What's really happening in Iraq - Please read



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Topic: Politics > Politics-USA
User: "jackkincaid"
Date: 05 Oct 2003 06:14:55 PM
Object: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read
Award-winning Observer corespondent Julie Flint has just returned from
Iraq. Her report in the Obs this Sunday was by no means entirely
supportive of the invasion, liberation and occupation, but is at least
free of the taint of guilt, cant and thoughtless anti-Americanism.
Please read, especially if you're an American, with doubts about the
moral purpose of the invasion:
Julie Flint
Sunday October 5, 2003
The Observer <http://www.observer.co.uk>
Half a century ago, in a blistering denunciation of the Korean war,
the British war correspondent Reginald Thompson wrote: 'It was clear
that there was something profoundly disturbing about this campaign and
something profoundly disturbing about its commander-in-chief.'
Thompson's words could equally well apply to the US-led campaign in
Iraq and its commander-in-chief: George W. Bush, head of a cabal that
seeks to install a client regime in Iraq as a first step to bringing
the region under American-Israeli control.
As last week's report by the Iraqi Survey Group makes clear, the
stated rationale for the Anglo-American war - destruction of Saddam
Hussein's weapons of mass destruction - was at best exaggerated and at
worst plain wrong. There was a case for deposing Saddam, the Pol Pot
of the Arab world, but it was not the case made by George Bush and
Tony Blair. They could have pleaded Saddam's past use of WMD against
his own people; the present threat, from his security services, to
every Iraqi man, woman and child; the future threat from WMD, and
biological weapons in particular, for, as the ISG report also makes
clear, Saddam was concealing work on two BW agents and conducting new
research into two others. But they didn't. Their unilateral war may
make Iraq more safe, but the wider world less so. Disturbing, indeed.
But there is something disturbing, too, about the way that post-war
Iraq has been portrayed. Visceral distrust of Bush/Blair has created a
disregard both for fact and for the victims of Saddam. Arab
commentators have had no shame in urging Iraqis, exhausted by three
wars and more than a decade of sanctions, to launch a new war 'of
liberation' against their liberators. Western commentators have
luxuriated in the setbacks of the Coalition Provisional Authority
(CPA), as if wishing failure upon it - and by extension, the Iraqi
people.
Disaster has been prophesied, self-servingly, at every turn: the war
would be long (it wasn't, and most Iraqis had no direct experience of
it); tens of thousands would die in the battle for Baghdad (they
didn't); there would be a fully-fledged humanitarian disaster (there
wasn't). Now, we are told, Iraqis fear the very real prospect of civil
war. Not those I know. Not yet. Nor those polled in Baghdad last month
by Gallup: 62 per cent thought getting rid of Saddam was worth the
suffering they've endured; 67 per cent thought their lives will be
better five years from now.
From the very beginning, the anti-war lobby has refused to listen to
those Iraqis who supported war over continued tyranny. Banners saying
'Freedom for Iraq' were confiscated at anti-war rallies and
photographs of Halabja, where Saddam gassed 5,000 Kurdish civilians,
were seized. No voice was given to people such as Freshta Raper, who
lost 21 relatives in Halabja and wanted to ask: 'How many of you have
asked an Iraqi mother how she felt when forced to watch her son being
executed? How many know that these mothers had to applaud as their
sons died? What is more moral: freeing an oppressed, brutalised people
from a vicious tyrant or allowing millions to continue suffering
indefinitely?'
In the summer I spent more than a month in Iraq. What I found did not
correspond to what was being reported - most crucially, that the
liberators were already widely denounced as occupiers. As a rule, that
simply wasn't true.
In Baghdad, where US forces had permitted looting (although not as
much as reported) and where security and services were virtually
non-existent, attitudes towards the Americans were mixed. But even in
Baghdad, even with Saddam and his sons still at large, the sense of
relief at the toppling of the regime was palpable.

A university lecturer living above a bakery where colleagues were
burned alive told me: 'I feel as if I have been born again. Iraq was a
prison above ground and a mass grave beneath it.'
Outside Baghdad, in the Shia south, the mood was overwhelmingly
upbeat. In Basra, ordinary people gave the thumbs-up at the mere sight
of a Brit. In Najaf, a waiter blew kisses.
The occupying forces admittedly got off to a wretched start. In
stressing stability, the first US administrator, General Jay Garner,
opened the doors of the new Iraq to discredited servants of the old
Iraq. His successor, Paul Bremer, went to the opposite extreme,
disbanding the entire Iraqi army and in so doing making enemies of
half a million serving and retired officers and NCOs.
But Bremer has belatedly accepted the need for greater reliance on
Iraqis in the field of security - more than 55,000 are now enrolled in
law-enforcement services - and has set about transforming a bankrupt
economy burdened with a Stalinist industrial structure and three
decades of mismanagement.
He has yet to announce a timetable for restoring sovereignty to
Iraqis. But he has ushered in an Iraqi governing council that embraces
a range of opinion unequalled in the Arab and Muslim worlds, and an
Iraqi cabinet that is not without virtue. 'These are people who have
been to Harvard, Oxford and MIT... educated people!' says an Iraqi
archaeologist who opposed the war. 'Some of Saddam's Ministers hadn't
got beyond primary school.' All Iraqi cities and 85 per cent of towns
have fully functioning municipalities. The nine district councils of
Baghdad that form the city council meet regularly and appear to work
harmoniously.
'The degree of transparency and cooperation in the work of the council
is impressive,' says Rend Rahim Francke of the Iraq Foundation, a
non-governmental organisation working for democracy and human rights.
'Self-government, long advocated for Iraq, appears to be working well
when put into practice.'
For the first time in almost half a century, Iraq has no executions,
no political prisoners, no torture and almost no limits on freedom of
expression. Having a satellite receiver no longer means imprisonment
or even death. There are almost 200 newspapers and magazines that
require no police permit and suffer no censorship, and more than 70
political parties and dozens of NGOs. Old professional associations
have held elections and new associations have sprung up. People can
demonstrate freely - and do.
Unemployment is still a huge problem, but more people have jobs and
salaries have risen both for qualified people seeking work in the
private sector and for civil servants. Shops are overflowing with
imported goods. Food prices are lower thanin Saddam's last years. In
Baghdad, the electricity is on more often than off. (In Lebanon, that
took years to achieve.) More Iraqi policemen are on the streets,
directing traffic, guarding buildings and enforcing the law.
Approximately 85 per cent of primary and secondary schools have
reopened. Outside Baghdad, security and services are better and crime
is lower.
Western reporters detail, quite properly, the misdeeds, the crimes
even, of the occupying forces. But this is only part of the story.
'The behaviour of US occupation troops has indeed at times been
unacceptable, but on many more occasions it has been innocuous,' says
Mustafa Alrawi, managing editor of English-language weekly Iraq Today.
One line being peddled today is that there is growing popular support
for a war of resistance against the CPA and Iraqis working with it.
The number of violent deaths is unacceptable - among Americans and
Iraqis alike - but this doesn't mean that there is a popular Iraqi
resistance.
Iraq is not Vietnam. At the root of the current instability are the
very people most Iraqis reject - the remnants of Saddam's Baath party,
and extremists flooding in from neighbouring countries in hope of
establishing religious rule. They, not the liberators/occupiers, are
the real threat to peace in Iraq and stability in the wider region
today.
.

User: "Richard Dell"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 07 Oct 2003 05:30:21 PM
At last, a bit of balance. From the likes of US-haters like Robert Fisk, we know
we are going to get garbage. From the Daily Mirror - not much better. The guys
who really disappoint me are the BBC. Their reporting is so often distressingly
superficial and they always go for what is "going wrong", and blaming those that
they think might be listening (and caring), i.e. Our Side, while failing to go
for the dissemblers (such as Arab governments, the Arab media, and the shameless
Chirac) who they know are not listening. I used to smile at the light sarcasm of
programmes like Broadcasting House, but now see that programme as trivial and
negative.
Last saturday's "Talking Politics" was a welcome breath of reason, as a matter
of interest, and chimes with this article.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/ram/weekinwestminster.ram (audio).
Thanks Jack.
.

User: "The Department of Defense"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 12:04:36 AM
Gracias Mr. Kincaid... but like you have written to me...it wont make a damn
bit of difference to the antiwar crowd.... :-(
.
User: "kuff \Isaac Adams"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 08:37:17 AM
"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:EJ6gb.10155$pg7.3549@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

Gracias Mr. Kincaid... but like you have written to me...it wont make a damn
bit of difference to the antiwar crowd.... :-(

It makes a difference to me DoD. The argument appears to be "see, if they just
lie back they'll enjoy it".
Course I'm not antiwar - just anti-agression. War's fine when need. Not so
fine when pursued from desire rather than necessity.
.
User: "The Department of Defense"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 10:04:18 AM
"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f81700c_1@127.0.0.1...

"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:EJ6gb.10155$pg7.3549@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

Gracias Mr. Kincaid... but like you have written to me...it wont make a

damn

bit of difference to the antiwar crowd.... :-(


It makes a difference to me DoD. The argument appears to be "see, if

they just

lie back they'll enjoy it".

I wonder how many times the Hussein kids thought the same thing?

Course I'm not antiwar - just anti-agression. War's fine when need.

Not so

fine when pursued from desire rather than necessity.

And in this case it is a neccessity....
.
User: "Kel"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 11:28:03 AM
"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f8185f0_2@news.athenanews.com...


"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f81700c_1@127.0.0.1...

(Snip)

Course I'm not antiwar - just anti-agression. War's fine when need.

Not so

fine when pursued from desire rather than necessity.


And in this case it is a neccessity....

Sorry?! In what way was this war "a neccessity"?
.
User: "The Department of Defense"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 12:19:13 PM
"Kel" <osterman@NO.THANKS.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qKggb.4540$ee6.2585@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...


"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f8185f0_2@news.athenanews.com...


"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f81700c_1@127.0.0.1...

(Snip)

Course I'm not antiwar - just anti-agression. War's fine when need.

Not so

fine when pursued from desire rather than necessity.


And in this case it is a neccessity....


Sorry?! In what way was this war "a neccessity"?

*sighs* Use your imagination...
.
User: "Kel"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 07 Oct 2003 02:21:42 AM
"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:luhgb.10407$pg7.3702@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...


"Kel" <osterman@NO.THANKS.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qKggb.4540$ee6.2585@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...


"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f8185f0_2@news.athenanews.com...


"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f81700c_1@127.0.0.1...

(Snip)

Course I'm not antiwar - just anti-agression. War's fine when

need.

Not so

fine when pursued from desire rather than necessity.


And in this case it is a neccessity....


Sorry?! In what way was this war "a neccessity"?


*sighs* Use your imagination...

No. You made a statement. A statement that seems ridiculous given the facts
on the ground. Can you back it up? In what way was this war "a neccessity"?
.
User: "kuff \Isaac Adams"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 07 Oct 2003 08:23:09 AM
"Kel" <osterman@NO.THANKS.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9Qtgb.3981$m81.3542@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...


"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:luhgb.10407$pg7.3702@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...


"Kel" <osterman@NO.THANKS.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qKggb.4540$ee6.2585@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...


"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f8185f0_2@news.athenanews.com...


"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f81700c_1@127.0.0.1...

(Snip)

Course I'm not antiwar - just anti-agression. War's fine when

need.

Not so

fine when pursued from desire rather than necessity.


And in this case it is a neccessity....


Sorry?! In what way was this war "a neccessity"?


*sighs* Use your imagination...


No. You made a statement. A statement that seems ridiculous given the facts
on the ground. Can you back it up? In what way was this war "a neccessity"?

I'll answer for him and let him slap me around.
It was a neccessity because of "The Plan". Iraq in isolation was not a
necessity hence facts on the ground there are not germane. However it was
needed for "The Plan".
Iraq is a means to an end therefore its particulars aren't important.
.
User: "The Department of Defense"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 07 Oct 2003 04:25:19 PM
"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f82be3f_1@127.0.0.1...

"Kel" <osterman@NO.THANKS.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9Qtgb.3981$m81.3542@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...


"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:luhgb.10407$pg7.3702@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...


"Kel" <osterman@NO.THANKS.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qKggb.4540$ee6.2585@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...


"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f8185f0_2@news.athenanews.com...


"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f81700c_1@127.0.0.1...

(Snip)

Course I'm not antiwar - just anti-agression. War's fine when

need.

Not so

fine when pursued from desire rather than necessity.


And in this case it is a neccessity....


Sorry?! In what way was this war "a neccessity"?


*sighs* Use your imagination...


No. You made a statement. A statement that seems ridiculous given the

facts

on the ground. Can you back it up? In what way was this war "a

neccessity"?


I'll answer for him and let him slap me around.

It was a neccessity because of "The Plan". Iraq in isolation was not a
necessity hence facts on the ground there are not germane. However it

was

needed for "The Plan".

Facts on the ground are germane for how we proceed with the rest of "the
plan"
.
User: "Kel"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 08 Oct 2003 02:52:05 AM
"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f8330be_8@news.athenanews.com...


"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f82be3f_1@127.0.0.1...

"Kel" <osterman@NO.THANKS.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9Qtgb.3981$m81.3542@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...


"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:luhgb.10407$pg7.3702@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...


"Kel" <osterman@NO.THANKS.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qKggb.4540$ee6.2585@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...


"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f8185f0_2@news.athenanews.com...


"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f81700c_1@127.0.0.1...

(Snip)

Course I'm not antiwar - just anti-agression. War's fine

when

need.

Not so

fine when pursued from desire rather than necessity.


And in this case it is a neccessity....


Sorry?! In what way was this war "a neccessity"?


*sighs* Use your imagination...


No. You made a statement. A statement that seems ridiculous given the

facts

on the ground. Can you back it up? In what way was this war "a

neccessity"?


I'll answer for him and let him slap me around.

It was a neccessity because of "The Plan". Iraq in isolation was not a
necessity hence facts on the ground there are not germane. However it

was

needed for "The Plan".


Facts on the ground are germane for how we proceed with the rest of "the
plan"

Define "the Plan"? What is it? Do you even know?
.


User: "Kel"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 08 Oct 2003 02:51:21 AM
"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f82be3f_1@127.0.0.1...

"Kel" <osterman@NO.THANKS.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9Qtgb.3981$m81.3542@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...


"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:luhgb.10407$pg7.3702@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...


"Kel" <osterman@NO.THANKS.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qKggb.4540$ee6.2585@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...


"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f8185f0_2@news.athenanews.com...


"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f81700c_1@127.0.0.1...

(Snip)

Course I'm not antiwar - just anti-agression. War's fine when

need.

Not so

fine when pursued from desire rather than necessity.


And in this case it is a neccessity....


Sorry?! In what way was this war "a neccessity"?


*sighs* Use your imagination...


No. You made a statement. A statement that seems ridiculous given the

facts

on the ground. Can you back it up? In what way was this war "a

neccessity"?


I'll answer for him and let him slap me around.

It was a neccessity because of "The Plan". Iraq in isolation was not a
necessity hence facts on the ground there are not germane. However it

was

needed for "The Plan".

Yes, I've followed as he puts out this argument. However, I notice that he
never really defines what "The Plan" is. No doubt it's in some way related
to the Project For A New American Century that right wing Zionist nutters in
the White House have been promoting. However, the wheels came off that cart
as soon as they entered Iraq and found chaos rather than a population
welcoming them with open arms.
DoD is avoiding specifics and vaguely hinting to a larger plan because he
can't argue the specifics. He's being intellectually dishonest.
.
User: "The Department of Defense"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 08 Oct 2003 11:13:30 AM


DoD is avoiding specifics and vaguely hinting to a larger plan because he
can't argue the specifics. He's being intellectually dishonest.

No .... I have posted about this a gazillion times. I am sick of re
posting it... If you want to know read through ARI archives...
.




User: "not_over_the_hill"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 12:24:25 PM
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 17:19:13 GMT, "The Department of Defense"
<thecats@ss.mil> wrote:


"Kel" <osterman@NO.THANKS.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qKggb.4540$ee6.2585@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...


"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f8185f0_2@news.athenanews.com...


"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f81700c_1@127.0.0.1...

(Snip)

Course I'm not antiwar - just anti-agression. War's fine when need.

Not so

fine when pursued from desire rather than necessity.


And in this case it is a neccessity....


Sorry?! In what way was this war "a neccessity"?


*sighs* Use your imagination...

Two choices:
1. DoD was AFRAID of Sadaam
2. Sharon ordered the "hit"
.
User: "The Department of Defense"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 12:32:20 PM

Two choices:

1. DoD was AFRAID of Sadaam
2. Sharon ordered the "hit"

Fat Jew responds with another third grade remark.....
.




User: "kuff \Isaac Adams"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 10:31:00 AM
"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f8185f0_2@news.athenanews.com...


"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f81700c_1@127.0.0.1...

"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:EJ6gb.10155$pg7.3549@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

Gracias Mr. Kincaid... but like you have written to me...it wont make a

damn

bit of difference to the antiwar crowd.... :-(


It makes a difference to me DoD. The argument appears to be "see, if

they just

lie back they'll enjoy it".


I wonder how many times the Hussein kids thought the same thing?

Course I'm not antiwar - just anti-agression. War's fine when need.

Not so

fine when pursued from desire rather than necessity.


And in this case it is a neccessity....

Um, I'm not seeing that. It's not clear how Iraq was an imminent threat.
Even Saddam's neighbors weren't worried about him and you'd think they'd know.
The argument is not about whether Saddam was a bad guy. The US walked up to
him on the street and shot him. No, it's worse than that. After keeping
Saddam "in a box" (per Colin Powell in 2001) for 10+ years the US lifted the lid
on the box and shot him. Because it desired to.
.
User: "The Department of Defense"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 10:47:25 AM

Um, I'm not seeing that. It's not clear how Iraq was an imminent threat.
Even Saddam's neighbors weren't worried about him and you'd think they'd

know.


The argument is not about whether Saddam was a bad guy. The US walked up

to

him on the street and shot him. No, it's worse than that. After

keeping

Saddam "in a box" (per Colin Powell in 2001) for 10+ years the US lifted

the lid

on the box and shot him. Because it desired to.

Oh come on Big Daddy Kuff (sic) ..... why are you gonna try and argue with
*me* about this again..... Its fine if you wanna argue with the *sound
biters* about imminent threats.... You ought to know by now that I am not
looking at this like that... I am watching this as a *whole scope* of the
war on terrorism.... you know.... 20 to 30 moves ahead... not just get rid
of al-quaeda type thing.
.
User: "kuff \Isaac Adams"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 11:09:42 AM
"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f819007$1_8@news.athenanews.com...


Um, I'm not seeing that. It's not clear how Iraq was an imminent threat.
Even Saddam's neighbors weren't worried about him and you'd think they'd

know.


The argument is not about whether Saddam was a bad guy. The US walked up

to

him on the street and shot him. No, it's worse than that. After

keeping

Saddam "in a box" (per Colin Powell in 2001) for 10+ years the US lifted

the lid

on the box and shot him. Because it desired to.


Oh come on Big Daddy Kuff (sic) ..... why are you gonna try and argue with
*me* about this again..... Its fine if you wanna argue with the *sound
biters* about imminent threats.... You ought to know by now that I am not
looking at this like that... I am watching this as a *whole scope* of the
war on terrorism.... you know.... 20 to 30 moves ahead... not just get rid
of al-quaeda type thing.

I know you are DoD. You are acting cold bloodedly. Most folks in the world,
I'm guessing, understand Afghanistan. But when the blood cooled and then you
went on to invade Iraq, well, that's far worse.
In other words, you didn't walk up to the guy and shoot him because you were
angry but because you were not.
Pretty chilling when you think about it.
.
User: "The Department of Defense"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 11:41:38 AM


I know you are DoD. You are acting cold bloodedly. Most folks in the

world,

I'm guessing, understand Afghanistan. But when the blood cooled and then

you

went on to invade Iraq, well, that's far worse.

In other words, you didn't walk up to the guy and shoot him because you

were

angry but because you were not.

Pretty chilling when you think about it.

:::::Sighs:::::
Of Course I am angry .... at these terrorists..... 9/11 was the culmonation
of it all....Not just OBLs group but all these Islamic chimps that have
grown bolder and bolder over the years.... Some of us Americans have a
better memory including keeping 400 of us hostage in Iran , barracks
bombings, hijackings including: <go to the end for the rest of my comments>
July 1968 -- Three Palestinian guerrillas seized an Israeli El-Al plane in
Rome on July 23 and forced it to Algiers. Algeria held 22 Israeli hostages
and the plane. It freed the plane and the final 12 hostages after 40 days in
captivity in return for Israel's release of 16 Palestinians.
Sept 1970 -- Palestinian guerrillas hijacked three airliners -- one TWA, one
Swissair and one BOAC -- forcing them to land in Jordan where the planes
were blown up. All hostages were released in exchange for Palestinan
prisoners.
July 1976 -- Four hijackers took an Air France Airbus with 244 passengers
and 12 crew. All but 105 Israeli and Jewish hostages were released before
arrival at Entebbe, Uganda. Seven days later Israeli commandos staged a
rescue operation killing the hijackers. Three passengers were killed.
Oct 1977 -- Four Palestinian guerrillas hijacked a German Lufthansa
airliner. The pilot was killed before the five-day ordeal ended at Mogadishu
when West German commandos stormed the plane, killing three hijackers and
freeing 86 hostages.
Feb 1978 -- Two Arab guerrillas seized an airliner at Larnaca, Cyprus.
Egyptian commandos flew in uninvited to try to storm the plane during
negotiations. Cyprus National Guardsmen resisted them and 15 Egyptians died
in a 45-minute battle.
June 1985 -- Two Lebanese Shi'ite gunmen hijacked a TWA flight from Athens
with 153 aboard. Syrian mediation helped end the hijack 16 days later when
the last 39 hostages were freed at Beirut airport. One American was shot
dead during the hijack.
Nov 1985 -- Palestinians hijacked an Egyptair plane to Malta. Egyptian
commandos stormed the plane and 59 people were killed.
Sept 1986 -- Pakistani forces stormed a Pan Am Boeing 747 with 400
passengers and crew, killing 22 people and ending a 16-hour siege after four
Palestinian guerrillas boarded in Karachi.
April 1988 -- Five Arab gunmen seized a Kuwait Airways 747 carrying 115
passengers and killed two Kuwaitis. The hijacking ended on April 20 in
Algiers.
Dec 1994 -- Four Muslim fundamentalist gunmen seized an Air France Airbus
300 with 227 passengers and 12 crew. After hijackers killed three people and
released 63, the plane flew to Marseilles, where paramilitary forces stormed
it, killing the four hijackers and wounding 25 people.
Nov 1996 -- At least 125 people were killed when a hijacked Ethiopian
Airlines jet crashed in the Indian Ocean. There were 175 people aboard.
Dec 1999 -- Six hijackers seized an Indian Airlines plane flying from Nepal
to New Delhi with 183 passengers and crew. Hijackers released 28 hostages
and the body of one man stabbed to death. They freed the remaining 154
hostages after India agreed to release three jailed Kashmiri militants.
July 2000 -- A Syrian exploded a grenade on a Jordanian airliner during a
failed hijacking. The man, who wanted to go to Germany to seek asylum, was
shot dead after his stun grenade wounded 15 passengers.
March, 2001 -- A Russian Vnukovo Airlines Tupolev 154 en route from Istanbul
to Moscow with 162 passengers and 12 crew was forced to fly to Saudi Arabia
after hijackers demanding an end to war in rebel Chechnya seized the plane.
Saudi commandos raided the plane at Medina, killing one hijacker. A Russian
flight attendant and a Turkish passenger were killed.
See this has been let to slide for way to long..... Its going to require
alot of multiple ***** beatings ...... like it or not Kuff *your guys* started
it....
.
User: "kuff \Isaac Adams"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 12:35:19 PM
"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f819cc7_7@news.athenanews.com...



I know you are DoD. You are acting cold bloodedly. Most folks in the

world,

I'm guessing, understand Afghanistan. But when the blood cooled and then

you

went on to invade Iraq, well, that's far worse.

In other words, you didn't walk up to the guy and shoot him because you

were

angry but because you were not.

Pretty chilling when you think about it.


:::::Sighs:::::

Of Course I am angry .... at these terrorists..... 9/11 was the culmonation
of it all....Not just OBLs group but all these Islamic chimps that have
grown bolder and bolder over the years.... Some of us Americans have a
better memory including keeping 400 of us hostage in Iran , barracks
bombings, hijackings including: <go to the end for the rest of my comments>

July 1968 -- Three Palestinian guerrillas seized an Israeli El-Al plane in
Rome on July 23 and forced it to Algiers. Algeria held 22 Israeli hostages
and the plane. It freed the plane and the final 12 hostages after 40 days in
captivity in return for Israel's release of 16 Palestinians.

Sept 1970 -- Palestinian guerrillas hijacked three airliners -- one TWA, one
Swissair and one BOAC -- forcing them to land in Jordan where the planes
were blown up. All hostages were released in exchange for Palestinan
prisoners.

July 1976 -- Four hijackers took an Air France Airbus with 244 passengers
and 12 crew. All but 105 Israeli and Jewish hostages were released before
arrival at Entebbe, Uganda. Seven days later Israeli commandos staged a
rescue operation killing the hijackers. Three passengers were killed.

Oct 1977 -- Four Palestinian guerrillas hijacked a German Lufthansa
airliner. The pilot was killed before the five-day ordeal ended at Mogadishu
when West German commandos stormed the plane, killing three hijackers and
freeing 86 hostages.

Feb 1978 -- Two Arab guerrillas seized an airliner at Larnaca, Cyprus.
Egyptian commandos flew in uninvited to try to storm the plane during
negotiations. Cyprus National Guardsmen resisted them and 15 Egyptians died
in a 45-minute battle.

June 1985 -- Two Lebanese Shi'ite gunmen hijacked a TWA flight from Athens
with 153 aboard. Syrian mediation helped end the hijack 16 days later when
the last 39 hostages were freed at Beirut airport. One American was shot
dead during the hijack.

Nov 1985 -- Palestinians hijacked an Egyptair plane to Malta. Egyptian
commandos stormed the plane and 59 people were killed.

Sept 1986 -- Pakistani forces stormed a Pan Am Boeing 747 with 400
passengers and crew, killing 22 people and ending a 16-hour siege after four
Palestinian guerrillas boarded in Karachi.

April 1988 -- Five Arab gunmen seized a Kuwait Airways 747 carrying 115
passengers and killed two Kuwaitis. The hijacking ended on April 20 in
Algiers.

Dec 1994 -- Four Muslim fundamentalist gunmen seized an Air France Airbus
300 with 227 passengers and 12 crew. After hijackers killed three people and
released 63, the plane flew to Marseilles, where paramilitary forces stormed
it, killing the four hijackers and wounding 25 people.

Nov 1996 -- At least 125 people were killed when a hijacked Ethiopian
Airlines jet crashed in the Indian Ocean. There were 175 people aboard.

Dec 1999 -- Six hijackers seized an Indian Airlines plane flying from Nepal
to New Delhi with 183 passengers and crew. Hijackers released 28 hostages
and the body of one man stabbed to death. They freed the remaining 154
hostages after India agreed to release three jailed Kashmiri militants.

July 2000 -- A Syrian exploded a grenade on a Jordanian airliner during a
failed hijacking. The man, who wanted to go to Germany to seek asylum, was
shot dead after his stun grenade wounded 15 passengers.

March, 2001 -- A Russian Vnukovo Airlines Tupolev 154 en route from Istanbul
to Moscow with 162 passengers and 12 crew was forced to fly to Saudi Arabia
after hijackers demanding an end to war in rebel Chechnya seized the plane.
Saudi commandos raided the plane at Medina, killing one hijacker. A Russian
flight attendant and a Turkish passenger were killed.

See this has been let to slide for way to long..... Its going to require
alot of multiple ***** beatings ...... like it or not Kuff *your guys* started
it....

My guys? Why do you try so hard to miss the simple, obvious fact that you are
supposed to be my guys?
And I scanned the list above but must've missed the Iraqi terrorists. Not only
are you doing the wrong thing, you shot the wrong guy.
Maybe Iraq is supposed to be a demo? That's even nastier than being cold
blooded.
.
User: "The Department of Defense"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 01:06:49 PM


And I scanned the list above but must've missed the Iraqi terrorists.

Not only

are you doing the wrong thing, you shot the wrong guy.

Maybe Iraq is supposed to be a demo? That's even nastier than being cold
blooded.

:::::::: Sighs again::::::::::::: THE WHOLE region has problems ... thats
why I said dont try and argue with me about it .... I am looking at the
WHOLE SCOPE...... Dictatorless Iraq is JUST the START........
.
User: "kuff \Isaac Adams"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 01:29:54 PM
"The Department of Defense" <thecats@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:3f81b0b0_2@news.athenanews.com...



And I scanned the list above but must've missed the Iraqi terrorists.

Not only

are you doing the wrong thing, you shot the wrong guy.

Maybe Iraq is supposed to be a demo? That's even nastier than being cold
blooded.


:::::::: Sighs again::::::::::::: THE WHOLE region has problems ... thats
why I said dont try and argue with me about it .... I am looking at the
WHOLE SCOPE...... Dictatorless Iraq is JUST the START........

Thanks for your patience. I appreciate your directness.
.








User: "jackkincaid"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 01:21:39 PM
"kuff \(Isaac Adams\)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3f81700c_1@127.0.0.1>...

The argument appears to be "see, if they just
lie back they'll enjoy it".

My argument is, there's good and bad out there, and the good probably
outweighs the bad, so don't believe the people who say it's all a
disaster.
.



User: "Crusader Wabbit"

Title: Re: What's really happening in Iraq - Please read 06 Oct 2003 10:39:37 AM
Interestingly, she was also a close associate of David Friend, the British
weapons expert who suicided a few months ago. Small world, eh ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3197123.stm
"jackkincaid" <theovermind@another.com> wrote in message
news:eb35fbed.0310051514.769141a4@posting.google.com...

Award-winning Observer corespondent Julie Flint has just returned from
Iraq. Her report in the Obs this Sunday was by no means entirely
supportive of the invasion, liberation and occupation, but is at least
free of the taint of guilt, cant and thoughtless anti-Americanism.

Please read, especially if you're an American, with doubts about the
moral purpose of the invasion:

Julie Flint
Sunday October 5, 2003
The Observer <http://www.observer.co.uk>

Half a century ago, in a blistering denunciation of the Korean war,
the British war correspondent Reginald Thompson wrote: 'It was clear
that there was something profoundly disturbing about this campaign and
something profoundly disturbing about its commander-in-chief.'
Thompson's words could equally well apply to the US-led campaign in
Iraq and its commander-in-chief: George W. Bush, head of a cabal that
seeks to install a client regime in Iraq as a first step to bringing
the region under American-Israeli control.

As last week's report by the Iraqi Survey Group makes clear, the
stated rationale for the Anglo-American war - destruction of Saddam
Hussein's weapons of mass destruction - was at best exaggerated and at
worst plain wrong. There was a case for deposing Saddam, the Pol Pot
of the Arab world, but it was not the case made by George Bush and
Tony Blair. They could have pleaded Saddam's past use of WMD against
his own people; the present threat, from his security services, to
every Iraqi man, woman and child; the future threat from WMD, and
biological weapons in particular, for, as the ISG report also makes
clear, Saddam was concealing work on two BW agents and conducting new
research into two others. But they didn't. Their unilateral war may
make Iraq more safe, but the wider world less so. Disturbing, indeed.

But there is something disturbing, too, about the way that post-war
Iraq has been portrayed. Visceral distrust of Bush/Blair has created a
disregard both for fact and for the victims of Saddam. Arab
commentators have had no shame in urging Iraqis, exhausted by three
wars and more than a decade of sanctions, to launch a new war 'of
liberation' against their liberators. Western commentators have
luxuriated in the setbacks of the Coalition Provisional Authority
(CPA), as if wishing failure upon it - and by extension, the Iraqi
people.

Disaster has been prophesied, self-servingly, at every turn: the war
would be long (it wasn't, and most Iraqis had no direct experience of
it); tens of thousands would die in the battle for Baghdad (they
didn't); there would be a fully-fledged humanitarian disaster (there
wasn't). Now, we are told, Iraqis fear the very real prospect of civil
war. Not those I know. Not yet. Nor those polled in Baghdad last month
by Gallup: 62 per cent thought getting rid of Saddam was worth the
suffering they've endured; 67 per cent thought their lives will be
better five years from now.

From the very beginning, the anti-war lobby has refused to listen to
those Iraqis who supported war over continued tyranny. Banners saying
'Freedom for Iraq' were confiscated at anti-war rallies and
photographs of Halabja, where Saddam gassed 5,000 Kurdish civilians,
were seized. No voice was given to people such as Freshta Raper, who
lost 21 relatives in Halabja and wanted to ask: 'How many of you have
asked an Iraqi mother how she felt when forced to watch her son being
executed? How many know that these mothers had to applaud as their
sons died? What is more moral: freeing an oppressed, brutalised people
from a vicious tyrant or allowing millions to continue suffering
indefinitely?'
In the summer I spent more than a month in Iraq. What I found did not
correspond to what was being reported - most crucially, that the
liberators were already widely denounced as occupiers. As a rule, that
simply wasn't true.

In Baghdad, where US forces had permitted looting (although not as
much as reported) and where security and services were virtually
non-existent, attitudes towards the Americans were mixed. But even in
Baghdad, even with Saddam and his sons still at large, the sense of
relief at the toppling of the regime was palpable.

A university lecturer living above a bakery where colleagues were
burned alive told me: 'I feel as if I have been born again. Iraq was a
prison above ground and a mass grave beneath it.'

Outside Baghdad, in the Shia south, the mood was overwhelmingly
upbeat. In Basra, ordinary people gave the thumbs-up at the mere sight
of a Brit. In Najaf, a waiter blew kisses.

The occupying forces admittedly got off to a wretched start. In
stressing stability, the first US administrator, General Jay Garner,
opened the doors of the new Iraq to discredited servants of the old
Iraq. His successor, Paul Bremer, went to the opposite extreme,
disbanding the entire Iraqi army and in so doing making enemies of
half a million serving and retired officers and NCOs.

But Bremer has belatedly accepted the need for greater reliance on
Iraqis in the field of security - more than 55,000 are now enrolled in
law-enforcement services - and has set about transforming a bankrupt
economy burdened with a Stalinist industrial structure and three
decades of mismanagement.

He has yet to announce a timetable for restoring sovereignty to
Iraqis. But he has ushered in an Iraqi governing council that embraces
a range of opinion unequalled in the Arab and Muslim worlds, and an
Iraqi cabinet that is not without virtue. 'These are people who have
been to Harvard, Oxford and MIT... educated people!' says an Iraqi
archaeologist who opposed the war. 'Some of Saddam's Ministers hadn't
got beyond primary school.' All Iraqi cities and 85 per cent of towns
have fully functioning municipalities. The nine district councils of
Baghdad that form the city council meet regularly and appear to work
harmoniously.

'The degree of transparency and cooperation in the work of the council
is impressive,' says Rend Rahim Francke of the Iraq Foundation, a
non-governmental organisation working for democracy and human rights.
'Self-government, long advocated for Iraq, appears to be working well
when put into practice.'
For the first time in almost half a century, Iraq has no executions,
no political prisoners, no torture and almost no limits on freedom of
expression. Having a satellite receiver no longer means imprisonment
or even death. There are almost 200 newspapers and magazines that
require no police permit and suffer no censorship, and more than 70
political parties and dozens of NGOs. Old professional associations
have held elections and new associations have sprung up. People can
demonstrate freely - and do.

Unemployment is still a huge problem, but more people have jobs and
salaries have risen both for qualified people seeking work in the
private sector and for civil servants. Shops are overflowing with
imported goods. Food prices are lower thanin Saddam's last years. In
Baghdad, the electricity is on more often than off. (In Lebanon, that
took years to achieve.) More Iraqi policemen are on the streets,
directing traffic, guarding buildings and enforcing the law.
Approximately 85 per cent of primary and secondary schools have
reopened. Outside Baghdad, security and services are better and crime
is lower.

Western reporters detail, quite properly, the misdeeds, the crimes
even, of the occupying forces. But this is only part of the story.
'The behaviour of US occupation troops has indeed at times been
unacceptable, but on many more occasions it has been innocuous,' says
Mustafa Alrawi, managing editor of English-language weekly Iraq Today.
One line being peddled today is that there is growing popular support
for a war of resistance against the CPA and Iraqis working with it.
The number of violent deaths is unacceptable - among Americans and
Iraqis alike - but this doesn't mean that there is a popular Iraqi
resistance.

Iraq is not Vietnam. At the root of the current instability are the
very people most Iraqis reject - the remnants of Saddam's Baath party,
and extremists flooding in from neighbouring countries in hope of
establishing religious rule. They, not the liberators/occupiers, are
the real threat to peace in Iraq and stability in the wider region
today.

.


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