What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality



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Topic: Politics > Politics-USA
User: "michael meier"
Date: 20 Jan 2004 09:48:03 AM
Object: What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality
And another interesting article from the International Herald Tribune
on transatlanticism.
http://www.iht.com/articles/125649.html
What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality

PARIS This is the second of two articles
..
Barely a week ago, Peter Struck, the German defense minister, told a
political forum in Berlin that Europe must become a world political
actor with a determining role, ready for "wide-ranging preventative
engagement." That required greater military capabilities, he said.
..
In the next days, the Defense Ministry said it would cut E26 billion,
or $32 billion, from previously budgeted programs to allow Germany's
military to fashion itself a kind of global reach. At the least, this
looked like a difficult ambition since there was no indication German
defense outlays would actually rise from a current level of 1.5
percent of gross national product, about half of West Germany's
targets of 25 years ago, and less comparatively than Italy spends now.
..
This comes in a period of relative estrangement between the United
States and parts of Europe, and at a time when the Bush administration
continues to see significant political elements in Europe incapable of
acting frontally against obvious threats to peace. Opposing this among
some of the United States' old allies, there is a description of the
administration as both systematically applying power and military
solutions to negotiable problems, and being instinctively drawn to the
use of the United States' predominant force in every kind of
relationship.
..
The recommended response from the Europeans who regard present-day
America in this way is to build the European Union into a credible
grouping that can look the United States in the eye from an equal
level of political and military power - an undertaking that Guy
Verhofstadt, the Belgian prime minister, insists on calling Europe's
"emancipation."
..
"The international emancipation of the European Union is both
inevitable and desirable," Verhofstadt wrote. "It means that the
European Union develops a credible international policy, which is
based on European defense. The United States sees the European defense
plans as a threat. To my regret, I've noticed that the United States
too often considers" European "integration running counter to its own
position of power."
..
Putting more money into defense, in part because it is said to be
America's gauge of respect, and the parallel creation of a real EU
common foreign policy are held by the backers of this creed in France
and Germany as the essentials in creating what the French call "Europe
puissance," or very roughly, Power Europe.
..
But reality enters here, and it is not certain if its intrusion
intensifies or winds down the alienation. The fact is, statements like
the German defense minister's on a global political ambition for
Europe as a determining player and the German press's description of
the country's diminished military spending do not necessarily match
up. Neither is there much positive evidence to shore up the idea of a
cohesive Europe ready for "wide-ranging preventative engagement" in
the implosion of talks on a new EU constitution last month, or last
week in the European Commission's decision to take France and Germany
and others to court for destroying the EU's Stability and Growth Pact.
..
This disarray cannot be explained alone by European suspicions of
American attempts at disaggregating the EU, or a so-called lack of
American respect for European ideals of enlightened environmentalism
or the universal primacy of international institutions. Europe's
miasma of dissatisfaction with itself in 2003, its palpable nonunity,
its public opinion's very vague interest in power, has not disappeared
like an old address book with the new year.
..
Polling over the past two weeks shows that 59 percent of European
public opinion, headed by Germany and Italy, considers that the euro,
once the EU's most glowing achievement, has disadvantages in
comparison with the abandoned national currencies. In France, perhaps
because Europe's expansion in May to 25 members signals a sharp
decline in French influence, a rising majority of 55 percent now
opposes taking the America-friendly countries of the old Soviet bloc
into the democracy and modernity of the EU.
..
Not much surprise then, when a senior administration official in
Washington commented that "Europeans' aggravation with the United
States is in some ways about their own inability to complete their
vision. Their anxiety about us is deflected anxiety. It's not about
the U.S. alone. It's about Europe."
..
But there is something close to startling when Hubert Vedrine, the
former French Socialist foreign minister, who in 1998 called the
United States under President Bill Clinton a unilateralist hyperpower
that needed restraint by a multilateral network of nations, also
suggests these days that a serious element of Europe's so-called
alienation from America is really a Europe-on- Europe question. To the
extent that both Chancellor Gerhard Schröder of Germany and President
Jacques Chirac of France have pulled back considerably from day-to-day
confrontation with the Americans, and have reassured businessmen at
home that they are going find big contracts in Iraq after all, this
change in tone suggests moderately less spiky circumstances in 2004.
European unity, as conceived on both sides of the Rhine, could be
becoming less assertively a matter of opposition to the United States
than a year ago when the French and Germans appointed themselves,
without consultation, the joint EU-voice of confrontation with the
Americans. In one of a series of interviews for this article, Vedrine
spoke of France's lack of ease with the United States. "There's
jealousy," he said. "The United States became what France wanted to
be, the universal country. When I criticize the French, I recognize
the neurosis here."
..
As for Europe, although Vedrine wanted it to emerge as an influential
pole in a multipolar world, it was "simplistic" to talk of a Europe as
a counterweight to the United States. Real cooperation, real
partnership was what he believed in, and accepting this, Vedrine said,
would represent a real sacrifice by the United States. Besides, he
went on, it was "not clear" at all if Europeans wanted to become a
power.
..
"This will change," he said, "if the Europeans ever think one day that
their lifestyle is in danger. Otherwise, they don't give a damn."
..
Indeed, Vedrine considered that all the European demonstrations
against the war in Iraq in early 2003 weren't so much tens of
thousands shouting for a Power Europe, but Europeans expressing their
phobia to the use of force - and in the particular instance, American
force.
..
Egon Bahr, the German geopolitical gadfly who was the architect of
Ostpolitik under Willy Brandt, insists these days that Europe's
chasing after the United States in an attempt to appear respectable
militarily is a pathetic and futile waste of time that actually
perpetuates trans-Atlantic tensions and Europe's inferiority complex
in relation to the Americans.
..
He called for a redefinition of the North Atlantic Treaty
Organization: let America serve as the armed torque in what he called
"forcing" peace, and Europe as the mutually recognized central element
in "the maintenance of peace."
..
"That would be a partnership," Bahr said in an article. "It takes in a
European independence that is not defined as opposed to but alongside
America." This sense of contradiction, of European ambiguity about
what Europe does or can do - make peace, for example, but not war -
carries into the public opinion surveys that last fall showed
Europeans much less confident about American leadership. The polling
by the German Marshall Fund, supported in part by American
contributors, marked declines in respect for U.S. sagacity even in
traditionally Atlanticist countries like the Netherlands and Britain.
But other findings in the poll, barely noted in Europe, savaged the
premise of deep public support for calls like Struck's for a decisive
global role for a Europe bolstered by its own expanded military
capability. In the case of Germany, none of the poll's hypotheses that
projected the use of international force - responding to terrorist or
nuclear threats even with the approval of the UN Security Council, the
EU and NATO - got majority support.
..
In one example, when the German Marshall Fund asked Germans
specifically if they would support a Security Council-authorized
attack (countries and means unspecified) on Iran to force it to give
up weapons of mass destruction, a majority of Germans said they would
not. A strong majority in the United States, and much thinner ones in
Britain and France, answered that they would. But concerning North
Korea in the same circumstances, a UN-sanctioned attack got majority
backing in neither France nor Germany.
..
It is against the psychological backdrop of the issue of how Europe
deals with the menace of violence the world over - conscious
disengagement or limited responsibility seem to define the parameters
of European public opinion on the subject - that the harshest attacks
on the United States of President George W. Bush resound.
..
At their theoretical extreme, to counteract America's course there is
a call for a literal union of France and Germany. This alliance, a
French advocate wrote, "ipso facto, would be the second power in the
world. Economic power, nuclear power, armed with a Security Council
seat, it would be an incontrovertible force even for the United
States."
..
Jacques Julliard, the French political journalist who has published a
short book advancing this thesis, describes Bush as gaining power
through a judicial coup d'état. When it comes to advocating France and
Germany's explicit seizure of European leadership, he acknowledges
other European "governments won't fail to denounce the power grab of
our two nations. Of course. But so what?"
..
At the anti-Bush arguments' most intense, John le Carré, the British
spy novelist, has referred to a neoconservative junta seizing power in
America and "limiting human rights in the United States to an extent
that is quite unimaginable." The junta's "adventurism" involved its
links with Israel, and paraphrasing a part of the diary of Victor
Klemperer, a Jew hiding from the Nazis in Germany during World War II,
le Carré said, "I'm waiting for the real Americans to return." To a
radio interviewer who asked if there was an implied association
between the Bush administration and the Nazi regime, le Carré replied,
"I did not make that association myself."
..
Frits Bolkestein, a Dutch European commissioner and a committed
Atlanticist, talking about European alienation and anti-Americanism in
Europe, said that "it has been and will always be there." "In this
sharper phase, the Bush crowd is the detonator. In my country even
responsible people say America is the cause of instability in the
world - and they are not contradicted. That's new and perhaps a sea
change. How do we get out of this hole? Not so easy. People don't like
to be dependent, although they are." But for some European
politicians, the Bush bogeyman characterization, finding daily
resupply in arguments from the U.S. domestic political scene, is a
type of diversion from focusing on more painful issues closer afield.
..
Bernard Kouchner, the French Socialist who polls show remains the most
popular opposition figure in his country in spite of his criticism of
the government's position on Iraq, said of the French, "We've turned
Bush into the great enemy as if that could cement together a scared
and hesitant country."
..
"Yes, the French are anti-American, and something new, anti-Semitic
and racist," Kouchner told a French reporter. "Something's gone wrong
in France's head." Denis MacShane, Britain's minister for Europe, said
at the end of the 1990's, "We awakened with an enfeebled Europe in
every sphere. Maybe not socially or culturally, but our general
attractiveness was zilch. We had also lived through the humiliation of
Bosnia and Kosovo."
..
European-American alienation in terms of this reality, he said, "is
all about Europe's sense of growing inferiority." Indeed, MacShane
said the Bush administration's first year in power was incoherent, and
its policies since, on China or Russia for example, often
inconsistent.
..
But Europe, he said, had made the mistake of "patronizing" Bush in its
longing for Clinton, "a Social Democrat who put Europe on Valium, who
could schmooze Europe, talk European."
..
After Clinton, when what MacShane called "old America" reappeared,
Europe was caught by surprise. But the United States was not immutable
or dense or unaware it made mistakes. Now, MacShane felt, "America has
had its year and a half of neocon glory."
..
Although MacShane did talk about it, an official in Brussels pointed
to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's extreme caution in avoiding any
personal involvement in the tense discussion through December about
the possible creation of an EU military planning headquarters separate
from NATO. He suggested it was a clear change in American fine-tuning
in its approach to Europe.
..
"There's a recognition that deeper-lying state interests exist and the
United States is reverting back to them," said MacShane.
..
José Manuel Durão Barroso, Portugal's prime minister, a rare European
leader in the sense that he has actually lived and worked in the
United States outside any official capacity, talks readily about
differences in "sensitivity and style" between America and Europe, and
the administration's failure "to pay enough attention to the
presentation" of its arguments.
..
Estrangement? In some respects, he said in an interview, America's
more pragmatic culture grates. But a certain kind of pragmatism, he
felt, would serve Europe well in relation to the United States. "In
some European capitals there's the idea that we'll be more integrated
if we're a counterweight to America. My position on building Europe is
that you should think of it as a counterpart. A European defense
identity, yes. But a counterweight? Constructing America as an
adversary? What's strategically intelligent in building an identity
against the United States?"
..
That's stupid, Durão Barroso said. Silly, he went on. Nonsense
.

User: "Jürgen Hubert"

Title: Re: What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality 27 Jan 2004 03:03:59 AM
"michael meier" <micha4me@yahoo.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:2be1b63.0401200748.b5705bd@posting.google.com...

And another interesting article from the International Herald Tribune
on transatlanticism.

http://www.iht.com/articles/125649.html

What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality

PARIS This is the second of two articles
.
Barely a week ago, Peter Struck, the German defense minister, told a
political forum in Berlin that Europe must become a world political
actor with a determining role, ready for "wide-ranging preventative
engagement." That required greater military capabilities, he said.
.
In the next days, the Defense Ministry said it would cut E26 billion,
or $32 billion, from previously budgeted programs to allow Germany's
military to fashion itself a kind of global reach. At the least, this
looked like a difficult ambition since there was no indication German
defense outlays would actually rise from a current level of 1.5
percent of gross national product, about half of West Germany's
targets of 25 years ago, and less comparatively than Italy spends now.

Well, what that comes down to is the fact that Germany has some rather huge
problems with its budget deficit - and unlike the US government, there's a
limit in how much deficit spending the German government can get away with.
_Every_ field currently faces budget cuts, not just the German military.
On the other hand, the Bundeswehr _does_ get restructured at the same time.
Up until very recently, the military focus of the German military was
"homeland defense" - i.e., trying to stop the advancing Sovjet horde until
our allies stop them by nuking us. Now the new focus of the Bundeswehr are
international military engagements - last thing I've heard, the Ministry of
Defense even wants to drop the traditional Army/Navy/Air Force split and
wants to reorganize it among different lines: Rapid Reaction Forces (i.e.,
those who go in into the actual war zones and try to establish peace),
Peacekeeping Forces (those who try to rebuild failed nations after some
tenative ceasefire has been established - like the current German forces
stationed in Afghanistan), and Support (those who stay at home in Germany
and are responsible for all the logistical details, as well as the training
of new recruits and so on...).
And many of these budget cuts come from areas that are irrelevant for the
new mission profiles (like all those tanks that just sit around in
Germany...). So, yes, it's bad that the Bundeswehr suffers from budget
cuts - but despite that, the German military will be _more_ ready for
international engagements in the future, not less.
--
- Jürgen Hubert
Doing Time in Munich
Military Diaries III, or: Bavarian Barkeeper
http://juergen.the-huberts.net
.

User: "Harvey"

Title: Re: What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality 20 Jan 2004 10:50:14 AM
"michael meier" <micha4me@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:2be1b63.0401200748.b5705bd@posting.google.com...

And another interesting article from the International Herald Tribune
on transatlanticism.

http://www.iht.com/articles/125649.html

What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality

PARIS This is the second of two articles
.
Barely a week ago, Peter Struck, the German defense minister, told a
political forum in Berlin that Europe must become a world political
actor with a determining role, ready for "wide-ranging preventative
engagement." That required greater military capabilities, he said.

This would be wonderful. But getting back to reality, what Europe really
wants comes a bit later in this article. Europe, France and Germany
specifically, want to decide in the UN when and where force is necessary,
and then calling in US forces like hired mercenaries to do the job... except
they wouldn't be "hired" persay in the sense that a mercenary won't work
unless it's for personal profit, usually a very high profit to make the risk
worthwhile. In short, what Europe wants is strong but stupid mercenaries to
do their bidding.
This is what France, and to a lesser extent Germany, tried to do in the UN
prior to the Iraq invasion. Not willing to invest in a credible military of
their own, not with their own money anyway, France made a bid for world
influence on the cheap via diplomacy. And it almost worked. Much of the
world bought the "hyperpower" nonsense, disregarding that if America was out
for world conquest, Canada and Mexico made much more sense than Iraq. Both
are right next door and America's 1st and 3rd largest source of imported
oil, both are right next door, and both are softer targets than Iraq.
Ironically, both Canada and Mexico bought the hyperpower theory.
France's careful diplomatic calculations in this regard got blown right out
of the water when the US essentially said "Screw the UN, we're doing it
anyway"... something they didn't anticipate at all, it seems.
*Bad* stupid mercenary! *Impolitic* stupid mercenary! Don't you know your
place? *We* decide when you act, not you!
At the end of the day, the US military's excess strength is largely a result
of the cold war and will attenuate. Americans are not fond of spending as
much on their military as the next 25 or so countries combined... trust me.
And who knows... the Europeans might even elect to spend more on their own,
and take care of situations like Bosnia themselves...
But I doubt it.
Harvey

.
In the next days, the Defense Ministry said it would cut E26 billion,
or $32 billion, from previously budgeted programs to allow Germany's
military to fashion itself a kind of global reach. At the least, this
looked like a difficult ambition since there was no indication German
defense outlays would actually rise from a current level of 1.5
percent of gross national product, about half of West Germany's
targets of 25 years ago, and less comparatively than Italy spends now.
.
This comes in a period of relative estrangement between the United
States and parts of Europe, and at a time when the Bush administration
continues to see significant political elements in Europe incapable of
acting frontally against obvious threats to peace. Opposing this among
some of the United States' old allies, there is a description of the
administration as both systematically applying power and military
solutions to negotiable problems, and being instinctively drawn to the
use of the United States' predominant force in every kind of
relationship.
.
The recommended response from the Europeans who regard present-day
America in this way is to build the European Union into a credible
grouping that can look the United States in the eye from an equal
level of political and military power - an undertaking that Guy
Verhofstadt, the Belgian prime minister, insists on calling Europe's
"emancipation."
.
"The international emancipation of the European Union is both
inevitable and desirable," Verhofstadt wrote. "It means that the
European Union develops a credible international policy, which is
based on European defense. The United States sees the European defense
plans as a threat. To my regret, I've noticed that the United States
too often considers" European "integration running counter to its own
position of power."
.
Putting more money into defense, in part because it is said to be
America's gauge of respect, and the parallel creation of a real EU
common foreign policy are held by the backers of this creed in France
and Germany as the essentials in creating what the French call "Europe
puissance," or very roughly, Power Europe.
.
But reality enters here, and it is not certain if its intrusion
intensifies or winds down the alienation. The fact is, statements like
the German defense minister's on a global political ambition for
Europe as a determining player and the German press's description of
the country's diminished military spending do not necessarily match
up. Neither is there much positive evidence to shore up the idea of a
cohesive Europe ready for "wide-ranging preventative engagement" in
the implosion of talks on a new EU constitution last month, or last
week in the European Commission's decision to take France and Germany
and others to court for destroying the EU's Stability and Growth Pact.
.
This disarray cannot be explained alone by European suspicions of
American attempts at disaggregating the EU, or a so-called lack of
American respect for European ideals of enlightened environmentalism
or the universal primacy of international institutions. Europe's
miasma of dissatisfaction with itself in 2003, its palpable nonunity,
its public opinion's very vague interest in power, has not disappeared
like an old address book with the new year.
.
Polling over the past two weeks shows that 59 percent of European
public opinion, headed by Germany and Italy, considers that the euro,
once the EU's most glowing achievement, has disadvantages in
comparison with the abandoned national currencies. In France, perhaps
because Europe's expansion in May to 25 members signals a sharp
decline in French influence, a rising majority of 55 percent now
opposes taking the America-friendly countries of the old Soviet bloc
into the democracy and modernity of the EU.
.
Not much surprise then, when a senior administration official in
Washington commented that "Europeans' aggravation with the United
States is in some ways about their own inability to complete their
vision. Their anxiety about us is deflected anxiety. It's not about
the U.S. alone. It's about Europe."
.
But there is something close to startling when Hubert Vedrine, the
former French Socialist foreign minister, who in 1998 called the
United States under President Bill Clinton a unilateralist hyperpower
that needed restraint by a multilateral network of nations, also
suggests these days that a serious element of Europe's so-called
alienation from America is really a Europe-on- Europe question. To the
extent that both Chancellor Gerhard Schröder of Germany and President
Jacques Chirac of France have pulled back considerably from day-to-day
confrontation with the Americans, and have reassured businessmen at
home that they are going find big contracts in Iraq after all, this
change in tone suggests moderately less spiky circumstances in 2004.
European unity, as conceived on both sides of the Rhine, could be
becoming less assertively a matter of opposition to the United States
than a year ago when the French and Germans appointed themselves,
without consultation, the joint EU-voice of confrontation with the
Americans. In one of a series of interviews for this article, Vedrine
spoke of France's lack of ease with the United States. "There's
jealousy," he said. "The United States became what France wanted to
be, the universal country. When I criticize the French, I recognize
the neurosis here."
.
As for Europe, although Vedrine wanted it to emerge as an influential
pole in a multipolar world, it was "simplistic" to talk of a Europe as
a counterweight to the United States. Real cooperation, real
partnership was what he believed in, and accepting this, Vedrine said,
would represent a real sacrifice by the United States. Besides, he
went on, it was "not clear" at all if Europeans wanted to become a
power.
.
"This will change," he said, "if the Europeans ever think one day that
their lifestyle is in danger. Otherwise, they don't give a damn."
.
Indeed, Vedrine considered that all the European demonstrations
against the war in Iraq in early 2003 weren't so much tens of
thousands shouting for a Power Europe, but Europeans expressing their
phobia to the use of force - and in the particular instance, American
force.
.
Egon Bahr, the German geopolitical gadfly who was the architect of
Ostpolitik under Willy Brandt, insists these days that Europe's
chasing after the United States in an attempt to appear respectable
militarily is a pathetic and futile waste of time that actually
perpetuates trans-Atlantic tensions and Europe's inferiority complex
in relation to the Americans.
.
He called for a redefinition of the North Atlantic Treaty
Organization: let America serve as the armed torque in what he called
"forcing" peace, and Europe as the mutually recognized central element
in "the maintenance of peace."
.
"That would be a partnership," Bahr said in an article. "It takes in a
European independence that is not defined as opposed to but alongside
America." This sense of contradiction, of European ambiguity about
what Europe does or can do - make peace, for example, but not war -
carries into the public opinion surveys that last fall showed
Europeans much less confident about American leadership. The polling
by the German Marshall Fund, supported in part by American
contributors, marked declines in respect for U.S. sagacity even in
traditionally Atlanticist countries like the Netherlands and Britain.
But other findings in the poll, barely noted in Europe, savaged the
premise of deep public support for calls like Struck's for a decisive
global role for a Europe bolstered by its own expanded military
capability. In the case of Germany, none of the poll's hypotheses that
projected the use of international force - responding to terrorist or
nuclear threats even with the approval of the UN Security Council, the
EU and NATO - got majority support.
.
In one example, when the German Marshall Fund asked Germans
specifically if they would support a Security Council-authorized
attack (countries and means unspecified) on Iran to force it to give
up weapons of mass destruction, a majority of Germans said they would
not. A strong majority in the United States, and much thinner ones in
Britain and France, answered that they would. But concerning North
Korea in the same circumstances, a UN-sanctioned attack got majority
backing in neither France nor Germany.
.
It is against the psychological backdrop of the issue of how Europe
deals with the menace of violence the world over - conscious
disengagement or limited responsibility seem to define the parameters
of European public opinion on the subject - that the harshest attacks
on the United States of President George W. Bush resound.
.
At their theoretical extreme, to counteract America's course there is
a call for a literal union of France and Germany. This alliance, a
French advocate wrote, "ipso facto, would be the second power in the
world. Economic power, nuclear power, armed with a Security Council
seat, it would be an incontrovertible force even for the United
States."
.
Jacques Julliard, the French political journalist who has published a
short book advancing this thesis, describes Bush as gaining power
through a judicial coup d'état. When it comes to advocating France and
Germany's explicit seizure of European leadership, he acknowledges
other European "governments won't fail to denounce the power grab of
our two nations. Of course. But so what?"
.
At the anti-Bush arguments' most intense, John le Carré, the British
spy novelist, has referred to a neoconservative junta seizing power in
America and "limiting human rights in the United States to an extent
that is quite unimaginable." The junta's "adventurism" involved its
links with Israel, and paraphrasing a part of the diary of Victor
Klemperer, a Jew hiding from the Nazis in Germany during World War II,
le Carré said, "I'm waiting for the real Americans to return." To a
radio interviewer who asked if there was an implied association
between the Bush administration and the Nazi regime, le Carré replied,
"I did not make that association myself."
.
Frits Bolkestein, a Dutch European commissioner and a committed
Atlanticist, talking about European alienation and anti-Americanism in
Europe, said that "it has been and will always be there." "In this
sharper phase, the Bush crowd is the detonator. In my country even
responsible people say America is the cause of instability in the
world - and they are not contradicted. That's new and perhaps a sea
change. How do we get out of this hole? Not so easy. People don't like
to be dependent, although they are." But for some European
politicians, the Bush bogeyman characterization, finding daily
resupply in arguments from the U.S. domestic political scene, is a
type of diversion from focusing on more painful issues closer afield.
.
Bernard Kouchner, the French Socialist who polls show remains the most
popular opposition figure in his country in spite of his criticism of
the government's position on Iraq, said of the French, "We've turned
Bush into the great enemy as if that could cement together a scared
and hesitant country."
.
"Yes, the French are anti-American, and something new, anti-Semitic
and racist," Kouchner told a French reporter. "Something's gone wrong
in France's head." Denis MacShane, Britain's minister for Europe, said
at the end of the 1990's, "We awakened with an enfeebled Europe in
every sphere. Maybe not socially or culturally, but our general
attractiveness was zilch. We had also lived through the humiliation of
Bosnia and Kosovo."
.
European-American alienation in terms of this reality, he said, "is
all about Europe's sense of growing inferiority." Indeed, MacShane
said the Bush administration's first year in power was incoherent, and
its policies since, on China or Russia for example, often
inconsistent.
.
But Europe, he said, had made the mistake of "patronizing" Bush in its
longing for Clinton, "a Social Democrat who put Europe on Valium, who
could schmooze Europe, talk European."
.
After Clinton, when what MacShane called "old America" reappeared,
Europe was caught by surprise. But the United States was not immutable
or dense or unaware it made mistakes. Now, MacShane felt, "America has
had its year and a half of neocon glory."
.
Although MacShane did talk about it, an official in Brussels pointed
to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's extreme caution in avoiding any
personal involvement in the tense discussion through December about
the possible creation of an EU military planning headquarters separate
from NATO. He suggested it was a clear change in American fine-tuning
in its approach to Europe.
.
"There's a recognition that deeper-lying state interests exist and the
United States is reverting back to them," said MacShane.
.
José Manuel Durão Barroso, Portugal's prime minister, a rare European
leader in the sense that he has actually lived and worked in the
United States outside any official capacity, talks readily about
differences in "sensitivity and style" between America and Europe, and
the administration's failure "to pay enough attention to the
presentation" of its arguments.
.
Estrangement? In some respects, he said in an interview, America's
more pragmatic culture grates. But a certain kind of pragmatism, he
felt, would serve Europe well in relation to the United States. "In
some European capitals there's the idea that we'll be more integrated
if we're a counterweight to America. My position on building Europe is
that you should think of it as a counterpart. A European defense
identity, yes. But a counterweight? Constructing America as an
adversary? What's strategically intelligent in building an identity
against the United States?"
.
That's stupid, Durão Barroso said. Silly, he went on. Nonsense

.
User: "Jürgen Hubert"

Title: Re: What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality 27 Jan 2004 03:05:28 AM
"Harvey" <researchermd@netscape.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:a%cPb.26273$Xq2.11847@fed1read07...


"michael meier" <micha4me@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:2be1b63.0401200748.b5705bd@posting.google.com...

And another interesting article from the International Herald Tribune
on transatlanticism.

http://www.iht.com/articles/125649.html

What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality

PARIS This is the second of two articles
.
Barely a week ago, Peter Struck, the German defense minister, told a
political forum in Berlin that Europe must become a world political
actor with a determining role, ready for "wide-ranging preventative
engagement." That required greater military capabilities, he said.



This would be wonderful. But getting back to reality, what Europe really
wants comes a bit later in this article. Europe, France and Germany
specifically, want to decide in the UN when and where force is necessary,
and then calling in US forces like hired mercenaries to do the job...

except

they wouldn't be "hired" persay in the sense that a mercenary won't work
unless it's for personal profit, usually a very high profit to make the

risk

worthwhile. In short, what Europe wants is strong but stupid mercenaries

to

do their bidding.

Question: Do you see the German soldiers stationed in Afghanistan who are
trying to rebuild the country at the request of the USA as "stupid
mercenaries"?
A ex-member of the Bundeswehr would like to know.
--
- Jürgen Hubert
Doing Time in Munich
Military Diaries III, or: Bavarian Barkeeper
http://juergen.the-huberts.net
.
User: "Harvey"

Title: Re: What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality 27 Jan 2004 09:33:46 AM
"Jürgen Hubert" <jhubert@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:bv5f31$ofkvp$4@ID-166792.news.uni-berlin.de...


"Harvey" <researchermd@netscape.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:a%cPb.26273$Xq2.11847@fed1read07...


"michael meier" <micha4me@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:2be1b63.0401200748.b5705bd@posting.google.com...

And another interesting article from the International Herald Tribune
on transatlanticism.

http://www.iht.com/articles/125649.html

What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality

PARIS This is the second of two articles
.
Barely a week ago, Peter Struck, the German defense minister, told a
political forum in Berlin that Europe must become a world political
actor with a determining role, ready for "wide-ranging preventative
engagement." That required greater military capabilities, he said.



This would be wonderful. But getting back to reality, what Europe really
wants comes a bit later in this article. Europe, France and Germany
specifically, want to decide in the UN when and where force is

necessary,

and then calling in US forces like hired mercenaries to do the job...

except

they wouldn't be "hired" persay in the sense that a mercenary won't work
unless it's for personal profit, usually a very high profit to make the

risk

worthwhile. In short, what Europe wants is strong but stupid mercenaries

to

do their bidding.


Question: Do you see the German soldiers stationed in Afghanistan who are
trying to rebuild the country at the request of the USA as "stupid
mercenaries"?

???
Absolutely not, quite the opposite. The idea of the mercenary is dead
outside the third world anyway as far as I know, except possibly in the mind
of Chirac. I'm saying that France and Germany were behaving in the UN before
the Iraq invasion as if America's role in the world was that of the UN's
mercenary (and an unpaid one at that). "WE decide what is to be done, then
YOU go and do it." An interesting diplomatic gambit than hinged on Bush
being cowed by the prospect of acting outside the good graces of the UN. It
also didn't work, obviously.
Whatever you think of invading Iraq, one of the primary reasons we went in
there is because we could. Europe needs to build it's military IMO. There is
a lot of bloody history in Europe, but as we speak at least, nations that
are democratic have never warred with each other, and I think dwelling on
history in this regard is counterproductive. I have no idea how the EU is
going to wind up working out, but in the hypothetical situation of America
wanting to invade Iraq and the EU (with a roughly equivalent military)
saying "no," the invasion would never have happened.
Harvey


A ex-member of the Bundeswehr would like to know.


--
- Jürgen Hubert
Doing Time in Munich

Military Diaries III, or: Bavarian Barkeeper
http://juergen.the-huberts.net


.


User: "Peter Pradelski"

Title: Re: What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality 20 Jan 2004 01:34:07 PM
Harvey wrote:

*Bad* stupid mercenary! *Impolitic* stupid mercenary!

In the USA young poor people go to the army, because they have no better
perspectives in their life than become soldier. They don't fight for their
Land, their fight for money.
So they are mercenary.
They go in the land and do the job, what is said to them from the people who
pay them. They don't think about if this job is good or wrong.
So they are impolitic mercenary.
If this job includes killing of civilians, they do it without asking.
So they are bad impolitic mercenary.
They go into the world to bring them the system, where they comes from. The
same system, that gives them no better live perspective than the army. The
system, that gives them no better life than go into the world to do a
killing job without asking about right or wrong. The same system, that let
them kill women and children for money. They don't ask themself, if such a
system is worth fighting for.
So are stupid bad impolitic mercenary.
It's not possible, that France or Germany wants the US-Soldiers to become
stupid bad impolitic mercenary. Because this is, what they already are.
.
User: "Jürgen Hubert"

Title: Re: What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality 27 Jan 2004 03:08:37 AM
"Peter Pradelski" <nospam.abuse@gmx.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:bujvsb$idaoi$1@ID-34701.news.uni-berlin.de...
[snip]

So are stupid bad impolitic mercenary.

That was totally inappropriate. It's not the fault of the average US soldier
that their leadership was incapable of adequately preparing them for the
"post-war" period in Iraq. These guys try to do the best they can, even if
the current situation means that they are "damned if they do, and damned if
they don't".
Calling them "mercenaries" is just plain insulting, and I think you should
apologize.
--
- Jürgen Hubert
Doing Time in Munich
Military Diaries III, or: Bavarian Barkeeper
http://juergen.the-huberts.net
.
User: "Peter Pradelski"

Title: Re: What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality 27 Jan 2004 12:59:40 PM
Jürgen Hubert wrote:


"Peter Pradelski" <nospam.abuse@gmx.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:bujvsb$idaoi$1@ID-34701.news.uni-berlin.de...

[snip]

So are stupid bad impolitic mercenary.


That was totally inappropriate. It's not the fault of the average US
soldier that their leadership was incapable of adequately preparing them
for the "post-war" period in Iraq. These guys try to do the best they can,
even if the current situation means that they are "damned if they do, and
damned if they don't".

Calling them "mercenaries" is just plain insulting, and I think you should
apologize.

Soldiers are people who fight to defend their families and friends against
enemies, who cames to rape their sisters and wifes, to burn their houses,
maybe to slave or kill them all.
Mercenaries are people who fight for money. They fight against other people
because the paymaster calls this people "the enemy".
When a poor young man cames to the army bureau, why do he this? Because he
wants to defend his family and friends against invading enemy hordes? Or
because he wants to went out of the ghetto and get a better life?
Hear what the US-soldiers says in the TV. It's not "I'm here to defend my
family against iraqui nukes". It's not "I'm here to defend my freinds
against a invasion of the afghan army". No, it's "When the president says,
I will go and do the job". They simply do what the paymaster commands them
to do.
Yes, they are mercenaries for their own country. But in the rennaisance the
most of the italian mercenaries also fought for their own cities. It's
unusual, but it happens in the history - and changes nothing on the fact
what the italian mercenaries were and the US-soldiers are.
Ok, its only partially their fault. They cames from a political system that
gives young poor people like them no better chance in life than become
mercenaries. If I were a young poor man born in such a funny land, probably
now I were also such a mercenary. But this is only an excusion for what
they are, it doesn't change what they are.
.


User: "Harvey"

Title: Re: What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality 20 Jan 2004 02:45:02 PM
"Peter Pradelski" <nospam.abuse@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:bujvsb$idaoi$1@ID-34701.news.uni-berlin.de...

Harvey wrote:

*Bad* stupid mercenary! *Impolitic* stupid mercenary!



In the USA young poor people go to the army, because they have no better
perspectives in their life than become soldier. They don't fight for their
Land, their fight for money.

So they are mercenary.

Are you saying that only rich old men join the German army?
I could go on like this for the rest of your rant, but it's really not worth
my time. America bad, Germany and France good. I get it. How erudite.
Harvey



They go in the land and do the job, what is said to them from the people

who

pay them. They don't think about if this job is good or wrong.

So they are impolitic mercenary.


If this job includes killing of civilians, they do it without asking.

So they are bad impolitic mercenary.


They go into the world to bring them the system, where they comes from.

The

same system, that gives them no better live perspective than the army. The
system, that gives them no better life than go into the world to do a
killing job without asking about right or wrong. The same system, that let
them kill women and children for money. They don't ask themself, if such a
system is worth fighting for.

So are stupid bad impolitic mercenary.




It's not possible, that France or Germany wants the US-Soldiers to become
stupid bad impolitic mercenary. Because this is, what they already are.

.
User: "Jürgen Hubert"

Title: Re: What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality 27 Jan 2004 02:51:22 AM
"Harvey" <researchermd@netscape.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:hrgPb.26771$Xq2.15884@fed1read07...


"Peter Pradelski" <nospam.abuse@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:bujvsb$idaoi$1@ID-34701.news.uni-berlin.de...

Harvey wrote:

*Bad* stupid mercenary! *Impolitic* stupid mercenary!



In the USA young poor people go to the army, because they have no better
perspectives in their life than become soldier. They don't fight for

their

Land, their fight for money.

So they are mercenary.



Are you saying that only rich old men join the German army?

No, plenty of younger and less rich people join the German army because they
get drafted...
--
- Jürgen Hubert
Doing Time in Munich
Military Diaries III, or: Bavarian Barkeeper
http://juergen.the-huberts.net
.


User: "Peer J. Knoerich"

Title: Re: What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality 20 Jan 2004 05:27:24 PM
Peter Pradelski schriebselte folgendes am 20.01.2004 20:34 Uhr:


In the USA young poor people go to the army, because they have no better
perspectives in their life than become soldier. They don't fight for their
Land, their fight for money.

So they are mercenary.


They go in the land and do the job, what is said to them from the people who
pay them. They don't think about if this job is good or wrong.

So they are impolitic mercenary.


If this job includes killing of civilians, they do it without asking.

So they are bad impolitic mercenary.


They go into the world to bring them the system, where they comes from. The
same system, that gives them no better live perspective than the army. The
system, that gives them no better life than go into the world to do a
killing job without asking about right or wrong. The same system, that let
them kill women and children for money. They don't ask themself, if such a
system is worth fighting for.

So are stupid bad impolitic mercenary.




It's not possible, that France or Germany wants the US-Soldiers to become
stupid bad impolitic mercenary. Because this is, what they already are.

solltest vielleicht noch ein bisserl an deinem englisch arbeiten
(rechtschreibung und grammatik) und die sig richtig gestalten, aber
sonst fand ich das, was du geschrieben hast, eine sehr treffende antwort.
peer
--
per aspera ad astra - durch das Dunkle zu den Sternen
.



User: "jackmehoff"

Title: Re: What does Europe want? Rhetoric and reality 20 Jan 2004 10:27:12 AM
"michael meier" <micha4me@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:2be1b63.0401200748.b5705bd@posting.google.com...

And another interesting article from the International Herald Tribune
on transatlanticism.

Aaahh the International Herald Tribune , the mouthpiece of Neo-cons the
world over.
Oh please, wont you quote something from FOX please ?
.


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