| Topic: |
Politics > Politics-USA |
| User: |
"Robert Henderson" |
| Date: |
14 Sep 2003 02:28:00 PM |
| Object: |
Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
What the nation state owes you and what you owe the nation
state
Robert Henderson
The first duty a democratic government owes is to those it
represents. Before this duty all other considerations become
secondary. That is the easy part of the process of
definition. The difficult part is how should that duty be
realised?
It makes moral and prudential sense for any society to
both secure the loyalty of its citizens with guaranteed
privileges which are not extended to non-citizens and to
generally reduce the opportunities for social friction. In a
free society where the individual has to decide to give his
or her loyalty, the utility of such privileges is much
greater than it would be in a dictatorship. In a democracy
it makes not merely sense but is a moral imperative for a
government to secure and better the condition of its
constituent people.
The modern industrialised nation state such as Britain does
indeed confer great privileges on those who are part of it.
It provides a secure environment based on the rule of law,
a decent material standard of living, healthcare and
education free at the point of use and, in the form of the
welfare state, a safety net for those who fall on hard times.
It is, in short, a very efficient life support system which
most people in the world are desperate to become part of by
hook or by crook.
Meaningful citizenship equals duties plus privileges
But giving privileges without any obligations attached is an
empty act. If privileges are taken for granted then a major
part of their purpose is lost, the securing of a citizen's
loyalty. Unfortunately, that is precisely what the currently
dominant liberal internationalist ideology does, give
privileges without anything being asked in return. Worse, it
gives such privileges not only to citizens but huge numbers
of non-citizens.
Liberal internationalists say, in so many words, that a man
may live anywhere he wishes and owe no particular allegiance
to any place or society. In this fantasy world the entire
world, or in reality the First World, is a milch cow to
milked by whoever can get near to it.
In practice, all that is required by the liberal
internationalist of the citizen is observation of the law in
the country in which the person lives. They have developed
the idea of the world as a place of undifferentiated
settlement, a very dangerous idea both for them and those who
feel differently. No sense of place, no place.
Treating a country simply as a convenient place of residence
is a recipe for national disaster. Ultimately a nation state
only exists because its inhabitants both have a shared sense
of identity and a willingness to defend the interests of the
country, including in extremis fighting for the country.
The consequence of the internationalist mentality is a lack
of any moral system to cover general behaviour. People
normally act in a moral way only towards the group with which
they have a sense of shared identity. For most people in the
world, this means the family or tribe. Only those states
which have created a larger community of perceived interest
have developed a general morality which is normally observed.
In short, a strong society must have a shared sense of its
worth. In a healthy society this sense of worth simply exists
and children imbibe it unconsciously. In an unhealthy one it
needs to be consciously engendered.
I have already listed the benefits which British citizenship
confers. But these have been steadily eroded over the past
fifty years by mass immigration, the movement towards free
trade and the growth of international treaty obligations,
most notably Britain's membership of the European Union. The
effect of these changes has been to increase social discord
by (1) introducing foreign and unassimilated elements into
British society, (2) exporting jobs and (3) passing effective
political control on many major issues from Westminster to
bodies such as Nato and the WT0 or the EU Commission. The
nation state has failed the British in these matters. Thus,
we can see that the state owes more to its citizens than such
things as maintaining order, defending its borders and
providing welfare provision. It must provide the social
structure within which they can be achieved.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
maintenance of a clear distinction between countryman and
foreigner. That requires a strict control of immigration.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
right to sell their labour for the price it will fetch within
the confines of the native population.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
protection of industry and commerce both to provide
employment and for the strategic reasons of self sufficiency
in vital goods and services.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
spending of their taxes in ways which only benefit citizens.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to those who are not
citizens only the equal protection of the law.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
maintenance of democratic institutions.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
promotion of its culture and history above all other cultures
and histories.
The duties of the citizen
The citizen should instinctively give preference to his
fellow citizens.
The citizen should not see himself as part of a group which
owes its first loyalty to any group or power outside the
state.
The citizen should be willing to sacrifice his own interests
where these clash with the interests of the nation, for
example, be willing to fight and die if the homeland is
attacked or, more prosaically, to forego economic advantage
where this removes jobs from the country.
Generally, the citizen should always act to protect the
interest of the nation. The interest of the nation can be
normally determined by simply reducing any given national
choice to the analogy of a personal and asking what the
individual would do in such circumstances.
The citizen should always think of the nation in the context
of its history and the realistic threats to it.
What the enduring democratic nation state cannot be
It cannot be subsumed in something politically greater than
itself.
It cannot be a mishmash of competing cultures.
It cannot be constantly besieged by masses of immigrants.
What an enduring democratic nation state must be
Culturally homogeneous.
Law abiding.
Self confident.
Aware of its past.
At peace with itself and its place in the world.
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
|
|
| User: "dormouse" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
14 Sep 2003 02:47:49 PM |
|
|
<aol mode>Very well put Robert</aol mode>
--
regards
dormouse
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robert Henderson" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
15 Sep 2003 12:57:59 AM |
|
|
In article <bk2h33$o7v2v$1@ID-163332.news.uni-berlin.de>, dormouse
<bounce@britwar.co.uk> writes
<aol mode>Very well put Robert</aol mode>
Thanks. Just a few initial thoughts. I will expand it. RH
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "abelard" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
14 Sep 2003 07:35:32 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:47:49 +0100, "dormouse" <bounce@britwar.co.uk>
typed:
<aol mode>Very well put Robert</aol mode>
put him where?
regards...
--
web site at www.abelard.org - news and comment service, logic,
politics, ethics, education, etc >600,000 document calls yearly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
|
|
|
| User: "Joe Hutcheon" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
16 Sep 2003 11:47:54 AM |
|
|
abelard <abelard@abelard.org> wrote in message news:<9vv9mvcsbp3boa5mrf1h91pn8rditqtlmq@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:47:49 +0100, "dormouse" <bounce@britwar.co.uk>
typed:
<aol mode>Very well put Robert</aol mode>
put him where?
In the well?
.
|
|
|
| User: "abelard" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
16 Sep 2003 02:06:11 PM |
|
|
On 16 Sep 2003 09:47:54 -0700, (Joe Hutcheon)
typed:
abelard <abelard@abelard.org> wrote in message news:<9vv9mvcsbp3boa5mrf1h91pn8rditqtlmq@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:47:49 +0100, "dormouse" <bounce@britwar.co.uk>
typed:
<aol mode>Very well put Robert</aol mode>
put him where?
In the well?
i thought that was *****....
surely the hallway or moneypenny's office would be more fitting....
regards....
--
web site at www.abelard.org - news and comment service, logic,
politics, ethics, education, etc >600,000 document calls yearly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robert Henderson" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
16 Sep 2003 04:56:17 PM |
|
|
In article <0skemv4vb48cl5blb1pol5i5o79762mkfe@4ax.com>, abelard
<abelard@abelard.org> writes
On 16 Sep 2003 09:47:54 -0700, (Joe Hutcheon)
typed:
abelard <abelard@abelard.org> wrote in message news:<9vv9mvcsbp3boa5mrf1h91pn8r
ditqtlmq@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:47:49 +0100, "dormouse" <bounce@britwar.co.uk>
typed:
<aol mode>Very well put Robert</aol mode>
put him where?
In the well?
i thought that was *****....
What would an ancient valve computer circa 1947 know about pussies? RH
surely the hallway or moneypenny's office would be more fitting....
regards....
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dirk Bruere at Neopax" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
14 Sep 2003 03:36:42 PM |
|
|
"Al" <al@lgeezer.net> wrote in message
news:bk2iqc$414$1$830fa795@news.demon.co.uk...
"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:BI26ecAAFMZ$Ewth@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
The duties of the citizen
The citizen should instinctively give preference to his
fellow citizens.
No. I give preference to those who are related to me, some of whom are not
'fellow citizens'.
Then I give preference to those are like me, many of whom are not only
fellow citizens, but haven't even visited this country.
'Fellow citizens' can wait their turn.
The citizen should not see himself as part of a group which
owes its first loyalty to any group or power outside the
state.
Rubbish. At the very least, family is vastly more important.
The citizen should be willing to sacrifice his own interests
where these clash with the interests of the nation, for
example, be willing to fight and die if the homeland is
attacked or, more prosaically, to forego economic advantage
where this removes jobs from the country.
Maybe the former, but the latter could be straight from the mouth of Ned
Ludd.
Generally, the citizen should always act to protect the
interest of the nation. The interest of the nation can be
normally determined by simply reducing any given national
choice to the analogy of a personal and asking what the
individual would do in such circumstances.
No. Where the nation is at fault during peacetime, the citizen should act
contrary to its interest.
The nation is seldom at fault - it's nearly always the govt.
And loyalty to the nation is not the same as loyalty to the govt.
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
14 Sep 2003 04:12:41 PM |
|
|
Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
"Al" <al@lgeezer.net> wrote in message
news:bk2iqc$414$1$830fa795@news.demon.co.uk...
"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:BI26ecAAFMZ$Ewth@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
Generally, the citizen should always act to protect
the
interest of the nation. The interest of the nation can
be
normally determined by simply reducing any given
national
choice to the analogy of a personal and asking what
the
individual would do in such circumstances.
No. Where the nation is at fault during peacetime, the citizen should act
contrary to its interest.
The nation is seldom at fault - it's nearly always the govt.
And loyalty to the nation is not the same as loyalty to the govt.
Duh on me! Of course, you're right.
--
Al
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Steve Glynn" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
15 Sep 2003 07:39:16 AM |
|
|
"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:BI26ecAAFMZ$Ewth@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
What the nation state owes you and what you owe the nation
state
Robert Henderson
The first duty a democratic government owes is to those it
represents. Before this duty all other considerations become
secondary. That is the easy part of the process of
definition. The difficult part is how should that duty be
realised?
There's loads in this post with which I'd like to take issue, but initially
I'll confine myself to the following few points;
It makes moral and prudential sense for any society to
both secure the loyalty of its citizens with guaranteed
privileges which are not extended to non-citizens and to
generally reduce the opportunities for social friction. In a
free society where the individual has to decide to give his
or her loyalty, the utility of such privileges is much
greater than it would be in a dictatorship. In a democracy
it makes not merely sense but is a moral imperative for a
government to secure and better the condition of its
constituent people.
You've just undermined the basis of much of your following argument.
AFAIAC (and I think at one level you'd agree with this proposition) it's not
up to me to decide whether or not I'm loyal to Britain. I'm a British
citizen, and consequently I don't get to choose whether I owe my loyalties
to Britain or France depending who might grant me the greater privileges in
return for my loyalty. Were I French I'd not have much choice either.
If I felt any other way, I'd be treating Britain as ' simply as a
convenient place of residence', as you put it (rather as Rupert Murdoch has
done with Australian, then British, and now American citizenship, depending
on which best suits his interests as owner of News International or as did
Zola Budd when she wanted to compete in the Olympics). I'd no more dream
of trying to change my citizenship because I might get a better deal from
the Americans or the Australians or someone than would you.
Most -- not all, but most -- people I know who've taken up British
citizenship have been very conscious of the responsibilities they're taking
on.
The modern industrialised nation state such as Britain does
indeed confer great privileges on those who are part of it.
It provides a secure environment based on the rule of law,
a decent material standard of living, healthcare and
education free at the point of use and, in the form of the
welfare state, a safety net for those who fall on hard times.
It is, in short, a very efficient life support system which
most people in the world are desperate to become part of by
hook or by crook.
Meaningful citizenship equals duties plus privileges
But giving privileges without any obligations attached is an
empty act. If privileges are taken for granted then a major
part of their purpose is lost, the securing of a citizen's
loyalty. Unfortunately, that is precisely what the currently
dominant liberal internationalist ideology does, give
privileges without anything being asked in return. Worse, it
gives such privileges not only to citizens but huge numbers
of non-citizens.
Liberal internationalists say, in so many words, that a man
may live anywhere he wishes and owe no particular allegiance
to any place or society. In this fantasy world the entire
world, or in reality the First World, is a milch cow to
milked by whoever can get near to it.
In practice, all that is required by the liberal
internationalist of the citizen is observation of the law in
the country in which the person lives. They have developed
the idea of the world as a place of undifferentiated
settlement, a very dangerous idea both for them and those who
feel differently. No sense of place, no place.
Hmm. Not completely sure about this. I worked in California for a couple
of years, and very enjoyable it was, too. I had a very distinct sense of
place there, just as John/Juan (Spanish mum, English dad), the father of my
Godson Antony, has a very distinct sense of place about both Barcelona and
London (which he regards as home) and his wife, Sophie (French) has a very
distinct sense of place about both Paris and London (which she regards as
home, too).
<snip>
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
promotion of its culture and history above all other cultures
and histories.
The duties of the citizen
The citizen should instinctively give preference to his
fellow citizens.
The citizen should not see himself as part of a group which
owes its first loyalty to any group or power outside the
state.
Tripe. You've just managed to exclude members of any religious tradition
(including the Church of England) from true citizenship of anywhere. I
have it on the highest authority that I should render unto Caesar the things
which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's, and ultimately
even I know who takes precedence.
You might want to consider the words of that great patriotic hymn,
'I vow to thee, my country, —all _earthly things_ [my emphasis] above—
Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love;
[,,,,]
And _there’s another country_ [again, my emphasis], I’ve heard of long ago—
_Most_ dear to them that love her, _most great_ [my emphases again] to
them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;'
It's nothing to do with religion in particular. I'm willing to bet that
were you and I to have the misfortune to find ourselves on a sinking ship or
in a house on fire we'd both be shouting 'Women and Children First!' rather
than 'Let's see your passports, then'.
Furthermore,
The citizen should be willing to sacrifice his own interests
where these clash with the interests of the nation, for
example, be willing to fight and die if the homeland is
attacked or, more prosaically, to forego economic advantage
where this removes jobs from the country.
False comparison, though a fine flourish. I fail to see any particular
comparison between being prepared to fight and die for one's country and
buying New Zealand rather than British lamb for a Sunday roast. though the
latter will doubtless disadvantage British sheep farmers.
Generally, the citizen should always act to protect the
interest of the nation. The interest of the nation can be
normally determined by simply reducing any given national
choice to the analogy of a personal and asking what the
individual would do in such circumstances.
Yet more tripe. You're conflating the individual with the nation. It
might well be in your or my interests to put all our money into Acme Novelty
Company shares and sell them off when they seem about to peak, but if the
whole nation so did the economy would collapse.
Despite the picture on the front of Leviathan (and Thomas Hobbes is one of
my favourite political philosophers) any country anywhere, outside of
propaganda for Mao's China, always comprises various political and economic
groups with interests that sometimes coincide and sometimes conflict.
The citizen should always think of the nation in the context
of its history and the realistic threats to it.
Ossa upon Pelion of tripe!
We can agree upon when certain things happened in British history as a
matter of historical fact -- joining the Common Market, or whatever. That,
though, is not what you mean. What you mean, I think, is that the citizen
should always read history in the same way, or, in other words, share the
same political and ideological understanding of it.
Hmm. Where have I heard this line of argument before? Germany? Russia?
What the enduring democratic nation state cannot be
It cannot be subsumed in something politically greater than
itself.
It cannot be a mishmash of competing cultures.
Do you know, I've never yet met anyone whose culture is 'competing' with
mine, in the way that Oxford and Cambridge compete in the Boat Race. In
fact, I'm not sure how such a competition between cultures might be
organised.
If your point is not an ill-thought-out metaphore, could you please explain
what you mean?
It cannot be constantly besieged by masses of immigrants.
What an enduring democratic nation state must be
Culturally homogeneous.
A state of affairs which has never been known to exist anywhere on this
planet in recorded history. I wouldn't describe myself as being
particularly 'culturally homogeneous' with my parents, let alone anyone
else, and I doubt anyone else would claim they were 'culturally homogeneous'
with their parents or siblings either unless we're using 'homogenous' in a
way I've never yet heard it used.
Law abiding.
Agreed.
Self confident.
Not sure what you mean by this. You're conflating individuals with
cultures again. How does a culture, rather than an individual, go about
being 'self-confident' for God's sake? And while those who know and love
me will mostly agree I'm self-confident (some might say downright bloody
arrogant), that self-confidence has to be based on a willingness to learn by
mistakes and an acute awareness that one can always be wrong, otherwise it
turns into mania.
Aware of its past.
At peace with itself and its place in the world.
Oh, give the culture a good dinner and a spliff or a couple of large
brandies, then. That'll probably do the trick. Usually works for me.
Steve
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robert Henderson" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
15 Sep 2003 09:25:54 AM |
|
|
In article <poi9b.187$YL1.198456@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>, Steve
Glynn <steveglynn@ntlworld.com> writes
It makes moral and prudential sense for any society to
both secure the loyalty of its citizens with guaranteed
privileges which are not extended to non-citizens and to
generally reduce the opportunities for social friction. In a
free society where the individual has to decide to give his
or her loyalty, the utility of such privileges is much
greater than it would be in a dictatorship. In a democracy
it makes not merely sense but is a moral imperative for a
government to secure and better the condition of its
constituent people.
You've just undermined the basis of much of your following argument.
AFAIAC (and I think at one level you'd agree with this proposition) it's not
up to me to decide whether or not I'm loyal to Britain. I'm a British
citizen, and consequently I don't get to choose whether I owe my loyalties
to Britain or France depending who might grant me the greater privileges in
return for my loyalty. Were I French I'd not have much choice either.
You can go and take the citizenship of a country other than Britain and
give them your undivided loyalty. RH
If I felt any other way, I'd be treating Britain as ' simply as a
convenient place of residence', as you put it (rather as Rupert Murdoch has
done with Australian, then British, and now American citizenship, depending
on which best suits his interests as owner of News International or as did
Zola Budd when she wanted to compete in the Olympics). I'd no more dream
of trying to change my citizenship because I might get a better deal from
the Americans or the Australians or someone than would you.
Glad to hear it. RH
Most -- not all, but most -- people I know who've taken up British
citizenship have been very conscious of the responsibilities they're taking
on.
You must have met very few. The problem is beyond those who choose
citizenship because it extends to the disaffected who were born
citizens. RH
The modern industrialised nation state such as Britain does
indeed confer great privileges on those who are part of it.
It provides a secure environment based on the rule of law,
a decent material standard of living, healthcare and
education free at the point of use and, in the form of the
welfare state, a safety net for those who fall on hard times.
It is, in short, a very efficient life support system which
most people in the world are desperate to become part of by
hook or by crook.
Meaningful citizenship equals duties plus privileges
But giving privileges without any obligations attached is an
empty act. If privileges are taken for granted then a major
part of their purpose is lost, the securing of a citizen's
loyalty. Unfortunately, that is precisely what the currently
dominant liberal internationalist ideology does, give
privileges without anything being asked in return. Worse, it
gives such privileges not only to citizens but huge numbers
of non-citizens.
Liberal internationalists say, in so many words, that a man
may live anywhere he wishes and owe no particular allegiance
to any place or society. In this fantasy world the entire
world, or in reality the First World, is a milch cow to
milked by whoever can get near to it.
In practice, all that is required by the liberal
internationalist of the citizen is observation of the law in
the country in which the person lives. They have developed
the idea of the world as a place of undifferentiated
settlement, a very dangerous idea both for them and those who
feel differently. No sense of place, no place.
Hmm. Not completely sure about this. I worked in California for a couple
of years, and very enjoyable it was, too. I had a very distinct sense of
place there
You're the type of "citizen of the world" who has a sense of place
everywhere and nowhere. RH
, just as John/Juan (Spanish mum, English dad), the father of my
Godson Antony, has a very distinct sense of place about both Barcelona and
London (which he regards as home) and his wife, Sophie (French) has a very
distinct sense of place about both Paris and London (which she regards as
home, too).
<snip>
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
promotion of its culture and history above all other cultures
and histories.
The duties of the citizen
The citizen should instinctively give preference to his
fellow citizens.
The citizen should not see himself as part of a group which
owes its first loyalty to any group or power outside the
state.
Tripe. You've just managed to exclude members of any religious tradition
(including the Church of England) from true citizenship of anywhere.
How RH
I
have it on the highest authority that I should render unto Caesar the things
which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's, and ultimately
even I know who takes precedence.
But those things which are God's do not impinge on this worldly realm.
RH
You might want to consider the words of that great patriotic hymn,
'I vow to thee, my country, —all _earthly things_ [my emphasis] above—
Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love;
[,,,,]
And _there’s another country_ [again, my emphasis], I’ve heard of long ago—
_Most_ dear to them that love her, _most great_ [my emphases again] to
them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;'
I'm an unbeliever. Next! RH
It's nothing to do with religion in particular. I'm willing to bet that
were you and I to have the misfortune to find ourselves on a sinking ship or
in a house on fire we'd both be shouting 'Women and Children First!' rather
than 'Let's see your passports, then'.
Furthermore,
The citizen should be willing to sacrifice his own interests
where these clash with the interests of the nation, for
example, be willing to fight and die if the homeland is
attacked or, more prosaically, to forego economic advantage
where this removes jobs from the country.
False comparison, though a fine flourish. I fail to see any particular
comparison between being prepared to fight and die for one's country and
buying New Zealand rather than British lamb for a Sunday roast.
That is your blindness. RH
though the
latter will doubtless disadvantage British sheep farmers.
Generally, the citizen should always act to protect the
interest of the nation. The interest of the nation can be
normally determined by simply reducing any given national
choice to the analogy of a personal and asking what the
individual would do in such circumstances.
Yet more tripe. You're conflating the individual with the nation.
The nation is the totality of individuals. Next! RH
It
might well be in your or my interests to put all our money into Acme Novelty
Company shares and sell them off when they seem about to peak, but if the
whole nation so did the economy would collapse.
Despite the picture on the front of Leviathan (and Thomas Hobbes is one of
my favourite political philosophers) any country anywhere, outside of
propaganda for Mao's China, always comprises various political and economic
groups with interests that sometimes coincide and sometimes conflict.
The citizen should always think of the nation in the context
of its history and the realistic threats to it.
Ossa upon Pelion of tripe!
Translation: no meaningful objection. RH
We can agree upon when certain things happened in British history as a
matter of historical fact -- joining the Common Market, or whatever. That,
though, is not what you mean. What you mean, I think, is that the citizen
should always read history in the same way, or, in other words, share the
same political and ideological understanding of it.
Hmm. Where have I heard this line of argument before? Germany? Russia?
Anywhere which was not infected with the liberal bigot virus. RH
What the enduring democratic nation state cannot be
It cannot be subsumed in something politically greater than
itself.
It cannot be a mishmash of competing cultures.
Do you know, I've never yet met anyone whose culture is 'competing' with
mine,
That's because you are a liberal internationalist. Rh
in the way that Oxford and Cambridge compete in the Boat Race. In
fact, I'm not sure how such a competition between cultures might be
organised.
If your point is not an ill-thought-out metaphore, could you please explain
what you mean?
It cannot be constantly besieged by masses of immigrants.
What an enduring democratic nation state must be
Culturally homogeneous.
A state of affairs which has never been known to exist anywhere on this
planet in recorded history.
On the contrary, known in most places at most times. Tribes are by
definition homogenous. RH
I wouldn't describe myself as being
particularly 'culturally homogeneous' with my parents, let alone anyone
else, and I doubt anyone else would claim they were 'culturally homogeneous'
with their parents or siblings either unless we're using 'homogenous' in a
way I've never yet heard it used.
Law abiding.
Agreed.
Self confident.
Not sure what you mean by this. You're conflating individuals with
cultures again. How does a culture, rather than an individual, go about
being 'self-confident' for God's sake?
The sociological expression of the individual will. RH
And while those who know and love
me will mostly agree I'm self-confident (some might say downright bloody
arrogant), that self-confidence has to be based on a willingness to learn by
mistakes and an acute awareness that one can always be wrong, otherwise it
turns into mania.
Aware of its past.
At peace with itself and its place in the world. ?
Oh, give the culture a good dinner and a spliff or a couple of large
brandies, then. That'll probably do the trick. Usually works for me.
I personify the g nation for polemical purposes. RH
Steve
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
|
|
|
| User: "Steve Glynn" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
15 Sep 2003 08:19:48 PM |
|
|
Robert Henderson <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<u4KxSLAyvcZ$EwqO@anywhere.demon.co.uk>...
I personify the nation for polemical purposes. RH
Robert, my friend, having met you and having examined the image of
whichever mistess of King Charles II it is on obverse (sp?) of the 50p
coin who modelled for Britania, I can confidently say that no man in
his right mind would get confused between the two of you.
Steve
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robert Henderson" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
16 Sep 2003 12:35:57 AM |
|
|
In article <d618a014.0309151719.ac66538@posting.google.com>, Steve Glynn
<stephen.glynn@ntlworld.com> writes
Robert Henderson <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<u4KxSLAyvc
Z$EwqO@anywhere.demon.co.uk>...
I personify the nation for polemical purposes. RH
Robert, my friend, having met you and having examined the image of
whichever mistess of King Charles II it is on obverse (sp?) of the 50p
coin who modelled for Britania, I can confidently say that no man in
his right mind would get confused between the two of you.
Sigh. You misunderstand. I am merely saying I have personified the
nation not that I personify it. RH
Steve
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
|
|
|
| User: "Joe Hutcheon" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
16 Sep 2003 11:46:43 AM |
|
|
Robert Henderson <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<F+5bjLA9EqZ$EwuR@anywhere.demon.co.uk>...
In article <d618a014.0309151719.ac66538@posting.google.com>, Steve Glynn
<stephen.glynn@ntlworld.com> writes
Robert Henderson <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<u4KxSLAyvc
Z$EwqO@anywhere.demon.co.uk>...
I personify the nation for polemical purposes. RH
Robert, my friend, having met you and having examined the image of
whichever mistess of King Charles II it is on obverse (sp?) of the 50p
coin who modelled for Britania, I can confidently say that no man in
his right mind would get confused between the two of you.
Sigh. You misunderstand. I am merely saying I have personified the
nation not that I personify it. RH
So when did you cease to personify the nation?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robert Henderson" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
16 Sep 2003 04:55:30 PM |
|
|
In article <fc52e8e7.0309160846.4587e89@posting.google.com>, Joe
Hutcheon <j.hutcheon@jisc.ac.uk> writes
Robert Henderson <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<F+5bjLA9Eq
Z$EwuR@anywhere.demon.co.uk>...
In article <d618a014.0309151719.ac66538@posting.google.com>, Steve Glynn
<stephen.glynn@ntlworld.com> writes
Robert Henderson <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<u4KxSLAyvc
Z$EwqO@anywhere.demon.co.uk>...
I personify the nation for polemical purposes. RH
Robert, my friend, having met you and having examined the image of
whichever mistess of King Charles II it is on obverse (sp?) of the 50p
coin who modelled for Britania, I can confidently say that no man in
his right mind would get confused between the two of you.
Sigh. You misunderstand. I am merely saying I have personified the
nation not that I personify it. RH
So when did you cease to personify the nation?
Sigh. I have never made the claim. RH
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
|
|
|
| User: "Steve Glynn" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
17 Sep 2003 06:00:53 PM |
|
|
"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Jcy4bFBSb4Z$Ewtf@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
In article <fc52e8e7.0309160846.4587e89@posting.google.com>, Joe
Hutcheon <j.hutcheon@jisc.ac.uk> writes
Robert Henderson <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<F+5bjLA9Eq
Z$EwuR@anywhere.demon.co.uk>...
In article <d618a014.0309151719.ac66538@posting.google.com>, Steve
Glynn
<stephen.glynn@ntlworld.com> writes
Robert Henderson <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<u4KxSLAyvc
Z$EwqO@anywhere.demon.co.uk>...
I personify the nation for polemical purposes. RH
Robert, my friend, having met you and having examined the image of
whichever mistess of King Charles II it is on obverse (sp?) of the 50p
coin who modelled for Britania, I can confidently say that no man in
his right mind would get confused between the two of you.
Sigh. You misunderstand. I am merely saying I have personified the
nation not that I personify it. RH
So when did you cease to personify the nation?
Sigh. I have never made the claim. RH
I think I can follow what's going on here.
Would I be correct in thinking that by 'personify the nation' you mean that
you've used the rhetorical figure 'personification' rather than that you
have attempted to personify the nation in yourself? ('I speak to England'
as opposed to 'I represent England').
Steve
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robert Henderson" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
17 Sep 2003 11:31:16 PM |
|
|
In article <0H5ab.1378$%N.565929@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>, Steve
Glynn <steveglynn@ntlworld.com> writes
Sigh. I have never made the claim. RH
I think I can follow what's going on here.
Would I be correct in thinking that by 'personify the nation' you mean that
you've used the rhetorical figure 'personification' rather than that you
have attempted to personify the nation in yourself? ('I speak to England'
as opposed to 'I represent England').
Correct. RH
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Al" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
15 Sep 2003 10:50:16 AM |
|
|
Robert Henderson wrote:
In article <poi9b.187$YL1.198456@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>, Steve
Glynn <steveglynn@ntlworld.com> writes
Hmm. Not completely sure about this. I worked in California for a
couple
of years, and very enjoyable it was, too. I had a very distinct sense
of place there
You're the type of "citizen of the world" who has a sense of place
everywhere and nowhere. RH
Just so I know, does that you mean you concur with the late Christopher
Lasch that "citizens of the world" were bad things?
--
Al
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dirk Bruere at Neopax" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
15 Sep 2003 11:25:25 AM |
|
|
"Al" <al@lgeezer.net> wrote in message
news:bk4n3q$mq3$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
Robert Henderson wrote:
In article <poi9b.187$YL1.198456@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>, Steve
Glynn <steveglynn@ntlworld.com> writes
Hmm. Not completely sure about this. I worked in California for a
couple
of years, and very enjoyable it was, too. I had a very distinct sense
of place there
You're the type of "citizen of the world" who has a sense of place
everywhere and nowhere. RH
Just so I know, does that you mean you concur with the late Christopher
Lasch that "citizens of the world" were bad things?
In practice, yes.
Esp because there is no such thing.
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Robert Henderson" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
15 Sep 2003 11:39:46 AM |
|
|
In article <bk4n3q$mq3$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Al <al@lgeezer.net>
writes
Robert Henderson wrote:
In article <poi9b.187$YL1.198456@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>, Steve
Glynn <steveglynn@ntlworld.com> writes
Hmm. Not completely sure about this. I worked in California for a
couple
of years, and very enjoyable it was, too. I had a very distinct sense
of place there
You're the type of "citizen of the world" who has a sense of place
everywhere and nowhere. RH
Just so I know, does that you mean you concur with the late Christopher
Lasch that "citizens of the world" were bad things?
Unreservedly bad. rH
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
15 Sep 2003 02:23:12 PM |
|
|
Robert Henderson wrote:
In article <bk4n3q$mq3$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Al <al@lgeezer.net>
writes
Robert Henderson wrote:
In article <poi9b.187$YL1.198456@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>, Steve
Glynn <steveglynn@ntlworld.com> writes
Hmm. Not completely sure about this. I worked in California for a
couple
of years, and very enjoyable it was, too. I had a very distinct sense
of place there
You're the type of "citizen of the world" who has a sense of place
everywhere and nowhere. RH
Just so I know, does that you mean you concur with the late Christopher
Lasch that "citizens of the world" were bad things?
Unreservedly bad. rH
Lasch defined these citizens very broadly, others have considered upto 20%
of the (American) population could be so described. Far larger than their
numbers is their contribution to the tax burden: the top 6.6% shoulder
almost 60%; the top 20% somewhere around 80% [1]: Lasch's "Citizens of the
World" tend to be tax contributors, not users.
So your article starting this thread doesn't address the concerns of a large
minority of those to whom it is addressed, and it doesn't address the
concerns of the /majority/ of those who you would expect to fund it.
Are you at all troubled by that?
--
Al
[1]
http://www.law.duke.edu/curriculum/courseHomepages/Fall2002/255_01/handouts/distribution.pdf
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dirk Bruere at Neopax" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
14 Sep 2003 03:06:50 PM |
|
|
"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:BI26ecAAFMZ$Ewth@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
What the nation state owes you and what you owe the nation
state
Robert Henderson
The first duty a democratic government owes is to those it
represents. Before this duty all other considerations become
secondary. That is the easy part of the process of
definition. The difficult part is how should that duty be
realised?
It makes moral and prudential sense for any society to
both secure the loyalty of its citizens with guaranteed
privileges which are not extended to non-citizens and to
generally reduce the opportunities for social friction. In a
free society where the individual has to decide to give his
or her loyalty, the utility of such privileges is much
greater than it would be in a dictatorship. In a democracy
it makes not merely sense but is a moral imperative for a
government to secure and better the condition of its
constituent people.
The modern industrialised nation state such as Britain does
indeed confer great privileges on those who are part of it.
It provides a secure environment based on the rule of law,
a decent material standard of living, healthcare and
education free at the point of use and, in the form of the
welfare state, a safety net for those who fall on hard times.
It is, in short, a very efficient life support system which
most people in the world are desperate to become part of by
hook or by crook.
Meaningful citizenship equals duties plus privileges
But giving privileges without any obligations attached is an
empty act. If privileges are taken for granted then a major
part of their purpose is lost, the securing of a citizen's
loyalty. Unfortunately, that is precisely what the currently
dominant liberal internationalist ideology does, give
privileges without anything being asked in return. Worse, it
gives such privileges not only to citizens but huge numbers
of non-citizens.
Liberal internationalists say, in so many words, that a man
may live anywhere he wishes and owe no particular allegiance
to any place or society. In this fantasy world the entire
world, or in reality the First World, is a milch cow to
milked by whoever can get near to it.
In practice, all that is required by the liberal
internationalist of the citizen is observation of the law in
the country in which the person lives. They have developed
the idea of the world as a place of undifferentiated
settlement, a very dangerous idea both for them and those who
feel differently. No sense of place, no place.
Treating a country simply as a convenient place of residence
is a recipe for national disaster. Ultimately a nation state
only exists because its inhabitants both have a shared sense
of identity and a willingness to defend the interests of the
country, including in extremis fighting for the country.
The consequence of the internationalist mentality is a lack
of any moral system to cover general behaviour. People
normally act in a moral way only towards the group with which
they have a sense of shared identity. For most people in the
world, this means the family or tribe. Only those states
which have created a larger community of perceived interest
have developed a general morality which is normally observed.
In short, a strong society must have a shared sense of its
worth. In a healthy society this sense of worth simply exists
and children imbibe it unconsciously. In an unhealthy one it
needs to be consciously engendered.
I have already listed the benefits which British citizenship
confers. But these have been steadily eroded over the past
fifty years by mass immigration, the movement towards free
trade and the growth of international treaty obligations,
most notably Britain's membership of the European Union. The
effect of these changes has been to increase social discord
by (1) introducing foreign and unassimilated elements into
British society, (2) exporting jobs and (3) passing effective
political control on many major issues from Westminster to
bodies such as Nato and the WT0 or the EU Commission. The
nation state has failed the British in these matters. Thus,
we can see that the state owes more to its citizens than such
things as maintaining order, defending its borders and
providing welfare provision. It must provide the social
structure within which they can be achieved.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
maintenance of a clear distinction between countryman and
foreigner. That requires a strict control of immigration.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
right to sell their labour for the price it will fetch within
the confines of the native population.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
protection of industry and commerce both to provide
employment and for the strategic reasons of self sufficiency
in vital goods and services.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
spending of their taxes in ways which only benefit citizens.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to those who are not
citizens only the equal protection of the law.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
maintenance of democratic institutions.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
promotion of its culture and history above all other cultures
and histories.
The duties of the citizen
The citizen should instinctively give preference to his
fellow citizens.
The citizen should not see himself as part of a group which
owes its first loyalty to any group or power outside the
state.
The citizen should be willing to sacrifice his own interests
where these clash with the interests of the nation, for
example, be willing to fight and die if the homeland is
attacked or, more prosaically, to forego economic advantage
where this removes jobs from the country.
Generally, the citizen should always act to protect the
interest of the nation. The interest of the nation can be
normally determined by simply reducing any given national
choice to the analogy of a personal and asking what the
individual would do in such circumstances.
The citizen should always think of the nation in the context
of its history and the realistic threats to it.
What the enduring democratic nation state cannot be
It cannot be subsumed in something politically greater than
itself.
It cannot be a mishmash of competing cultures.
It cannot be constantly besieged by masses of immigrants.
What an enduring democratic nation state must be
Culturally homogeneous.
Law abiding.
Self confident.
Aware of its past.
At peace with itself and its place in the world.
Well said (mostly!).
May I plagiarise some of that for the Consensus site?
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robert Henderson" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
15 Sep 2003 12:47:40 AM |
|
|
In article <bk2hmo$of3dn$1@ID-120108.news.uni-berlin.de>, Dirk Bruere at
Neopax <dirk@neopax.com> writes
Well said (mostly!).
May I plagiarise some of that for the Consensus site?
--
You can use it with proper attribution but better to
wait until I have knocked it up into a proper article.
Dirk
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pete Gannon" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
15 Sep 2003 12:27:22 PM |
|
|
RIGHT WING NUTJOBS
"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:BI26ecAAFMZ$Ewth@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
What the nation state owes you and what you owe the nation
state
Robert Henderson
The first duty a democratic government owes is to those it
represents. Before this duty all other considerations become
secondary. That is the easy part of the process of
definition. The difficult part is how should that duty be
realised?
It makes moral and prudential sense for any society to
both secure the loyalty of its citizens with guaranteed
privileges which are not extended to non-citizens and to
generally reduce the opportunities for social friction. In a
free society where the individual has to decide to give his
or her loyalty, the utility of such privileges is much
greater than it would be in a dictatorship. In a democracy
it makes not merely sense but is a moral imperative for a
government to secure and better the condition of its
constituent people.
The modern industrialised nation state such as Britain does
indeed confer great privileges on those who are part of it.
It provides a secure environment based on the rule of law,
a decent material standard of living, healthcare and
education free at the point of use and, in the form of the
welfare state, a safety net for those who fall on hard times.
It is, in short, a very efficient life support system which
most people in the world are desperate to become part of by
hook or by crook.
Meaningful citizenship equals duties plus privileges
But giving privileges without any obligations attached is an
empty act. If privileges are taken for granted then a major
part of their purpose is lost, the securing of a citizen's
loyalty. Unfortunately, that is precisely what the currently
dominant liberal internationalist ideology does, give
privileges without anything being asked in return. Worse, it
gives such privileges not only to citizens but huge numbers
of non-citizens.
Liberal internationalists say, in so many words, that a man
may live anywhere he wishes and owe no particular allegiance
to any place or society. In this fantasy world the entire
world, or in reality the First World, is a milch cow to
milked by whoever can get near to it.
In practice, all that is required by the liberal
internationalist of the citizen is observation of the law in
the country in which the person lives. They have developed
the idea of the world as a place of undifferentiated
settlement, a very dangerous idea both for them and those who
feel differently. No sense of place, no place.
Treating a country simply as a convenient place of residence
is a recipe for national disaster. Ultimately a nation state
only exists because its inhabitants both have a shared sense
of identity and a willingness to defend the interests of the
country, including in extremis fighting for the country.
The consequence of the internationalist mentality is a lack
of any moral system to cover general behaviour. People
normally act in a moral way only towards the group with which
they have a sense of shared identity. For most people in the
world, this means the family or tribe. Only those states
which have created a larger community of perceived interest
have developed a general morality which is normally observed.
In short, a strong society must have a shared sense of its
worth. In a healthy society this sense of worth simply exists
and children imbibe it unconsciously. In an unhealthy one it
needs to be consciously engendered.
I have already listed the benefits which British citizenship
confers. But these have been steadily eroded over the past
fifty years by mass immigration, the movement towards free
trade and the growth of international treaty obligations,
most notably Britain's membership of the European Union. The
effect of these changes has been to increase social discord
by (1) introducing foreign and unassimilated elements into
British society, (2) exporting jobs and (3) passing effective
political control on many major issues from Westminster to
bodies such as Nato and the WT0 or the EU Commission. The
nation state has failed the British in these matters. Thus,
we can see that the state owes more to its citizens than such
things as maintaining order, defending its borders and
providing welfare provision. It must provide the social
structure within which they can be achieved.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
maintenance of a clear distinction between countryman and
foreigner. That requires a strict control of immigration.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
right to sell their labour for the price it will fetch within
the confines of the native population.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
protection of industry and commerce both to provide
employment and for the strategic reasons of self sufficiency
in vital goods and services.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
spending of their taxes in ways which only benefit citizens.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to those who are not
citizens only the equal protection of the law.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
maintenance of democratic institutions.
As a basic duty the nation state owes to its citizens the
promotion of its culture and history above all other cultures
and histories.
The duties of the citizen
The citizen should instinctively give preference to his
fellow citizens.
The citizen should not see himself as part of a group which
owes its first loyalty to any group or power outside the
state.
The citizen should be willing to sacrifice his own interests
where these clash with the interests of the nation, for
example, be willing to fight and die if the homeland is
attacked or, more prosaically, to forego economic advantage
where this removes jobs from the country.
Generally, the citizen should always act to protect the
interest of the nation. The interest of the nation can be
normally determined by simply reducing any given national
choice to the analogy of a personal and asking what the
individual would do in such circumstances.
The citizen should always think of the nation in the context
of its history and the realistic threats to it.
What the enduring democratic nation state cannot be
It cannot be subsumed in something politically greater than
itself.
It cannot be a mishmash of competing cultures.
It cannot be constantly besieged by masses of immigrants.
What an enduring democratic nation state must be
Culturally homogeneous.
Law abiding.
Self confident.
Aware of its past.
At peace with itself and its place in the world.
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Archibald" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
15 Sep 2003 03:13:20 AM |
|
|
Robert Henderson wrote:
What the nation state owes you and what you owe the nation
state
Please stop posting this shite to uk.legal where it is "off-topic".
Thanks
Archie
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robert Henderson" |
|
| Title: Re: Whta the nation state owes you and what you woe the nation state |
15 Sep 2003 04:57:16 AM |
|
|
In article <3F65740A.C9A68D50@privacy.net>, Archibald <me@privacy.net>
writes
Robert Henderson wrote:
What the nation state owes you and what you owe the nation
state
Please stop posting this shite to uk.legal where it is "off-topic".
On the contrary, it goes to the heart of constitutional law. RH
Thanks
Archie
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
|
|
|
|
|

|
Related Articles |
|
|