| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
20 Nov 2003 06:50:12 AM |
| Object: |
What anti-Semitism isn't |
What anti-Semitism isn't
______________________________________________________________________
The phrase "Anti-Semitism" cannot be used to describe any of these things :
[1]
Criticizing the policies of the Israeli government.
[2]
Criticizing Zionism.
[3]
Criticizing Jewish-American politicians.
[4]
Criticizing American foreign policy.
______________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Leigh_Bee" |
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| Title: Re: What anti-Semitism isn't |
21 Nov 2003 04:35:12 AM |
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wrote in message news:<1odprvou4n7bforrkrh9s25rkv5cdpiccj@4ax.com>...
What anti-Semitism isn't
______________________________________________________________________
The phrase "Anti-Semitism" cannot be used to describe any of these things :
[1]
Criticizing the policies of the Israeli government.
[2]
Criticizing Zionism.
[3]
Criticizing Jewish-American politicians.
[4]
Criticizing American foreign policy.
______________________________________________________________________
Given that semite basically means desert dweller, amusing to use to it
"bash Jews" however in the world of Dog Whistlers that is a sharp
note.
Don't Jews live anywhere else but Israel and the US?
LB
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| User: "Anon Ymous" |
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| Title: Re: What anti-Semitism isn't |
20 Nov 2003 01:58:24 PM |
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wrote in message news:<1odprvou4n7bforrkrh9s25rkv5cdpiccj@4ax.com>...
What anti-Semitism isn't
______________________________________________________________________
The phrase "Anti-Semitism" cannot be used to describe any of these things :
[1]
Criticizing the policies of the Israeli government.
[2]
Criticizing Zionism.
[3]
Criticizing Jewish-American politicians.
[4]
Criticizing American foreign policy.
However, if a person shows signs of all of the above criticisms, it's
a safe bet s/he is anti-semitic, and has a less rational approach
towards all things Jewish than s/he likes to pretend.
S~
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| User: "tw" |
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| Title: Re: What anti-Semitism isn't |
21 Nov 2003 08:53:01 AM |
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"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0311201158.6675a75d@posting.google.com...
grub@internet.charitydays.co.uk wrote in message
news:<1odprvou4n7bforrkrh9s25rkv5cdpiccj@4ax.com>...
What anti-Semitism isn't
______________________________________________________________________
The phrase "Anti-Semitism" cannot be used to describe any of these
things :
[1]
Criticizing the policies of the Israeli government.
[2]
Criticizing Zionism.
[3]
Criticizing Jewish-American politicians.
[4]
Criticizing American foreign policy.
However, if a person shows signs of all of the above criticisms, it's
a safe bet s/he is anti-semitic,
Nonsense, the 4th criticism has nothing to do with Israeli citizens or Jews,
and criticising a government is not the same as criticising the race or
religion of any of its citizens. No one gets accused of racism for e.g.
questioning policies of the Finnish government. Those with functioning
brains (e.g. not Jean Guernon) see that criticising Israel isn't
anti-semitism as by no means all Jews live in Israel and by no means all
Israelis are Jewish.
Singling out Jewish/American politicians for criticism just because they are
Jewish is of course anti-semitic, criticising politicans (who happen to be
Jewish) for their policies is another thing altogether.
As for zionism, it depends on your definition - if zionism just means the
existence of an Israeli state, then there isn't much to criticise. If,
however, it means the existence of Israel within some borders arbitrarily
plucked from a 3000 year old book of stories from wandering desert tribes
which involves annexing land from neighbouring internationally recognised
countries, then zioninsm deserves condemnation. The bible is hardly a tool
for settling territorial issues in the 21st century (or any century for that
matter).
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| User: "Anon Ymous" |
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| Title: Re: What anti-Semitism isn't |
22 Nov 2003 02:12:30 PM |
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"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:<bpl8r4$mjo$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0311201158.6675a75d@posting.google.com...
grub@internet.charitydays.co.uk wrote in message
news:<1odprvou4n7bforrkrh9s25rkv5cdpiccj@4ax.com>...
What anti-Semitism isn't
______________________________________________________________________
The phrase "Anti-Semitism" cannot be used to describe any of these
things :
[1]
Criticizing the policies of the Israeli government.
[2]
Criticizing Zionism.
[3]
Criticizing Jewish-American politicians.
[4]
Criticizing American foreign policy.
However, if a person shows signs of all of the above criticisms, it's
a safe bet s/he is anti-semitic,
Nonsense, the 4th criticism has nothing to do with Israeli citizens or Jews,
and criticising a government is not the same as criticising the race or
religion of any of its citizens. No one gets accused of racism for e.g.
questioning policies of the Finnish government.
I think you missed my point. All four, not any of the four. I don't
accuse anyone who criticizes the U.S. foreign policy of being
anti-semitic. But, more than likely, anyone who uses all four of
those criticisms has an anti-Jewish bone or two in hir body. The 4th
criticsm only makes it more clear as the "foreign policy" likely has
to do with support of Israel.
<snipped something no one is arguing against>
As for zionism, it depends on your definition - if zionism just means the
existence of an Israeli state, then there isn't much to criticise. If,
however, it means the existence of Israel within some borders arbitrarily
plucked from a 3000 year old book of stories from wandering desert tribes
which involves annexing land from neighbouring internationally recognised
countries, then zioninsm deserves condemnation. The bible is hardly a tool
for settling territorial issues in the 21st century (or any century for that
matter).
I only disagree here in that I think the crux of the problem with the
creation of Israel had to do with the forced and racist nature of its
creation--not necessarily its biblical origins (other than the
original choice of location). In fact, the screwy nature of the U.N.
borders which didnt conform to biblical borders led to a good bit more
danger for the young nation than was necessary.
I think the desire behind the foundation of Israel (to create a
homeland for homeless, tortured, persecuted Jews after the holocaust)
was well intentioned.
But, to force a race/creed who we considered...less important? less
human? out of its land/homes in the creation of Israel was incredibly
stupid (not to mention flat wrong by today's standards), and is the
primary reason for the big mess on the west bank of the Jordan river
today.
Unfortunately, since the creation of Israel, Arabs view the Jews and
Israel itself as the problem. They use Zionism to lump together those
who, by force, created the new nation with those who believe the Jews
should have a place they can live in peace. Certainly, some of those
involved with Israel's creation had a religiously skewed view of the
world, but that doesn't mean that anyone who, given current
conditions, supports the existance of Israel is a zionist. I feel
confident that we here in the states are nowhere near as religious as
we were 50 years ago, and that most of us view the Palestinian
situation from a practical rather than religious perspective.
S~
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| User: "steve horan" |
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| Title: Re: What anti-Semitism isn't |
20 Nov 2003 04:58:07 PM |
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(Anon Ymous) wrote in message news:<5c2e70b2.0311201158.6675a75d@posting.google.com>...
grub@internet.charitydays.co.uk wrote in message news:<1odprvou4n7bforrkrh9s25rkv5cdpiccj@4ax.com>...
What anti-Semitism isn't
______________________________________________________________________
The phrase "Anti-Semitism" cannot be used to describe any of these things :
[1]
Criticizing the policies of the Israeli government.
[2]
Criticizing Zionism.
[3]
Criticizing Jewish-American politicians.
[4]
Criticizing American foreign policy.
However, if a person shows signs of all of the above criticisms, it's
a safe bet s/he is anti-semitic, and has a less rational approach
towards all things Jewish than s/he likes to pretend.
S~
I think it has to do with generalizing. If you
were to criticize Jews or Israelis or Zionists in
general that would be anti-Semitic. Also, to use
a generalized stereotype against a specific Jew
is anti-Semitic. Or to associate a specific Jew
with the general Jewish population in a disparaging
way. A recent example would be the poster at GOPUSA.com
who referred to George Soros as a descendent of
Shylock - this is about as subtle as a brick
through a window.
Old school anti-Semites are conservative while
there's a new wave of left-wing anti-Semites who
blame Israel and the US support for Israel for
all the problems in the Middle East. But the
post at GOPUSA suggests right-wing anti-Semitism
may not be dead so much as dormant. Also, while
Bill O'Reilly never says anything overtly anti-
Semiitic, I suspect he's a latent anti-Semite
as he seems to have raw hostility towards many
Jews (eg Al Franken).
.
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: What anti-Semitism isn't |
20 Nov 2003 09:15:30 PM |
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(steve horan) wrote in message news:<6b178197.0311201458.32267736@posting.google.com>...
shastaman@my-deja.com (Anon Ymous) wrote in message news:<5c2e70b2.0311201158.6675a75d@posting.google.com>...
grub@internet.charitydays.co.uk wrote in message news:<1odprvou4n7bforrkrh9s25rkv5cdpiccj@4ax.com>...
What anti-Semitism isn't
______________________________________________________________________
The phrase "Anti-Semitism" cannot be used to describe any of these things :
[1]
Criticizing the policies of the Israeli government.
[2]
Criticizing Zionism.
[3]
Criticizing Jewish-American politicians.
[4]
Criticizing American foreign policy.
However, if a person shows signs of all of the above criticisms, it's
a safe bet s/he is anti-semitic, and has a less rational approach
towards all things Jewish than s/he likes to pretend.
S~
I think it has to do with generalizing. If you
were to criticize Jews or Israelis or Zionists in
general that would be anti-Semitic. Also, to use
a generalized stereotype against a specific Jew
is anti-Semitic. Or to associate a specific Jew
with the general Jewish population in a disparaging
way. A recent example would be the poster at GOPUSA.com
who referred to George Soros as a descendent of
Shylock - this is about as subtle as a brick
through a window.
Old school anti-Semites are conservative while
there's a new wave of left-wing anti-Semites who
blame Israel and the US support for Israel for
all the problems in the Middle East. But the
post at GOPUSA suggests right-wing anti-Semitism
may not be dead so much as dormant. Also, while
Bill O'Reilly never says anything overtly anti-
Semiitic, I suspect he's a latent anti-Semite
as he seems to have raw hostility towards many
Jews (eg Al Franken).
The dirty Jew Bastards even bulldoze up the farmland. Dozens of
Palestinians, awakened by the barrage, fled the four-hour assault and
returned hours later, after first light, to find their homes flattened and
the dirty Jew Bastards gone.
Jesus in the Talmud as Written by Jews..
The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other "sins" of "Jesus the
Nazarene":
1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews
astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers
for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).
2) He was "sexually immoral", worshipped statues of stone (a brick is
mentioned),was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to
repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).
3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used
procedures that involved cutting his flesh — which is also explicitly
banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).
Jesus in the Talmud as Written by Jews..
The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other "sins" of "Jesus the
Nazarene":
1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews
astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers
for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).
2) He was "sexually immoral", worshipped statues of stone (a brick is
mentioned),was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to
repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).
3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used
procedures that involved cutting his flesh — which is also explicitly
banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).
.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: What anti-Semitism isn't |
21 Nov 2003 09:38:56 PM |
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In article <75de7f5f.0311201915.409d0062@posting.google.com>, (Jack) wrote:
stevehoran2001@yahoo.com (steve horan) wrote in message
news:<6b178197.0311201458.32267736@posting.google.com>...
shastaman@my-deja.com (Anon Ymous) wrote in message
news:<5c2e70b2.0311201158.6675a75d@posting.google.com>...
grub@internet.charitydays.co.uk wrote in message
news:<1odprvou4n7bforrkrh9s25rkv5cdpiccj@4ax.com>...
What anti-Semitism isn't
______________________________________________________________________
The phrase "Anti-Semitism" cannot be used to describe any of these things
:
[1]
Criticizing the policies of the Israeli government.
[2]
Criticizing Zionism.
[3]
Criticizing Jewish-American politicians.
[4]
Criticizing American foreign policy.
However, if a person shows signs of all of the above criticisms, it's
a safe bet s/he is anti-semitic, and has a less rational approach
towards all things Jewish than s/he likes to pretend.
S~
I think it has to do with generalizing. If you
were to criticize Jews or Israelis or Zionists in
general that would be anti-Semitic. Also, to use
a generalized stereotype against a specific Jew
is anti-Semitic. Or to associate a specific Jew
with the general Jewish population in a disparaging
way. A recent example would be the poster at GOPUSA.com
who referred to George Soros as a descendent of
Shylock - this is about as subtle as a brick
through a window.
Old school anti-Semites are conservative while
there's a new wave of left-wing anti-Semites who
blame Israel and the US support for Israel for
all the problems in the Middle East. But the
post at GOPUSA suggests right-wing anti-Semitism
may not be dead so much as dormant. Also, while
Bill O'Reilly never says anything overtly anti-
Semiitic, I suspect he's a latent anti-Semite
as he seems to have raw hostility towards many
Jews (eg Al Franken).
The dirty Jew Bastards even bulldoze up the farmland.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The really diehard,
fundamental Jews, the Hassidim, are pacifists. You are confusing the Israeli
government with everything else - they are *not* the same at all!
Woods
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: What anti-Semitism isn't |
20 Nov 2003 07:17:47 PM |
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In article <6b178197.0311201458.32267736@posting.google.com>, (steve horan) wrote:
shastaman@my-deja.com (Anon Ymous) wrote in message
news:<5c2e70b2.0311201158.6675a75d@posting.google.com>...
grub@internet.charitydays.co.uk wrote in message
news:<1odprvou4n7bforrkrh9s25rkv5cdpiccj@4ax.com>...
What anti-Semitism isn't
______________________________________________________________________
The phrase "Anti-Semitism" cannot be used to describe any of these things
:
[1]
Criticizing the policies of the Israeli government.
[2]
Criticizing Zionism.
[3]
Criticizing Jewish-American politicians.
[4]
Criticizing American foreign policy.
However, if a person shows signs of all of the above criticisms, it's
a safe bet s/he is anti-semitic, and has a less rational approach
towards all things Jewish than s/he likes to pretend.
S~
I think it has to do with generalizing. If you
were to criticize Jews or Israelis or Zionists in
general that would be anti-Semitic. Also, to use
a generalized stereotype against a specific Jew
is anti-Semitic. Or to associate a specific Jew
with the general Jewish population in a disparaging
way. A recent example would be the poster at GOPUSA.com
who referred to George Soros as a descendent of
Shylock - this is about as subtle as a brick
through a window.
Who the heck are George Soros and Shylock?!?
Wood
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| User: "tw" |
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| Title: Re: What anti-Semitism isn't |
21 Nov 2003 08:58:18 AM |
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"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:%Idvb.82887$1N3.19754@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <6b178197.0311201458.32267736@posting.google.com>,
stevehoran2001@yahoo.com (steve horan) wrote:
shastaman@my-deja.com (Anon Ymous) wrote in message
news:<5c2e70b2.0311201158.6675a75d@posting.google.com>...
grub@internet.charitydays.co.uk wrote in message
news:<1odprvou4n7bforrkrh9s25rkv5cdpiccj@4ax.com>...
What anti-Semitism isn't
______________________________________________________________________
The phrase "Anti-Semitism" cannot be used to describe any of these
things
:
[1]
Criticizing the policies of the Israeli government.
[2]
Criticizing Zionism.
[3]
Criticizing Jewish-American politicians.
[4]
Criticizing American foreign policy.
However, if a person shows signs of all of the above criticisms, it's
a safe bet s/he is anti-semitic, and has a less rational approach
towards all things Jewish than s/he likes to pretend.
S~
I think it has to do with generalizing. If you
were to criticize Jews or Israelis or Zionists in
general that would be anti-Semitic. Also, to use
a generalized stereotype against a specific Jew
is anti-Semitic. Or to associate a specific Jew
with the general Jewish population in a disparaging
way. A recent example would be the poster at GOPUSA.com
who referred to George Soros as a descendent of
Shylock - this is about as subtle as a brick
through a window.
Who the heck are George Soros and Shylock?!?
Shylock was a villain ( a stereotyped Jewish money lender) in a play called
"The Merchant of Venice" by some obscure 16th century English playwright by
the name of William something or other. Wavelance? Oscillatejavelin? It's on
the tip of my tongue..
Don't they teach you chaps anything at school in America? ;-)
.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: What anti-Semitism isn't |
21 Nov 2003 09:36:51 PM |
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In article <bpl952$mpt$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>, "tw" <no@no.com> wrote:
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:%Idvb.82887$1N3.19754@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <6b178197.0311201458.32267736@posting.google.com>,
stevehoran2001@yahoo.com (steve horan) wrote:
shastaman@my-deja.com (Anon Ymous) wrote in message
news:<5c2e70b2.0311201158.6675a75d@posting.google.com>...
grub@internet.charitydays.co.uk wrote in message
news:<1odprvou4n7bforrkrh9s25rkv5cdpiccj@4ax.com>...
What anti-Semitism isn't
______________________________________________________________________
The phrase "Anti-Semitism" cannot be used to describe any of these
things
:
[1]
Criticizing the policies of the Israeli government.
[2]
Criticizing Zionism.
[3]
Criticizing Jewish-American politicians.
[4]
Criticizing American foreign policy.
However, if a person shows signs of all of the above criticisms, it's
a safe bet s/he is anti-semitic, and has a less rational approach
towards all things Jewish than s/he likes to pretend.
S~
I think it has to do with generalizing. If you
were to criticize Jews or Israelis or Zionists in
general that would be anti-Semitic. Also, to use
a generalized stereotype against a specific Jew
is anti-Semitic. Or to associate a specific Jew
with the general Jewish population in a disparaging
way. A recent example would be the poster at GOPUSA.com
who referred to George Soros as a descendent of
Shylock - this is about as subtle as a brick
through a window.
Who the heck are George Soros and Shylock?!?
Shylock was a villain ( a stereotyped Jewish money lender) in a play called
"The Merchant of Venice" by some obscure 16th century English playwright by
the name of William something or other. Wavelance? Oscillatejavelin? It's on
the tip of my tongue..
Oh, was that his name? Didn't know the name, and didn't realize he was Jewish.
Don't they teach you chaps anything at school in America? ;-)
Yes, but most of us snooze/yawn/grimace through Shakespeare. I actually paid
attention, but I've never been at all good at people's names (forget entirely
about fictional characters, with very few exceptions - I have enough trouble
with real people)!
Woods
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