Friday, September 23, 2005. Issue 3259. Page 1.
Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children
By Nabi Abdullaev
Staff Writer
At least 11 mothers of children who perished in last year's Beslan school
attack have turned to a cult that promises to resurrect the dead for
money.
Some Beslan families fear that the mothers' quest will discredit their
efforts to establish the truth about the attack, which killed 331 people,
including 186 children.
Police say their hands are tied because no one has filed a complaint.
Susanna Dudiyeva and Anneta Gadiyeva, who complained to President Vladimir
Putin at a Sept. 2 meeting about the handling of the hostage-taking
crisis, joined nine other mothers at the Kosmos hotel last Saturday for a
gathering of 400 followers of Grigory Grabovoi.
"I believe in the miracle of resurrection," Dudiyeva said, her voice
trembling, as she stood next to Grabovoi on the podium.
"I used to read fairy tales to my children. I told them to believe in them
and to believe in God," she said, in footage shown on NTV television. "We
will follow this path until the very end for the sake of our children."
Grabovoi, who covered the mothers' travel expenses, called the meeting the
sixth congress of the "DRUGG political party." DRUGG, which sounds like
the Russian word for "friend," is the Russian acronym for the Voluntary
Dissemination of Grigory Grabovoi Teaching.
Grabovoi promised attendees that Beslan children would be resurrected in
October, Izvestia reported.
According to DRUGG literature and previous lectures by Grabovoi, he offers
people the chance to learn how to resurrect their loved ones on their own.
Grabovoi, however, does not accept responsibility for failure, saying the
dead sometimes refuse to be resurrected, or are resurrected in other parts
of the world or in the bodies of other people.
But Zalina Guburova, who lost her 9-year-old son in the attack, was ready
to accept his terms. "I want my child back, and I will believe in anything
to get him," she told NTV.
At Saturday's gathering, a woman stood up and loudly accused Grabovoi of
being a charlatan. She was led away by two of his guards.
"Many people told us that we would be cheated and drawn into something
here," Dudiyeva then said, Komsomolskaya Pravda reported. "But we are just
mothers whose souls are in pain."
Representatives of various cults started surfacing in Beslan shortly after
the Sept. 1-3 tragedy to offer their counsel, local residents said.
Grabovoi's group, which bluntly offers to resurrect dead children, seems
to have made the biggest impact on the grieving parents.
"Many cults remain low-profile until a suitable moment suddenly comes and
people in the cult say the needed words," said Alexander Dvorkin, the
country's leading expert on cults.
Fascination in the supernatural, of course, goes back centuries in Russia.
Interest flourished when religion was officially banned in Soviet times,
and it skyrocketed after the demise of the Soviet Union, when an
ideological vacuum became filled with whatever was on offer. During the
1990s, psychics were even allowed on national television to cast spells at
millions of viewers.
Repeated attempts to contact Grabovoi this week were unsuccessful. A
secretary at his office said Grabovoi had never visited the building. The
office arranges meetings with him at a cost of 1,000 rubles ($35) per
person for a group meeting and up to 40,000 rubles ($1,350) for an
individual interview.
Before the Beslan tragedy, Grabovoi, 40, was one of many self-proclaimed
miracle workers who offered a standard list of paranormal services,
including promises to heal cancer and "optimize events."
He was first mentioned in the national media in late 2002, when he offered
to resurrect those who died in Moscow's Dubrovka theater hostage-taking.
His web site makes no mention of any successful Dubrovka resurrections,
but it does include a statement by Grabovoi that if he became president in
2008, his first decree would be to ban death and criminally punish
violators.
The web site also features dozens of scanned images of Grabovoi's diplomas
and other credentials, including a presidential administration
identification card.
Many organizations named on the web site denied ever dealing with
Grabovoi, according to media reports.
The Emergency Situations Ministry acknowledged, however, that it had asked
Grabovoi to examine airplanes for hidden defects as part of a
government-financed study into the paranormal in the mid-1990s. At the
time, the government sponsored several studies of the paranormal, most of
them related to whether the supernatural could be harnessed to control
public behavior.
Dudiyeva, who heads the Beslan Mothers' Committee, could not be reached
for comment this week.
But Ella Kesayeva, an activist with the committee, suggested that her
peers had been drawn to the cult because the authorities hoped to
discredit the committee, which is widely respected for its tireless
efforts to learn what really happened at the school.
"Most of us do not share those ravings about resurrection, and we believe
that this filthy story was invented to cast our committee in a bad light,"
she said by telephone. "We believe in God. We don't need charlatans. We
are past the most painful times, and we don't want to turn into zombies."
Kesayeva accused Grabovoi of taking advantage of the mothers and said he
should be punished.
Moscow City Prosecutor's Office spokesman Sergei Marchenko said Thursday
that prosecutors had tried to investigate Grabovoi's activities in the
past and were now reviewing their records of those attempts. However, no
action has been taken against Grabovoi because no one has filed a
complaint, he said.
Yana Voitova, a North Ossetia-based journalist, said she knew of at least
two Beslan mothers who were collecting the 40,000 ruble fee in hope of
seeing their children again.
Mairbek Tuayev, a Beslan resident who lost his daughter, said several
Grabovoi representatives came to the town late last year to distribute
literature. "They are hitting at the most painful spots," he said. "They
told my wife that it would be easier to bring back my daughter because her
twin sister was alive."
Tuayev said one father whose daughter died was telling friends that a way
had been invented to pass between the worlds of the dead and the living
but that the government was hiding it from people.
Dvorkin said cults preyed on people in emotional shock. "Then it is easier
to make them believe in anything," he said.
Many people, regardless of their intelligence, struggle with an internal
debate about life and death when they face the excruciating pain of losing
a loved one, said Natalya Kolmanovskaya, a psychologist with Nasha Zhizn,
or Our Life, a charity assisting Beslan families.
She noted that Beslan mothers who had jobs and felt socially responsible
recovered from the shock much better than housewives in affluent families.
Without help the women may end up mentally ill and only countless hours of
therapy could help them put aside their hope for resurrections, she said.
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2005/09/23/003.html
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| User: "tw" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
26 Sep 2005 03:32:25 AM |
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"Doc" <bushelsofbushrot@HellsHereNow.com> wrote in message
news:dh45l30v5i@enews2.newsguy.com...
Friday, September 23, 2005. Issue 3259. Page 1.
Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children
<snip>
Dudiyeva, who heads the Beslan Mothers' Committee, could not be reached
for comment this week.
But Ella Kesayeva, an activist with the committee, suggested that her
peers had been drawn to the cult because the authorities hoped to
discredit the committee, which is widely respected for its tireless
efforts to learn what really happened at the school.
"Most of us do not share those ravings about resurrection, and we believe
that this filthy story was invented to cast our committee in a bad light,"
she said by telephone. "We believe in God. We don't need charlatans. We
are past the most painful times, and we don't want to turn into zombies."
Kesayeva accused Grabovoi of taking advantage of the mothers and said he
should be punished.
Moscow City Prosecutor's Office spokesman Sergei Marchenko said Thursday
that prosecutors had tried to investigate Grabovoi's activities in the
past and were now reviewing their records of those attempts. However, no
action has been taken against Grabovoi because no one has filed a
complaint, he said.
Yana Voitova, a North Ossetia-based journalist, said she knew of at least
two Beslan mothers who were collecting the 40,000 ruble fee in hope of
seeing their children again.
Jesus. What a revolting, inhuman fucking scam. why is it religions have this
nasty ability to target the most vulnerable and gouge them for their money?
.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
26 Sep 2005 07:12:45 PM |
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tw wrote:
"Doc" <bushelsofbushrot@HellsHereNow.com> wrote in message
news:dh45l30v5i@enews2.newsguy.com...
Friday, September 23, 2005. Issue 3259. Page 1.
Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children
<snip>
Dudiyeva, who heads the Beslan Mothers' Committee, could not be reached
for comment this week.
But Ella Kesayeva, an activist with the committee, suggested that her
peers had been drawn to the cult because the authorities hoped to
discredit the committee, which is widely respected for its tireless
efforts to learn what really happened at the school.
"Most of us do not share those ravings about resurrection, and we believe
that this filthy story was invented to cast our committee in a bad light,"
she said by telephone. "We believe in God. We don't need charlatans. We
are past the most painful times, and we don't want to turn into zombies."
Kesayeva accused Grabovoi of taking advantage of the mothers and said he
should be punished.
Moscow City Prosecutor's Office spokesman Sergei Marchenko said Thursday
that prosecutors had tried to investigate Grabovoi's activities in the
past and were now reviewing their records of those attempts. However, no
action has been taken against Grabovoi because no one has filed a
complaint, he said.
Yana Voitova, a North Ossetia-based journalist, said she knew of at least
two Beslan mothers who were collecting the 40,000 ruble fee in hope of
seeing their children again.
Jesus. What a revolting, inhuman fucking scam. why is it religions have this
nasty ability to target the most vulnerable and gouge them for their money?
I think it's more a matter of religious organizations wield a
considerable amount of power, and therefore attract unscrupulous people.
Since people are, for the most part, taught to suspend critical
thinking with regards to religious and/or spiritual precepts, they are
more easily duped by the unscrupulous.
IOW, it's not a matter of religions, per se, targeting the vulnerable,
as those who are predatorial in nature using religions to prey on their
victims. Although, the net effect is the same.
Woods
.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
26 Sep 2005 09:47:41 AM |
|
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tw wrote:
"Doc" <bushelsofbushrot@HellsHereNow.com> wrote in message
news:dh45l30v5i@enews2.newsguy.com...
Friday, September 23, 2005. Issue 3259. Page 1.
Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children
<snip>
Dudiyeva, who heads the Beslan Mothers' Committee, could not be reached
for comment this week.
But Ella Kesayeva, an activist with the committee, suggested that her
peers had been drawn to the cult because the authorities hoped to
discredit the committee, which is widely respected for its tireless
efforts to learn what really happened at the school.
"Most of us do not share those ravings about resurrection, and we believe
that this filthy story was invented to cast our committee in a bad light,"
she said by telephone. "We believe in God. We don't need charlatans. We
are past the most painful times, and we don't want to turn into zombies."
Kesayeva accused Grabovoi of taking advantage of the mothers and said he
should be punished.
Moscow City Prosecutor's Office spokesman Sergei Marchenko said Thursday
that prosecutors had tried to investigate Grabovoi's activities in the
past and were now reviewing their records of those attempts. However, no
action has been taken against Grabovoi because no one has filed a
complaint, he said.
Yana Voitova, a North Ossetia-based journalist, said she knew of at least
two Beslan mothers who were collecting the 40,000 ruble fee in hope of
seeing their children again.
Jesus. What a revolting, inhuman fucking scam.
Yes it is, but Jesus has nothing to do with it.
why is it religions have this nasty ability to target the most vulnerable
and gouge them for their money?
What religion would that be? I'm left to wonder why an obvious
*charlatan* would take advantage of the most vulnerable and gouge them
for their money.
.
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| User: "tw" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
26 Sep 2005 10:18:36 AM |
|
|
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127746061.818435.207230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Doc" <bushelsofbushrot@HellsHereNow.com> wrote in message
news:dh45l30v5i@enews2.newsguy.com...
Friday, September 23, 2005. Issue 3259. Page 1.
Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children
<snip>
Dudiyeva, who heads the Beslan Mothers' Committee, could not be
reached
for comment this week.
But Ella Kesayeva, an activist with the committee, suggested that her
peers had been drawn to the cult because the authorities hoped to
discredit the committee, which is widely respected for its tireless
efforts to learn what really happened at the school.
"Most of us do not share those ravings about resurrection, and we
believe
that this filthy story was invented to cast our committee in a bad
light,"
she said by telephone. "We believe in God. We don't need charlatans.
We
are past the most painful times, and we don't want to turn into
zombies."
Kesayeva accused Grabovoi of taking advantage of the mothers and said
he
should be punished.
Moscow City Prosecutor's Office spokesman Sergei Marchenko said
Thursday
that prosecutors had tried to investigate Grabovoi's activities in the
past and were now reviewing their records of those attempts. However,
no
action has been taken against Grabovoi because no one has filed a
complaint, he said.
Yana Voitova, a North Ossetia-based journalist, said she knew of at
least
two Beslan mothers who were collecting the 40,000 ruble fee in hope of
seeing their children again.
Jesus. What a revolting, inhuman fucking scam.
Yes it is, but Jesus has nothing to do with it.
I'm sure he wouldn't have. Proto-communist that he was.
why is it religions have this nasty ability to target the most
vulnerable
and gouge them for their money?
What religion would that be?
The one above, for a start.
I'm left to wonder why an obvious *charlatan* would take advantage of the
most vulnerable and gouge them
for their money.
Some charlatans aren't quite so obvious... the answer I suppose is "greed"
and "total lack of empathy or morals".
.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
26 Sep 2005 11:24:02 AM |
|
|
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127746061.818435.207230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Doc" <bushelsofbushrot@HellsHereNow.com> wrote in message
news:dh45l30v5i@enews2.newsguy.com...
Friday, September 23, 2005. Issue 3259. Page 1.
Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children
<snip>
Jesus. What a revolting, inhuman fucking scam.
Yes it is, but Jesus has nothing to do with it.
I'm sure he wouldn't have. Proto-communist that he was.
why is it religions have this nasty ability to target the most
vulnerable and gouge them for their money?
What religion would that be?
The one above, for a start.
It makes no reference to religion. Even the charlatan, Grabovoi, refers
to his group as a politial party.
From the article: [quote] Grabovoi, who covered the mothers' travel
expenses, called the meeting the sixth congress of the "DRUGG political
party." [end quote]
I'm left to wonder why an obvious *charlatan* would take advantage of the
most vulnerable and gouge them for their money.
Some charlatans aren't quite so obvious... the answer I suppose is "greed"
and "total lack of empathy or morals".
Yes, and unfortunately, he has an audience of people who lived in a
society that suppressed religion for many years ...
From the article: [quote] Fascination in the supernatural, of course,
goes back centuries in Russia. Interest flourished when religion was
officially banned in Soviet times, and it skyrocketed after the demise
of the Soviet Union, when an ideological vacuum became filled with
whatever was on offer. [end quote]
There's an old adage that holds true in this case: "Those who believe
in nothing will fall for anything."
From the article: [quote] "Most of us do not share those ravings about
resurrection, and we believe that this filthy story was invented to
cast our committee in a bad light," she said by telephone. "We believe
in God. We don't need charlatans. We are past the most painful times,
and we don't want to turn into zombies." [end quote]
You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims.
.
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| User: "tw" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
26 Sep 2005 11:46:23 AM |
|
|
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127751842.712564.255040@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127746061.818435.207230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Doc" <bushelsofbushrot@HellsHereNow.com> wrote in message
news:dh45l30v5i@enews2.newsguy.com...
Friday, September 23, 2005. Issue 3259. Page 1.
Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children
<snip>
Jesus. What a revolting, inhuman fucking scam.
Yes it is, but Jesus has nothing to do with it.
I'm sure he wouldn't have. Proto-communist that he was.
why is it religions have this nasty ability to target the most
vulnerable and gouge them for their money?
What religion would that be?
The one above, for a start.
It makes no reference to religion. Even the charlatan, Grabovoi, refers
to his group as a politial party.
I'd love to know what the difference between a cult and a religion was, you
know. Or the politics of raising the dead..
From the article: [quote] Grabovoi, who covered the mothers' travel
expenses, called the meeting the sixth congress of the "DRUGG political
party." [end quote]
I'm left to wonder why an obvious *charlatan* would take advantage of
the
most vulnerable and gouge them for their money.
Some charlatans aren't quite so obvious... the answer I suppose is
"greed"
and "total lack of empathy or morals".
Yes, and unfortunately, he has an audience of people who lived in a
society that suppressed religion for many years ...
It may be factor. Though the USSR wasn't especially suppressive of religion,
you kow. Peopel still attended churches openly etc.
From the article: [quote] Fascination in the supernatural, of course,
goes back centuries in Russia. Interest flourished when religion was
officially banned in Soviet times, and it skyrocketed after the demise
of the Soviet Union, when an ideological vacuum became filled with
whatever was on offer. [end quote]
There's an old adage that holds true in this case: "Those who believe
in nothing will fall for anything."
Quite obviously these people all believed in something though, so the adage,
cute though it is, holds no water in this case.
From the article: [quote] "Most of us do not share those ravings about
resurrection, and we believe that this filthy story was invented to
cast our committee in a bad light," she said by telephone. "We believe
in God. We don't need charlatans. We are past the most painful times,
and we don't want to turn into zombies." [end quote]
You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims.
Or a different charlatan got to them first.. albeit a more benevolent one.
.
|
|
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
26 Sep 2005 01:55:34 PM |
|
|
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127751842.712564.255040@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127746061.818435.207230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Doc" <bushelsofbushrot@HellsHereNow.com> wrote in message
news:dh45l30v5i@enews2.newsguy.com...
Friday, September 23, 2005. Issue 3259. Page 1.
Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children
<snip>
Jesus. What a revolting, inhuman fucking scam.
Yes it is, but Jesus has nothing to do with it.
I'm sure he wouldn't have. Proto-communist that he was.
why is it religions have this nasty ability to target the most
vulnerable and gouge them for their money?
What religion would that be?
The one above, for a start.
It makes no reference to religion. Even the charlatan, Grabovoi, refers
to his group as a politial party.
I'd love to know what the difference between a cult and a religion was, you
know. Or the politics of raising the dead..
In this case, the cult is an extremist organization with a charismatic
leader. It has no relationship or resemblance to any mainstream
organized religion.
From the article: [quote] Grabovoi, who covered the mothers' travel
expenses, called the meeting the sixth congress of the "DRUGG political
party." [end quote]
I'm left to wonder why an obvious *charlatan* would take advantage of
the most vulnerable and gouge them for their money.
Some charlatans aren't quite so obvious... the answer I suppose is
"greed" and "total lack of empathy or morals".
Yes, and unfortunately, he has an audience of people who lived in a
society that suppressed religion for many years ...
It may be factor. Though the USSR wasn't especially suppressive of religion,
you kow. Peopel still attended churches openly etc.
Young Soviet Communists were indoctrinated in their schooling that
belief in God was foolish, but belief in government was wise.
From the article: [quote] Fascination in the supernatural, of course,
goes back centuries in Russia. Interest flourished when religion was
officially banned in Soviet times, and it skyrocketed after the demise
of the Soviet Union, when an ideological vacuum became filled with
whatever was on offer. [end quote]
There's an old adage that holds true in this case: "Those who believe
in nothing will fall for anything."
Quite obviously these people all believed in something though, so the adage,
cute though it is, holds no water in this case.
They do believe in something -- the wrong thing, because they're not
rooted with a belief in God.
From the article: [quote] "Most of us do not share those ravings about
resurrection, and we believe that this filthy story was invented to
cast our committee in a bad light," she said by telephone. "We believe
in God. We don't need charlatans. We are past the most painful times,
and we don't want to turn into zombies." [end quote]
You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims.
Or a different charlatan got to them first.. albeit a more benevolent one.
Just referring to this case -- the woman quoted above is not falling
for the charlatan's claims *because* of her belief in God.
.
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| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
27 Sep 2005 02:26:36 AM |
|
|
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127760934.788623.37990@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127751842.712564.255040@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127746061.818435.207230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Doc" <bushelsofbushrot@HellsHereNow.com> wrote in message
news:dh45l30v5i@enews2.newsguy.com...
Friday, September 23, 2005. Issue 3259. Page 1.
Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children
<snip>
Jesus. What a revolting, inhuman fucking scam.
Yes it is, but Jesus has nothing to do with it.
I'm sure he wouldn't have. Proto-communist that he was.
why is it religions have this nasty ability to target the most
vulnerable and gouge them for their money?
What religion would that be?
The one above, for a start.
It makes no reference to religion. Even the charlatan, Grabovoi,
refers
to his group as a politial party.
I'd love to know what the difference between a cult and a religion was,
you
know. Or the politics of raising the dead..
In this case, the cult is an extremist organization
Eh? Are you claiming the concept of resurrection is "extremist"? Or is this
more Dougie word-defining?
with a charismatic leader. It has no relationship or resemblance to any
mainstream
organized religion.
Hmm... they teach lif after death and have an iconic, charismatic leader.
Sounds an awful lot liek a raft or religions..
Yes, and unfortunately, he has an audience of people who lived in a
society that suppressed religion for many years ...
It may be factor. Though the USSR wasn't especially suppressive of
religion,
you kow. Peopel still attended churches openly etc.
Young Soviet Communists were indoctrinated in their schooling that
belief in God was foolish, but belief in government was wise.
Yet they were never forbidden from attending church, religon wasn't outlawed
etc.
There's an old adage that holds true in this case: "Those who believe
in nothing will fall for anything."
Quite obviously these people all believed in something though, so the
adage,
cute though it is, holds no water in this case.
They do believe in something -- the wrong thing, because they're not
rooted with a belief in God.
So you think they believed this *because* they didn't believe in god?! As
someone else asked - would an aetheist have fallen for this scam? Really?
From the article: [quote] "Most of us do not share those ravings about
resurrection, and we believe that this filthy story was invented to
cast our committee in a bad light," she said by telephone. "We believe
in God. We don't need charlatans. We are past the most painful times,
and we don't want to turn into zombies." [end quote]
You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims.
Or a different charlatan got to them first.. albeit a more benevolent
one.
Just referring to this case -- the woman quoted above is not falling
for the charlatan's claims *because* of her belief in God.
Nowhere does she claim she didn't fall for them *because* she believed in
god..
.
|
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
27 Sep 2005 01:01:41 PM |
|
|
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127760934.788623.37990@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127751842.712564.255040@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127746061.818435.207230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Doc" <bushelsofbushrot@HellsHereNow.com> wrote in message
news:dh45l30v5i@enews2.newsguy.com...
Friday, September 23, 2005. Issue 3259. Page 1.
Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children
<snip>
Jesus. What a revolting, inhuman fucking scam.
Yes it is, but Jesus has nothing to do with it.
I'm sure he wouldn't have. Proto-communist that he was.
why is it religions have this nasty ability to target the most
vulnerable and gouge them for their money?
What religion would that be?
The one above, for a start.
It makes no reference to religion. Even the charlatan, Grabovoi,
refers to his group as a politial party.
I'd love to know what the difference between a cult and a religion was,
you know. Or the politics of raising the dead..
In this case, the cult is an extremist organization
Eh? Are you claiming the concept of resurrection is "extremist"? Or is this
more Dougie word-defining?
In this case, the concept of resurrection is extremist. Are you saying
some charlatan who comes along and says he can resurrect human beings
is not an extremist? It might be a different story if he could actually
do it ... but then he's obviously a charlatan out to take advantage of
some very confused people.
with a charismatic leader. It has no relationship or resemblance to any
mainstream organized religion.
Hmm... they teach lif after death and have an iconic, charismatic leader.
Sounds an awful lot liek a raft or religions..
No, it sounds like some charlatan con artist taking advantage of some
very confused people.
Yes, and unfortunately, he has an audience of people who lived in a
society that suppressed religion for many years ...
It may be factor. Though the USSR wasn't especially suppressive of
religion, you kow. Peopel still attended churches openly etc.
Young Soviet Communists were indoctrinated in their schooling that
belief in God was foolish, but belief in government was wise.
Yet they were never forbidden from attending church, religon wasn't outlawed
etc.
No, but by the end of the line for that "all knowing" Communist
government there, most younger people had lost touch with the church.
There's an old adage that holds true in this case: "Those who believe
in nothing will fall for anything."
Quite obviously these people all believed in something though, so the
adage, cute though it is, holds no water in this case.
They do believe in something -- the wrong thing, because they're not
rooted with a belief in God.
So you think they believed this *because* they didn't believe in god?! As
someone else asked - would an aetheist have fallen for this scam? Really?
I answered that question. This whole discussion has been about one very
strange society, where the word of God was discouraged and the word of
government was the authority for everything. As the article pointed
out, after the fall of the USSR, all sorts of wacky beliefs popped up
over there. Without either an ability to be truly atheist, or without a
knowledge of the actual word of God, some people were easily led astray
by that charlatan.
From the article: [quote] "Most of us do not share those ravings about
resurrection, and we believe that this filthy story was invented to
cast our committee in a bad light," she said by telephone. "We believe
in God. We don't need charlatans. We are past the most painful times,
and we don't want to turn into zombies." [end quote]
You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims.
Or a different charlatan got to them first.. albeit a more benevolent
one.
Just referring to this case -- the woman quoted above is not falling
for the charlatan's claims *because* of her belief in God.
Nowhere does she claim she didn't fall for them *because* she believed in
god..
She said, "We believe in God. We don't need charlatans."
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| User: "Werewolfy" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
26 Sep 2005 11:39:49 AM |
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SD wrote;-
"You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims."
I would have thought that basic common sense would do that, and 'a
strong faith in God', has nothing to do with the 'false claims'. In
fact, belief in God tends more to support the charletan than otherwise.
Werewolfy
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
26 Sep 2005 01:51:03 PM |
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Werewolfy wrote:
SD wrote;-
"You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims."
I would have thought that basic common sense would do that, and 'a
strong faith in God', has nothing to do with the 'false claims'.
Maybe common sense is lacking in a society that indoctrinated its
people to put all their faith in a government that ultimately
collapsed. In this particular case, as the quote I posted from the
article demonstrates, a belief in God prevents the scam from working.
In fact, belief in God tends more to support the charletan than otherwise.
How do you figure that? The charlatan is pulling a ploy that has no
standing in any mainstream religion.
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| User: "Captn sensible" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
26 Sep 2005 12:28:13 PM |
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Steven Douglas wrote:
You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims.
Would an atheist have fallen for a scam like that Steven? Honest answer
please.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
26 Sep 2005 01:58:12 PM |
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Captn sensible wrote:
Steven Douglas wrote:
You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims.
Would an atheist have fallen for a scam like that Steven? Honest answer
please.
A true atheist would not. But most human beings are not true atheists,
and have a hunger for some kind of *faith* in a higher power. It seems
to be innate in human nature, and might explain why true atheists are a
minority in the world's population.
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| User: "Captn sensible" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
26 Sep 2005 03:59:56 PM |
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Steven Douglas wrote:
Captn sensible wrote:
Steven Douglas wrote:
You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims.
I would say it's exactly the opposite. People with a strong faith in
god has automatically demonstrated that they are more capable of
falling for scams than people who are more inclined to need proof.
Would an atheist have fallen for a scam like that Steven? Honest answer
please.
A true atheist would not. But most human beings are not true atheists,
and have a hunger for some kind of *faith* in a higher power. It seems
to be innate in human nature, and might explain why true atheists are a
minority in the world's population.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that many people an innate nature
and hunger to find out the reason for life, the universe and
everything, rather than blindly putting their faith in 'higher powers'?
I agree that atheists are a minority, but I also notice that more and
more people are beginning to question their particular religions
because they see so many blatant contradictions in them.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
27 Sep 2005 12:15:58 AM |
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Captn sensible wrote:
Steven Douglas wrote:
Captn sensible wrote:
Steven Douglas wrote:
You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims.
I would say it's exactly the opposite. People with a strong faith in
god has automatically demonstrated that they are more capable of
falling for scams than people who are more inclined to need proof.
No, people who believe in God know that charlatan is a phoney. The
people who are falling for the scam have some twisted belief in that
charlatan; but, sadly, they seem to be deprived of the actual word of
God.
Would an atheist have fallen for a scam like that Steven? Honest answer
please.
A true atheist would not. But most human beings are not true atheists,
and have a hunger for some kind of *faith* in a higher power. It seems
to be innate in human nature, and might explain why true atheists are a
minority in the world's population.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that many people an innate nature
and hunger to find out the reason for life, the universe and
everything, rather than blindly putting their faith in 'higher powers'?
No, because the majority of human beings believe in a higher power. But
speaking of the reason for life, do you have an idea how everything got
started, and how we (and all life forms) sprang to life on planet
earth?
I agree that atheists are a minority, but I also notice that more and
more people are beginning to question their particular religions
because they see so many blatant contradictions in them.
I have no problem with people questioning their religion. I spent years
questioning the religion I was raised with, but (after much doubt and
searching for answers) I have absolutely no doubt in my faith in God.
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| User: "Captn sensible" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
27 Sep 2005 01:52:41 AM |
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Steven Douglas wrote:
You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims.
I would say it's exactly the opposite. People with a strong faith in
god has automatically demonstrated that they are more capable of
falling for scams than people who are more inclined to need proof.
No, people who believe in God know that charlatan is a phoney.
You cannot know for sure that EVERY person who believes in god wouldn't
fall for this particular charlatan. And what about other religions and
their gods, would they ALL be immune as well? No.
And what about other scams that almost every christian has fallen for,
such as the war on terror scam, and 'god told bush to bomb iraq' scam?
Oh no, it's not to control the oil and for haliburtan to make billions
by 'rebuilding' what was flattened is it?
The
people who are falling for the scam have some twisted belief in that
charlatan; but, sadly, they seem to be deprived of the actual word of
God.
Maybe you don't realise it but that statement is constructed to fool
naive people into beliving that only those who believe in god wouldn't
have fallen for his scam. I don't believe in your god, but I didn't
fall for it either.
Would an atheist have fallen for a scam like that Steven? Honest answer
please.
A true atheist would not. But most human beings are not true atheists,
and have a hunger for some kind of *faith* in a higher power. It seems
to be innate in human nature, and might explain why true atheists are a
minority in the world's population.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that many people an innate nature
and hunger to find out the reason for life, the universe and
everything, rather than blindly putting their faith in 'higher powers'?
No, because the majority of human beings believe in a higher power. But
speaking of the reason for life, do you have an idea how everything got
started, and how we (and all life forms) sprang to life on planet
earth?
I agree that atheists are a minority, but I also notice that more and
more people are beginning to question their particular religions
because they see so many blatant contradictions in them.
I have no problem with people questioning their religion. I spent years
questioning the religion I was raised with, but (after much doubt and
searching for answers) I have absolutely no doubt in my faith in God.
Don't you think that if you've spent years on it and have no doubt in
your faith, then there must be other people brought up in other
religions who have also spent years questioning and have no doubts that
their belief is the correct one? Every religion can't be right, but
they can all be wrong.
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| User: "Captn sensible" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
27 Sep 2005 02:26:19 AM |
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But
speaking of the reason for life, do you have an idea how everything got
started, and how we (and all life forms) sprang to life on planet
earth?
Yes I have, but it doesn't need your biblical idea of god. As science
progresses there may come a time when humans explore other solar
systems, find planets and mess about planting life there from earth and
creating beings by manipulating dna, maybe our own dna. If we could do
it in the far distant future then why couldn't beings from another
planet have found earth, and created humans by messing about with their
dna.
If this is an ongoing senario throughout the universe, and there's no
beginning or end to the universe (big bang may be just a theory) then
there's no need for an all powerfull 'god'.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
27 Sep 2005 12:52:45 PM |
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Captn sensible wrote:
But speaking of the reason for life, do you have an idea how everything
got started, and how we (and all life forms) sprang to life on planet
earth?
Yes I have, but it doesn't need your biblical idea of god. As science
progresses there may come a time when humans explore other solar
systems, find planets and mess about planting life there from earth and
creating beings by manipulating dna, maybe our own dna. If we could do
it in the far distant future then why couldn't beings from another
planet have found earth, and created humans by messing about with their
dna.
There are people who actually believe something like that.
If this is an ongoing senario throughout the universe, and there's no
beginning or end to the universe (big bang may be just a theory) then
there's no need for an all powerfull 'god'.
You are free to draw that conclusion. I have reached a different one.
And as usually happens in discussions of this type, my belief seems to
bother you while your belief (or no belief) does not bother me in the
least.
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| User: "Captn sensible" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
27 Sep 2005 04:20:27 PM |
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Steven Douglas wrote:
Captn sensible wrote:
If this is an ongoing senario throughout the universe, and there's no
beginning or end to the universe (big bang may be just a theory) then
there's no need for an all powerfull 'god'.
You are free to draw that conclusion. I have reached a different one.
And as usually happens in discussions of this type, my belief seems to
bother you while your belief (or no belief) does not bother me in the
least.
Eh? Where'd you get the idea that I'm bothered by your belief from? If
you remember, you asked me if I had an explaination and I gave you a
possible one. Whether it's true or not I don't know, but by saying it
doesn't bother you suggests to me that you've dismissed it as false
without even checking out any evidence. A bit like someone who blindly
dismisses the bible without studying it.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
28 Sep 2005 12:19:18 AM |
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Captn sensible wrote:
Steven Douglas wrote:
Captn sensible wrote:
If this is an ongoing senario throughout the universe, and there's no
beginning or end to the universe (big bang may be just a theory) then
there's no need for an all powerfull 'god'.
You are free to draw that conclusion. I have reached a different one.
And as usually happens in discussions of this type, my belief seems to
bother you while your belief (or no belief) does not bother me in the
least.
Eh? Where'd you get the idea that I'm bothered by your belief from?
Sorry, it was nothing in this post. It was something you said in the
other post, and I should have made that remark over there. But it's a
moot point now, so I hereby withdraw that remark.
If you remember, you asked me if I had an explaination and I gave you
a possible one. Whether it's true or not I don't know, but by saying
it doesn't bother you suggests to me that you've dismissed it as
false without even checking out any evidence. A bit like someone who
blindly dismisses the bible without studying it.
I have considered different possibilities, and after having done that,
the one thing I am sure of is my faith in God -- and I *believe* we
(and all life forms) are His creation.
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| User: "mondo" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
29 Sep 2005 09:34:37 PM |
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You know Steven, I have never seen you demonstrate any sense of humor in
this newsgroup, ever. Do you even know how to laugh?
I conclude that you must not be very bright, because all bright individuals
have a strong sense of humor.
I wish you were able to crack a joke once in a while. I'd like to see how
witty you can be.
mondo
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127884758.104812.327540@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Captn sensible wrote:
Steven Douglas wrote:
Captn sensible wrote:
If this is an ongoing senario throughout the universe, and there's no
beginning or end to the universe (big bang may be just a theory) then
there's no need for an all powerfull 'god'.
You are free to draw that conclusion. I have reached a different one.
And as usually happens in discussions of this type, my belief seems to
bother you while your belief (or no belief) does not bother me in the
least.
Eh? Where'd you get the idea that I'm bothered by your belief from?
Sorry, it was nothing in this post. It was something you said in the
other post, and I should have made that remark over there. But it's a
moot point now, so I hereby withdraw that remark.
If you remember, you asked me if I had an explaination and I gave you
a possible one. Whether it's true or not I don't know, but by saying
it doesn't bother you suggests to me that you've dismissed it as
false without even checking out any evidence. A bit like someone who
blindly dismisses the bible without studying it.
I have considered different possibilities, and after having done that,
the one thing I am sure of is my faith in God -- and I *believe* we
(and all life forms) are His creation.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
27 Sep 2005 12:47:38 PM |
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Captn sensible wrote:
Steven Douglas wrote:
You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims.
I would say it's exactly the opposite. People with a strong faith in
god has automatically demonstrated that they are more capable of
falling for scams than people who are more inclined to need proof.
No, people who believe in God know that charlatan is a phoney.
You cannot know for sure that EVERY person who believes in god wouldn't
fall for this particular charlatan.
Any person who falls for this charlatan does not know the word of God.
And what about other religions and their gods, would they ALL be
immune as well? No.
All the major religions believe in one God. As for those "other
religions" and "gods" -- those seem to be the source of people who
might fall for this scam.
And what about other scams that almost every christian has fallen for,
such as the war on terror scam, and 'god told bush to bomb iraq' scam?
Oh no, it's not to control the oil and for haliburtan to make billions
by 'rebuilding' what was flattened is it?
Oh no. Now I see where you're coming from. You're another of the
politically motivated conspiracy theorists who are already in abundance
on this group. Beyond that, I have no comment on your editorial
opinion, because it has nothing to do with the discussion of that
charlatan in Russia -- which was the basis for my initial remarks in
this thread. >
The people who are falling for the scam have some twisted belief
in that charlatan; but, sadly, they seem to be deprived of the
actual word of God.
Maybe you don't realise it but that statement is constructed to fool
naive people into beliving that only those who believe in god wouldn't
have fallen for his scam. I don't believe in your god, but I didn't
fall for it either.
I already acknowledged that a true atheist would not fall for the scam,
so why did you feel it necessary to infer something from my words that
I neither stated nor implied? > > > > >
Would an atheist have fallen for a scam like that Steven? Honest answer
please.
A true atheist would not. But most human beings are not true atheists,
and have a hunger for some kind of *faith* in a higher power. It seems
to be innate in human nature, and might explain why true atheists are a
minority in the world's population.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that many people an innate nature
and hunger to find out the reason for life, the universe and
everything, rather than blindly putting their faith in 'higher powers'?
No, because the majority of human beings believe in a higher power. But
speaking of the reason for life, do you have an idea how everything got
started, and how we (and all life forms) sprang to life on planet
earth?
I agree that atheists are a minority, but I also notice that more and
more people are beginning to question their particular religions
because they see so many blatant contradictions in them.
I have no problem with people questioning their religion. I spent years
questioning the religion I was raised with, but (after much doubt and
searching for answers) I have absolutely no doubt in my faith in God.
Don't you think that if you've spent years on it and have no doubt in
your faith, then there must be other people brought up in other
religions who have also spent years questioning and have no doubts that
their belief is the correct one? Every religion can't be right, but
they can all be wrong.
I said I have no doubt in my *faith* in God. That has nothing to do
with whether or not every religion is right or wrong. The bottom line
is, I have no doubt in my *faith* in God. And you have *free will* to
believe whatever you choose.
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| User: "Captn sensible" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
27 Sep 2005 04:48:38 PM |
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Steven Douglas wrote:
Captn sensible wrote:
Steven Douglas wrote:
You see, a strong faith in God actually precludes people from falling
for the charlatan's false claims.
I would say it's exactly the opposite. People with a strong faith in
god has automatically demonstrated that they are more capable of
falling for scams than people who are more inclined to need proof.
No, people who believe in God know that charlatan is a phoney.
You cannot know for sure that EVERY person who believes in god wouldn't
fall for this particular charlatan.
Any person who falls for this charlatan does not know the word of God.
Ah, It's finally sunk in what you mean. Thanks.
And what about other religions and their gods, would they ALL be
immune as well? No.
All the major religions believe in one God. As for those "other
religions" and "gods" -- those seem to be the source of people who
might fall for this scam.
If all major religions believe in the same god, what does the phrase
"my god is better than your god" mean?
And what about other scams that almost every christian has fallen for,
such as the war on terror scam, and 'god told bush to bomb iraq' scam?
Oh no, it's not to control the oil and for haliburtan to make billions
by 'rebuilding' what was flattened is it?
Oh no. Now I see where you're coming from. You're another of the
politically motivated conspiracy theorists who are already in abundance
on this group. Beyond that, I have no comment on your editorial
opinion, because it has nothing to do with the discussion of that
charlatan in Russia -- which was the basis for my initial remarks in
this thread.
Beieve it or not conspiicies exist. Isn't there at least one in the
bible? What about the one to get Jesus arrested?
The people who are falling for the scam have some twisted belief
in that charlatan; but, sadly, they seem to be deprived of the
actual word of God.
Maybe you don't realise it but that statement is constructed to fool
naive people into beliving that only those who believe in god wouldn't
have fallen for his scam. I don't believe in your god, but I didn't
fall for it either.
I already acknowledged that a true atheist would not fall for the scam,
so why did you feel it necessary to infer something from my words that
I neither stated nor implied? > > > > >
Because my thinking cap had slipped. My mistake steven, sorry.
I said I have no doubt in my *faith* in God. That has nothing to do
with whether or not every religion is right or wrong. The bottom line
is, I have no doubt in my *faith* in God. And you have *free will* to
believe whatever you choose.
True.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
28 Sep 2005 12:32:08 AM |
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Captn sensible wrote:
Steven Douglas wrote:
<snip>
All the major religions believe in one God. As for those "other
religions" and "gods" -- those seem to be the source of people who
might fall for this scam.
If all major religions believe in the same god, what does the phrase
"my god is better than your god" mean?
I don't know. I'm not sure who uses that phrase, but whoever they are,
they don't know what they're talking about.
And what about other scams that almost every christian has fallen for,
such as the war on terror scam, and 'god told bush to bomb iraq' scam?
Oh no, it's not to control the oil and for haliburtan to make billions
by 'rebuilding' what was flattened is it?
Oh no. Now I see where you're coming from. You're another of the
politically motivated conspiracy theorists who are already in abundance
on this group. Beyond that, I have no comment on your editorial
opinion, because it has nothing to do with the discussion of that
charlatan in Russia -- which was the basis for my initial remarks in
this thread.
Beieve it or not conspiicies exist. Isn't there at least one in the
bible? What about the one to get Jesus arrested?
Yes, but conspiracies are usually exposed because human beings cannot
keep a secret. So when the Haliburton conspiracy is actually exposed,
and is no longer just a left wing conspiracy theory, I'll believe it.
<snip>
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| User: "Werewolfy" |
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| Title: Re: Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children |
24 Sep 2005 05:30:36 PM |
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Doc wrote;-
"Cult Promises to Resurrect Beslan Children "
Great story Doc...Again, you find the oddest things. It shows how
'hope' can overcome even the most scepical.
It's quite 'Ugh' though.... Thanks.
Ricky
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