| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"ArKLyte_" |
| Date: |
20 May 2004 01:32:58 AM |
| Object: |
We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/ddaniel/2004/dd_0519.shtml
We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That?
By Debbie Daniel
May 19, 2004
We're better than that . . . we have a higher standard of behavior . .
.. we treat people differently because we're Americans? Is this what
I'm hearing?
Who in the world are we fooling? I agree we are better than that, but
I'm here to tell you, if we don't get the same mind set these killers
have, it's over.
You have to meet the enemy where he is. You have to get inside his
mind; to think like he does or you can't win.
It wasn't like us to drop the atom bomb on Hiroshima, but we had to.
It's not like us to use certain tactics to get information, but we
have to.
These are not refined people with manners, who will sign papers and
say they will treat our prisoners humanely.
Our President couldn't have said it any plainer; we're dealing with
the "Axis of Evil" . . . in other words - Satan himself.
Some people have been upset that some of the Iraqi prisoners were
mistreated. We're at war . . . it doesn't bother me that they may have
been stripped naked and had cold water thrown on them.
If they're not willing to give us information, do you think we should
have them over for a steak dinner to see what questions they will
answer? My question is: How cold is the water?
We took 120,000 Japanese Americans - two thirds were citizens of the
United States - and locked them up during World War II. We put them
inside barbed-wire fencing; we didn't strip them of their clothes - we
stripped them of their dignity; took them from their homes; caused
many to lose their businesses, because we could not take a chance that
any one of them might hurt us. None did, but we still couldn't take
that chance . . . we were at war.
Emotions were high; we had just been hit like never before, but now
we've been hit worse, and we're afraid of humiliating the prisoners?
We're supposed to be shown more photos of this humiliation, and yet
I've been "denied," or should I say "protected," from seeing: Daniel
Pearl decapitated; four American construction workers burned alive;
Nick Berg's head sawed off with a dull blade and placed in the pit of
his back; hundreds of people jumping from towers to escape the terror
of fire - only to be met with a horrible death, and the media wants to
show us a female soldier standing over an Iraqi prisoner with a
cigarette in her mouth "acting" like she's going to make him a eunuch?
Yes, that's humiliating . . . and it's especially humiliating for an
Iraqi prisoner who does not have much use for a woman anyway. Women
are so worthless to these men that I'm sure they would have rather
been shot than submit to this "degradation" rendered by a female.
Trust me, this is not my "cup of tea," but we're all soldiers now . .
.. there's a war out there and we better be prepared to fight it.
Sometimes you've just "got to do what you've got to do."
I'm learning that humiliation to these Middle Eastern men is the worst
kind of abuse. But I also understand that important information was
extracted because these tactics were used.
Our media wants the world to know how terribly we mistreated these
prisoners. Why don't they show us pictures of how badly we've been
mistreated?
Let's start with the World Trade Center. I don't care how gruesome it
is, I need to see the horror of people forced to jump to their deaths.
I don't care how graphic it is, I need to see Daniel Pearl beheaded,
and I don't care that I should be protected from seeing Nick Berg's
head "sawed off," I need to get mad again . . . real mad.
I'm tired of being lulled into news stories of how many people are
without jobs; of how many polls were taken today, and why people don't
like George Bush.
Who cares about any of this if we're all dead?
There is only one "story" on the minds of our enemy . . . kill
Americans at all costs.
Why am I not "able" to see these pictures? Why is it I can only see
what our soldiers are doing wrong? I don't condone rapes in these
prisons; I don't condone killing people for no reason; but we're at
war, and unless we walk in our soldiers' shoes . . . we have no idea
what precipitated any of this.
So, I'm forced to make a judgment by only what the media allows me to
see? Is that how it is?
Pictures are powerful weapons, and the media is using them against us,
to crystallize in our minds, the scenes of how "cruel" we are.
Is my impression of this war to be formed by what six or seven misled
soldiers did? Maybe it's rampant, I don't know. Just show me
everything; don't pick and choose to spare me pain.
But, you know what's so ironic about all this? Americans pay hard
earned money to go to movies to see thrillers of people being
bludgeoned to death
.. . . throats slit . . . eyes gouged out, and we do that in the name
of good entertainment. We don't think a thing about it.
But don't show us this? Because we can't handle it?
We even try to reproduce "reality" situations for our viewers on
television so they can get an idea of the "real thing."
Well, what more reality is there than to see a real live American
citizen have his head sawed off? I don't think we need to be
entertained, but I do think we need to be educated.
This is real. Let me decide.
They protest when we've seen a single picture of a coffin; a young
woman loses her job for taking a photo of several flag-draped coffins.
C'mon people, I'm a big girl . . . Show me the pictures!!
It's not something I've longed to see, but this is what the enemy is
counting on . . . that we Americans won't have the stomach for this
kind of violence, and we'll call the whole war off.
I have wrestled with this for several days, because in my heart, I
don't want to see another human being brutalized, nor do I want it
held from me because I'm not strong enough to handle it.
Yes, it's easier to turn my head and deny this is happening, but I
need to be confronted with the reality of this war . . . I do not want
to become complacent . . . I need to be reminded every single day of
the price we pay for freedom. Show me the pictures!
The media needs to stop acting like the "Emotion Police."
They don't want people to get worked up over this . . . they just show
images that make us feel guilt and shame.
No! Shame on the media. I'm furious that they do not allow me to make
an adult assessment of what's going on.
So yes, I expect Americans to act exactly like this, because we're at
war . . . and that makes all the difference.
-------------
Debbie Daniel can be contacted at:
--
* See the REAL 'Religion of Peace', Islam, on this site - EXCELLENT
* http://www.mathematik.net/homepage/islam/islam.htm
* Translated: http://tinyurl.com/2ooqh
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| User: "RoyDMercer" |
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| Title: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
20 May 2004 09:44:41 AM |
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"ArKLyte_" <ArkLyte_@Now.Net> wrote in message
news:tekoa0hqq6gn1028mn4lfa5skm86nqiga0@4ax.com...
http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/ddaniel/2004/dd_0519.shtml
We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That?
By Debbie Daniel
May 19, 2004
Interesting article that raises a few good points, but it also shows the far
right's warped mindset.
When you lower yourself to the barbarous tactics of your enemy, in the end
you are no better than your enemy. The article also tries to justify the
internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII, by saying "we were at war".
The only problem is it ignores the fact that German-Americans and
Italian-Americans were not interned and there were plenty of acts of
sabotage carried out by both of those groups. The internment of
Japanese-Americans was done for the same reasons Hitler persecuted the Jews.
It was bigotry pure and simple, which is something the far right embraces.
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| User: "Phaedrine" |
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| Title: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
20 May 2004 10:39:15 AM |
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In article <10aph2oni5n1k60@corp.supernews.com>,
"RoyDMercer" <pondscum_31NOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
"ArKLyte_" <ArkLyte_@Now.Net> wrote in message
news:tekoa0hqq6gn1028mn4lfa5skm86nqiga0@4ax.com...
http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/ddaniel/2004/dd_0519.shtml
We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That?
By Debbie Daniel
May 19, 2004
Interesting article that raises a few good points, but it also shows the far
right's warped mindset.
When you lower yourself to the barbarous tactics of your enemy, in the end
you are no better than your enemy.
A trite cliche. How do you propose to win a war? Wine and dine the
enemy? Turn over your wife and children as slaves? Until you can
propose a realistic alternative to war and all its tactics, then all
your preaching serves little more than to stroke your own ego. IOW, put
up or shut up.
Personally, I did not care for the author's ceaseless nattering because
she obviously lacks comprehension depth. But I do believe that
meaningful consequences must be found for each threatening enemy--- and
it will be different for each one. Sometimes, not always, those
consequences will be absolutely ruthless relative to the mores of
western culture. If you want to take the position that defensive
tactics are the only ones permissible, then I think it would be of value
for you to find a successful, flourishing and growing society that
embraces that philosophy without depending on others for their defense.
Good luck in so doing because such cultures become extinct by attrition.
Or do you believe that even defense is--- how did you put it--- lowering
yourself to the barbarian tactics of your enemy?
......The article also tries to justify the
internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII, by saying "we were at war".
The only problem is it ignores the fact that German-Americans and
Italian-Americans were not interned and there were plenty of acts of
sabotage carried out by both of those groups. The internment of
Japanese-Americans was done for the same reasons Hitler persecuted the Jews.
It was bigotry pure and simple, which is something the far right embraces.
.
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| User: "RoyDMercer" |
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| Title: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
20 May 2004 11:43:03 AM |
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"Phaedrine" <Phaedrine_Stonebridge@spamenot.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Phaedrine_Stonebridge-6ABB07.10391520052004@news-60.giganews.com...
In article <10aph2oni5n1k60@corp.supernews.com>,
When you lower yourself to the barbarous tactics of your enemy, in the
end
you are no better than your enemy.
A trite cliche. How do you propose to win a war? Wine and dine the
enemy? Turn over your wife and children as slaves? Until you can
propose a realistic alternative to war and all its tactics, then all
your preaching serves little more than to stroke your own ego. IOW, put
up or shut up.
I didn't propose to start the war in the first place, so I'm certainly not
going to offer proposals on how to win it. The time to "put up" was when
Iraq first ejected the UN weapons inspectors. This opportunity was long
gone by the time Bush went in.
Personally, I did not care for the author's ceaseless nattering because
she obviously lacks comprehension depth. But I do believe that
meaningful consequences must be found for each threatening enemy--- and
it will be different for each one. Sometimes, not always, those
consequences will be absolutely ruthless relative to the mores of
western culture. If you want to take the position that defensive
tactics are the only ones permissible, then I think it would be of value
for you to find a successful, flourishing and growing society that
embraces that philosophy without depending on others for their defense.
Good luck in so doing because such cultures become extinct by attrition.
Or do you believe that even defense is--- how did you put it--- lowering
yourself to the barbarian tactics of your enemy?
You are trying to put words in my mouth that were never there. I didn't
take the position that "defensive tactics are the only ones permissible". I
never had a problem with going into Afghanistan.
I'm not saying we shouldn't be using agressive tactics to extract
intelligence from prisoners. The OP's article tried to say we should be
using the enemies own tactics against them as if to say we should be cutting
off their heads and tying their corpses to bridges. If you can't see as
how this is not what we should be doing, then I have nothing more to say to
you on the subject.
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| User: "Phaedrine" |
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| Title: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
20 May 2004 03:03:51 PM |
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In article <10apo0n11rks221@corp.supernews.com>,
"RoyDMercer" <pondscum_31NOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Phaedrine" <Phaedrine_Stonebridge@spamenot.yahoo.com> wrote in
news:Phaedrine_Stonebridge-6ABB07.10391520052004@news-60.giganews.com.
I'm not saying we shouldn't be using agressive tactics to extract
intelligence from prisoners. The OP's article tried to say we should
be using the enemies own tactics against them as if to say we should
be cutting off their heads and tying their corpses to bridges. If
you can't see as how this is not what we should be doing, then I have
nothing more to say to you on the subject.
I agree there is no need for that and I am sorry I came at you so hard.
I misunderstood your intent and now I understand you were merely
responding to her _suggestion_ that we become barbarians and not that
you think we are there already. I think that consequences must be
tailored for the situation and that there should be a continuum. IOW,
if you steal my rosebush in a justice vacuum for instance, it would be
wrong to just shoot you. I should ask you to give it back and maybe
give you a sound tongue-lashing first. ;)
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| User: "RoyDMercer" |
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| Title: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
20 May 2004 04:56:46 PM |
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"Phaedrine" <Phaedrine_Stonebridge@spamenot.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Phaedrine_Stonebridge-FC7463.15035120052004@news-60.giganews.com...
In article <10apo0n11rks221@corp.supernews.com>,
"RoyDMercer" <pondscum_31NOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm not saying we shouldn't be using agressive tactics to extract
intelligence from prisoners. The OP's article tried to say we should
be using the enemies own tactics against them as if to say we should
be cutting off their heads and tying their corpses to bridges. If
you can't see as how this is not what we should be doing, then I have
nothing more to say to you on the subject.
I agree there is no need for that and I am sorry I came at you so hard.
I misunderstood your intent and now I understand you were merely
responding to her _suggestion_ that we become barbarians and not that
you think we are there already. I think that consequences must be
tailored for the situation and that there should be a continuum. IOW,
if you steal my rosebush in a justice vacuum for instance, it would be
wrong to just shoot you. I should ask you to give it back and maybe
give you a sound tongue-lashing first. ;)
That's a good analogy. There is also the fact that even in war there are
laws. I'm satisfied that when those laws are broken, the US is taking the
appropriate steps to hold the responsible parties accountable. However I
will be very disappointed if someone very high up in the chain doesn't go
down on this one. I spent some time in the military myself, and one thing I
learned was you learn from your mistakes and you hold people accountable at
all levels. Just because Rumsfield, or Wolfowitz didn't directly order
troops to violate the conventions of war, doesn't mean they shouldn't be
held responsible. When you have illegal actions that should never have
happened and you try to justify it, or minimize it, you only give fodder to
your critics.
The original article was pretty offensive to me, because not only was the
author implying it is OK to violate the conventions of war, but the only way
we can win is to resort to the tactics of our enemy. It's also pretty
offensive that this rhetoric is posted on the front page of a site that
pretends to represent the GOP.
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| User: "RoyDMercer" |
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| Title: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
21 May 2004 12:52:08 PM |
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"soft-eng" <softeng3456@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:9fa75d42.0405210435.1615a06@posting.google.com...
Phaedrine <Phaedrine_Stonebridge@spamenot.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<Phaedrine_Stonebridge-6ABB07.10391520052004@news-60.giganews.com>...
A trite cliche. How do you propose to win a war? Wine and dine the
What's wrong with tanks, rifles, airplanes, satellite cameras? How
exactly are torture and rape winning the Iraq war? There is not one
single piece of evidence that torture, rape and murder have produced
reliable information that was used to prevent something or
the other. But there is much evidence that such things
produce more terrorists.
Of course, you appear to be the type that delights in oppressing
others. There are also lots of that type amongs the Muslims. And
you are right that your type is probably not best suited
to wining and dining.
The best solution would be to take all of you from the US,
take all of the same hater types from the Arab worlds, and
put you all on an island where you can vent your hatred upon
each other, as required by the gods created for you.
Why involve the rest of us humans in your hatreds?
It would have to be a big fucking island. How about Greenland? It
shouldn't be that expensive to buy the Danes and Inuits out.
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| User: "Phaedrine" |
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| Title: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
21 May 2004 01:03:35 PM |
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In article <9fa75d42.0405210435.1615a06@posting.google.com>,
(soft-eng) wrote:
Phaedrine <Phaedrine_Stonebridge@spamenot.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<Phaedrine_Stonebridge-6ABB07.10391520052004@news-60.giganews.com>...
A trite cliche. How do you propose to win a war? Wine and dine the
What's wrong with tanks, rifles, airplanes, satellite cameras? How
exactly are torture and rape winning the Iraq war?
I never said they were so buzz off.
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| User: "David Baumgarner" |
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| Title: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
20 May 2004 05:22:46 AM |
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ArKLyte_ wrote:
It wasn't like us to drop the atom bomb on Hiroshima, but we had to.
This was a war crime buddy. It was not prosecuted because we were the
victors. Our fearless leaders were defining law and justice on the fly.
Some Germans were tried and convicted of "Waging agressive war" and
executed. What we are doing today is identical to what they were doing
them.
We took 120,000 Japanese Americans - two thirds were citizens of the
United States - and locked them up during World War II. We put them
inside barbed-wire fencing; we didn't strip them of their clothes - we
stripped them of their dignity; took them from their homes; caused
many to lose their businesses, because we could not take a chance that
any one of them might hurt us. None did, but we still couldn't take
that chance . . . we were at war.
Even the most ardent flag wavers do not support this atrocity anymore. It's
a massively poor exanple to prove any point.
Trust me, this is not my "cup of tea," but we're all soldiers now . .
. there's a war out there and we better be prepared to fight it.
Sometimes you've just "got to do what you've got to do."
We should strip you naked and drop you on main street in Tikrit. Then you
can tell us all about your Rambo exploits. Sheesh, what a waste of soft
tissue......
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| User: "XpatriotgamesX" |
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| Title: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
20 May 2004 08:05:34 AM |
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Subject: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent!
From: David Baumgarner
Date: 5/20/2004 3:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <iq0rc.8908$YB6.5088@bignews3.bellsouth.net>
ArKLyte_ wrote:
It wasn't like us to drop the atom bomb on Hiroshima, but we had to.
This was a war crime buddy. It was not prosecuted because we were the
victors. Our fearless leaders were defining law and justice on the fly.
Some Germans were tried and convicted of "Waging agressive war" and
executed.
So you would like it to be a crime to wage aggressive defense? What a dork.
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| User: "Comicboards.org" |
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| Title: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
21 May 2004 02:14:35 PM |
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ArKLyte_ wrote:
http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/ddaniel/2004/dd_0519.shtml
We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That?
By Debbie Daniel
May 19, 2004
We're better than that . . . we have a higher standard of behavior . .
. we treat people differently because we're Americans? Is this what
I'm hearing?
Who in the world are we fooling? I agree we are better than that, but
I'm here to tell you, if we don't get the same mind set these killers
have, it's over.
Hardly.
--
Discuss Politics, reality shows, Race Relations, Gay Rights and Marvel
or DC characters.
http://www.comicboards.org/race
http://www.comicboards.org/gays
http://www.comicboards.org/thor
http://www.comicboards.org/surfer
http://www.comicboards.org/strange
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| User: "Fair & Balanced Trebor ©" |
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| Title: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
20 May 2004 12:22:36 PM |
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On Thu, 20 May 2004 06:32:58 GMT, ArKLyte_ <ArkLyte_@Now.Net> wrote:
It's not like us to use certain tactics to get information, but we
have to.
Typical rationalization of a scumball in denial.
Certainly it is like some Americans to stoop to criminal methods in
order to feed their own lust for power. The only question is: are
those Americans going to continue to run this country? That's the only
question that needs answering.
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| User: "Bert" |
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| Title: Re: We Don't Expect Americans To Act Like That? - Excellent! |
20 May 2004 07:11:12 AM |
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Those pictures and videos are on many websites....but you won't find them on
USA Today of course....who owns the press
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