capability within months after the Persian Gulf War ended in 1991, and its
capacity to produce such weapons had eroded even further by the time of the
American invasion in 2003, the top American inspector in Iraq said in a
report made public today.
http://tinyurl.com/3p3q9
(http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/international/middleeast/0
6CND-INTE.html?hp=&oref=login&pagewanted=print&position=)
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| User: "Werner Hetzner" |
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| Title: Re: Sow a neo-fascist seed get a neo-fascist harvest. |
09 Dec 2005 08:41:45 AM |
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Black Elk wrote:
....
It's not my job to clean up your dictator's mess...
What is your job?
What have you done for The Common Good?
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| User: "Docky Wocky" |
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| Title: Re: Sow a neo-fascist seed get a neo-fascist harvest. |
08 Dec 2005 08:42:23 AM |
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black ikie sez:
"A US military doctor says US troops intervene when they can, but Iraqis run
the jails..."
________________________________
Good news.
So that means when US troops bag some insurgent terrorists in the act, and
they turn them over to the Iraqi government, who jails them, the insurgent
terrorists never surface at the other end of the system. Well, they don't
come out in one piece, anyway.
That is great news.
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| User: "Black Elk" |
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| Title: Re: Sow a neo-fascist seed get a neo-fascist harvest. |
08 Dec 2005 08:13:20 PM |
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"Docky Wocky" <mrchuck@lst.net> wrote in message
news:jDXlf.15083$wF.1297@trnddc08...
black ikie sez:
"A US military doctor says US troops intervene when they can, but Iraqis
run
the jails..."
________________________________
Good news.
So that means when US troops bag some insurgent terrorists in the act, and
they turn them over to the Iraqi government, who jails them, the insurgent
terrorists never surface at the other end of the system. Well, they don't
come out in one piece, anyway.
That is great news.
You rightwingers aren't concerned about justice and stability, you desire
power and control. Iraq is worse off now than when Saddam was in power.
--
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1435181,00.html
www.iraqbodycount.net
www.costofwar.com
http://icasualties.org/oif/
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| User: "Werner Hetzner" |
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| Title: Re: Sow a neo-fascist seed get a neo-fascist harvest. |
09 Dec 2005 08:43:18 AM |
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Black Elk wrote:
...
You rightwingers aren't concerned about justice and stability, you desire
power and control. Iraq is worse off now than when Saddam was in power.
----------
A minority of the population loudly oppose this war with Iraq because it
is not a just war . Iraqis did not attack us on 9/11, so why attack
Iraq? These folks are found in many political camps. Many libertarians
are against this war because they are against foreign intervention. They
subscribe to the concept of Live and let live . I consider myself to be
a libertarian. Still, Im not against this war with Iraq.
My position has nothing to do with justice. Arguably no war is just.
Yet, whenever war is undertaken, both sides will tell you justice
demands it. Those who killed 3000 on 9/11 felt justified to do it. Their
conscience was clear. They had their good reasons. Warring parties
always do. When Palestinians kill Israelis they do it for just reasons.
When Israelis kill Palestinians it is done in the name of justice. Serbs
did not kill Kosovar Albanians for fun. Their cause was just. Likewise,
Kosovar Albanians felt justified in killing Serbs.
Justice, like the Common Good and the Public Interest are flexible and
relative concepts which, like the word is, find meaning in the eye of
the beholder. Those who protest the Iraq war now were silent when we
bombed the Serbs into submission then. Yet the Serbs did not attack us
either. So why was it just to bomb Serb children but not Iraqi children?
The Serbs did not bomb the French or invade the Germans. So why do the
same French and Germans, who even now occupy the Serbs, object to a US
occupation of Iraq? Why did they demand UN approval for our war but shun
that same UN for their war?
Anyone who thinks Saddam Hussein is neutral in the larger Muslim
fundamentalist war against us for our support of Israel must be in
denial. The Arabs have their idea of justice and it differs markedly
from that of the Israelis. No, either we change our foreign policy to
please the Arabs, the Israelis, or ourselves. That is what this conflict
is about. It is not about oil. It is not about justice. It is all about
our support of Israeli interests at the expense of Arab interests.
Live and let live does not seem to be universally accepted. Someone is
trying to kill us. Decide on your interests, not those of either the
Israelis or the Arabs. Whose interest are you willing to kill or die for?
--------
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