http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4238442.stm
Assaulting police, throwing petrol bombs..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4234626.stm
"Worst rioting in years"
These scumbags are far more of a threat than any Muslims, it would appear.
.
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| User: "The Other Guy" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
13 Sep 2005 03:05:31 AM |
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I am sorry, but these people rioting in Belfast are not Christian. Infact, I am not sure if
they are of any religion at all. They call themselves Protestants, but they are not of any
Faith that I was brought up believing in !!!
As a person that was brought up Anglican, I would be compelled to consider these people
anything 'acceptable' to that faith. They are no more worthy of calling themselves
'descendants' of England then the are of calling themselves 'Sons Of God'.
I would be more incline to call them 'Lucifer's Disciples'. Just because (so it seems) their
only purpose in life right now is to start a WAR that has already been laid to REST !!!
:-(]
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| User: "tw" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
13 Sep 2005 03:23:41 AM |
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"The Other Guy" <theotherguy@worldsbeyond.com> wrote in message
news:xKvVe.1684$6Z1.382765@news20.bellglobal.com...
I am sorry, but these people rioting in Belfast are not Christian. Infact,
I am not sure if
they are of any religion at all. They call themselves Protestants, but
they are not of any
Faith that I was brought up believing in !!!
Just because YOU Don't think they're Christians doesn't mean *****, I'm
afraid. After all, even though Muslim leaders have called suicide bombers
un-Islamic, people still refer to them as Muslims.
As a person that was brought up Anglican, I would be compelled to consider
these people
anything 'acceptable' to that faith. They are no more worthy of calling
themselves
'descendants' of England
Scotland mainly, actually.
then the are of calling themselves 'Sons Of God'.
I would be more incline to call them 'Lucifer's Disciples'. Just because
(so it seems) their
only purpose in life right now is to start a WAR that has already been
laid to REST !!!
Already been laid to rest?! AFAIK the IRA are still armed and in existence.
:-(]
.
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| User: "Werewolfy" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
13 Sep 2005 03:58:15 AM |
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Tw wrote;-
"Just because YOU Don't think they're Christians ...."
I support TW 100%.
When you..Mr 'Other Guy', have the direct experience,actual knowledge,
and are able to speak with any authority, then perhaps you have cause
to defend.
You base your 'defence' on faith alone, and the version you follow. You
base it on the dogma that 'Christianity is right'.
I have workd in N Ireland and on the border. I can assure you, that the
IRA and the 'Loyalists' are overbrimming with 'men of the
cloth'...Roman Catholics versus Protestants. Sectarian murders on both
sides have been common and supported by the religious leaders.
Anyone who has faith in Sinn Fein, and believes that there is a 'truce'
and a desire for peace, is quite simply a fool.
The 'truce' exists because of lack of funds, and as a method of
obtaining amnesty for the murderers safely locked away.
You may thank the wide statement of 'War on Terror' by the US for the
drying up of funds. Bush and his administration have had to include
(with reluctance) that the IRA is an illegal Terrorist Organisation,
and as such, may not be funded by Americans. Prior to that, collections
for 'The Cause' were common place. No action was taken before your 'War
on Terror, simply because of the fear of losing 'the Irish vote'.
I am not condemning either 'cause'. I am simply pointing out that this
IS sectarian and that it is NOT 'laid to rest'.
Do not have such 'blind faith'. I respect your right to worship as you
will, but cannot allow mis-information such as yours to pass without
comment.
Werewolfy
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| User: "The Other Guy" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
13 Sep 2005 12:42:02 PM |
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Thank you for the 'Heads Up' Werewolfy (seriously).
I currently live in North America where we are all but completely isolated from the rest of
the world when it comes to European events. I had no idea that a major part of the un-rest
still exists in Ireland (on both sides).
Also; if I stated it wrong, I apologize, as I was only referring to the portion of the
Protestant group that was so "Hell Bent" on having their parade to provoke the Catholics.
As for belief in Christianity - I no longer believe in Christ as the son of The Almighty. But,
I do not knock other people if that is their belief. I just 'spite' people that us it for
their excuse to create wars.
:-(]
"Werewolfy" <thegrimreaper10@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1126601895.138878.78250@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tw wrote;-
"Just because YOU Don't think they're Christians ...."
I support TW 100%.
When you..Mr 'Other Guy', have the direct experience,actual knowledge,
and are able to speak with any authority, then perhaps you have cause
to defend.
You base your 'defence' on faith alone, and the version you follow. You
base it on the dogma that 'Christianity is right'.
I have workd in N Ireland and on the border. I can assure you, that the
IRA and the 'Loyalists' are overbrimming with 'men of the
cloth'...Roman Catholics versus Protestants. Sectarian murders on both
sides have been common and supported by the religious leaders.
Anyone who has faith in Sinn Fein, and believes that there is a 'truce'
and a desire for peace, is quite simply a fool.
The 'truce' exists because of lack of funds, and as a method of
obtaining amnesty for the murderers safely locked away.
You may thank the wide statement of 'War on Terror' by the US for the
drying up of funds. Bush and his administration have had to include
(with reluctance) that the IRA is an illegal Terrorist Organisation,
and as such, may not be funded by Americans. Prior to that, collections
for 'The Cause' were common place. No action was taken before your 'War
on Terror, simply because of the fear of losing 'the Irish vote'.
I am not condemning either 'cause'. I am simply pointing out that this
IS sectarian and that it is NOT 'laid to rest'.
Do not have such 'blind faith'. I respect your right to worship as you
will, but cannot allow mis-information such as yours to pass without
comment.
Werewolfy
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| User: "Werewolfy" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
13 Sep 2005 05:26:32 PM |
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The other guy said;-
"Thank you for the 'Heads Up' Werewolfy (seriously). ......"
And thank you for reading my post, and seeing that there is a lot more
than perhaps the news shows.
I understand that with the way things are often presented, an imperfect
picture is formed. That I blame on the media..not the viewer.
Thank you for your response. Honesty and a willingness to listen are
rare qualities...especially in a ng. My thoughts about you have risen
dramatically. You read, digest and consider things on their
presentation,,,an excellent quality, often lacking in here!
Ricky
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| User: "Tugboat Captain" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 11:31:15 AM |
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Werewolfy wrote / skrev:
Tw wrote;-
"Just because YOU Don't think they're Christians ...."
I support TW 100%.
When you..Mr 'Other Guy', have the direct experience,actual knowledge,
and are able to speak with any authority, then perhaps you have cause
to defend.
You base your 'defence' on faith alone, and the version you follow. You
base it on the dogma that 'Christianity is right'.
I have workd in N Ireland and on the border. I can assure you, that the
IRA and the 'Loyalists' are overbrimming with 'men of the
cloth'...Roman Catholics versus Protestants. Sectarian murders on both
sides have been common and supported by the religious leaders.
Anyone who has faith in Sinn Fein, and believes that there is a 'truce'
and a desire for peace, is quite simply a fool.
The 'truce' exists because of lack of funds, and as a method of
obtaining amnesty for the murderers safely locked away.
You may thank the wide statement of 'War on Terror' by the US for the
drying up of funds. Bush and his administration have had to include
(with reluctance) that the IRA is an illegal Terrorist Organisation,
and as such, may not be funded by Americans. Prior to that, collections
for 'The Cause' were common place. No action was taken before your 'War
on Terror, simply because of the fear of losing 'the Irish vote'.
I am not condemning either 'cause'. I am simply pointing out that this
IS sectarian and that it is NOT 'laid to rest'.
Do not have such 'blind faith'. I respect your right to worship as you
will, but cannot allow mis-information such as yours to pass without
comment.
Werewolfy
You seem to know absolutely nothing about Christianity. A man who calls
himself "Christian" is not automatically a Christian. A good tree brings
good fruit, a bad tree brings bad fruit. The existence of a "Christian
terrorist" is impossible. Stick to Grimm, Old Rugged Coat!
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| User: "Werewolfy" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 05:10:53 PM |
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The captain assumed;-
"You seem to know absolutely nothing about Christianity..."
How wrong you are. Believe as you wish, I will not embelish that
response.
"A good tree brings
good fruit, a bad tree brings bad fruit"
And who exactly is able to say which tree is the good tree, and which
the bad?
Oh...Do try not to talk in parables, unless you wish to claim divinity.
I don't like you....did you guess?
Werewolfy
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| User: "Tugboat Captain" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 11:42:47 PM |
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Werewolfy wrote / skrev:
The captain assumed;-
"You seem to know absolutely nothing about Christianity..."
How wrong you are. Believe as you wish, I will not embelish that
response.
"A good tree brings
good fruit, a bad tree brings bad fruit"
And who exactly is able to say which tree is the good tree, and which
the bad?
Hard to say these days.
Oh...Do try not to talk in parables, unless you wish to claim divinity.
That was from the Bible.
I don't like you....did you guess?
It's not very Christian of me, but I have to admit that I feel the same
for you.
Werewolfy
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
13 Sep 2005 07:35:11 PM |
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Werewolfy wrote:
Tw wrote;-
"Just because YOU Don't think they're Christians ...."
I support TW 100%.
When you..Mr 'Other Guy', have the direct experience,actual knowledge,
and are able to speak with any authority, then perhaps you have cause
to defend.
What did he defend?
.
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| User: "WH" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 05:02:47 AM |
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Werewolfy wrote:
Tw wrote;-
"Just because YOU Don't think they're Christians ...."
I support TW 100%.
When you..Mr 'Other Guy', have the direct experience,actual knowledge,
and are able to speak with any authority, then perhaps you have cause
to defend.
You base your 'defence' on faith alone, and the version you follow. You
base it on the dogma that 'Christianity is right'.
I have workd in N Ireland and on the border. I can assure you, that the
IRA and the 'Loyalists' are overbrimming with 'men of the
cloth'...Roman Catholics versus Protestants. Sectarian murders on both
sides have been common and supported by the religious leaders.
Look up the statistics wolfy. You'll find that the vast majority of the
civilians killed were killed by loyalist paramilitaries.
Anyone who has faith in Sinn Fein, and believes that there is a 'truce'
and a desire for peace, is quite simply a fool.
The 'truce' exists because of lack of funds, and as a method of
obtaining amnesty for the murderers safely locked away.
You may thank the wide statement of 'War on Terror' by the US for the
drying up of funds. Bush and his administration have had to include
(with reluctance) that the IRA is an illegal Terrorist Organisation,
and as such, may not be funded by Americans. Prior to that, collections
for 'The Cause' were common place. No action was taken before your 'War
on Terror, simply because of the fear of losing 'the Irish vote'.
The good friday agreement was signed on the 10th of April 1998, that's
three years before the yankies labelled half the world terrorists. So
your point doesn't hold. It's not to do with funds, nor a quick way to
get members released from prison. It's mainly because Tony Blair was
prepared to sit down and discuss the situation. All earlier PM's
refused. Kinda logical methinks really because you can't have peace
talks if you refuse to talk to your enemies.
I am not condemning either 'cause'. I am simply pointing out that this
IS sectarian and that it is NOT 'laid to rest'.
Yeah, that's the old British propaganda machine. It's not a sectarian
problem as such...the nationalist side who want the Brits out of
Ireland just *happen* to be (mostly) catholic, the vast majority of the
population of Ireland are catholic so that's not so strange. The ones
who want to remain British happen to be protestant, which isn't strange
either as they are decended from British/Scottish settlers put there
during the plantation of Ireland by England in the 15th century or so.
Now, nationalist people in Ulster tended not to join the British
forces...army, police. These organisations were looked upon as
upholding British rule in Ireland. So they were regarded by the
republican paramilitaries as legitimate targets...because of the
uniform they bore and what that stood for and NOT because they were
protestants. On the other hand there were the loyalist paramilitaries
who randomly killed people in nationalist areas hoping they'de gotten
rid of another Taig. As I said earlier the vast majority of civilians
killed in this conflict were killed by the loyalist paramilitaries. The
IRA just happen to be better known and very often have "the violence"
attributed to them.
Oh and by the way, I have not said that some in the nationalist
community in the north of Ireland haven't commited some attrocities but
let's not use the letters IRA and then a generalization about the
violence which gives the impression that they were reasponsible for
everything.
WH
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| User: "tw" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 07:23:02 AM |
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"WH" <bollogs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126692167.885931.309190@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
Hey, Chris.. you ever seen this?
http://www.portadownnews.com/08Aug05.htm
An amusingly even handed swipe at the lot of 'em!
.
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| User: "Werewolfy" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 06:32:15 AM |
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WH wrote;-
"let's not use the letters IRA ...and more."
Yes Chris, valid points from the Irish side, and points that I should
address in order that you, and others, know my stance.
That sectarian murders occur is a reality. That the clergy are involved
with aid is a reality. That large amounts of cash were being collected
in America up until the 'War on Terror' is a reality.
Now, I have my own feelings about the Irish question. I know that you
have much closer links and knowledge, but I want to make one point
clear.
I believe that the Irish have more than a fair cause to fight for their
belief, and if any single matter exemplifies that right, it is the
disgusting and barbaric use of ex WW1 soldiers from 1918 and known as
the 'Black and Tans.'
The entire period when they were 'in control' reflects badly on my
Country and I will in no way defend that action. The Irish people were
at the mercy of a ruthless English Government who used methods which
today would be considered barbaric, unlawful and..well, simply vile.
I condemn all actions that lead to this unrest. I accept that much
provocation can be laid fairly at the door of the Protestant element.
If I was back in NI now, I would happily....deal...with a NI rebel in
exactly the same way as I would an Irish rebel.
If the word 'rebel' is harsh, then substitute any you care to..and I
will agree.
At the moment, I am of the opinion that the present unrest may be laid
at the feet of the Protestant Community.
I have no dispute with Irish claims as to the cause. That is for
Politicians. I am just an enforcer of the peace...well, was...and as
such, a fair one. Privately, I have understanding for the campaign by S
Ireland. You have suffered attrocities that are unspeakable.
I stand in the middle. Just hoping for a peaceful settlement.
My post was aimed at the involvement of 'Christians', not at the rights
and wrongs of the dispute.
In fact, despite being English and having worked there, I feel you have
a just cause. Acts of violence on either side are the point. I blame
neither side, just the acts themselves.
Actually Chris, you would be suprised at the amount of sympathy I have
for the unjust oppressions of the past committed against the Irish
people. I hope you understand me when I say that I have discarded my
'official hat' and I speak as I have seen and found things to be.
I totally abhor the violence on either side. I understand the problem,
and I am firmly of the belief that your case for recognition of past
wrongs is well justified.
Hey...bet that suprises you...;) It's sincere though. I have lived by
Justice and will fight against injustice. It matters not if that is
against my own Nation. Fairness is the only issue.
Ricky
.
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| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 06:45:07 AM |
|
|
"Werewolfy" <thegrimreaper10@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1126697535.200070.226460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
WH wrote;-
"let's not use the letters IRA ...and more."
Yes Chris, valid points from the Irish side, and points that I should
address in order that you, and others, know my stance.
That sectarian murders occur is a reality. That the clergy are involved
with aid is a reality. That large amounts of cash were being collected
in America up until the 'War on Terror' is a reality.
Now, I have my own feelings about the Irish question. I know that you
have much closer links and knowledge, but I want to make one point
clear.
I believe that the Irish have more than a fair cause to fight for their
belief, and if any single matter exemplifies that right, it is the
disgusting and barbaric use of ex WW1 soldiers from 1918 and known as
the 'Black and Tans.'
The entire period when they were 'in control' reflects badly on my
Country and I will in no way defend that action. The Irish people were
at the mercy of a ruthless English Government who used methods which
today would be considered barbaric, unlawful and..well, simply vile.
I condemn all actions that lead to this unrest. I accept that much
provocation can be laid fairly at the door of the Protestant element.
If I was back in NI now, I would happily....deal...with a NI rebel in
exactly the same way as I would an Irish rebel.
If the word 'rebel' is harsh, then substitute any you care to..and I
will agree.
At the moment, I am of the opinion that the present unrest may be laid
at the feet of the Protestant Community.
I have no dispute with Irish claims as to the cause. That is for
Politicians. I am just an enforcer of the peace...well, was...and as
such, a fair one. Privately, I have understanding for the campaign by S
Ireland. You have suffered attrocities that are unspeakable.
I stand in the middle. Just hoping for a peaceful settlement.
My post was aimed at the involvement of 'Christians', not at the rights
and wrongs of the dispute.
In fact, despite being English and having worked there, I feel you have
a just cause. Acts of violence on either side are the point. I blame
neither side, just the acts themselves.
Actually Chris, you would be suprised at the amount of sympathy I have
for the unjust oppressions of the past committed against the Irish
people. I hope you understand me when I say that I have discarded my
'official hat' and I speak as I have seen and found things to be.
I totally abhor the violence on either side. I understand the problem,
and I am firmly of the belief that your case for recognition of past
wrongs is well justified.
Hey...bet that suprises you...;) It's sincere though. I have lived by
Justice and will fight against injustice. It matters not if that is
against my own Nation. Fairness is the only issue.
Ricky
Excellent post Ricky, saved me the bother of writing a similar one! I wasn't
really tryingto point out the religious nature of the disagreement, as after
all, BOTH sides are allegedly Christians, right?
I'm still interested to know whether Jane (a Canadian Irish Nationalist) can
draw the obvious parallels between the Loyalists and the Israelis, mind...
I'm not expecting an answer any time soon, of course.
.
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| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 07:16:05 AM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dg92g4$rms$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se...
"Werewolfy" <thegrimreaper10@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1126697535.200070.226460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
WH wrote;-
"let's not use the letters IRA ...and more."
Yes Chris, valid points from the Irish side, and points that I should
address in order that you, and others, know my stance.
That sectarian murders occur is a reality. That the clergy are involved
with aid is a reality. That large amounts of cash were being collected
in America up until the 'War on Terror' is a reality.
Now, I have my own feelings about the Irish question. I know that you
have much closer links and knowledge, but I want to make one point
clear.
I believe that the Irish have more than a fair cause to fight for their
belief, and if any single matter exemplifies that right, it is the
disgusting and barbaric use of ex WW1 soldiers from 1918 and known as
the 'Black and Tans.'
The entire period when they were 'in control' reflects badly on my
Country and I will in no way defend that action. The Irish people were
at the mercy of a ruthless English Government who used methods which
today would be considered barbaric, unlawful and..well, simply vile.
I condemn all actions that lead to this unrest. I accept that much
provocation can be laid fairly at the door of the Protestant element.
If I was back in NI now, I would happily....deal...with a NI rebel in
exactly the same way as I would an Irish rebel.
If the word 'rebel' is harsh, then substitute any you care to..and I
will agree.
At the moment, I am of the opinion that the present unrest may be laid
at the feet of the Protestant Community.
I have no dispute with Irish claims as to the cause. That is for
Politicians. I am just an enforcer of the peace...well, was...and as
such, a fair one. Privately, I have understanding for the campaign by S
Ireland. You have suffered attrocities that are unspeakable.
I stand in the middle. Just hoping for a peaceful settlement.
My post was aimed at the involvement of 'Christians', not at the rights
and wrongs of the dispute.
In fact, despite being English and having worked there, I feel you have
a just cause. Acts of violence on either side are the point. I blame
neither side, just the acts themselves.
Actually Chris, you would be suprised at the amount of sympathy I have
for the unjust oppressions of the past committed against the Irish
people. I hope you understand me when I say that I have discarded my
'official hat' and I speak as I have seen and found things to be.
I totally abhor the violence on either side. I understand the problem,
and I am firmly of the belief that your case for recognition of past
wrongs is well justified.
Hey...bet that suprises you...;) It's sincere though. I have lived by
Justice and will fight against injustice. It matters not if that is
against my own Nation. Fairness is the only issue.
Ricky
Excellent post Ricky, saved me the bother of writing a similar one! I
wasn't
really tryingto point out the religious nature of the disagreement, as
after
all, BOTH sides are allegedly Christians, right?
I'm still interested to know whether Jane (a Canadian Irish Nationalist)
can
draw the obvious parallels between the Loyalists and the Israelis, mind...
I'm not expecting an answer any time soon, of course.
Actually, where I see more of a parallel is with Quebec circa 1970. Our
government instituted a short period of martial law (the one kudo I give
Trudeau; funny, most people condemn him for it) and thereafter have been
bribing Quebec to stay ever since...
Jane
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 07:39:42 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XvUVe.2636$1G4.393881@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dg92g4$rms$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se...
"Werewolfy" <thegrimreaper10@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1126697535.200070.226460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
WH wrote;-
"let's not use the letters IRA ...and more."
Yes Chris, valid points from the Irish side, and points that I should
address in order that you, and others, know my stance.
That sectarian murders occur is a reality. That the clergy are involved
with aid is a reality. That large amounts of cash were being collected
in America up until the 'War on Terror' is a reality.
Now, I have my own feelings about the Irish question. I know that you
have much closer links and knowledge, but I want to make one point
clear.
I believe that the Irish have more than a fair cause to fight for their
belief, and if any single matter exemplifies that right, it is the
disgusting and barbaric use of ex WW1 soldiers from 1918 and known as
the 'Black and Tans.'
The entire period when they were 'in control' reflects badly on my
Country and I will in no way defend that action. The Irish people were
at the mercy of a ruthless English Government who used methods which
today would be considered barbaric, unlawful and..well, simply vile.
I condemn all actions that lead to this unrest. I accept that much
provocation can be laid fairly at the door of the Protestant element.
If I was back in NI now, I would happily....deal...with a NI rebel in
exactly the same way as I would an Irish rebel.
If the word 'rebel' is harsh, then substitute any you care to..and I
will agree.
At the moment, I am of the opinion that the present unrest may be laid
at the feet of the Protestant Community.
I have no dispute with Irish claims as to the cause. That is for
Politicians. I am just an enforcer of the peace...well, was...and as
such, a fair one. Privately, I have understanding for the campaign by S
Ireland. You have suffered attrocities that are unspeakable.
I stand in the middle. Just hoping for a peaceful settlement.
My post was aimed at the involvement of 'Christians', not at the rights
and wrongs of the dispute.
In fact, despite being English and having worked there, I feel you have
a just cause. Acts of violence on either side are the point. I blame
neither side, just the acts themselves.
Actually Chris, you would be suprised at the amount of sympathy I have
for the unjust oppressions of the past committed against the Irish
people. I hope you understand me when I say that I have discarded my
'official hat' and I speak as I have seen and found things to be.
I totally abhor the violence on either side. I understand the problem,
and I am firmly of the belief that your case for recognition of past
wrongs is well justified.
Hey...bet that suprises you...;) It's sincere though. I have lived by
Justice and will fight against injustice. It matters not if that is
against my own Nation. Fairness is the only issue.
Ricky
Excellent post Ricky, saved me the bother of writing a similar one! I
wasn't
really tryingto point out the religious nature of the disagreement, as
after
all, BOTH sides are allegedly Christians, right?
I'm still interested to know whether Jane (a Canadian Irish Nationalist)
can
draw the obvious parallels between the Loyalists and the Israelis,
mind...
I'm not expecting an answer any time soon, of course.
Actually, where I see more of a parallel is with Quebec circa 1970. Our
government instituted a short period of martial law (the one kudo I give
Trudeau; funny, most people condemn him for it) and thereafter have been
bribing Quebec to stay ever since...
Jane
Where's the parallel then? Who has been "bribing" the Republic "to stay"?
Stay where?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 08:02:26 AM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dg95me$thq$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XvUVe.2636$1G4.393881@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dg92g4$rms$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se...
"Werewolfy" <thegrimreaper10@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1126697535.200070.226460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
WH wrote;-
"let's not use the letters IRA ...and more."
Yes Chris, valid points from the Irish side, and points that I should
address in order that you, and others, know my stance.
That sectarian murders occur is a reality. That the clergy are
involved
with aid is a reality. That large amounts of cash were being collected
in America up until the 'War on Terror' is a reality.
Now, I have my own feelings about the Irish question. I know that you
have much closer links and knowledge, but I want to make one point
clear.
I believe that the Irish have more than a fair cause to fight for
their
belief, and if any single matter exemplifies that right, it is the
disgusting and barbaric use of ex WW1 soldiers from 1918 and known as
the 'Black and Tans.'
The entire period when they were 'in control' reflects badly on my
Country and I will in no way defend that action. The Irish people were
at the mercy of a ruthless English Government who used methods which
today would be considered barbaric, unlawful and..well, simply vile.
I condemn all actions that lead to this unrest. I accept that much
provocation can be laid fairly at the door of the Protestant element.
If I was back in NI now, I would happily....deal...with a NI rebel in
exactly the same way as I would an Irish rebel.
If the word 'rebel' is harsh, then substitute any you care to..and I
will agree.
At the moment, I am of the opinion that the present unrest may be laid
at the feet of the Protestant Community.
I have no dispute with Irish claims as to the cause. That is for
Politicians. I am just an enforcer of the peace...well, was...and as
such, a fair one. Privately, I have understanding for the campaign by
S
Ireland. You have suffered attrocities that are unspeakable.
I stand in the middle. Just hoping for a peaceful settlement.
My post was aimed at the involvement of 'Christians', not at the
rights
and wrongs of the dispute.
In fact, despite being English and having worked there, I feel you
have
a just cause. Acts of violence on either side are the point. I blame
neither side, just the acts themselves.
Actually Chris, you would be suprised at the amount of sympathy I have
for the unjust oppressions of the past committed against the Irish
people. I hope you understand me when I say that I have discarded my
'official hat' and I speak as I have seen and found things to be.
I totally abhor the violence on either side. I understand the problem,
and I am firmly of the belief that your case for recognition of past
wrongs is well justified.
Hey...bet that suprises you...;) It's sincere though. I have lived by
Justice and will fight against injustice. It matters not if that is
against my own Nation. Fairness is the only issue.
Ricky
Excellent post Ricky, saved me the bother of writing a similar one! I
wasn't
really tryingto point out the religious nature of the disagreement, as
after
all, BOTH sides are allegedly Christians, right?
I'm still interested to know whether Jane (a Canadian Irish
Nationalist)
can
draw the obvious parallels between the Loyalists and the Israelis,
mind...
I'm not expecting an answer any time soon, of course.
Actually, where I see more of a parallel is with Quebec circa 1970. Our
government instituted a short period of martial law (the one kudo I give
Trudeau; funny, most people condemn him for it) and thereafter have been
bribing Quebec to stay ever since...
Jane
Where's the parallel then? Who has been "bribing" the Republic "to stay"?
Stay where?
The first part was the parallel "circa 1970". The rest was me rattling on
about Canadian politics and is not really relevant! Sorry!
Jane
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 08:29:52 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:obVVe.2694$1G4.396777@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dg95me$thq$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XvUVe.2636$1G4.393881@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip>
Actually, where I see more of a parallel is with Quebec circa 1970.
Our
government instituted a short period of martial law (the one kudo I
give
Trudeau; funny, most people condemn him for it) and thereafter have
been
bribing Quebec to stay ever since...
Jane
Where's the parallel then? Who has been "bribing" the Republic "to
stay"?
Stay where?
The first part was the parallel "circa 1970". The rest was me rattling on
about Canadian politics and is not really relevant! Sorry!
Fair enough.. I don't want to labour this piont, but is there still any
chance you can tell me what the parallel is? I'm woefully ignorant about
Canadian politics (othe rthan thatyou are all subjects of Her Majesty, and
quite right too) , I'm afraid. I'm aware that ther is a separatist Quebecois
movement but that's about it.
Jane
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 09:54:45 AM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dg98kg$v4r$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:obVVe.2694$1G4.396777@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dg95me$thq$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XvUVe.2636$1G4.393881@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip>
Actually, where I see more of a parallel is with Quebec circa 1970.
Our
government instituted a short period of martial law (the one kudo I
give
Trudeau; funny, most people condemn him for it) and thereafter have
been
bribing Quebec to stay ever since...
Jane
Where's the parallel then? Who has been "bribing" the Republic "to
stay"?
Stay where?
The first part was the parallel "circa 1970". The rest was me rattling
on
about Canadian politics and is not really relevant! Sorry!
Fair enough.. I don't want to labour this piont, but is there still any
chance you can tell me what the parallel is? I'm woefully ignorant about
Canadian politics (othe rthan thatyou are all subjects of Her Majesty, and
quite right too) , I'm afraid. I'm aware that ther is a separatist
Quebecois
movement but that's about it.
Ok. The French were the first to settle Canada, of course and, in fact,
spread as far south as Louisiana and through a great deal of the west. The
French in the 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries were under the thumb of
the RC church, with a mandate to have as many children as possible. In
fact, in the 16th century, a man would be taxed if his children were not
married and producing more colonists by a young age (I think it was 16 for
girls!) The English beat the French in 1759 on the Plains of Abraham and
New France became one of the Canadian colonies. The French toiled away
having huge families on their farms, while the English became the business
leaders in the province. (A classic complaint was being unable to get
service in French in Montreal stores) In the sixties, something called the
"Quiet Revolution" woke the French up and the nationalist movement began.
Books such as "White Niggers of America" by Pierre Vallieres came out.
Quebecers are now the least religious and have the lowest birthrate in
Canada. In the sixties, too, they started bombing federal property in
Quebec. Eventually, a group called the FLQ was born (Front de Libération du
Québec). In 1970, they kidnapped a British Trade Minister and a Quebec
Justice Minister. Martial Law was declared in Quebec and Ottawa. The trade
minster was released, his kidnappers exiled to Cuba (they have since
returned to Canada, although the exile was to have been for life) The
justice minister was murdered and his killers sent to jail, although they
have all since been released (Figures. I would have executed them all for
treason). It is indeed what I call terrorism-lite, (forunately, no
civilians were killed) but without that enactment of martial law, may have
developed into something far worse over time. Since then, the feds have
been bribing them to stay in the country. Folks like eric who decry the
loss of social programs should check out how much $$ has flowed to Quebec in
the past 30+ years for unnecessary projects and advertizing contracts...
I suppose the parallel I see is the down-trodden Catholic majority ruled by
the rich and arrogant English (helped out, of course, by the burden of
living up to the church's ideal of huge families that necessarily keep one
in the poorhouse). Perhaps because the history was not nearly as ugly in
Quebec, a lot of bllodshed has been avoided.
As for being subjects of her majesty, I never figured you for a monarchist
and hope you are joking, :)! The sooner we throw off the monarchy and
become a federation, the better.
Jane
Jane
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 11:01:13 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HQWVe.2630$6Z1.606800@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip interesting stuff>
Thanks for that! Saves me a google
I suppose the parallel I see is the down-trodden Catholic majority ruled
by
the rich and arrogant English (helped out, of course, by the burden of
living up to the church's ideal of huge families that necessarily keep one
in the poorhouse).
Fair enough, yep, that's a sound parallel. Though a fair few of the Catholic
Irish landlords were gouging their tenants too, it certainly woudln't have
happened if we hadn't interfered to begin with, and then brutally repressed
any Nationalist sympathisers.
Perhaps because the history was not nearly as ugly in
Quebec, a lot of bllodshed has been avoided.
Sounds like it could have become just as ugly! It's a tribute to Canadian
level-headedness that it hasn't. (and this isn't some sort of "dumb mick"
jibe, the British could have shown a lot more level-headedness in our
dealings with Eire). But it illustrates how a bit of empathy with a cause
can at least lead one to ...not justify exactly, but rationalise acts of
terror. THis is why I feel it's dangerous to lump all acts of terror
committed by Muslims together as being expressions of e.g. OBL's insane,
cruel philosophies. Acts of terror against Israel, while certainly
inexcusable, shocking and depraved can be viewed in the context of a
nationalist struggle against an arrogant invader rather than the behaviour
of people who "hate us for our freedoms" and want you cowed in a burkha..
To my mind, the Northern Ireland\Israel parallel still stands - in both
cases I feel the people that are there have a right to stay there - not
because of historical or religious factors but simply because they've been
there so long that the alternative is essentially genocide or an
unnacceptable refugee problem. The only morally acceptable, long term
solution is of course for all sides to learn to live with each other..
dream on.
As for being subjects of her majesty, I never figured you for a monarchist
and hope you are joking, :)!
:-) well.. apart from Prince Phillip, whose rampant xenophobia and
staggering lack of tact has kept me amused for years, I can't really see the
point of them. Except that our (and your!) armed forces are loyal to them
and not the politicians, in principal at least - although the last time that
loyalty was tested the Parliamentarians came out a head ahead (ho ho).
The sooner we throw off the monarchy and
become a federation, the better.
Hand sovereignty back to us and maybe you could join the EU. You can't get
more Federal than that!
Jane
Jane
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
14 Sep 2005 05:01:24 PM |
|
|
"Tom" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dPXVe.33754$d5.189111@newsb.telia.net...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HQWVe.2630$6Z1.606800@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip interesting stuff>
Thanks for that! Saves me a google
It was quite simplified, believe me.
I suppose the parallel I see is the down-trodden Catholic majority ruled
by
the rich and arrogant English (helped out, of course, by the burden of
living up to the church's ideal of huge families that necessarily keep
one
in the poorhouse).
Fair enough, yep, that's a sound parallel. Though a fair few of the
Catholic
Irish landlords were gouging their tenants too, it certainly woudln't have
happened if we hadn't interfered to begin with, and then brutally
repressed
any Nationalist sympathisers.
Perhaps because the history was not nearly as ugly in
Quebec, a lot of bllodshed has been avoided.
Sounds like it could have become just as ugly! It's a tribute to Canadian
level-headedness that it hasn't.
Yes. I was just 9 years old in 1970, so the soldiers in the street were
pretty exciting (we lived just north of Montreal then). My father believed
it could have led to civil war had it been handled differently.
Now, though, it has some fairly draconian laws...bigotted, in fact. You
cannot post a sign in any language, unless you also post a larger one in
French. You must send your child to a French school unless one parent went
to an English school in Quebec (my mother received documents for all four of
us allowing us to send our children to English schools, should we ever
return).
(and this isn't some sort of "dumb mick"
jibe, the British could have shown a lot more level-headedness in our
dealings with Eire). But it illustrates how a bit of empathy with a cause
can at least lead one to ...not justify exactly, but rationalise acts of
terror. THis is why I feel it's dangerous to lump all acts of terror
committed by Muslims together as being expressions of e.g. OBL's insane,
cruel philosophies. Acts of terror against Israel, while certainly
inexcusable, shocking and depraved can be viewed in the context of a
nationalist struggle against an arrogant invader rather than the behaviour
of people who "hate us for our freedoms" and want you cowed in a burkha..
That is a valid arguement, even though I have little sympathy for the
Palestinian cause. I have little for the French-Canadian cause, either, as
they are now pampered and catered to...mind you, I wish sometimes that they
would just separate and get out of our hair!
To my mind, the Northern Ireland\Israel parallel still stands - in both
cases I feel the people that are there have a right to stay there - not
because of historical or religious factors but simply because they've been
there so long that the alternative is essentially genocide or an
unnacceptable refugee problem. The only morally acceptable, long term
solution is of course for all sides to learn to live with each other..
dream on.
Now that is a dream! The Israelis are willing to share; the Arabs are not.
As for being subjects of her majesty, I never figured you for a
monarchist
and hope you are joking, :)!
:-) well.. apart from Prince Phillip, whose rampant xenophobia and
staggering lack of tact has kept me amused for years, I can't really see
the
point of them. Except that our (and your!) armed forces are loyal to them
and not the politicians, in principal at least - although the last time
that
loyalty was tested the Parliamentarians came out a head ahead (ho ho).
The sooner we throw off the monarchy and
become a federation, the better.
Hand sovereignty back to us and maybe you could join the EU. You can't get
more Federal than that!
That doesn't appeal to me in the least, :( (and I'm not especially
anti-Europe...but I am pro-US and would rather join them, if it came to
that)
Jane
Jane
Jane
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
15 Sep 2005 02:33:10 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:F41We.2795$6Z1.661928@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Tom" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dPXVe.33754$d5.189111@newsb.telia.net...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HQWVe.2630$6Z1.606800@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip interesting stuff>
Thanks for that! Saves me a google
It was quite simplified, believe me.
I suppose the parallel I see is the down-trodden Catholic majority
ruled
by
the rich and arrogant English (helped out, of course, by the burden of
living up to the church's ideal of huge families that necessarily keep
one
in the poorhouse).
Fair enough, yep, that's a sound parallel. Though a fair few of the
Catholic
Irish landlords were gouging their tenants too, it certainly woudln't
have
happened if we hadn't interfered to begin with, and then brutally
repressed
any Nationalist sympathisers.
Perhaps because the history was not nearly as ugly in
Quebec, a lot of bllodshed has been avoided.
Sounds like it could have become just as ugly! It's a tribute to
Canadian
level-headedness that it hasn't.
Yes. I was just 9 years old in 1970, so the soldiers in the street were
pretty exciting (we lived just north of Montreal then). My father
believed
it could have led to civil war had it been handled differently.
Now, though, it has some fairly draconian laws...bigotted, in fact. You
cannot post a sign in any language, unless you also post a larger one in
French. You must send your child to a French school unless one parent
went
to an English school in Quebec (my mother received documents for all four
of
us allowing us to send our children to English schools, should we ever
return).
(and this isn't some sort of "dumb mick"
jibe, the British could have shown a lot more level-headedness in our
dealings with Eire). But it illustrates how a bit of empathy with a
cause
can at least lead one to ...not justify exactly, but rationalise acts of
terror. THis is why I feel it's dangerous to lump all acts of terror
committed by Muslims together as being expressions of e.g. OBL's insane,
cruel philosophies. Acts of terror against Israel, while certainly
inexcusable, shocking and depraved can be viewed in the context of a
nationalist struggle against an arrogant invader rather than the
behaviour
of people who "hate us for our freedoms" and want you cowed in a
burkha..
That is a valid arguement, even though I have little sympathy for the
Palestinian cause. I have little for the French-Canadian cause, either,
as
they are now pampered and catered to...mind you, I wish sometimes that
they
would just separate and get out of our hair!
To my mind, the Northern Ireland\Israel parallel still stands - in both
cases I feel the people that are there have a right to stay there - not
because of historical or religious factors but simply because they've
been
there so long that the alternative is essentially genocide or an
unnacceptable refugee problem. The only morally acceptable, long term
solution is of course for all sides to learn to live with each other..
dream on.
Now that is a dream! The Israelis are willing to share; the Arabs are
not.
Hmm.. so willing to share that they've spent the past 60 years grabbing land
every chance they got. I really thought we were making some progress here..
ah well.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
15 Sep 2005 06:27:44 AM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dgb83m$2uj$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:F41We.2795$6Z1.661928@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Tom" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dPXVe.33754$d5.189111@newsb.telia.net...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HQWVe.2630$6Z1.606800@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip interesting stuff>
Thanks for that! Saves me a google
It was quite simplified, believe me.
I suppose the parallel I see is the down-trodden Catholic majority
ruled
by
the rich and arrogant English (helped out, of course, by the burden of
living up to the church's ideal of huge families that necessarily keep
one
in the poorhouse).
Fair enough, yep, that's a sound parallel. Though a fair few of the
Catholic
Irish landlords were gouging their tenants too, it certainly woudln't
have
happened if we hadn't interfered to begin with, and then brutally
repressed
any Nationalist sympathisers.
Perhaps because the history was not nearly as ugly in
Quebec, a lot of bllodshed has been avoided.
Sounds like it could have become just as ugly! It's a tribute to
Canadian
level-headedness that it hasn't.
Yes. I was just 9 years old in 1970, so the soldiers in the street were
pretty exciting (we lived just north of Montreal then). My father
believed
it could have led to civil war had it been handled differently.
Now, though, it has some fairly draconian laws...bigotted, in fact. You
cannot post a sign in any language, unless you also post a larger one in
French. You must send your child to a French school unless one parent
went
to an English school in Quebec (my mother received documents for all four
of
us allowing us to send our children to English schools, should we ever
return).
(and this isn't some sort of "dumb mick"
jibe, the British could have shown a lot more level-headedness in our
dealings with Eire). But it illustrates how a bit of empathy with a
cause
can at least lead one to ...not justify exactly, but rationalise acts
of
terror. THis is why I feel it's dangerous to lump all acts of terror
committed by Muslims together as being expressions of e.g. OBL's
insane,
cruel philosophies. Acts of terror against Israel, while certainly
inexcusable, shocking and depraved can be viewed in the context of a
nationalist struggle against an arrogant invader rather than the
behaviour
of people who "hate us for our freedoms" and want you cowed in a
burkha..
That is a valid arguement, even though I have little sympathy for the
Palestinian cause. I have little for the French-Canadian cause, either,
as
they are now pampered and catered to...mind you, I wish sometimes that
they
would just separate and get out of our hair!
To my mind, the Northern Ireland\Israel parallel still stands - in both
cases I feel the people that are there have a right to stay there - not
because of historical or religious factors but simply because they've
been
there so long that the alternative is essentially genocide or an
unnacceptable refugee problem. The only morally acceptable, long term
solution is of course for all sides to learn to live with each other..
dream on.
Now that is a dream! The Israelis are willing to share; the Arabs are
not.
Hmm.. so willing to share that they've spent the past 60 years grabbing
land
every chance they got. I really thought we were making some progress
here..
ah well.
They were willing at Oslo, the Palestinians were not. They just finished
kicking their own people out of their homes in Gaza. The returned the Sinai
to Egypt and Sadat paid the price for that negotiation with his life. Etc.
Jane
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
15 Sep 2005 06:59:13 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:zUcWe.3053$6Z1.758387@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dgb83m$2uj$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se...
<snip<
To my mind, the Northern Ireland\Israel parallel still stands - in
both
cases I feel the people that are there have a right to stay there -
not
because of historical or religious factors but simply because they've
been
there so long that the alternative is essentially genocide or an
unnacceptable refugee problem. The only morally acceptable, long term
solution is of course for all sides to learn to live with each
other..
dream on.
Now that is a dream! The Israelis are willing to share; the Arabs are
not.
Hmm.. so willing to share that they've spent the past 60 years grabbing
land
every chance they got. I really thought we were making some progress
here..
ah well.
They were willing at Oslo, the Palestinians were not.
Well, I'm not surprised seeing as they had ALREADY done all their land grabs
by then, and weren't offering a viable state to Palestine. Perhaps the
Palestinans should have just shut up and taken what was being offered, but
then again, pehaprs the Nationalist Irish should have just shut up and
accepted the loss of Armargh and Fermanagh?
They just finished kicking their own people out of their homes in Gaza.
Yeah, only because of MASSIVE pressure on them from the US and UK to restart
the peace process. They certainly didn't do it in a "willing to share"
spirit..and of course, you're forgetting they people THEY kicked out and
bulldozed in order to get in ther ein the first place..
The returned the Sinai to Egypt and Sadat paid the price for that
negotiation with his life. Etc.
Giving back something you stole isn't generally regarded as "sharing" you
know...
Jane
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
15 Sep 2005 04:18:40 PM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:zUcWe.3053$6Z1.758387@news20.bellglobal.com...
They were willing at Oslo, the Palestinians were not. They just finished
kicking their own people out of their homes in Gaza. The returned the
Sinai
to Egypt and Sadat paid the price for that negotiation with his life.
Etc.
Jane
...and of course, Rabin didn't live long after Oslo etc.
Point being, there's blame to go round, and then some. I have already stated
that I support the Israelis right to a homeland in Israel and a hearty well
done to them for handing over Gaza. Hopefully moderation on both sides will
prevail but Israel has to make further compromise, the Palestinians too -
indeed it's their turn now.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
15 Sep 2005 05:07:10 PM |
|
|
"Tom" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:QylWe.33882$d5.189266@newsb.telia.net...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:zUcWe.3053$6Z1.758387@news20.bellglobal.com...
They were willing at Oslo, the Palestinians were not. They just
finished
kicking their own people out of their homes in Gaza. The returned the
Sinai
to Egypt and Sadat paid the price for that negotiation with his life.
Etc.
Jane
..and of course, Rabin didn't live long after Oslo etc.
Point being, there's blame to go round, and then some. I have already
stated
that I support the Israelis right to a homeland in Israel and a hearty
well
done to them for handing over Gaza. Hopefully moderation on both sides
will
prevail but Israel has to make further compromise, the Palestinians too -
indeed it's their turn now.
So we are fairly close to agreeing, then. Amazing!
Jane
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "WH" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
15 Sep 2005 05:41:12 AM |
|
|
Jane wrote:
"Tom" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dPXVe.33754$d5.189111@newsb.telia.net...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HQWVe.2630$6Z1.606800@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip interesting stuff>
Thanks for that! Saves me a google
It was quite simplified, believe me.
I suppose the parallel I see is the down-trodden Catholic majority rul=
ed
by
the rich and arrogant English (helped out, of course, by the burden of
living up to the church's ideal of huge families that necessarily keep
one
in the poorhouse).
Fair enough, yep, that's a sound parallel. Though a fair few of the
Catholic
Irish landlords were gouging their tenants too, it certainly woudln't h=
ave
happened if we hadn't interfered to begin with, and then brutally
repressed
any Nationalist sympathisers.
Perhaps because the history was not nearly as ugly in
Quebec, a lot of bllodshed has been avoided.
Sounds like it could have become just as ugly! It's a tribute to Canadi=
an
level-headedness that it hasn't.
Yes. I was just 9 years old in 1970, so the soldiers in the street were
pretty exciting (we lived just north of Montreal then). My father believ=
ed
it could have led to civil war had it been handled differently.
Now, though, it has some fairly draconian laws...bigotted, in fact. You
cannot post a sign in any language, unless you also post a larger one in
French. You must send your child to a French school unless one parent we=
nt
to an English school in Quebec (my mother received documents for all four=
of
us allowing us to send our children to English schools, should we ever
return).
(and this isn't some sort of "dumb mick"
jibe, the British could have shown a lot more level-headedness in our
dealings with Eire). But it illustrates how a bit of empathy with a cau=
se
can at least lead one to ...not justify exactly, but rationalise acts of
terror. THis is why I feel it's dangerous to lump all acts of terror
committed by Muslims together as being expressions of e.g. OBL's insane,
cruel philosophies. Acts of terror against Israel, while certainly
inexcusable, shocking and depraved can be viewed in the context of a
nationalist struggle against an arrogant invader rather than the behavi=
our
of people who "hate us for our freedoms" and want you cowed in a burkha=
..=2E
That is a valid arguement, even though I have little sympathy for the
Palestinian cause. I have little for the French-Canadian cause, either, =
as
they are now pampered and catered to...mind you, I wish sometimes that th=
ey
would just separate and get out of our hair!
To my mind, the Northern Ireland\Israel parallel still stands - in both
cases I feel the people that are there have a right to stay there - not
because of historical or religious factors but simply because they've b=
een
there so long that the alternative is essentially genocide or an
unnacceptable refugee problem. The only morally acceptable, long term
solution is of course for all sides to learn to live with each other..
dream on.
Now that is a dream! The Israelis are willing to share; the Arabs are no=
t=2E
As for being subjects of her majesty, I never figured you for a
monarchist
and hope you are joking, :)!
:-) well.. apart from Prince Phillip, whose rampant xenophobia and
staggering lack of tact has kept me amused for years, I can't really see
the
point of them. Except that our (and your!) armed forces are loyal to th=
em
and not the politicians, in principal at least - although the last time
that
loyalty was tested the Parliamentarians came out a head ahead (ho ho).
The sooner we throw off the monarchy and
become a federation, the better.
Hand sovereignty back to us and maybe you could join the EU. You can't =
get
more Federal than that!
That doesn't appeal to me in the least, :( (and I'm not especially
anti-Europe...but I am pro-US and would rather join them, if it came to
that)
Jane
Let me stick my nose in here a bit!
The idea that there are parallels between a non existant Canadian force
and the situation in Northern Ireland is a joke at best. Forget it. How
ignorant can one get eh? D=E4remot, there are lots of parallels between
the palestinian cause and the Irish one. Jane you ignorant *****, as
someone used to say, you are, as usual, stupidly wrong. Go read a
fuckin' book!
I agree that you are "pro US" and would join them because you are as
ignorant as they are about the rest of the world.
"The Israelis are willing to share" ou say. To share what? To share
death, destruction, racism, apartheid, YES! Anything else forget it.
It's those "books" isin't it? It's those that have you as bigotted as
you are. I don't think you even realise how stupid you sound. Totally
ignorant! It amazes me how people in this day and age can be so fuckin'
stupid!
WH
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| User: "Jane" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
15 Sep 2005 06:29:57 AM |
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"WH" <bollogs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126780872.934087.273470@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Jane wrote:
"Tom" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dPXVe.33754$d5.189111@newsb.telia.net...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HQWVe.2630$6Z1.606800@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip>
You and eric do make a good pair. You feel I have no right to comment on
Ireland; fine. Since you didn't live in Quebec in 1970, you have no right
to comment either.
I usually ignore your posts; I will again from now on.
Jane
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| User: "WH" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
15 Sep 2005 11:04:01 AM |
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Jane wrote:
"WH" <bollogs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126780872.934087.273470@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Jane wrote:
"Tom" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:dPXVe.33754$d5.189111@newsb.telia.net...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HQWVe.2630$6Z1.606800@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip>
You and eric do make a good pair. You feel I have no right to comment on
Ireland; fine.
That's what I mean about you being fuckin' stupid. I said nothing of
the sort. You can comment all you like on what you like, but I reserve
the right to tell you that your comments are stupid/ignorant if I am of
the opinion that they are...geddit?
Since you didn't live in Quebec in 1970, you have no right
to comment either.
How do you know where I didn't live in 1970?
I usually ignore your posts; I will again from now on.
Do that...I'll tell you that your comments are stupid/ignorant whenever
I feel that they are so...if you don't mind that is!
Jane
WH
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
15 Sep 2005 07:55:32 AM |
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WH wrote:
"The Israelis are willing to share" ou say. To share what? To share
death, destruction, racism, apartheid, YES! Anything else forget it.
After the creation of Israel in 1948, The Israelis would have been
happy to live in peace with their neighbors. Instead, they were
immediately attacked. If Hitler had prevailed in WWII, he and his buddy
the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem would have exterminated all the Jews in
the Palestine Mandate. Would that have made you happy?
It's those "books" isin't it? It's those that have you as bigotted as
you are. I don't think you even realise how stupid you sound.
I don't think you even realize how stupid YOU sound. You're not very
good at persusive argument, are you? All your "bull in a china shop"
approach does is push anyone you're trying to convince even further
away from your own bigoted position.
And now I'd like to thank Jane for giving you another opportunty to
embrace (and express for all to see) your narrowly bigoted anti-semite
racist approach to life. Hitler's buddy, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem,
would have been proud of you.
.
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| User: "tw" |
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| Title: Re: Christian terrorists continue to rampage in Belfast. |
15 Sep 2005 08:20:37 AM |
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"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126788932.374828.20400@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
WH wrote:
"The Israelis are willing to share" ou say. To share what? To share
death, destruction, racism, apartheid, YES! Anything else forget it.
After the creation of Israel in 1948, The Israelis would have been
happy to live in peace with their neighbors.
Historical events don't support that view - how come that a couple of years
before, the British were stuck in the middle trying to keep BOTH sides from
killing each other (and suffering many casualties at the hands of Zionist
terrorists) if they were so willing to "live in peace"?
One can hardly blame the Palestinians for embarking on a campaign of
terrorism after seeinghow well the Israelis were rewarded for theirs.
Instead, they were
immediately attacked. If Hitler had prevailed in WWII, he and his buddy
the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem would have exterminated all the Jews in
the Palestine Mandate. Would that have made you happy?
Ah.. the old "Mufti argument". NOw, in a recent discussion, you said it was
fine for the US to support Saddam's regime with its raping and killing of
babies when it was in the interests of the US - namely tempering Iran who
were a threat to the US. Which surely means you can understand the Mufti's
choice of allegiance - especially considering what happened to his hometown
post 1945...
Funny how you can excuse one unholy alliance but not the other...
It's those "books" isin't it? It's those that have you as bigotted as
you are. I don't think you even realise how stupid you sound.
I don't think you even realize how stupid YOU sound. You're not very
good at persusive argument, are you? All your "bull in a china shop"
approach does is push anyone you're trying to convince even further
away from your own bigoted position.
And now I'd like to thank Jane for giving you another opportunty to
embrace (and express for all to see) your narrowly bigoted anti-semite
racist approach to life.
Now you're being Tony-stupid Steven. What anti semitic or racist statements
did Chris make in his post?
Hitler's buddy, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem,
would have been proud of you.
Like Bush's baby-murdering buddy Saddam would be proud of you?
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